♪ "bloombergome to technology." apple holds its first-ever virtual worldwide developer conference, updates across the iphone, ipad, mac, and apple watch. controversy and antitrust thated the of the 30% cut apple takes from the app store. we will speak to the maker of the pump -- of the popular email

app at the center of the storm. meantime, travel as we knew it is over according to airbnb ceo brian chesky. he sat down with us for a wide-ranging and rare interview. to worldd the pandemic war ii. tankdid teens on tictoc attendance at president trump's rally in oklahoma over the weekend. andrew yang will join us to talk about that and the future of the biden and drum campaigns, plus his latest initiative to get tech companies like facebook and google to pay you for your data. first, a check of the markets. stocks rising despite concerns about a resurgence of the virus in different parts of the country. walk us through the day. >> you had all three major averages closing higher by 0.6% or more. seems to be- there

consensus that the virus is nowhere near over but there also seems to be consensus that it will not entirely derail the recovery we are seeing. small caps also were up by about 0.5% -- excuse me, 1%. they have been really kind of a proxy for the recovery story, given that they are more domestically focused. you did see, for example, the safe haven asset of gold back up near a seven-year high. it is not all in on equities. you are still seeing protective options near the surface. more of a defensive sector in particular in that it was technology really leading the gains today. make cap tech heavyweights were leading the charge. the nasdaq composite index closed at a fresh record high. the best winning streak in all of 2020 already.

zoom, stocks like netflix, pellet gun, companies that have been in a fitting from the work from home trend. why the new momentum today? >> investors don't think that the economic recovery will be derailed but maybe people will not be too eager to venture back into office world, zoom, pelletflix, gun. all three of those stocks closed at record highs today. --emily: apple shares ending the day up. big announcement that they are moving from intel to apple chips. how did investors view the changes that apple made today? kailey: the stock ended at a

record high, up nearly 3% despite the fact that there was a little overhang. the apps were getting regulatory scrutiny in the u.s. as well as in europe. investors seemed to be focused more on things they liked hearing, perhaps those processing chips upgrades to ios exciting them, plus the fact that big tech was rallying in a big way. microsoft, amazon, they hit fresh record highs. above $1ns well trillion. $1.55s valuation is now trillion. emily: kailey leinz, thanks so much. we will be speaking with one of those developers who was pushing back the base camp email. meantime, sticking with apple, dramatic changes to the home

screen of the iphone since it was a veiled into thousand seven. tim cook also starting to be wdc on a more somber note, talking about racism and social injustice. i want to discuss the topic of racism, inequality, and injustice, and recognize the pain being felt across our nation after the senseless killing of george floyd. while the events of the past month are sadly not new, they have caused us to face long-standing inequalities and social justice -- social injustices. a new apple announcing development conference for black developers and they have committed millions of dollars to fighting racial injustice. to talk about the other things apple unveiled today, i want to bring in julie forrester, principal analyst. good to have you back with us.

is this big a deal change? apple moving away from intel chips, moving into its own chips. what does that mean for the overall ecosystem? >> it gives them more control over the product, services, experience and to end. that capability and talents that, why not control more of the product? it gives them more flexibility. developers however need to be on board. developers are going to have to make fresh apps that will work across all apple devices. what has been your take on the pushback about this 30% cut that apple has taken from the products and services sold via the platform. do you think that right now there is something different

happening? >> i think there is something different happening on at least two dimensions. on one hand, the sale of a one-time game or one time app, $1.99 is one scenario. i think where you probably see this tension is where you are selling a subscription, service, content, and that feels like a better cut. then i think if you look into the future, as more banks, education, health care providers begin to provide services over this platform like telemedicine, it becomes more worrisome to those in the future thinking, am i going to give 30% of my revenue to apple. do you think apple is in

any way losing ground here? i think the argument from developers is that in some ways it is consistent but in other ways, depending on the interpretation, a way that apple has enforce these rules is actually inconsistent? >> there is a lot of nuances in here. just saying,ck everything sold through the app store, the same rules applied to everything. there are really differences here. in some cases, apple is enabling an economy or ecosystem that would not exist without them. in other situations, there is simply a platform, it is more of a distribution channel and more ofa commerce or marketplace third parties. when we think about the times right now, the growth

a using mobile ads to use as platform is going to be ever more important. sorting out the commercialization of this, the business role, certainly more than in the past. pursuinge eu is now two antitrust investigations into apple app store as well as apple pay practices. apple has called these investigations disappointing, saying they are advancing baseless complaints from a handful of companies that want a free ride. that apple wants to maintain an equal playing field. how big a risk do you think this antitrust scrutiny is from the eu and also the united states? >> i think it is very important for apple to triumph here.

when you go back in history, the companies that knelt out a wire -- that built out a wirelesswher broadband infrastructure, they have not benefited in the same way as facebook, apple. the devices of the platforms become commoditized and they are left out of the upside and value that it generates. emily: what is your take on some of the other software updates that were unveiled today? a handwashing monitor for the apple watch? the ability to use the iphone as a khaki. those -- as a car key. bradley, you are seeing pretty dramatic changes to the overall

look and feel of the software. julie: sorry, -- emily: can you hear me? julie: yes, i can. emily: just one last question. i asked just your take on the overall software updates and how dramatic they were today. julie: i think they are very demandtec -- very dramatic and they show the design shops. if we look at what consumers are looking for as well as enterprises, they are certainly looking for more seamless experiences across the devices. i think more importantly and perhaps more subtle, their use of context to make these services more relevant to me, whether it is the content i want, the activity bars at the end of the day, the news at the

beginning of the day. it was always known that mobile experiences in the future, or the interface would become more conceptual, acting on my behalf and doing it for me. apple did a really good job today of balancing, we are using a lot more context and information that we have about you to simplify experiences but on the other hand, here are all the things we are doing to protect your privacy. i think it is a big step forward in terms of the experience and intuitive it will be. it is so easy to use, ages works, but there is a lot of engineering that goes into that. toly: julie ask, always good have your thoughts on the show. thank you so much. coming up, we will be talking about some of these developer

issues a bit further. will be speaking of the -- speaking to the cofounder and ceo of base camp, the email app that the app store rejected, but has since approved given some fixes. we will speak to the ceo, next. later this hour, our founder with the airbnb ceo. he takes us into the darkest hours and how the company moves forward. this is bloomberg. ♪ >> i want a little more data. we are still a little early in this crisis for me to be clear on how this is going to play out.

apple kicked off wwdc

amidst a backlash in developers, angry about the 30% cut that apple takes in the app store. rejected aapple popular email app from the store. it's cofounder accusing apple of a shake down. of base camp,cto the maker of that app, david hannah meyer hansen -- david heinemeier hansson, joins us now. you have come into the weekend in a standoff with apple but they have approved at least one version of the app. how did that happen? david: i sent out a couple of tweets late friday afternoon. friday night company sent us a note back on the app store saying, we read your tweet, we are allowing it to be released,

workingook forward to with you. we were excited that it was being released but apple made it apple,hat -- the vpn responsible for the -- the vp at apple's comments to the press about how we could get an approval to the app store. we made those changes over the weekend. thoseorning, we made changes for approval. the update, with ads -- which adds a free service to the app, so people can download the app and immediately use it for something, as well as an acceleration of our product, an extension of the same app. that is now pending approval. it has been in review this morning. looking forward to hopefully

getting that approval. again, all the power is in apple's hands. they can decide to essentially send us back to square one. emily: a lot of the contention is a 30% fee that you have to pay apple, which is part of their generally standard policy. this is something that you don't want to pay. if approved, would you have to pay that? david: absolutely not. we drew a redline saying we will never sit it to a 30% shakedown of our business. that wesaid repeatedly will never do in app payments and we have held our ground on that. there are other things that apple has asked us to do that we will do for them. there are a lot of unwritten rules that we thought we were following. there is a new set, perhaps a

, there is a new plan you can try it out with and have the app work for the multiuser corporate version as well. give appler going to 30% of our revenue. we went so far as to explore all of the legal options we have. even though we spoke with several law firms last friday about our case and most of them strong case,e a even if you win your case, you will be 10 years into the future. we really are at the mercy of apple here. hopefully apple sees this as a wake-up call. hopefully regulators see this, too. apps like ours have to be on iphone and ipad to be competitive so we can really

negotiate with apple. apple sets all the terms and we are left to merely comply. i think we have spark up a storm here because we were perhaps one of the first developers to say, no, you can't just come on and update and ask us for 30% of our revenue. that is unreasonable. we have heard from countless developers who said they have been shaken in the same way. apple says they are trying to create a level playing , that they don't make any money for apple. you do speak to some developers ao acknowledge that this is cost of doing business for the yet you do have dropbox. like netflix, the contention is the apple

while has these rules and enforces them inconsistently. what do you think a better policy will be? give: first of all, developers the choice of whether they want to app -- 12 opt in for apple's payment system. there are certain benefits. apple already has customer credit cards on file. they make it extremely easy for customers to spend money. outrageous. the windows app store charges 5%. some of these gaming stores actually have competition that charge 10% or 12%. you can see what competition does. it lowers the price. we would not have opted into apple's payment system. 2.4%y between 1.8% and process credit cards. we bring our own customers. we are not asking apple freebies

or favors. we already pay apple for the right to publish on the ios platform. apple charges all developers $100 per year which, today, goes quite a long way to cover basic things like traffic and storage. if apple wanted to charges a fee to get approval, we would be happy to pay that as well. the 30% is just outrageous and it can't be the deal that they forced down everyone's throat. emily: speaking of regulation, the eu has opened two antitrust investigations into the app store come into apple pay. you have the antitrust subcommittee looking into apple. take a look at what the chair of that committee, david cicilline, told us about what he viewed as apple's app store policy. thatis is very concerning use of the app store -- the

users of the app store are being forced to pay a ransom of 30% or they are denied access to that marketplace. google and apple arrive at the same thing, one third of the profit. that sort of market power is very disturbing. of might have a percentage 2% or 3%. even the credit card is not really competitive but it is 2% or 3%. this is 30%, highway robbery. this: what is your take on antitrust group given that apple is not the most dominant mobile platform in the world, it is android? david: they are part of a duopoly, and they share this with google. but, our product, a $100 per services, if you

look at all the research into where north american consumers spend, it is with apple. apple has the lion's share of that marketplace. they already have a monopoly position within that. this is highway robbery. i testified in front of this committee in january on this exact issue. this was well before we had any heat from apple on this issue. i was listening to developers. this is not right, this is classic antitrust splitter to vent abusive behavior. and it needs to be stopped. i am glad that chairman cicilline's commission is looking into this. it just so happens that the crazy timing was that the day we got denied from apple was literally the day that the eu announced its investigations. it is high time that apple is being investigated for their antitrust abuse and hopefully

something good comes of that. we are just trying to survive in the meantime. if the firefighters show up to our business 3, 4 years from now and apple kicks us out of the app store, we will have burned to the ground. that is not what i want for our employees. that is not what i want for our customers. emily: quite a metaphor. apple has opened up ios as of today, to third-party mail apps. that?s your reaction to david: there are so many things here, but the timing does seem incredible. for two years, we have invested millions of dollars into development. for all this to come together in two weeks is incredible. i am glad to see that. apple makes great products. fan for 20 an apple years.

they do great things with privacy, they do great things with their products. we are developers. we want to make apple's platform better. $1.55 trillion, and in the letter of rejection to us, we told them, you have not been paying us for eight years. where is our money come on, apple. we are making this platform for you. developers are what made the monopoly you enjoy and profit from. david: the timing certainly is something. founder and co-ceo david heinemeier hansson. -- and cto david heinemeier hansson. coming up, andrew yang today unveiled a new project to get americans paid for their data. people join us later in the show. also, his thoughts on tiktok us

ers potentially taking trump's rally. cheskyrbnb ceo brian takes us through the darkest hours through the pandemic. ♪

emily: welcome back to "bloomberg technology." a fraction of the crowd expected showed up at president trump's rally in tulsa, oklahoma over the weekend. tictoc andt teens on korean pop bands on twitter scooped up tickets for the event with no intention of going. for more on this i want to bring former predental campaign manager for john mccain's campaign in 2008. he is also a bloomberg contributor and has worked for several republican presidents going back to ronald reagan. what is your take on this?

i think we are seeing the newest group of people to use twitter to influence an election. it is an exciting development and something a lot of people are talking about today. the vaunted trump social media operation that set records for participation and attendance over the last three years got totally cracked. i'm sure they are spending a lot of time today at trump headquarters on how to try to figure out to keep this from happening in the future. emily: how big of a miscalculation is this for the trump campaign, which has expertly used social media to be fair, now getting outsmarted by the various platforms they themselves have exploited? rick: i think there are two things happening. one is the k pop and twitter trolls influencing the

reservations they got which were as they described, the trump campaign manager said were over one million people had rsvped the rally. the other piece is when you boil it down they knew they were not going to get one million people to attend. by their own estimate they had 60,000 to attend the rally in tulsa, oklahoma both indoors and outdoors. and frankly, less than 7000 showed up. so 1/10 of what they actually believed would actually attend the rally showed up. so there was a failure on the part of the teams who were setting up the rally. the venue overbuilt listing by a factor of 20. and then there was getting skunked on expectations built out in the press that somehow this would be the largest rally donald trump would ever attend. they missed on two occasions. do not buildo fix,

a rally stage until you know the people show up. the other is these people on social media claiming to be friends and bond of being pranksters, will be much more difficult for the trump people to figure out how to deal with. emily: that was my next question. these rallies are an opportunity for the campaign to build their database, get contact information. if so many of the people who signed up are not true trump supporters or even fake names, how difficult will that be to sift through? rick: it will be very hard for the trump campaign because they rely on people who sign up for these rallies to then get a lot of their communications, both advocacy, why you should be voting for donald trump, and fun writing -- fundraising. most of donald trump's fundraising comes through the web. if you signed up through one of these events you have either gotten email or a text field that has been filled out.

and you are now receiving -- there are a lot of k-pop fans receiving fundraising appeals from the trump campaign. and the trump campaign is inundating people with these fundraising requests. so i am sure there are a lot of hangovers with the k-pop community and tiktok who are saying they're receiving probably every couple hours some kind of a text from a trump fundraiser to send money. but that is also going to ski potentialthink their harvest is for fundraising because they will be sending out millions of these donation fields that frankly are falling into people or just cranking them. emily: so here is the big question. we know that biden raised more money than trump in may. we know he is leading in the polls. is this a real sign of decreasing enthusiasm in trump's campaign? rick: well, we have always known that trump has an enthusiastic

base, and that base has stayed with him through thick and thin during his presidency so far. all the ups and downs, he has maintained this study 40% of support. both his job approval and the cover between 40%, 45%. there is no indication that there is any lack of that. but i do think the lack of attendance at the rally is an indication that people are not prepared to play the old game of packing the house for donald trump, give him a venue to say to other people, i have all these supporters, i do not need you. it is not like he is reaching out to influential groups who are not already supporting him. so whether or not this really has a bad impact on his fundraising or base of support in the core states he is campaigning is too early to tell, but it is not a good indication for donald trump that business as usual, the way he has campaigned throughout the

last three years -- remember, he declared his campaign open for business the day he was inaugurated. he has been doing the same shtick for three years already, and that may not be able to last through this coronavirus period, or in the form it has been in with these big rallies. emily: right. so does trump need a shift in strategy? biden,this good for given that trump's taking all the fire being in the spotlight, and perhaps better for biden to just stay under the radar? the: yeah, this is like third shift of strategy for president trump since the election period really began in the primaries. he failed in a couple different efforts to try and reboot his campaign or create a different line of attack against joe biden. so this big tulsa event was supposed to be a new way to reset the campaign, and that has failed. so there will be another effort to reset. what form that comes in, nobody

can tell. will he try another series of events, or will he try talking directly to the people from the oval office? there are a lot of different options he has. i will say biden's lack of campaign does not seem to have hurt him a bit. he is up in the polls, his fundraising is high. it seems the democratic party has consolidated around him, and he has taken advantage of the fact that trump demands attention and he has had bad months back to back. emily: it is going to be quite a few months leading into the election. rick davis, former campaign manager for john mccain. rick, thank you so much for joining us. meantime, we also spoke with former president to hopeful andrew yang who is unveiling a new project today to get americans compensated for their data. he also weighed in on the trump rally in the possibility that tiktok teens and k-pop twitter

users per 10. andrew: -- pranked him. andrew: we were always trying to estimate how many people would show up, and a lot of it was based on sign-ups. so the teens were very smart. i think they boost to the numbers to some inflated number, and the true level was an inflation of that. it goes to show if you are going to run an event, you have to figure out who is signing up, where they live, and whether they will show. emily: normally president trump is expertly using the power of social media. on that note, do you think the biden campaign understands technology enough and can do what they need to do in order to break through, hold onto the momentum they have, and generate the buzz that will be needed to win? andrew: i think joe will do well among many, many americans because people know him so well. i think it will be difficult for him to somehow catch up to president trump in terms of his subscriber count or social media following.

so he should lean on people who already have pre-existing followings to amplify his message online. but americans get their information from many different sources, and i believe joe is poised to compete and win in the fall, even if his youtube user account doesn't have as many subscribers as trump. emily: what does biden have to do in order to gain momentum at a time we are in the middle of a pandemic, you cannot have in person rallies generally. how does he break through? andrew: what is interesting is i feel like this current a landscape actually is favoring joe, because the more we see of trump, the worse he seems. and joe is just rising steadily because we all are for millie with him. i think the -- all are familiar with him. because if joe reaches out and says will you work on meet with us, most everyone will say yes because many people are eager to see trump out of the white house in the fall. emily: you have been very busy

since you left the campaign and now you are announcing your own initiative to get people compensated for their data. rbc companies like facebook, google and twitter make a lot of money on data created by their users. how exactly would this work? what with the nuts and bolts be? andrew: california just passed a law earlier this year that gives consumer these data property rights that they did not have before. so my new initiative, ddp, data dividend project, is going to unionss a union for many to negotiate on your behalf. if anyone should be paid for the use of our data, we should be included. emily: what has been the reaction from lawmakers? we have this privacy law in california but there is federal regular and potentially pending

but still has not happened on data privacy. andrew: we can go on a state-by-state level particularly because california already has a law on the books starting next week. emily: you had many progressive ideas during the campaign, including universal basic income. what is your take on that, given haveideas he championed not taken off within the democratic party? andrew: dozens of legislators are championing emergency cash relief during the pandemic throughout the crisis. that joe andistic his team are open-minded about different solutions to help us get out of this dark hole we are in. the reality is tens of millions of jobs are gone for good. 40% will not come back, which would still leave us in a hole something like two times as the kent -- deep and dark as the great recession.

joe and his team are open-minded about different solutions but i think they will consider universal basic income and many other things. emily: how often do you talk to his team? if he won, do you think you would have a job in the initiation? andrew: our teams are -- in his administration? andrew: our teams are in touch. he is supposed to come on my podcast. but our teams are in regular contact. i know what that is like to be the candidate and you have a lot on your plate. particularly in his case because we are all relying on him to win in the fall. emily: we are in a pandemic, we have protests around racial injustice happening around the country. not just a health crisis, but an economic crisis and a social crisis. how does that all play into who he should pick as his vp? who do you think it should be? andrew: we are in the midst of an omni crisis.

you have crises compounding on each other. i do not have any inside info, but i know that california's kamala harris is one of the front runners. a lot of it is about joe's chemistry with the person because he will have to govern with that person for four or more years. he knows that chemistry better than anyone, having served as vp himself. so it has to be an individual decision for joe. are you trying to get some leverage which would enable you to write some of the party's platform? andrew: i thought it was a terrible precedent to just do away with the primary. you have mail-in voting, you have the capacity for people to vote safely. . it was set -- it will set a terrible precedent if you say you can do away with an election if you decide that is what you want to do. and the federal court saw it the same way. they said you cannot deprive people of their way to vote this way. i am glad that the law prevailed and the people of new york can

vote tomorrow at the presidential and local level. emily: is that your hope, of gaining some kind of leverage, to be more involved in potentially developing a platform? and have you talked to the sanders team as well? andrew: i hope the platform will evolve to include universal begich -- basic income and other things are championed. i just saw a poll that said 75% of americans agree with emergency cash relief forever when during the crisis. the democrats need to embrace that policy because it is a winning recipe right now given how many americans are suffering. former presidential candidate andrew yang there. that is just part one of our interview. there will be more of that conversation on bloomberg technology tomorrow. meantime, up next, a wide-ranging and rare conversation with airbnb ceo brian chesky. the darkest hours of airbnb. he talks about all of it with

us, and the future of the home rental service, plus his outlook on going public in 2020. that is next. this is bloomberg. ♪ is bloomberg. ♪

as cities around the world continue to reopen, global travel companies are expecting a surge in pent-up demand, but travel as we know it will never be the same, according to airbnb ceo and cofounder, brian chesky. he took us back to the beginning and airbnb's darkest hour. brian: none of us were prepared for really a once in a century crisis. our industry, travel, has

described covid akin to world war ii. when that happened, it felt like i was working on our f1, we were going to file it march 31, and it felt like 12 years of success, we had all these things and life was great, and suddenly, you build something in 12 weeks and you lose most of it in four weeks. i cannot quite describe what that feels like. it felt like everything the company broke, a torpedo hit the side of the ship. emily: traveling a sickly came to a standstill. people did not want to travel or could not travel legally, it was illegal to rent an airbnb. what was the lowest point for you, the darkest hour? brian: there were so many dark hours. churchill,o winston if you are going through hell, just keep going. the first dark moment is when we

had about $1 billion of cancellations from guests. emily: you also had to cut 25% of the company and you gave an incredible generous severance package. your note to the team, i could feel the pain in there. talk to me about going through that process, cutting 25% of your staff. brian: it was the saddest thing i have ever done in my life, at least professionally. we were not sure if we would have to do layoffs, and we had to face the hard truth that travel, we did not know when it was going to return. and we knew that when travel returned, it would be different, it would never be the same. emily: you do not think travel will ever be the same? brian: no. emily: what will travel look like? brian: i do not know for sure, but here's what i will say. travel we'll be back, but it will be different. emily: what are you seeing in europe and asia versus the u.s.? brian: the united states has been very strong. again, i want to clarify. we cannot declare recovery

anywhere, because we do not yet know where pent-up demand is temporary or sustainable recovery. we are seeing a temporary recovery in the united states. most of europe, we have seen a temporaryn recovery except for the u.k. just a locked down until july 1. but france, germany, italy, spain, you are seeing strong growth. latin america has not recovered and asia is starting to recover, but not yet recovered. so north america and europe are extremely strong. latin america and asia are a bit behind. emily: how much do you think getting back to normal depends on a vaccine? or even then, will things we different? -- be different? brian: travel as we knew it, from valentine's day and before, is over. it is gone. it does not mean travel is gone, but that travel is gone. nobody knows quite what it will

be because it will be up for the industry to invent the way forward. but business travel is really going to be hit for a while. a lot of people are realizing they can do meetings on zoom. they are realized -- rethinking things. people are going to re-discover the outdoors. most americans have never been to a national park. most americans do not even know they live within 200 miles of a national park. one prediction is national park's are going to be in. these are things that will happen. the other thing is travel and living are going to blend together. what do i mean? if you can do your job from home, then if you can work from home, you can work from any home, anywhere in the world, so long as you are in the right time zone. so what you will start to see is not just travel redistribution, and no one can say for sure, but you might see population redistribution. people might start moving to smaller towns and communities, or may say i will live a few months here and a few months

there. why couldn't you if you can work behind your computer? so we will see a fundamental rethinking of travel and maybe even urban living. emily: in the midst of a pandemic you have launched online experiences. you can get an olympic athlete lesson, you can participate in virtual pride festivities. how popular have these experiences been, and how big could this be in terms of being part of your business going forward? experiencesnk that could be as big or probably bigger than our homes business in the long run. it is going to take a lot longer, but that is probably a bigger idea. the biggest asset in your life is not your home, it is your time. restaurants are shut down, sports are shut down. we are going to see a whole new era of entertainment. it is not just going to be streaming, people are going to want interactive experiences with one another. instead of just going to a restaurant or watching netflix,

maybe this is a third thing you can do. and if you do not want to leave your home, you can have an experience. in the long run,, the overall category, it will be a really big category. emily: airbnb was going to go public this year. it was going to be potentially the biggest stock listing of the year. you have not ruled out going public this year. where are you with that? brian: we were ready to file march 31 so we will be ready to file again. the real question is when is the world ready for us. this year, next year? hard to say. i will say that we are recovering faster than we thought, but i also did not want to have false hope. hope for the best, plan for the worst. the market seems like it is recovering, but there could be a double-dip. we are going to play it by ear. i want more data. we are still a little early in this crisis for me to feel clear enough about how it will play out. so we are not ruling it out this year, but we are definitely not committing to a timeline right now. emily: how likely is it it will

happen this year, and what are those uncertainties? brian: i would not want to speculate or give a percentage. so, i can just say it is on the table, but we are definitely not committing to it. you know, the fundamental questions are, does travel continued to recover? two, is it a sustainable recovery, or is it just pent-up demand? three, does the market have an appetite for companies listing, lost a bit of appetite after the ipo's last year, and we work, people lost appetite. seems like appetite is coming back. these are fundamental questions. if those things align, you open up a bit of a window. emily: i am wondering if you thought through this, why are you not already public? should you have gone out earlier? was that a mistake? brian: i think we are going to

look back on this period, and when we go public i think it will be successful. and i think that people will be really happy, and i do think we will be public sooner than later. i just did not know what sooner means. but i actually think we will look back at it and hopefully it will have played out well. we have a real responsibility to our stakeholders. it means a lot to me that the employees have a significant part of the network in our stock. we have shareholders who have held stop for nearly a decade. so it is important to me that they get liquidity, but i also think that we are going to have a really great year ahead of us. so i think things could work out for people. emily: i wonder if airbnb expended too much, too far, too fast. i know nobody was prepared for a pandemic, but do you think that was a miscalculation? brian: i think that we were a little unfocused, and we strayed from our roots and we strayed from connections, and we are

pursuing a lot of things. these are worthy things. someone told me you can do everything you want in life, but not the same time. when you get really successful, you tend to think you can do everything at the same time. that is it takes -- that is a big mistake a lot of founders make. it was not as clear until coburn happened. we looked at it with -- until covid happened. we looked at it and realized we need to be focused. hopefully that more focused company a lot faster and we can launch new things, then we can scale, expand, be big again but in a more focused way, and hire the people back we lost. emily: if you were to go public, it would be a traditional ipo rather than a direct listing, because you could bring in new money that could refinance the debt and you could pay that down without dealing with interest. brian: i think that it could be. there are a lot of ways of doing this. can -- do an ipo, you

there are a lot of options. i think we are looking at all options right now. emily: airbnb ceo brian chesky. more of that interview tomorrow on the show. thank you for watching. this is bloomberg. ♪ s is bloomberg. ♪ save hundreds on your wireless bill

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♪ good evening from bloomberg's world headquarters. i am shery ahn in new york. haidi: i'm haidi stroud-watts in sydney. here are your top stories this hour. tech higher amid rising optimism about the economy. herenest egg the longest rally f the year, although the s&p 500 dragging on fears of the coronavirus surge. 9obal infections have topped