♪ >> it is going to be a force to be reckoned with. >> it is probably going to end in tears for a lot of the retail investors and hedge funds. >> from a stability perfective, it is still robust. >> we haven't seen signals that these traits will spark any systemic risk. >> if you don't reestablish functioning wall street and stability, it is disastrous for the economy. >> everyone is looking for a bogeyman, but i think we find out that nothing has really changed. >> this is "bloomberg surveillance" with tom keene, jonathan ferro, and lisa abramowicz. jonathan: this is going to be a good one. from new york city for our audience worldwide, good morning. this is "bloomberg surveillance ," live on bloomberg tv and radio. lisa abramowicz has stepped out of the studio for the day. that means it is me and tom keene. on the s&p, up 0.7%.

can we keep this on the rails? tom: we've got a busy day. we finally got interest rates higher with the equity markets, but also i think we can state after two hours the squeeze is so over. moments ago, silver and gamestop breaking down. it has been an ugly morning for the squeeze people. jonathan: the glory trades of the past week done. you asked a little bit earlier what it looks like when the short squeeze is over. this is what it looks like when a massive short squeeze is over, if there's no fundamental reason for the squeeze. what did we print last week? what were the dingdong highs of last week? tom: see folks, he's doing that. you need to understand, jon knows i bought 100 shares at $512.13. i've still not covered that trade, jon. i think there's hope. jonathan: brutal for anyone who

bought the top last week. you've talked about yields higher, a steeper yield curve. let's talk abthline for me over the last 24 hours.te united states of america who have received a dose of the vaccine than there are covid cases in the last 12 months. that tells you about progress we are already making. tom: we just talked to a doctor at johns hopkins who made clear we are seeing a rollover. it is better news, and i'm sorry, it evolves right into the tape we see. i would say the most important news of the day is to see what amazon and alphabet do after the close as they reaffirm that tech juggernaut we saw with apple earlier. jonathan: amazon headlining earnings after the close. we keep going back to it or get that second quarter of 2020 was absolutely found. with the -- absolutely

phenomenal. with the world shut down, those names generated terrific growth. we know where the earnings have come from. where do the earnings surprises come from in the back end of 2021? i think that's what we've got to think about a little more. tom: shout out to credit suisse, who i think really partitioned. they were staying with tech while they looked at all the other stuff. you were way out front on russell 2000. that has done well as well. jonathan: gamestop a big weighting in the russell. tom: i didn't know that. jonathan: philip to be around -- philip camporeale joins us now, jp morgan investment management. how comfortable are you with sticking with it? philip: we stuck through the tumultuous parts of last year, especially going into the fourth quarter, and we stuck with it through last week. this is the signal through the noise. if 2020 taught us anything, it was that they committed -- it

was to stay committed to the true signals rather than the noise. growth in 2021 is going to be better than 20/20, and that points to two trades. you mentioned a minute ago the russell 2000 is one of them. we had as much as 9% of our fund coming into january. you don't get fired for taking profits, so we took office on the russell in january. cut that to about 5%. but there is still the emerging equity trade. that is another procyclical trade, and we are doing that in a pretty unique way. we are doing it through china a-shares because the chinese domestic economy is becoming very popular, but also through our broader emerging-market economy tilt. small caps in emerging markets have been great year-to-date. jonathan: there's a difference between a cyclical trade and global macro and a cyclical trade to meskill he -- cyclical

trade domestically speaking in the united states. what are you leading to more? philip: you mention some great stats. about 1.3 million vaccinations per day. johnson & johnson coming online. that is a play on easy monetary policy and easy fiscal policy, as well as the whole country itching and scratching to get back to normalcy, which we see in some respect toward the second quarter of this year. that is a play on the u.s. and then the global recovery, because this isn't just a pandemic that takes place in the u.s., is through the procyclical emerging-market allocation. tom: where is the next there is no alternative? i've got to be on board, i've got to know it. is it still tech, or is the new

no alternative something different? philip: we are on hold on the federal funds rate, which is the cash rate, forever it seems like. so we may get some sort of change on quantitative easing towards the middle or end of this year. but in terms of the cash trade, that is going to continue to push risk assets higher, and i would agree with you. growth was the trade pre-pandemic. tom: what is it now? philip: i think now it is going to force the hands of folks back into things like small-cap and even tech. if tech was a winner before, it is going to be a winner again. in government bonds, we have very little government bonds. for fixed income professionals, that probably forces folks out the risk spectrum into diversified forms of credit, which most people don't talk about. i think one of the best things you guys mentioned, the curve is at the steepest level since 2016. that is a very good forward indicator for growth.

earnings this quarter already, do you realize 71% of companies are beating by at least one standard deviation? that is remarkable. we would look to continue that as we get through this year. tom: where do you see q2, q3, out into the end of the year? thank you, gina martin adams, for giving us so much support there. but what does the late-summer look like? is it a mystery, or do you have a real conviction? philip: we have a real conviction in the procyclical. you are not going to have anyone come on your program and say buy bonds over stocks. tom: no, they do that on "the real yield" with jon ferro. see it friday afternoon. philip: i've never met a bond person that doesn't like bonds. [laughter] trust me, i am a recovering bond person, so i know that. however, the real victory versus failure this year is what are

the sizes of your trade. tom: i totally agree. philip: and the security selection. and it is not quite yet for value overgrowth, but this procyclical it, i'm having double the amount of the emerging-market index versus the standard index. that is how they will determine true alpha and true success this year. but that could also determine failure because the benchmark doesn't move. you have to ask your manager, how big a move, and what particular stocks and bonds are you selecting? that is something we are convicted in through the rest of this year. these vaccines, not withstanding some left tail risk we don't know about, will bring people euphoric a back to the economy. jonathan: at some point, the fed spoils the party. the fed is very keen on telling us they will maintain this asymmetry reaction function.

they respond to the bad stuff. they won't respond to the good stuff. do you think that holds this year? philip: we think they are going to achieve significant progress towards their dual mandate by the end of this year. in 2013, there was a paper transfer. we all lived through it. -- there was a taper tantrum. we all lived through it. that was a real risk for people who wanted to take things off the table. a tapering of quantitative easing is a good thing. you heard it here first. it is a normalization process. as the curve goes steeper, so that is significant progress. where do we sign up for that? everyone wants significant progress. jonathan: let's do this. i will cut this clip. we will play it in four months when we start a real conversation about tapering. philip: hopefully it is sooner than that. [laughter] jonathan: great to catch up. phil campeoreale there.

here's what -- had to say about gamestop. "if they make money, find. if they lose money, that's on them." this fed does not want to respond to what we've seen in the last week. tom: i'm so glad you brought this up. we are bouncing off that right now. as we mentioned to joe weisenthal earlier, this is about robinhood and the cash bailout of the brokerage that affected this, that made this happen. i am fascinated where robinhood is in six months, one year. jonathan: and who bought the ipo, how that plays out. tom: i think what was required to get the millions of dollars of bailout will tell you what is required afterwards. joe was great on. he said there is a mystery to it. nobody really knows how that ipo direct or spac -- i still

don't get spacs, explain it to me over my next trick of choice -- over our next drink of choice. jonathan: where's lisa? tom: maybe she's in gloom therapy. i don't know. jonathan: just to throw cold water on the situation. lisa abramowicz is back with us tomorrow. this market is doing nicely. this market has snapped back. tom: did you walk to work today? jonathan: i did walk. you would be proud. tom: i am absolutely dazzled. jonathan: i went to the food stop you told me to go to -- the food shop you told me to go to. really stable walking down the sidewalk in new york with those. i'm not sure that's however when roles in america. i am not sure how those routes would play everywhere. they look really good. tom: i got them from the guy that was a farmer -- jonathan: i was talking to the

ladies in the newsroom about them. they said they like them, too. so there you go. tom: are you on clubhouse yet? jonathan: i spoke to someone yesterday, and marie -- yesterday, annmarie actually. she's on clubhouse. tom: scarlet fu is on clubhouse. we should get on clubhouse. jonathan: we should do a double act on clubhouse. tom: a freezing new york city -- that's for radio. jonathan: a freezing new york city. i've gotten used to that. it's going to be a great show, i promise you. [laughter] this is bloomberg. ♪ ritika: with the first word news, i'm ritika gupta. president biden intends to keep pushing for a large pandemic relief bill, even if he has to bypass senate republicans. the president and 10 gop senators have what one lawmaker called a very productive meeting on stimulus options.

a white house spokeswoman says there were areas of agreement, but also areas the republican plan doesn't address. the president once a package about three times as large as republicans are offering. it is an early milestone in the race to end the pandemic, but more americans have received at least one dose of the vaccine that have tested positive for the virus. as of yesterday, 26 .5 million americans had gotten one or both doses. the u.s. has been administering shots at a faster daily rate in any country in the world. in moscow, a russian court is deciding whether to jail opposition leader alexey navalny for up to three and a half years. prosecutors want to navalny to serve the term in prison instead of the suspended sentence he received for a full conviction in 2014. the court hearing comes just a couple of days after the second straight weekend of protests against vladimir putin. fourth quarter profit rose more than expected at united parcel service. the surge of online holiday

shopping boosted package volume and allow the company to raise prices. ups did forecast earnings for this year. global news 24 hours a day, on air and on bloomberg quicktake, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in more than 120 countries. i'm ritika gupta. this is bloomberg.

♪ >> we have demonstrated in the last year that we can come

together on a bipartisan package dealing with the covid crisis. in fact, we've done that not just once or twice. we've done at five times. and i am hopeful that we can once again pass a sixth bipartisan covid relief package. jonathan: the republican from maine, senator susan collins, following a very long meeting with the president, joe biden. good morning. alongside tom keene, i'm jonathan ferro. why are we not allowed in the same room? joe weisenthal is allowed in their. tom: it's the age factor here. jonathan: it's an age factor? tom: i've got special rules. jonathan: so why is joe allowed in? tom: joe is been sterilized. jonathan: can i touch on the price action. tom: touch on the price action, please. jonathan: futures up nicely, up

31 on the s&p 500. almost breaking 3800, up by about 0.8%. the 10 year up three basis points on the session. euro-dollar, $1.20. i would say take a look at euro sterling, comfortably below $0.90. the vaccine has started to emerge in the last couple of months, and it is in favor of the euro. tom: stronger euro, weaker yen. it is a really odd revolution around the euro, but i am watching met. $1.19 would be really interesting to me. gamestop bounces a little bit. silver, really textbook rollover here in prices. for those of you on radio, it is real simple. we go up to 30, come down, and it has been well contained and has a definite downside bias.

as we heard the senator from maine, we speak with emily wilkins of bloomberg government. emily, what is the ability for compromise here, to go from 1.9 trillion dollars down to $618 billion? can they find a middle point? emily: president biden and republican senators said they would continue negotiating. i don't think a bipartisan compromise is off the table yet based on what we heard the white house say last night. but the white house did emphasize that there are still areas of disagreement, and they still see the democrats holding budget reconciliation is a way to get this bill through. this because they are doing budget reconciliation doesn't mean you can't get republicans on board. it seems like negotiations are underway. of course, this is all coming as democrat leaders in the house and senate are beginning to move on the foundation for budget reconciliation. tom: the reconciliation is 50%

of the vote, not 60. emily: biden talks so much about being a unity president, someone who can work with democrats and republicans, and covid-19 is really a good issue for him to do that on because there is some bipartisan consensus there. it is going to be harder for biden to get the same amount of bipartisan consensus on a bill to raise the minimum wage or something in lines of immigration. there's also the fact that budget reconciliation, you can't just do anything through it. there are certain rules on what can and cannot be done. so there is a sense that if democrats do want to pass this big spending bill, they might not all be able to go through budget reconciliation. there might be a couple of

pieces that, just because of the rules, can't pass through it. jonathan: forgive me for asking a juvenile question, but where are the redlines? emily: i think as far as things that need to get done, they want to make sure that there is a. the biden adminstration has said that the danger is not having too much aid. it is having too little. the need to get something done. when democrats won those two senate races back in january, they did so in part on that pledge to give americans more funding, and they are also keeping in mind that in mid-march, the supplemental on and play meant insurance runs out. they want to make sure that they are able to continue providing funding past that point. jonathan: secretary ellen said go big -- secretary yellen said go big. 600 alien dollars is -- $600 billion for the democrats is clearly too little.

everyone gets around a table and has a conversation. i don't see major breakthroughs. emily: i think that is a fair analysis. it is hard to say exactly. democrats haven't come out and said specifically we are open to negotiating to $1 trillion, but we won't go past that point. we don't have anything that crystal-clear. you look at past negotiations, the numbers kind of went all over the place. i think the goal is to get something done in the near term, and it is to make sure that while they want to work with republicans, they also don't run into what happened in 2009, where they passed a stimulus bill, and a number of years later, it was look back on as not quite enough for what the economy did. -- economy needed. tom: the debate over the district of columbia is a new state. is it bipartisan? is it polarized? how does the hill feel about

the district of columbia as a state? philip: the district --emily: it is almost a guarantee that those two senators would be democratic senators. there's also been some suggestions about letting ndc with perhaps the state of maryland. tom: yeah, right. emily: the biden adminstration, i haven't heard them focus a great deal on d.c. at this point. i thing it is definitely a debate worth having, but i don't think is a priority. tom: do you see how she audibles that? jonathan: she's a professional. also very polite. i think that was a long-winded way of saying that is not really a relevant question in washington this morning. but she is nice to you. tom: it's floating out there. jonathan: emily, thank you. emily wilkins. emily: as a d.c. resident, it is a fair question. tom: varied -- jonathan: very diplomatic you are. as a d.c. resident, it is a fair question.

this is not a d.c. show. tom: we could make it a d.c. show. will worldwide, simulcast. jonathan: from washington, d.c. tom: how is the virus in london? jonathan: still locked down. cases heading lower, but the worry is over the new mutations in the threat to those already being vaccinated, and whether or not we can redevelop some of these doses that have been handed out to actually beat the variants as well. that is the big worry in the medical community right now. tom: but the quarantine and a hotel thing has drifted away? jonathan: when did that start? i saw that in a headline. i think i was on air when the headlines broke. tom: i don't know. there's talk about, if you are quarantining, you stay for 17

fun filled days. it would be a tough quarantine. jonathan: i am not sure if that's where they send you. from new york city this morning, good morning. alongside tom keene, i'm jonathan ferro. lisa abr (announcer) do you want to reduce stress? shed pounds? do you want to flatten your stomach? do all that and more in just 10 minutes a day with aerotrainer, the total body fitness solution that uses its revolutionary ergonomic design to help you to maintain comfortable, correct form. that means better results in less time. you can do an uncomfortable, old-fashioned crunch or an aerotrainer super crunch. turn regular planks into turbo planks without getting down on the floor. and there are over 20 exercises to choose from. incredible for improving flexibility and perfect for enhancing yoga and pilates.

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♪ jonathan: love bill murray, hate groundhog day -- hate "groundhog day." the worst movie ever made. tom: seriously? that's likely's essay and she loves tom brady -- that's likely lisa saying she loves tom brady. jonathan: seriously, the worst movie ever made. tom: 65 miles north of pittsburgh, they do groundhog day. scotland gets it. they do a snake thing. the isle of man has sink bridget stay and all of that -- has sink bridget's day and all of that. you guys are missing the party. jonathan: love pennsylvania. love the history. spent some time in the state a long time ago. tom: i bet you did. jonathan: i will talk about my

time at penn state another time. [laughter] let's give you the price action. really shouldn't have brought that up. tom: you should not have, but let's stay on this for radio and tv. jonathan: i think we will give it a minute. i think it was game weekend or something. isn't the beaver the mascot, that's right? tom: in-state college of pennsylvania, every weekend's game weekend. jonathan: there were go. futures up 0.8% on the s&p 500, on the nasdaq, 0.8%. rom is going toaine -- romaine is going to run you through the numbers in little bit. two tens and 30's, yields up. that's the bond market. let me finish on for exchange quickly. euro sterling, take a look at

this one. euro sterling lower. stronger pound, a break of 88 pence, down about 0.3% only session. this is the idea that the u.k. is further along in the race, that europe is further behind. that the you could reopen further, and a little more enthusiasm for european growth diminishing, and the u.k. story picking up. we can talk about that little bit later. now romaine is going to bail us out and get to the real stuff. romaine: alibaba reporting earnings. . they numbers are somewhat secondary. they pretty much beat across the board. the company saying that right now they can't make any assessment of the future with regard to regulatory antitrust issues. also said the ant ipo, can't really give any guidance on that

as well. tom: is jack ma going to be on the conference call? romaine: i don't think he's going to be on the conference call. but as you know, he's been laying a little bit low for a while now. ups will be on that conference call. the new ceo took over last june. ups, a lot of expectations about how they ship these smaller packages that are the bread-and-butter of e-commerce. we are getting also earnings from exxon mobil and a lot of other large cap names. apple at the bottom of your screen, keep an eye on that. they sold $14 billion in bonds and less than 100 basis points. the speculation is they are going to use that to buy back a lot of stock. let me give tom his update on gamestop, taking a leg lower. the silver stocks also lower. a u.s. mining company ipo last

year rallied 20%, pulling back a little bit. the focus is going to turn from small-cap stocks back to the big cap tech stocks. you mentioned amazon reporting after the bell, alf that reporting after the bell. -- after the bell, alphabet reporting after the bell. amazon is expected to get results after the bell. tom: the first loss in 40 years. are they putting out that headline to affect a merger with shed run -- with chevron? romaine: the speculation right now is that that would be a good idea, saying that accommodation of those two would make sense. exxon did stand by that dividend a little earlier last week, so we know that at least from a cash basis, they seem to be comfortable with easing investors. tom: and "groundhog day" the movie, i've seen it 14 times. i cry every time.

romaine: never seen it. jonathan: good for you. romaine: but i, bill barr a fan. -- but i am a bill murray fan. jonathan: me too. tom: i think the big focus -- romaine: i think the big focus is the return of big cap in the market. all of the nonsense about gamestop and some of these smaller cap stocks, it was fun, but at the end of the day, what supported this market? amazon, apple, netflix, tesla. keep an eye on those names. tom: killing it. now a timely interview. jon and i have been waiting for this. jonathan: thanks, romaine. tom: futures up 33. rates come back and move higher. subadra rajappa is at societe generale. they have an acute heritage of mathematics and bonds. we are thrilled we could -- we are thrilled she could join us. what do we need from tenure

yield to signal a break out of the range? subadra: for may come of that level is 1.20% intends -- for me, that level is 1.20% in tens. the struggle is going to be trying to get past 1.20%. i think 1.20%, 1.25% has brought a repercussions for assets. beyond 1.25% in tens, they could see risky assets. the fed is very keen on keeping rates in place so that you don't see the sort of rout in risky assets. jonathan: that is going to be a moving target, but i wonder where they are comfortable and where they start to get uncomfortable. we know from our reporting there are some spreads they are targeting. don't know what those levels are, but apparently they exist.

what do you think it is, the point of the curve they are focused on, the level of rates yield that makes them a little more comfortable? subadra: i think any rapid rise in yields is going to make them uncomfortable. the repricing and rates has to be very gradual, and something that they feel like they have a handle on. we don't want to see what we saw back in march, where you saw this unruly movement in yields, and the fed had to come and intervene. if you do see a rise in yields, and it is a gradual and open time as fundamentals improve, our forecast for year-end is 1.50% in 10 year come on the high-end of forecasts, contrast to last year, when we had the lowest forecast for 10-year gilts. so i think we will get there, but i think you have to be very gradual. a lot of that move in 10 year is going to happen in the second half. jonathan: what is positioning

like right now >> -- like right now? it seems like people are on the same page for once. things like the ranges for estimates are a lot tighter than it has been in years gone by. subadra: it is entirely because of fed intervention. fed chair jay powell last week basically shut down the idea of tapering asset purchases any time this year. they are sort of on track to continue to buy bonds, so i think for the most part, positioning is sort of favoring the range trade. when you start getting towards 1%, investors are broadly thinking this is probably a good place to go shortly market, and around 1.17%, 1.20 percent, you start seeing people cover short. tom: that's right where i wanted to go. the idea here of convexity or the dynamics of the full faith and credit.

if we go 1.11% to one point 20%, do we get accelerated tendencies? ken convexity factor in to these yields? subadra: you can get convexity. it is going to have to happen perhaps beyond 1.20%, but i think within 1.20%, you're going to see the range trade alive and well. tom: how will the fed respond at 1.20%? subadra: i don't think they are going to be concerned if the fundamentals warrant a rise in yields. we saw us get to 1.17% this year , a rising real yields which is what we saw this year, it is sort of a healthy reflation

trade. i think the fed is not going to be very concerned. i think they are much more concerned about dramatic moves higher or lower in yields. that is going to disrupt the risky assets and general conditions. jonathan: great to catch up. nailed the estimate of this bond market last year. great to catch up. subadra rajappa of socgen. later, cleveland fed president loretta mester be catching up with the audience about what is going on, and dallas fed president robert kaplan as well. tom: are you telling me the fed is not going to start affecting messages in their speeches? jonathan: if we get a 1.1 percent tenure because we reopen this economy -- a one point 2% -- a 1.2% 10 year because we reopen this economy? tom: they are going to say one sentence, and all of a sudden it begins to percolate, and the

question is what level does that happen at. jonathan: what they don't want is the pricing and tightening a lot once. they've tried to establish this so-called asymmetric reaction function and a more simple way of explaining that is just to say their message for all of us is that if things get worse, we are there to do more, and if things get better, we will step back for sometime. i think some people in fixed income still struggle on the asset purchase program. we really understand the story. do we understand the asset purchase program in the same way? i would say no. tom: i would agree, there is a real mystery out there to asset repurchase. i get that. i am talking about finally, today, even may be rest yesterday -- maybe even yesterday, we are seeing a real correlation of high-yield with these equities. jonathan: if we take ourselves to 1.50% on the u.s. 10 year and

we are still in the position we are in right now, i don't think the fed wants to see that. tom: did you see 1.50% -- did you say 1.50% or 1.15%? jonathan: 1.50%. tom: i was just doing "groundhog day." jonathan: terrible movie. i've gotten lots of messages about that. jen called it comedy? tom: a gentle comedy. jonathan: give me a break. tom: i like the marine carpet? -- the marine carpet -- the maroon carpet. -- the maroon carpet. this is bloomberg. tom: president -- ritika:

president biden and republican senators have agreed to continue negotiating, but has made it clear that he will pass a plan without republican support. mitch mcconnell did not mention her by name, but the amounts to representative marjorie taylor greene's lies and conspiracy theories. democrats are threatening action if republicans don't take action against her former serious remarks on social media posts. the northeast being hindered -- being hammered by a snowstorm. the worst is over. still, the city could end up getting as much is 20 inches of snow. rail and air service is still at a standstill, and roads are impossible at points. -- are impassable at points. bumble has filed for an ipo.

it could raise as $1 million. -- as much as $1 billion. bloomberg has learned that bumble may list around valentine's day. global news 24 hours a day, on air and on bloomberg quicktake, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in more than 120 countries. i'm ritika gupta. this is bloomberg. ♪

>> share prices are down across the entire sector, and that's because of covid.

now that we've got vaccines that are being rolled out, things are looking better, and our share price is up probably 40% to 50% from the lows of last year. as regards the strategy, i think the shareholders are very supportive. i think if anything, over the holidays there is a string sitting around the belief in the strategy. jonathan: it has been a tough time to be a shareholder in an energy player over the last several years. bernard looney there, bp's ceo. lisa abramowicz is back with us tomorrow. let's start with the majors first. futures up 29. we are up 0.8%. in the fx market, euro weaker. euro-dollar, $1.2032. we are down 0.25% lisa:. -- we are down 0.25%. on the u.s. 10 year, yields up

to 1.1117%. let's take a look at amc. we can take a look at gamestop. we can take a look at silver, too. this morning, they are all breaking down, and breaking down hard if you are looking at gamestop. tom: i can describe this on radio. they all have their own three technical characteristics. i will end with silver because we are going to get to mike mcglone. gamestop is making its second run down. it is nonlinear, and it has a plunge characteristic three times this morning, trying to get through the low of $137. amc has a life of its own. silver is different. silver right now is having incredibly difficult distribution of trying to make a higher high off of the recent low. that is not happening. mike mcglone joins us with

bloomberg intelligence. silver trades differently. it trades contained, and it is absolutely -- it is actually open right now for trading. what is the characteristic you see for silver down to $37? mike: it is living up to its reputation as the devils metal. silver volatility can do your head and sometimes. open and futures have increased a lot, which meant new longs, but it really jumped thursday before a lot of the news came out. i think we are hearing a lot of sharks battling sharks, hedge funds against hedge funds. the difference with gamestop is silver is fundamentally bullish. it was already long, and it is very hard to squeeze it. tom: goldman sachs reaffirming the idea of silver fundamentally bullish. the volumes of the last day and

the shorts that came in, and frankly the longs that were there ever so briefly, how do you mop up that volume? jon ferro and others call it the grossing -- call it de- grossing. how do you de-gross a tangible asset? mike: the thing happening with these reddit people is they are buying calls. you are renting a position they are more likely to expire before it goes up. if you're really wanting to own, you are supposed to just own it. we see the major institutions, the hedge funds just own that market and willing to probably buy dip -- probably buy dips. jonathan: build on that, what has driven the people in the equity market to also by the underlying market maker. you have this scenario where the

tail wags the dog, so to speak. can you build on that just a little bit? mike: i used to be an option trader. another way to get out of calls is to buy other calls. gamestop was a one-off. they targeted a good one, but for one hit, there's going to be 10 mrs. -- there's going to be 10 misses. it's sharks battling sharks. in this case, they just got lucky with gives top -- lucky with gamestop. jonathan: what is the difference between doing it with that and in the commodity market with silver? mike: gamestop for the runoff was about -- the run-up was about $1 billion. silver interests alone is $25 billion, and etf's is another $25 billion, so it is 50 times the size of gamestop. tom: what is a characteristic of

etf's with this volatility, 25 to 30? let's say we get back to 25 or even breached that. what is the character, for our viewers and listeners that own silver etf's? mike: ignore it. the buy-and-hold types, ignore it. this is for the traders. the rule we learned is you want to be the broker. let the traders kill each other, and most of them will lose. jonathan: mike, great th up. mike mcglone of bloomberg intelligence. it is just a different beast in the commodity market. tom: it is, and mike mcglone's expert at this. he's been quite good on the fundament a long call, as reaffirmed by goldman sachs and others. we've got to show the gamestop chart right now. for those of you on radio, all you need to know his one leg down, to legs down, a bounce and then another like down. each of these stories has a

different characteristic, a different bid and ask, a different drift. tom: i would add -- jonathan: i would add to that, we have seen several sequences with this story. the first is a really smart, well thought out trade. a stock that was very crowded on the short side, and a group of individuals identified that. that squeeze really generated some big profits. then we got into the next sequence of things. once you start driving this beast up to $500, the shorts are out, gravity will take hold. tom: i am going to say this with great respect because i don't have money at risk, but it is so hard to win at shorts. you need a good idea in a group going south, and a market that is going south. right now in some of these things, you don't have that. jonathan: i've got to say, i heard some really worrying commentary over the last week, things like hold the line. hold the line for who? for the likes of silverlake?

convert debt into equity and get out? mike: we try to avoid -- tom: we try to avoid the punditry here. the guy we talked to yesterday, david axelrod, the attorney from the securities and exchange commission, was just brilliant on what robinhood's optionality is forward. that is what we are trying to do here on radio and tv. jonathan: you don't want to get john ruhle on to see what he thinks? tom: who was that? jonathan: irresponsible is what that is. we can move on. should i get the price action of the moment? equity futures up 29 on the s&p. curve steeper. it is a really nice session emerging here. yields up, treasuries lower. in the fx market, the dollar coming back. what's thursday? tom: tots, 3:00 p.m. tots/chelsea.

jonathan: looking forward to that a little later this week. you know more about the schedule in the premier league then i do. tom: it's the lost derby. jonathan: good one. when is lisa back? chris chris auntie -- chris grisanti is next.

>> it is going to be more of a force to be reckoned with then perhaps it was before. >> it is probably going to end in tears for a lot of these retail investors and hedge funds. >> it is, from a financial stability perspective, still robust. >> we have not seen any evidence that these trades will cause any systemic risk. >> if you don't reestablish functioning wall street stability, it is disastrous for the economy. >> everyone is looking for it bogeyman, but i think we will find that nothing has really