are going to be in a slow growth world for a very long period of time. >> trade is very much on the back foot, and there's a lot of negative consequent is that come from that. >> we've come to a point that we realize that the economy and have to coexist. we can choose one or the other. >> this is "bloomberg surveillance" with tom keene, jonathan ferro, and lisa abramowicz. jonathan: from new york city for our audience worldwide, good morning. this is "bloomberg surveillance ." we are live on bloomberg tv and bloomberg radio. alongside tom keene, i'm jonathan ferro, together with lisa abramowicz. this is bloomberg. confusion over the relationship between china and the united states, and it got a whole lot more confusing overnight. you listen to the interview on fox with navarro, and it is urtness ofthe c

his response and what that did for markets. you are going to do a data check in the appropriate crowd noise behind the data, but what is important to me is you've still got a bid to the market even within the quiet. jonathan: spare us the crowd noise when i do the market check. peter navarro saying that the trade agreement was over. the president, his boss, correcting him pretty quickly. ae so-called fiscal cliff, different kind of fiscal cliff going into july. what will happen with the fiscal stimulus we got months ago, and what will this administration do in the next 30 days? lisa: president trump coming out in a "washington post" article, saying he perhaps does support the $1200 additional stimulus check to be sent out. the white house has yet to take an additional position -- take

an official position. in election season, president trump heading down to arizona in his latest bid to try to rejuvenate his campaign. they are going to be talking about the border wall. he is departing the white house at 9:00 a.m.. other things we are watching today, 9:45 a.m., we are going to get u.s. june pmi's. this follows better-than-expected data out of europe. at 2:30 pm, there's a senate panel hearing on china's culpability for the pandemic. this speaks to the growing wall of worry. headed into election season, we will see more trade tensions and protectionist policies adding to a wall of worry that right now, traders are betting the fed can's amount with an endless stream of liquidity. jonathan: the china story is a subject keeping this market on edge. we saw equity futures really whip sawing back.

we are positive 0.7% on the s&p 500. suissen golub of credit moved his price target to 3200. i am not sure if he will like that characterization, so we will let him tell his him story. good morning. that's a start with a short one. why? jonathan: if there is a simple story here, it is not that i think the economy is going to be magnificently better. it is the fact that we have taken out these downside risks, all of these government at -- these government actions have diminished the potential for this thing to double-dip to the levels we have seen before so i think that the upside, calling for about 3% upside through year .nd the single chart that is

important to me on your , you can seeminal the number of bankruptcies filed. you can see that, including the 2008-2009, that in big recessions you see a spike in bankruptcies, and that is not happening at all. businesses are not going under because of all these actions, and that is one of the reasons why i think we are not going to double-dip, even if the upside is not there. jonathan: another reason why the next 30 days or so important on the policy front. what do you need to see? jonathan: i think you are 100% right. there's two big issues that i think are important. the ppp program going to small businesses to keep them afloat, that rolls off at the beginning of july. then you have this government settlement of the $600 a month going to people who are .nemployed

those are going to be a real political football, and if they are not rolled over -- and if we the consumer rollover, that is going to take a big hit in the market will not take that well. the problem is congress is not going to be debating these issues until sometime in july, so we are going to feel pretty uncomfortable about these before it gets resolved one way or another. tom: i am going to cut you some major slack on the cheap shots come on heas taken was bearish and now he is bullish, all of that. what would be the next tranche of optimism from you? where does it come on the income statement? does it come from adapting to this pandemic and economic crisis, and they make margins

better? which is it to get you to the next tranche of optimism? jonathan: if we were to be talking in six months from now, and you were to say this is what happens that is going to make the upside much more, it is not going to be more liquidity. i think that we have already seen the response. the question is how quickly we get back to an economy running at 100%. let's ask the question, when is it that commuters are comfortable going back into new york again? when is it that we are comfortable getting on airplanes again? when is it that we could get over 20 million people that have been unemployed back to work? the answer to each of those is longer than you would think. improvement off the bottom, we know that is going to be good.

the pmi's are going to be good. the question is if you are looking up at the sky, not down where we were when we were staying at home, that is really going to drive the market. tom: what do the banks do here? where are you on the financials? jonathan: our bank analyst is terrific. the good news is that the economy is going pretty well. the credit losses probably don't end up being as bad as we all think, and that is a positive story. on the other hand, net interest margins for banks are a problem longer-term if you have really low interest rates, so i think the banks are going to be a little more challenging. here's the key. banks are not going to need to raise the loot of capital. all of the regulate -- all of the really ugly stuff is not

there. the question is what does the profit model look like in a lower rate environment, especially one where economic growth long-term may be weaker. talk about credit losses being mitigated by the fact that we will probably not get shutdowns, i am wondering what the increase in virus comes in places like texas, where the governor has said it is unacceptable how quickly it is spreading, how that factors into your thesis is that factored in, or do you think that is a case that is sort of an outlier at this point? jonathan: we are obsessing on this issue. my team just ran some numbers last night, and what they found was, first of all, the number of cases is spiking primarily in the southern half of the u.s. in california, and in the north,

the number of new cases continues to fall. however, the deaths are not going up anywhere, or at least any of the major regions. what you are finding is the people who are getting sick now our younger people who are going out because they are not concerned about the downside of getting the virus. so the people getting sick are not showing up in intensive care units or at the hospital, and they are not dying. are seeing ise pretty rational behavior. people are living their lives, they are getting sick, but not in a way that is going to cause another shut down. this is what it is going to feel like in an environment where we are going to have to live with this for a long time.

so i think that we are not going to be seeing anything which looks like a national shutdown. citiese see individual or markets for ace very short time? we could come up but even then, i don't think we are going to happen. if we did see a shutdown, that is a really big robin. but i don't think these numbers are inconsistent with each other. golub of jonathan credit suisse, appreciate your honesty and your time this morning. lisa, you pick up on an important subtle shift in the last 24 hours, with texas governor greg abbott adjusting that the tolerant -- that the tolerance for reopening is being tested, and questioning if additional measures will be necessary. the tolerance of policymakers be as they continue to push forward with reopening

lands -- reopening plans? lisa: in fact, texas is continuing its reopening assets even as they see the spike in cases. we talked about this yesterday with apple stores closing. companies are going to respond. consumers are going to respond. hugeis going to be a social study going forward for everyone in the data. jonathan: we go back to a question we asked 24 hours ago on this program. are we seeing an inflection point build which is going to throw this recovery way off course? i spent a lot of time today looking at the per capita state virus statistics, and i will be honest, they are grim. some of the southern states on a rate of change per capita basis were like new jerse -- were like new york and new jersey

eight weeks ago. two people really want to go back to the office, like jon ferro wants to go back to the office? jonathan: the conversation continues. a little later this morning, we will catch up with st. louis fed president jim bullard, h: 30 eastern come alive on bloomberg tv and bloomberg radio. from new york city this morning, good morning bloomberg -- good morning. this is bloomberg. ritika: with the first word news, i'm ritika gupta. president trump calm the markets rattled by markets about the -- rattled by the statement about the trade deal. trade advisor peter navarro set up a stock slide. he told fox news that aspects of the trade deal were over. he said his comments were taken wildly out of context. vice president mike pence is warning that more young people around the country are testing positive for coronavirus. he made the remarks in a conference call with governors.

that echoed concerns by texas governor greg abbott. he says he may help or rivers -- he may halt or reverse the state's reopening. british prime minister boris johnson will announce the latest stage of coronavirus lockdown today. he is expected to allow movie theaters and others to open their doors. bayer will reportedly settle thousands of cancer lawsuits in the u.s. for $8 billion to $10 billion. that involves the weedkiller roundup. there are thousands of lawsuits accusing the weedkiller of causing cancer. bayer inherited the suits when it bought month-end. -- when it bought monsanto. global news 24 hours a day, on air and on quicktake by bloomberg, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in more than 120 countries. gupta.ika this is bloomberg. ♪

>> do you think that the president -- i mean, he obviously really wanted to hang onto this trade deal as much as possible, and he wanted them to

make good on the promises because there has been progress made on that trade deal. but given everything that has happened and all of the things he just listed, is that over? >> it's over, yes. jonathan: long question, short answer on fox news with peter navarro, enough to shake this market. equity futures off the back of that down hard, then bouncing back at the president suggested, not over. the trade one phase deal -- the trade phase i one deal is "intact." on bloomberg tv and bloomberg radio, this is "bloomberg surveillance." right now, futures up 24 on the s&p 500. we are doing better, up 0.8%. in the bond market, treasury yields just a little but higher. up three basis point on 30's. on tens, call it two basis points higher. in foreign, dollar weakness continues. the euro stronger by a couple of tenths of 1%. the confusion overnight carry

through to this morning. if very long question, a very short answer, signaling how much this market is still on edge somewhat over this story. tom: let me ask a very short question to kevin cirilli, our chief washington correspondent. how does dr. navarro fit into the mix at the white house? i know jon wants to jump in here, but fit in where navarro is in the pantheon of trump advisors. kevin: he is in the stephen theon-esque wing of economic ideology, particularly on trade relations. navarro clarifying his remarks to fox in a statement following that appearance, saying he was not suggesting that the u.s.-china trade deal is off the table. the president tweeting out a clarification as well. in terms of agricultural product , this is incredibly important. look no further than arkansas' third congressional district, where that tysons plant has been

ground zero for trade right now as china has backed off of agricultural purchases coming from that particular plant. that really is why republicans are nervous about the leverage that xi jinping might have in the 2020 election for heartland states. this is really difficult for the administration going into november. can they be simultaneously hawkish on china and shore up the economy of the same time? kevin: the administration has said, as you know from your conversations with administration officials, that they have been trying to successfully divorce the china trade talk from the larger issues that the united states has with china on intellectual property, as well as a host of other issues. we should note that it is not just china looking at political leverage in the u.s. heartland right now. there are a series of europeans

-- there are a series of decisions that will be impacting the markets, and erupt as i and leverage in terms of different agricultural and seafood industries. in terms of the politics of this , it is really wrapped up in trade, and could have long-lasting political implication heading into november. jonathan: the next 30 days is critical on the policy side. fiscal stimulus. the president, according to "the washington post," would like to see more stimulus checks sent to americans. where are we, and how important is the next 30 days? kevin: it is massively important. there is not republican unison on the issue as it relates to a next round of economic stimulus. i have been speaking with lawmakers in both parties for the past couple of days in terms of where they are on getting to some type of consensus ahead of the august recess. quite frankly, there is not that consensus. as states reopen, republicans are increasingly less likely to

get behind another round of helicopter cash, and more likely to try to get behind some type of reopening strategy. the president forecasting that he wants to see some type of economic stimulus in the fall around infrastructure, but that close to an election, historically it has been unlikely for such a massive type of economic fiscal stimulus to be impacted that close to election. lisa: does president trump still have a power over the republican party to set the consensus? kevin: i think he does, and here is why. i spoke yesterday with a strategist in kentucky senator rand paul's orbit who said that they are banking that because the president was not on the ballot in 2018, that is why you saw less turnout amongst republicans, and that the president on the ballot in november would drive based turnout for republicans.

however, there was a "mowing "mowing -- a "des out that aster" poll largely political unknown, a democrat progressive in that state, is leading joni ernst, according to that poll. she is running on the basis of agriculture. she is a small-town farmer now,d political politician so that could be a bellwether in terms of how the senate will go come november. tom: it is a tuesday, which means primary voting. there's three key races, and mr. biden may wake up to progressive or liberal victories of his democratic already. how closely will the vice president look at tonight's results? kevin: i think he is going to keep a careful to have on that come about largely, the campaign has really decided that they are

going to make this a referendum election and not a choice election. look for the republicans to try to do everything they can to make it a choice election and not a referendum. jonathan: kevin cirilli in washington, d.c., appreciate your time this morning. as kevin mentioned earlier on, there are still several areas where the president does pretty well. one, with his own party. the republicans, his base. the other is on the economy. obviously a key issue going into november is who is going to be better at handling the economic recovery out of 2020 into 2021. one of the big challenges for vice president joe biden and the democrats is to say it is us. it is him. tom: no question about that. dorion -- philip hildenbrand of black rock was really good about this. 30ish and theober

election is just a few days later. what does q3 look like, and who does it set up best on that first tuesday of november? jonathan: we've mentioned this a few times over the last few weeks, it is creeping up higher on the agenda, isn't it? lisa: and i wonder how this is going to be factored into the market action. right now it seems like the fed is able to absolutely overwhelm any wall of worry, even though there are bricks being added to it by the day, with trade tensions, protectionism, as well as the election. , equities upht now on the s&p 500 by 0.9%. risk on, a mild move higher in the equity market compared to some of the bigger moves over the last couple of weeks. twohe bond market, tends up basis points to 0.73%. thehour from now, one of interviews of the morning on

bloomberg radio and bloomberg tv as we catch up with the st. louis fed president, jim bullard. 8:30 eastern, 65 minutes away. from new york, this is "bloomberg surveillance." ♪

♪ jonathan: from new york, this is "bloomberg surveillance." we are live on bloomberg tv and bloomberg radio. alongside tom keene, i'm jonathan ferro, together with lisa abramowicz. us getting you in shape for the opening bell, two hours away in new york city. equity futures up 26 points on the s&p 500, 0.8%. looking to add some weight to the moves higher yesterday. huge outperformance from big tech once again. the cyclical rotation fading just a little bit. in the bond market, treasury yields just a bit higher, the curve a bit steeper. in foreign exchange, euro-dollar up by a couple of tenths of 1%. the eurozone, let's use the following phrase. things are getting less bad. still in the 40's on the pmi's, but not as bad as they were a

month or so ago. tom: absolutely true. that is a really nice way of putting it. about an hour ago, been laid ago, andabout an hour analysis of freight and shipping tonnage, and that was the analysis of less bad. ourt now, she is one of most wonderful thinkers on , as she practiced with john hancock over to her proven academics at princeton and oxford. megan greene joins us from harvard kennedy school. aside the shock of brexit, over the shock we are all living now what the pandemic. how do we extract ourselves from a pandemic? is it an act of god, and we move

quickly? or is it a long and slow process? megan: unfortunately, i think we're looking at a pretty long, slow, hard slog. we bounced pretty quickly in may and june, so some people might be potential -- might become to do say this looks like a v-shaped recovery, but getting the 20% who lost their jobs back to the workforce is a lot easier than getting the last 20%. there's a host of downside risks as well, both in europe and the u.s.. the market seems to have noticed that the number of new covid-19 cases in the u.s. has gone up by 55% in the past week. i think that is a huge risk that isn't being priced in. we saw confusion over trade with china and the u.s. also causing jitters for markets. but there's going to be trade tensions as this election comes closer regardless. a hard brexit is another downside risk, and none of this be priced in. am: wto out moments ago with

statistic or so on global growth. you use the word inefficacy of fiscal placement. the critics of mmt would say you can't do fiscal stimulus in a -- narrow,certed concerted manner. can we prove that this time is the exception? megan: fiscal policy can certainly help here. as we look at the u.s. stimulus pipeline, it looks like it is drying out, and it will make a huge difference whether we were yup some of that are not -- whether we re-up some of that or not. we had to provide things like checks that weren't targeted at all. but i constantly ask whether we are doing mmt. mmt isn't really something you do. it is more of a school of

thought. but i do think to some degree, is wehe mmters get right don't have to raise the money in order to spend it. we can just deficit spend, and that is the obvious answer for any major economy facing incredibly low borrowing costs for the foreseeable future, like the ua and the u.s. -- what the u.k. on the u.s., and even the you to some degree. so i think we are right to be deficit spending like mad to try and dig ourselves out of this hole and prompt the recovery. jonathan: and yet the recovery effort seems to be particularly .umpy in the united states we will be catching up with bob prince tomorrow for anyone who wants to watch that. the duration mismatch is something they are focused on. prince mentioning that we keep applying three-month band-aids to something that could last months and maybe longer. what do you make of that approach? that is right.

i think we've applied a two-month band-aid for the most part in the u.s., for companies and for those who have been laid off, and i think this is going to be a much longer, harder slog, so we are going to either have to keep re-upping it, and investors have to trust that we are going to keep re-upping it, or there is going to be some kind of market dislocation. i think there is a problem in politics that at a certain point, policymakers start asking about how we are going to pay for this. that is a totally inappropriate question to be asking in the middle of it. we can ask afterwards how we figure this out, and the answer is deficit spending, particularly for the u.s. if we end up having policymakers wringing their hands and refusing to pass more stimulus, that is going to have a huge impact on our recovery, and i think it will be an even longer, harder slog than it otherwise would have been. this is why we need automatic stabilizers, and also to make sure they don't get turned off too soon so there's not a political process that just

happens based on the data. there is some work being done on trying to input automatic stabilizers in the u.s.. hopefully we can build some of those in for the next crisis, even if it is a bit too late for this one. jonathan: what worries me is that some policymakers are taking their cues from markets right now because markets are elevated. some people don't feel the urgency to do more. how instructive is the economic data for policymakers as they try to calibrate with the next should be? megan: most of our economic indicators are pretty backward looking, but they are already starting to show a bounce. a lot of the alternative high-frequency data we are looking at also shows that. that takes the pressure off of policymakers as well. it looks like a v-shaped recovery right now. that was always going to happen. we were going to have the best growth figures for all kinds of

off of a really low bottom, and that will be politicized. president trump and the republicans will highlight how we've got the best data ever. the democrats will highlight that it is from the worst base ever. and both sides will be right. that will be really confusing for people, and i think that will model the debate on whether to do more. i don't think the economic data is going to be helping in the short term, but that quick bounce was inevitable. it should slow down. it will be much harder to pull people into work the longer this goes on. lisa: you said the u.s. should be deficit spending like crazy. should individuals, should corporations be deficit spending like crazy? because they are. they are borrowing a ton. is this just prolonging the pain that is inevitable anyway? megan: no, sovereigns are distant -- are different from households and companies in that they never actually have to pay that debt back. they just roll it over for years and years.

households and companies can't do that. the same rules don't apply. we have seen record corporate debt issuance. could that be a problem coming down the line? absolutely. we started this off with a bit of a bubble in corporate debt, and at some point that will come home to roost, but not while rates are at zero for the perceivable future. think that pushes that a future.ut into the lisa: if the u.s. doesn't continue fiscal stimulus with enhanced unemployment benefits, could we see this come home to roost sooner? wayd this bubble pop in a that becomes problematic for markets and the economy? megan: definitely. 70% of our economy is consumption. if we don't to re-up unemployment insurance benefits ppp program, we are

facing a cliff's edge in terms of people having jobs and being able to spend. hope wef that, i see something in state and local funding coming from the government. without that, it would be very difficult to avoid a double-dip recession, so fiscal policy won't make much of a difference here. of then: megan greene harvard kennedy school, always fantastic to catch up with you. this is the critical issue for the next 30 days. to believe that this it ministration will do more, i think you've got to believe that this president is willing to risk his reelection campaign in november. can you really see the president of the united states, and we can question whether these are the right motives, but can you really see the president jeopardizing his reelection campaign by not doing more to help this economy in the next 30 days? lisa: certainly the pressure is to do more, and we are seeing that from republicans as well, even some pushback on increasing

the federal deficit. the question is what form will it take. will they re-up the actual enhanced unemployment benefits? will it be as effective next time around? these are some of the questions i am looking at because honestly , the form of this matters a lot, and it will likely change going forward. jonathan: the next 30 days are absolutely critical. i am not sure that a fiscal cliff is the right phrase to describe this. if you want the supply side stuff, are you confident that is going to follow through in enough time? are you confident it might support markets immediately? i doubt it. tom: there is a grand tradition here. this president is no different than any other president. there's a lot of duress out there. there's no question he is going to push for fiscal stimulus, and let's be honest, he's got a lot of company. i like how you promoted your

interview tomorrow with robert prince of bridgewater. we need to talk about that through the show today. that will be an important recapitulation of what you and i nowin davos with him, and evermore so, we have a dampened economy that bob prince talked about. jonathan: the end of boom and bust as we know it, a man who made a lot of headlines in davos , switzerland. feels like a lifetime ago now. i am not sure this is the end of boom and bust that he expected. i thing maybe this outcome is a little bit different. tom: we will have to see. you've got to bring up cash's trash. the mail is coming already. you've got to get the bridgewater view will not right now. jonathan: i will bring up all of those issues. don't worry about that. that is tomorrow at the bloomberg best conference. from new york city this morning, good morning to you all. alongside tom keene together with lisa abramowicz, getting

you ready for the opening bell. futures, upity about 0.9%. bonds creeping higher as well. 8:30 eastern on bloomberg tv and bloomberg radio, exclusively sitting down and catching up with the st. louis fed president, jim bullard. this is "bloomberg surveillance ." with the first word news, i'm ritika gupta. a warning from infectious diseases chief anthony fauci and other top health officials. they will tell congress today they are preparing for a flu season that will be complicated by the coronavirus pandemic. they don't expect the pandemic to be mitigated by vaccine anytime soon. the cdc has developed a test that can check for both viruses at the same time. is visitingump arizona today and will focus on an issue that was a winner for

him in 2016, border security. arizona once was a reliable republican stronghold, but now polls show president trump trails joe biden. there is a rising number of coronavirus cases in the state. the trump administration may oppose tariffs on aluminum from -- may impose tariffs on aluminum coming from canada. u.s. trade representative robert lighthizer is concerned about american aluminum producers that see sales and prices drop in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic. in germany, the former ceo of embattled payments firm wire arrested as part of an investigation into the company's accounting practices. that -- acknowledged probably doesn't exist.

global news 24 hours a day, on air and on quicktake by bloomberg, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in more than 120 countries. i'm ritika gupta. this is bloomberg. ♪

>> i think we are going to begin a recovery certainly by year-end. i don't think we will be back to

anything close to a normal economy until probably the second half of 2021. ofathan: bill ackman pershing square. a lot of people sharing that view. from new york city this morning, good morning to you while. alongside tom keene, i'm jonathan ferro, together with lisa abramowicz. equity futures nicely elevated, up 27 points on the s&p 500. after getting absolutely whipsawed overnight by trade comments from peter navarro saying it is over, then the president saying the china-u.s. trade deal is very much intact. here's the latest out of the united kingdom on the reopening process. prime minister boris johnson making an announcement in the last 10 minutes or so it. , allowingmeter rule more businesses to reopen. so you and i have to stay a meter apart if we go out and do things together. tourism and hospitality in england can reopen july 4.

hotel and campsites can also reopen in england. unfortunately for you, nightclubs, gyms, indoor pools will remain closed. that is if you can get into the u.k. and they do something about that poor and teen anytime soon. -- that quarantine anytime soon. tom: why is the prime minister saying a meter? doesn't britain go by yards? jonathan: no, tom. [laughter] we implemented that metric thing a while back. i think it is you that needs to do the same thing. are you really throwing shade at the brits about imperial and metric germans when you still -- metric measurements when you still use imperial? tom: we are. we will get two shillings and pence in a moment. this is what we love to do at "bloomberg surveillance." we are thrilled you are with us on our simulcast. why don't we actually talk to somebody with some experience in

all of this are we going back to the office? deloitte, if you said to him we need to rebuild the floor by tuesday, he's the one guy who can actually do it. what her office is going to do -- what our offices going to do? what are they going to do with the bodies on the floor to keep -- top, lisa and me apart keep jon, lisa and me apart? darin: great to speak with you. financialand institutions are struggling with the return area first of all, they are going to bring them back in waves. we have all heard that. it will be a slow progression back. there will be social distancing in the work base. companies will either remove chairs from the floor, tape those chairs off, and try to keep people socially distant. it is an imperative. how they do that in terms of

other improvements that they are going to make to the workplace remains to be seen. tom: let's go to madison economics, wisconsin. it is not the obvious dynamic, but it is a less obvious dynamic. people want to come back to the office. are they going to want to, or are they going to be ordered to? darin: we know that there are all types out there. some people are absolutely going out of their minds were at home during this period. they can't wait to get back. tom: no. no! darin: at the other end, there are people doing quite fine at home. enjoying being productive, and getting a lot more done. so when companies start the return, i expect there's going to be a lot in the middle. employees are going to spend part of their work week in the office and part of their work remote. i am wondering how

expensive it is going to be for companies to outfit their offices in a way that does prevent people from getting sick. how much are you seeing this investment happening now, at a time when it is unclear how many will ultimately be returning to the office full-time? darin: it is a great question. there are definitely going to be additional costs to operate the office during covid times. costs for nurses or medical professionals to take temperatures. elevator operators, signage, ppe. analysis suggests the cost can $3000,te to as much as $4000, or even higher her returning employee to the office. the total cost of occupancy in these high-rise buildings in downtown office markets in the united states are anywhere from $8,000 to $12,000 per worker. 30% to 50%represent

increase in occupancy costs during covid times. going forward, how much is this going to increase cost, and how much do you expect it to decrease the need for real estate as companies look to satellite offices or more permanent work from home situation? darin: it is a good question. i think the cost i just mentioned would certainly be on a temporary basis during this pandemic management protocol that we are going to be operating under. it remains to be seen how many companies are actually going to adjust the foot with hard costs. different furniture, different layouts, which would be much more of an expense. if we can realize a quick solution to the pandemic, i would expect many temporary costs to sunset, and then companies to be able to potentially go back to the old ways of working, with the

exception that there will be a larger number of the workforce that would be working at home. if companies are able to read -- are able-- to to redensify, i would expect that companies need less office space. there should be an opportunity for companies to take advantage 10%, 30% orional more of office employees working remote and potentially use less square footage in the long-term. jonathan: a timely conversation about getting back to work. appreciate your time this morning. thank you. lisa, i think for management in the c-suite, this is such a hard decision to make. can you really make firm, permanent ideas with very long time frames about the future geographical, physical footprint of your company as we slowly

make our way out of this pandemic? i think it is too early to make those calls. lisa: i would agree with you. a lot of people say that working from home is the answer for a lot of people. i don't know. the longer this goes on, how much creative energy it's destroyed -- energy gets destroyed? how many interpersonal relationships do we have in the bank that we are using to push forward? when kids go back to school, that is going to be the true test for how many people return to the office. jonathan: i agree. any real estate decision is a long-term decision. i don't know how many are willing to make long-term decisions about real estate just yet. i think they will remain nimble coming out of this. that seems to be the preference of many in the c-suite that we speak to. tom: that was a great interview with a mechanical engineer from wisconsin. i am looking so forward to re g with you and lisa

before christmas. [laughter] jonathan: from new york city this morning, good morning. coming up on this program, st. louis fed president jim bullard, just around the corner on bloomberg tv and bloomberg radio. ♪ ♪

♪ >> what we need to realize is we are going to be in a slow growth world for a very long time. >> trade is very much on the back foot, and there's a lot of negative consequent is that come from that. >> we've come to a point where we realize that the economy and the virus have to covid this. can't choose one or the other. tom: this is -- >> this is "bloomberg surveillance" with tom keene, jonathan ferro, and lisa abramowicz. tom: good morning. thank you for being with us, the simulcast on bloomberg radio and bloomberg television, and particularly, we welcome all of you across the