♪ emily: welcome to bloomberg technology. i am emily chang in san francisco. stocks rebound despite another round of dismal jobs numbers. 3 million more people filing for unemployment, bringing the total number of jobless claims filed in eight weeks to 36 point million -- 3.6 million. on a climate could be around 25%, the same level during the

great depression. shares of u.s. bank stocks looking very weak compared to tech stocks which have been guiyang the -- which have been buoying the rally. what an incredible rally, the huge losses on the back of jobs numbers which we are getting too used to. taylor: it was incredible, looking at some big losses and in the final hours or so, managing to reverse that and post some of the gains. the only sense of caution is tech is not leading the gains. tech for one of the first few times has been the underperformer. on the downside in the last two days. the good news is it was not leading the losses. you have microsoft, facebook, being held in a meaningful way. when they are not leading the

game on days like this when you would expect to see outperformance, that has people cautious about really the strength of the rally. quickly, saidere if someone was not watching the stocks already, you should be. if you want to believe in the strength of the rally, you have to see the big companies start to be the big out performers. bigy: let's talk about the tech moller-maersk -- the big tech movers. netflix has been one of the pandemic winners so far. now we are seeing content that may have been wayward at this time flying into the hands of netflix. it is buying up stuff that has not been released yet. talked a lotve not about analyst actions recently. ratinglix has a new buy

from jeffries for the race the target of $520 a share. the total adjustable market is underappreciated and the company has significant runway for continued double-digit subscriber growth and margins are improving. while there is choppiness in the stock in the near term, they are advising clients to get into stock if you are a long-term buyer. this is one of the by risk stocks, managing to prove its resiliency and that is what is reflected in analyst action. cells.ght holds and six -- sells. emily: talk about the market action over the course of the week. we were anticipating jobs numbers, we heard from the president we are not expecting, or he is not expecting to pass new stimulus measures, but there are warnings from the fed. how do we expect to go into

tomorrow? taylor: all of the action has come off of the virus and then the claims like this morning. you mentioned at the beginning of the program goldman sachs coming out with another unemployment report saying joblessness could be 25%. the jobless claims remained in the millions for the eighth straight week. above the 2.5 million that was expected. the only the sad stories that there is a person behind every one of those claims but it translates into the unemployment rates we are likely to get. neel kashkari at the minneapolis fed said it is likely to be 25% and 14% number from april is hiding a lot of the underlying issues, hiding the fact this on implement rate should be higher. goldman sachs revising their

forecast higher as well. no longer do they think 15% is the peak. 25% is the peak, that his depression era like numbers -- that is depression era like numbers. sayingsecretary powell not just the on employment but how long it will last. when you have long gaps in unemployment in your career, it can leave long-term career damage. thank you for breaking it down for us. i want to dig into the jobless numbers now with tom thibodeau. usnk you so much for joining . talk to us about how these numbers break down. in the tech market specifically there have been huge layoffs at airbnb, lift. -- lyft. do we know how unemployment is holding up in the tech industry? >> cyclically when we have these

layoffs, they tend to lay off the people who are in sales and marketing operations, finance. they keep the brains of the operations, the tech capable people on the staff, people responsible for uber -- user maintenance, the different cybersecurity fields. nobody wants to lose those people during these types of downturns. they are trimming in other ways. airbnb, which is primarily a sales marketing organization, is laying off in big numbers. we will likely see continued laying off, but they are not getting rid of the court technical -- the core technical brains of the operation. emily: what do you see over the next behemoths? - next few months? goldman sachs is putting it in the ballpark with a great depression. >> these numbers are crazy, the

jobless claims we continue to see and you talked about unemployment insurance and what will happen when the supplements begin to expire as part of the original stimulus package. there will not be as much of an incentive. companies will be sending people off of payrolls in places where they may not be getting as much as they were as the current stimulus plan provides for very with states loosening up, we saw discussions about whether we will not see this v come back but a switch -- this swoosh. comeyees could immediately back into these businesses, minimized by the slow rebound in these areas. it will be interesting in the states which are opening quickly to see how business happens in that area and how business reacts to people. we are likely to see the 25% number could linger for a few

months. it is not like they will all go back to work. in the tech sector, the skilled tech employee has been integral to keeping the economy going. all of the people that have transitioned to remote, they need cybersecurity specialists and people managing the cloud environment. if you are a tech worker, you are going to be in a good position. retail, food, it will be tough. emily: what is interesting about these numbers, you have got as many jobless claims filed in the last eight weeks as were filed in 18 months during the financial crisis, so you wonder how long this goes on for amber how deep and pronounced these numbers get. we were -- goes on for and how deep and pronounced these numbers get. next february or march the real

impact could be felt. right now you still have people spending money and feeling optimistic and not knowing exactly how long this is going to last. i wonder how long do you think such announced on employment the last and how deep does it get? >> would you have been hearing and what we have been hearing is likely to be the case, something that stretches into next year before those people get back. will the holiday hiring season be anything close to what it has been? that is a lot of people who are in and out of the job market during the holiday hiring season, but what will that look like? if that is minimized, you'll see the high jobless numbers and unemployment rate stretch into next year. one of the other things, companies for the short-term are allowing customers to reduce

payments or to push payments into later parts of the year. if things don't materialize, and the ability to pay bills comes due, that is a big variable. a lot of companies are allowing customers to punt on the due invoices. but if those don't get paid, the dollars will not be there to pay people. we did an anecdotal survey and we are getting shipping, reducing contractors, but these are stopgap measures. unless things turn around, those measures turn into long-term permanent measures. emily: thanks so much for giving us your sobering analysis. tom thibodeau of calm -- say goodbye to earnings season? that could come to pass. this is bloomberg. ♪

authorsilicon valley eric read is looking to move away from so-called quarterly capitalism and get companies to focus on the long-term with a new venture called the long-term stock exchange. he joins us now with our bloomberg reporter. we know the best from your hit look, the lead start up. now you have a new book taking on well entrenched exchanges like the new york stock exchange and the nasdaq. when do you expect this to kick off and is the middle of a

pandemic the right time? >> thank you very much. if it was not for the pandemic, we would have been online with our trading platform. i have been with this project coming up on 10 years. sec toapproval from the be in operation. things were looking like that would happen around this time except for the pandemic. with financial markets the way they are at and with the stress and pressure, both the member banks and the regulators, we did not feel like it was safe to have people trying to launch the exchange now. we are in a holding pattern. the good news is we put long term into the name of the company so everyone knows to be patient. >> we have a lot of these companies across america that when they are thinking of their stakeholders, there are a lot of

layoffs. employees are a major stakeholder. how long are employees going to think about the long-term while they are focused on short-term margin pressure here? >> it is interesting timing because that conversation about stakeholders was just starting to take off area when we are in the boom time -- starting to take off area when we are in the boom times, it is easy to have conversations about stakeholders. it is important to note having employees as a stakeholder doesn't mean you will never do layoffs. these are still businesses. providing secure employment and running a sustainable business is part of their obligation. when you are under that pressure, do you treat people with compassion and respect, and are you cut the very things which will enable you to finance the recovery when it does come? i am keeping a close eye on the

company's that are cutting -- companies that are cutting. what kind of power -- firepower do they have, because the margins are so compressed, do they have any money to think about longer-term plans, stakeholders, environment things around them that are not just as shareholders? >> this is the time to reaffirm people come first and not have it the an empty mantra. the reason it matters, and this goes to deming in the 20th century, your employees and customers, how you treat them in a crisis is something they will remember for the rest of their lives. companies that feel they can use this opportunity to squeeze the cut cost, maybe they can get away with it. everyone is distracted with

covid, etc. people are going to remember and it will not be long from now when we will be competing for talent again and brand reputation will matter and we will try to grow the margins and share our customer wallets. the moments are coming not long from now and the way we treat people will set us up with the recovery comes area >> months ago -- recovery comes. >> months ago we were flying high and there was money in corporate -- in silicon valley. a lot of corporate governance issues came up. looking at silicon valley now, has that behavior reigned in now the investing environment has changed? >> it has not been as dramatic as you might think. it is important to see the government -- governance actions as a reaction to an extreme

problem. founders of these companies are looking for a way to preserve their culture and ability to think long-term while accessing public markets. the solutions for the past, i view as binary. one stakeholder roles over the other. the idea here was to try to paint a better round, a better more principled ground. some companies did not want to do that because it sets them up to be partners with investors over the life of their company. >> you have been telling companies to stay lean, with your book "the lean startup." now huge chunks of startups are disappearing. lyft is laying off 17%. you're seeing companies get leaner than ever and i wonder if you would advise them to stay that way over the long-term and not invest too much in the

future when they have so much uncertainty ahead. lean startup was born in the last financial crisis, what we called the great recession. in those years people used to ask me for advice about how to figure out the level of spending that would make sense. when your investors fresh you -- pressure you to give back and founders and executives a thousand -- what is the right level of spending. i would say in good times and bad, we want to invest in those rings that allow us to react with agility, to learn what customers want, to be scientific and responsive to customer needs. if you follow that pattern, you are building a more resilient company, and you don't have to

predict the future with accuracy because you are able to respond. you now a lot of regret about having hired folks in a rigid, planning based way that was not true to their start up roots and i hope founders use this opportunity to reset and have a more lean and agile culture where they come through the other side. , will beic ries watching to see when you get the new stock exchange off the ground. thank you, both. the tables have turned. in the midst of the pandemic, movies that were originally slated for prime time, going straight into the arms of netflix. we will discuss that coming up. this is bloomberg. ♪

emily: netflix is said to have purchased the movie "bad trip" from mgm. it was going to come out in theaters but now, going straight into the arms of netflix. we have got lucas shaw, our reporter who covers entertainment. what do we know? >> you have two competing events, a bunch of movie studios who don't know when they will be able to release their movies in theaters. mgm has this movie that was in march.o be at sxsw it is starring a popular comedian. it is not a big enough movie, but they could use in fusion of cash. they start to shop it. then you have streaming services like never eggs and amazon -- like netflix and amazon that are

hungry for big names so they will pay mgm enough money they make a profit and are comfortable letting it know. emily: i am excited about this one. we have got hamilton fans excited about the new hamilton movie hitting disney plus in july. this is a year earlier than it was supposed to be. how did that happen? >> another situation of a company trying to adapt to how coronavirus has affected their business. disney plus is unable to produce any new shows. disney was banking on having marble shows be the anchor tenants in the fall. they take a movie in hamilton which has old in audience and a lot of people like myself who have not had a chance to see it, they can use that later this year to keep people engaged on

disney bus and make sure people don't drop off. -- disney plus and make sure people don't drop off. a theatricalo have release, but now it will be a streaming movie. if you are aer content creator if you are devastated, or if you are excited, all of us being shut in and limited options means we are discovering new things that maybe would not have broken out if they were competing in a sort of normal environment. if that will lead to sort of new talent and creative discoveries. >> that is what a lot of these streaming services are banking on, people will go back and rewatch old shows because they are tired of the new thing or they can't find something new. as far as the talent goes, they

are having asked emotions. they can't create in the way they would like to. they cannot film a tv show or movie, but it does give them an opportunity to try a new format and to tout their old work. you are seeing all sorts of podcasts and creations around old shows. a captivetainly audience. lucas shaw, thank you as always for tuning in. 100 million doses of a covid-19 vaccine by the end of the year. is that possible? we will hear from president and -- novavax. they will give us the progress. this is bloomberg. ♪ w?w?uhió'ñó

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and a team of experts - here for you 24/7. we've always believed in the power of working together. that's why, when every connection counts... you can count on us. like -- welcome back. the race to create a covid-19 vaccine. there are at least 100 different vaccine candidates in progress, including from novavax which just received $388 million in funding from the covid epidemic preparedness innovation, the largest ever such grant from this group. joining us, the president of research and development at novavax. you presented your progress this

week. how much progress have you made? >> first of all, this validation of our technology is really wonderful. it is so enabling. progress of the race, we see it as a race for a pathogen. we are racing against the virus. this is very enabling for us. are doingss, we multiple things in parallel. us to get into manufacturing in a big way. we want to deliver millions of doses. we think we can deliver 100 million doses by the end of the year and more than a billion doses next year. great witht is so our partner. they enable us financially to

get into contracts with very large manufacturers. that's important. a lot of doses needed. we can now make a lot of doses. emily: you have worked on vaccines for three decades, so you know the reality of how long this can take. how long before a vaccine is broadly available in the united states and then globally? thehat the fall, the end of year, spring, or longer? gregory: it is looking like it is accelerating. it usually takes a decade. we were hoping maybe 18 months, but the signs i'm seeing from the funders, from the regulators and policymakers is they are looking for something much sooner. right now, i think it is possible that these vaccines could be deployed before the end of the year. that is going to depend a lot on

the fda, the data we have. i think what we brought to the table is a mature technology. it is not licensed, but there is a lot of experience with humans, with manufacturing it. we know the safety profile pretty well. we are confident about the data we have that i updated this week that will predict the human trial outcomes. and so we need to generate enough data to be assuring, but this is such a big problem that you kind of do the calculation, on thek-benefit, i think whole, it is possible to imagine deploying these vaccines by the end of the year. that would be revolutionary, so it is so important. compromise on to safety. we are giving vaccines to healthy people, but the outcome of covid is so bad, not just the

mortality and the hospitalization, but the suffering. my daughter works in a hospital as a labor and delivery nurse. they got called into the ward. people are alone, dying, trying to breathe. that inefit to prevent think will drive a lot of decisions made to accelerate. i am optimistic that it could be this year. emily: there is so much demand. expect to getax treated with this vaccine first? gregory: we are trying to be global. we have a global view. the u.s. is important to us. in the u.s., they will roll it out to people who are in the front lines, the first

responders, the nurses. those are the ones that really need to be protected. after that, it is the at risk population, the people who have comorbidities, lung disease, heart disease, diabetes. they are the ones who are having really bad outcomes. groups,ook at the age very little in pediatrics, 18 to 40. as you go up in age, there are more and more cases of covid hospitalization, but in each one of those subgroups, the people with comorbidities are the ones suffering. that would be the population you would target. rolling that out -- emily: the ceo of the french pharmaceutical company seen a veto told bloomberg that if they develop a vaccine, the u.s. would get it first because the u.s. funded their research first and set off a global firestorm.

now you've got global leaders signing this open letter, calling for a people's vaccine. who owns the rights to a vaccine, and should free market dynamics guide the distribution or not? gregory: this is probably not my full expertise, but it is an interface between public and private needs. it is a long history. i don't see that there will be a giant conflict. there has been a long history of vaccine makers in the u.s. interacting with public health authorities. fund, case of flu, they they recommend, the cdc evaluates that, and the companies distribute it. what might be effective here is to employ a mass vaccination. haveoal is to manufacturing. we have a technology that can be

transferred -- it does not take anything away from what you can do in the u.s. we have a clone that can be sent to europe, for example. we have plans that european, asian, and u.s. manufacturers, and in each setting, that vaccine can supply sufficient doses for that population. i think we want to cooperate with the u.s. government, with their needs. they have a number of irons in the fire. we would like to be a part of that solution. i am not sure there will be a conflict. our partner has a global outlook. we can put out the campfires around the world by spreading out the manufacturing. one reason we got funded is we

have a high-yield process. we can make a lot of doses quickly, and that is our goal. we want to be a part of the global solution. emily: i hear your optimism, and you are on the front lines and no some much more about this than the rest of us, but if history gives us any indication, the fact that a vaccine has ever been developed is -- fastest a vaccine has ever been developed is four years. scientists have tried to come up with an hiv vaccine for decades and it has not happened. this disease is very different, but what are the chances we can't develop a vaccine in the near-term or even in the next two years? is there a risk of that, because there is so much we don't know about this disease? gregory: it is a respiratory virus. we know a lot about how it infects people. we know that in other settings how they makeses,

a good vaccine. i think we will tap into a long history of making a good vaccine. think all the learnings about some of the related pathogens, like mers and sars, influenza, other viruses, we know that there are products that are immunologically based immunization that can block these infections. mechanisms bye which it is infected. there is every reason to think that clinical experience is going to be applicable here. i think we have a very good chance of having a vaccine that can be highly protective. emily: there is a lot of competition here. oderna got m getting ready to go into phase two of their clinical trials. what do you see in the next two months of getting to where you want to go and the possible bottlenecks that could slow this

down? ongory: for us, execution clinical trials, we are enrolling in our clinical trial now. steps that would have to be taken, it would be an assessment of the immune response, providing that information to other regulators. that is a well trodden path way us execution-wise. the other thing we are working on, to our earlier discussion, we need to scale this up. we are working on that in many places in parallel to get this -- get the facilities to make a lot of doses of vaccines. anything can go wrong about pathway. smooth,it has been but -- and i expect it to continue. this is a territory we know very well. pivotalunblinded a better flu vaccine in march.

to a closely related respiratory virus. it is a nano particle, so the formulation is very similar i think it is execution, time, and what is so big about this week for us is we needed the funds, and these funds are really enabling funding events we have. we now have the people, the facilities. we can tackle this problem. we are grateful for the funding to do that now. need somehink we all good news, and that is about as optimistic as i have heard about what is going on in the race for this vaccine. so gregory glenn, thank you much for taking the time with us today. gregory: thank you so much. emily: coming up, states are demanding answers from amazon, but will they get stonewalled by the e-commerce giant? amazon has already told the government that the number of

people infected by covid-19 at its warehouses is not particularly useful, while attorneys general beg to disagree. we will talk to the attorney general of massachusetts next. ♪

more than a dozen attorneys general have asked amazon to strengthen work or protection -- worker protection in the midst of the pandemic. they are also asking amazon by his -- asking amazon for a state-by-state background of those who have been infected and died. we spoke with massachusetts attorney general maura healey about who is going to lead this

coalition and what exactly they want. maura: this is about public health. some of the reports we have amazon and other facilities have unsafe working conditions. we have also heard about delayed reporting. we've got to keep the workers safe, but we've also got to keep the customers safe. we need data and transparency, and that's why we are asking for it. emily: a top amazon executive has said that although they have this information, it is not particularly is full and they have refused to provide -- particularly useful and they have refused to provide it. maura: that's ridiculous. it is totally useful. this is all about data right now. information is power, and it will help us get resources where they need to be, and it will also help to stem the spread of the virus in places. information is power, and everybody should be providing

it. emily: you have asked amazon for written responses on how they are protecting workers. meantime, there are infected workers still going to work. could government agencies force amazon to shut down facilities, and what type of red flag would precipitate that action? gregory: we have heard about -- maura: we have heard about a lack of ppe for workers and a lack of controls like social distancing. i believe my office can have a role, and that is why we have gone after amazon and whole foods. i also believe the federal government, through osha, has a role. this is serious. what i am looking for, though, is for amazon to step up and agree to these things. to these things. agree right now to provide ppe and social distancing.

agree to notify the public when this happens, and finally, agree that they are not going to retaliate against any worker who raises an alarm. unfortunately, we have seen reports of that where workers have complained, and they have been fired, terminated. that is wrong. it is also against the law. we want to make sure these workers have access to unpaid leave during the duration of the crisis. we don't need people forced to go to work. we need to make sure we are doing everything we can to protect workers as well as customers. emily: amazon has told us they are doing everything they can to protect workers' safety. why just amazon? walmart, target are not releasing these numbers. why should we focus on amazon? ms. healey: i am just going off the complaint we have received. it is certainly the case that amazon has done more in response to an earlier letter be sent to them asking them to adhere to

state paid sick time laws. but amazon could do even more. areon, whole foods, these businesses that stand to make boatloads of money through this pandemic. you look at the amount going through amazon distribution facilities. we are asking them to use their resources to make sure they are doing all that they can to protect their workers and public health. it upl certainly take with anyone else out there who is engaged in behavior or conduct that is not where it needs to be at the time. emily: you mentioned contact tracing. i wonder how concerned you are about contact tracing and privacy issues, or if you think those issues take a backseat to a public health crisis. ms. healey: i think it is probably true that we've got to prioritize public health. i understand that there are real privacy concerns, but i think that we can find a way to privacy, tole's

confine it to those in public health who need access to that. it is in the interest of public health. these are unusual times. they call for unusual but immediate measures. i think there is a way for both of us -- by way for us to do both. massachusetts, like many states, has tension between people who think it is not safe to reopen and people who think the time to reopen is long past. where do you stand? ms. healey: i think everyone is anxious to get back to work to see stores open, to get back outside, but we've got to be careful here. massachusetts has the fourth highest rate of infection in the country, third highest number of deaths. we got to be careful of how we do this, because when we reopen, inevitably we are going to see more infections. it is about controlling the rate of infection. we don't have a vaccine.

we don't currently have a treatment. we've got to make smart, strategic decisions. it requires patience. there is a huge economic issue right now with a lot of people unable to work, businesses not able to be open. we've got to be careful. emily: you are also investigating cybercrimes tied to covid. what are you seeing? ms. healey: some outrageous behavior. the federal stimulus money, we saw people go online, send texts to people, pretending to be with the federal government, offering checks and money for a fee, or using it as a way to get people's financial or personal information. we saw a lot of scams around fake coronavirus vaccines or treatments. and we have seen price gouging, outrageous prices for any number of items, some related to sanitizers and masks, some of it related to things like toilet paper. unfortunately, within a crisis,

we will see that used as a way to exploit honorable people. we have made a concerted effort in my office to shut that down. emily: amazon and ebay are some of the companies trying to find price gouging. what more can your office do to get this over control? ms. healey: a group of us states reach out to the platforms, amazon, craigslist, ebay, and asked them to partner with us in monitoring for scams, monitoring for price gouging. we are going to need that. and the public should continue reporting things to my office so we can take quick action when we become aware of these issues. emily: going back to amazon and the state of big tech, on a related note, various states and the federal government have been looking into the power of big tech companies. from what you have seen so far, do you believe that big tech companies like amazon, like

facebook, do you think companies need to be broken up? ms. healey: i think that they need to be carefully looked at, and i think there need to be some real policy changes and regulatory changes adopted for these platforms. the fact of the matter, these platforms really control the world. they control our communication flow, our access to financial services, to health care, to online learning. they have an incredibly powerful and important role to play in our economy and frankly all aspects of our lives. with that comes a responsibility. there are responsibilities around data protection and privacy and the misuse of information. andave already taken action investigated companies like facebook for what they did with our data. my view is the platforms need to be willingly entering into a new understanding of what it means to be a player in this market.

seerwise, they are going to significant regulatory action coming their way. emily: your office has been involved in actions with facebook, including their record $5 billion settlement with the ftc. how forthcoming and cooperative has facebook been in working with you? been.aley: they haven't we have taken them to court and we won. they were ordered by a court recently to turn over documents. historically, companies have not welcomed government intervention. they would like to remain apart. but frankly, facebook has operated with an arrogance and, in some instances, incompetence. it has hurt a lot of people. it has put a lot of things at risk. i call on mark zuckerberg and the leadership at facebook to step up, step forward, recognize

the role they play, recognize the responsibility they bear, and do the right thing here, for the sake of our economy, for the sake of our country. emily: would you say the same thing to jeff bezos? we have seen amazon executives out front, but we have seen less of jeff bezos personally. do we need to hear from the ceo? ms. healey: my office has been in touch with amazon, and i have already called out amazon with some of the problems we are seeing. stepnk everybody needs to forward here, and certainly our tech ceos have a major role to play. operated in aave space where they have been forced to -- they wield tremendous power. i call on all of them to recognize the times they are in, to recognize that no government actor alone is going to be able to solve the problems of today.

we need collaboration and need to be able to work with the business community in a healthy, positive way. emily: i am curious on the question of how challenging it has been for your office to pursue, these concerns, given that we are in the middle of a pandemic. you are at home right now. forced to -- they wield tremendous power. your employees are sheltering in place. your employees are sheltering in place. how challenging has it been to pursue your concerns, and it might -- and might it be best to settle with companies simply because -- ms. healey: we will never go back to working the way we used to to work, and i think that would be for the good. right now i am focused on food and security, unemployment, devastation to our small businesses, and flattening the curve so that our hospitals are not overburdened. these are the pressing issues of the day. now is not the time to fold.

now is the time to make sure we are getting what we need and that those who need to be held accountable, covid or non-covid related, we are going to continue to do our job as state ag's. emily: massachusetts attorney general maura healey. meantime, has we have discussed u.s. jobless claims soaring once again, 3 million more people filing for unemployment this week, bringing the total number of jobless claims in the last million.ks to 36.5 experts now say on employment could peak around 25%, which would make it as high as it was during the great depression. meantime, some headlines that have been rolling in, the new york stock exchange has announced it is planning to reopen its trading floor partially on may 26. it will be operating with a reduced headcount. it will reopen partially on may 26.

stay tuned for bloomberg daybreak: australia. that starts next. that's it for this edition of "bloomberg technology." ♪

haidi: good morning. welcome to "daybreak australia." amid concernebound about bleak economic data and rising trade tensions. global virus cases approaching 4.5 million, with deaths above 300,000. u.s. infections rise more than expected.