♪ >> from the heart of were innovation, money and power collide in silicon valley and beyond, this is bloomberg technology with emily chang. ♪

coming up in the next hour, another day and another crypto roller coaster. after a weekend slide, bitcoin boosted monday from yet another treat a elon musk saying he is in talks with miners about their energy usage and what he has heard so far is promising. billionaire investor ray dalio says bitcoin's biggest risk is its success. plus, hackers and their demands are getting more brazen by the day. bloomberg learned at least one u.s. company paid $40 million to get its data back. we talk about one of the most dangerous cyber threats on the horizon with nikesh arora, ceo of palo alto networks. virgin galactic sends a test flight into space carrying two pilots. space tourists are next. we will chat about the latest.

first we have to talk about bitcoin, the cryptocurrency rebounding from its blocks light over the weekend with prices on track for the biggest gain in more than three months, climbing as high as $38,000 at one point. let's talk about the biggest moves of the day, not just the day but saturday and sunday, it has been another big bout of volatility in the last few days. >> does anyone else have the sense of deja vu, every talking about bitcoin raising over $30,000 because of an elon musk tweet. we have talked about that more than once over the last few days. what we got over the weekend was extreme volatility, gains and losses driven chiefly by elon musk. the latest in the last hour is elon musk saying he wants to comment and discuss with bitcoin miners about publishing publicly the energy use behind bitcoin

mining. that seems to have given support to bitcoin on monday along with all the other voices in the market. emily: talk to us about this new volatility. it is starting to blend together. what is standing out here? joe: it really is interesting. there's a lot of things going on right now. lots of moving parts in addition to the several weeks of weakness that we have seen in bitcoin and also in tech in general, qqqs, all the red-hot momentum text talks that were blazing hot after the pandemic hit, in a slow down. it is interesting, though, this narrative, bitcoin, oh, is decentralized. people like the idea that elon is getting together with the miners, maybe it will alleviate the green and esg concerns, but

there does seem that there is a risk, the idea that there is a north american mining council that meets together with the richest person in the world talking about esg standards. it may be good in the short term but you have to wonder how it feels, whether it undermines the bitcoin narratives. ed: and risk to the financial system. you have the fed consensus in the conference saying that it posed a risk to basically the global economy, and also interesting to hear the interplay between asset classes. microstrategy's ceo saying that have issued that to fund purchases of cryptocurrency. to bring cryptocurrency onto the balance sheet through issuing debt, it is absolutely fascinating. emily: i want to bring in what ray dalio said earlier today, because it is having a big ripple effect. take a listen to his point about bitcoins biggest risk.

ray: i think bitcoins greatest risk is its success. the more that we create savings in it, the more you might say, i would rather buy bitcoin then a bond. personally, i would rather have bitcoin than a bond. the more that happens, then it goes into bitcoin and it doesn't go into the fed and then they lose control of it and so, yeah, that is a risk. emily: joe, what do you make of that he? joe: is exactly right, the biggest risk to bitcoin in some sense. you have to go back to the very beginning even beyond the creation of bitcoin and the anarchist community that wanted to create a form of money that could not be controlled, could not be touched by governments, could move seamlessly over the

internet, it is anarchist technology, and what we have seen in recent years is that this technology has tried to put on a suit and be accepted by wall street input into packages. in some countries they have etfs and it has repositioned as a wealth management product that will protect you against inflation, but at its core, it cannot be controlled. setting aside bitcoins wild --, that it will take money from bonds, i am not sure, more and more money is going into money that can't be controlled by the federal government. essentially will start to see more pushback. so i think he is exactly right. emily: we will talk about this a little more ed ludlow, thank you so much. for joining us. . . i want to bring in spencer bogart. you and i have talked about many times over the years, and you maintain that this market is very different from 2018, that the volatility is different.

tell me how so. >> in a lot of ways, it is similar. we have seen as bitcoin raises it is not going to be a smooth path, there will be volatility underway. particularly when the market gets very hard and very significant appreciation, we get headlines that present headwinds for bitcoin going forward. the biggest difference today is that we have a lot more use cases. if you rewind to 2017 and 2018, there was a major question as to whether anything in crypto beyond bitcoin would actually work and whether people would continue to value bitcoin going forward. now that question has been definitively answered and people value bitcoin and they are likely to continue doing so going forward. beyond that, we have a plethora of naturalist robust infrastructure for bitcoin, but really a whole suite of assets emerging, with bitcoin as the original crypto asset, creating all sorts of new things.

joe: but is it good for bitcoin that the third richest man in the world is meeting over the weekend with a coalition of north american miners to set standards and to sort of coordinated activities? spencer: it is neither good nor bad. the idea that you learn will create a centralizing force find it is not going to work. there was drama in the community about whether or not bitcoin should accept a proposed change for how it works and how it functions. that included many of the largest insiders in the industry and even that attempt failed. so the idea that elon musk will somehow wrangle control is wrong. these are discussions that are worth having and worth exploring. emily: there may be an underappreciated trend at play, and that is efi.

, spencer explained to the normies what this means and why this could be such a tight tectonic shift in the market that is already shifting dramatically. spencer:. spencer: i am glad you asked. or or five years ago, from a venture capitalist perspective, everything we were doing was around bitcoin and its growing ecosystem. over the past few years, in contrast, everything has been oriented around defi. it is the future of finance. digital infrastructure for digital financial services digital assets. this is where really we are seeing all of the adoption and contraction and all the really entrepreneurial activity harnessed within this defi ecosystem. fintech is digital tech with the same antiquated

structure, whereas defi is building a new structure from the ground up. financial services built on networks like ethereum. they are an aggregate generating between $10 million and $50 million a day in revenue. there is very significant adoption and traction within defi broadly. joe: i have been trying to get my head around it, and one night -- what i see is extraordinarily technology, super advanced, where miners extracting value. but what is the point? all i see is a lot of treating of coins and it is more quaint things like balancing and lending coins. where does this bleed into the economy where it starts to

compete with transactions that i get from a banker? spencer: you are right, you rattled of a few of the things being created for defi. these networks don't close at 5:00 p.m. or on weekends or the holidays. these are services where you can always access your capital. you can always get the financial services you need. in contrast to our financial system, they are not capable of discriminating based on race, gender or religion. this is a leveling of the playing field for both bankers and consumers. it is a win for everyone, because financial services are a component of everyone's life. having them more accessible and equitable is good for the world. emily: spencer, thanks for breaking that down for us. we will continue this conversation, i am sure.

joe weisenthal, great to have you. coming, colonial pipeline, solarwinds and microsoft exchange, some of the biggest most high-profile cyber attacks in history happened in the last few months. we will catch up with the palo alto networks ceo to talk about how companies can better protect themselves, next. this is bloomberg. ♪

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emily: some of the biggest acts in history happening in the last six months have investors watching fiber stocks. we look at how that has played out lately in the market. katie, what are you seeing? katie: despite some high-profile

hacks, colonial pipeline, for example, cybersecurity stocks are lagging broader tech stocks year to date. that tech stock index is up 6% year to date while cybersecurity stocks are still in the red. however, they are making up ground thanks to palo alto networks, this company makes up 10% of that cybersecurity index. this stock is on a tear lately, after it raised revenue and eps forecasts last week. it is projecting a healthy sales growth, 23% for this fiscal year, 19% in fiscal year. that has seen the stock rise 8% this week alone. but it is still trading well below its average price target, about $140 after it was raised a 15% in february. for context, aloe to networks closed today at about 300 64

dollars. that is a lot of ground to make up even with the strong forecasts. . so this will be one to watch. emily: katie, thanks so much. we have the chairman and ceo of pella eltel networks -- palo alto networks, nikesh aurora. your third-quarter billing jumped 27%. tell us what is driving the growth? does it have to do with all the hacks happening and increased demand for companies to protect themselves? does it have to do with remote work? what is happening? nikesh fish it is both of those things. the pandemic drove two major things. what is happening is people rv architecting everything to try and get us to a place where they can be equitable for employees to continue working from home.

you add to that the fact that everything was technology-enabled, we had to get our revenues to come from tech-enabled platforms because the physical world was shut down. there was more reliance on technology. now we have the unfortunate multitude of hacks around us which are creating awareness around security and thus driving buying in the security sector. emily: helping drive awareness, of course, colonial pipeline microsoft exchange. is there something more dangerous about these acts or is it more of the same, for hackers simply getting more brazen? nikesh: with the constant adoption of technology everywhere, we are trying to make our systems open to our consumers to access us from everywhere well, if you open your access to systems from anywhere you have access to hackers as well. the hackers are getting more

sophisticated. it has gone from being a hobby. there is real economic value, you can sit in a remote location, hacks somebody and demanded to be paid in bitcoin with no traceability. so they are getting more brazen. and they are getting smarter. . that allows them to penetrate multiple companies and multiple governments around the world and then decide when and where to direct their attention from an economic value perspective. emily: colonial pipeline paid the hackers in that case more than $4 million bloomberg has reported. when it comes to this insurance company in the united states. emily: we are reporting they paid $40 million in ransom just to get their data back. is that normal for a large company to pay a price that high? nikesh: it depends how you compute the price. i am not a fan because it encourages more ransomware to happen. having said that, when these people have gone in your system,

they have basically crippled your entire business. you have to decide how many days to shut down your business, and how many days you can afford to have the business shut down, and then how long is the recovery cycle. you add that up, i think that is what people have justified as appropriate, kind of like business interruption insurance. but you still have to go back, shut down the system, clean it all out and probably re- architect the security architecture. emily: have you seen of ransom payments and demands increasing over the last year do you see them continuing to increase significantly or exponentially? nikesh: they have increased. last year i think the highest demand we saw was $20 million. we have already seen a $15 million ask this year and we are not even in june yet. the demands are going up. it is also correlated to the certification of the actors. they are understanding what it

takes to cripple your infrastructure. they're asking you to pay for your data, they are trying to sell the data on the dark web. this is a big problem that requires everyone in business to pay attention to their architecture and make sure that as they create more online capabilities for their business, they are making sure that the security goes in lockstep with that capability. emily: you launched a trusted network security to address the new hybrid workforce. talk to us about what is different with this from other offerings on the market. we have. nikesh:. nikesh: been privileged to be able to have -- we have been able to be on the leading edge of security products, from cloud security to network security. you saw the white house articulated where you basically do not trust any piece of the infrastructure, and you make sure everybody is asked to validate as they are trying to access your system.

fundamentally it is the principle of zero trust. our network architecture, we just refreshed it, we launched it to make sure it complies with every aspect of zero trust. it is deployed by thousands of customers around the world. we feel like we're giving them the capability to protect themselves. we are going to extend that capability to a lot of security businesses. so it is a situation where we have to take all these cybersecurity risks seriously and it requires a fundamental zero trust architecture across the board. emily: you don't have to look very far to see state actors like russia getting more brazen. what is the threat level when it comes to state actors in particular, whether it is russia or china, over this next year? nikesh: it is an uneven playing field. if you can bring to bear the capabilities of a nationstate against a company, against a particular piece of the government, it is a major

attack. . we have to not only prepare the individual entities and companies we also have to have a national policy making sure that security is paramount, especially where we have mission-critical assets. we have to make sure they are tested multiple ways from sunday. emily: all right. fascinating. so much to watch. thank you for breaking down this complicated and quickly evolving landscape for us, palo alto networks chair and ceo nikesh arora. good to have you back. plenty more coming up this hour and this week on "bloomberg technology." on tuesday, video sharing company vimeo goes public. we will hear from the ceo. and amazon will hold its annual shareholders meeting, where investors want to know how the company will move forward without jeff bezos at the helm. and another lunch for spacex.

the rocket blasts off with the 29th batch of satellites for the companies broader network. and we look at results from salesforce, vm ware, hp inc. among others. just a few reasons to stay with us. keep it here. ♪

♪ emily: other stories we are watching. closing arguments have wrapped in this case. lawyers for the popular videogame fortnite made their page that apple has an unfair monopoly by taking a 10% of purchases. the apple lawyers maintained that their standard is the industry standard and it has improved quality for

developers and users. the california judge says she hopes to deliver a ruling soon but did not specify a date. amazon is said to be getting closer to a deal to buy film studio mgm holdings. details of the agreement said to be worth $9 billion could be announced as soon as this week. amazon has been under pressure to acquire more programming as rivals such as hbo max and moore continue to bolster their own catalogs. peloton announced it will open its own u.s.-dedicated factory in 2023 in ohio. it is expected to create about 2000 local jobs. the ceo says the factory will lead to lower prices as the company continues to push into europe and other markets. coming up, industry and world leaders have been scrambling to find a solution to the chip shortage. we will speak to renee james

about the production side of this issue. her thoughts also as a long-term veteran of intel and former president. this is bloomberg. ♪

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emily: welcome back to "bloomberg technology." i am emily chang in san francisco. semiconductor stocks are coming back after they fell 13% of their-year high. katie has been digging into chips in particular. what are you seeing? edie: you saw the s&p 500 1% higher. stocks 101.7% higher. but your runaway winner was those stocks, the semiconductor index up 2.3% for the day.

semis ran into a rough patch as supply issues really started to crunch. you saw several weeks of decline for the stocks. but on the year-to-date basis, we have seen that index overtake the s&p 500 in terms of 2021 performance. those indexes are now neck and neck for the year, both up 11.7% give or take. in addition to some of those bottlenecks starting to ease, the technical picture is helping as well. you look at this index, it rose back above its 50-day moving average. it spent several weeks bouncing around below that.

the bullish casework semiconductor stocks, emily. emily: katie, thanks so much. we'll talk more about chips right now from our renee james, ampere computing chairman and ceo. she is also the -- she was also the president of intel where she worked for decades. you know more about this more than just about anyone. i want to start with this cheap startup that you have launched. chip startups are rare for a reason, it is an incredibly expensive industry to compete

in, it takes years to build up credibility with customers. where are you and where is ampere computing? do you think you have crossed the threshold into the bigger leagues? renee: i don't know if we have completely crossed over. first of all, thank you for having us on. ampere computing is doing high-performance microprocessors. so we are focused on building the higher performing, most power efficient microprocessors for the cloud and data center. it is a tough business, and a lot of people, go into it thinking that it is about design and a it ends up being about not only the design, but the supply and the customers and the entire business. so i think we had a couple of advantages given the leadership team had a lot of experience in the business, and we have had wonderful investors. emily: as you alluded to, you spent most of your career at intel you know the company its resources better than almost anyone else. you were the top-ranking women in intel's history. what makes you want to take them on or think that you can, because you know so much? [laughter] renee: i would just say i am not taking intel on. intel as a company, i know a lot about it and i have a lot of affinity for. what we're doing is building

what comes next. the history of this industry has always been from mainframes to minis to pcs test servers. there is always a platform for what comes next. when i left intel, i thought who is going to do something next? if not us, then who? i was fortunate enough to raise the money to get the business off the ground. three and a half years, we have two in market, outperforming -- thank you, ian king at bloomberg who wrote about them -- and we also have the heart and soul of semiconductors that builds the core engine and innovation of the platform. so i would say we are more forward leaning towards what comes next. emily: good shout out to ian king who keeps us very well informed on what is happening in your industry. i have to ask about the shortage. what do you think is happening there what we have been

reporting,, is there anything that has been missing in the narrative in terms of why this is so bad, why there were such a mismatch between supply and demand, and when we will be out of this? renee: i have a slightly different perspective about it. do we have a shortage? yes we do. i was lucky to have been in the industry long enough to see tightening starting. so i went to the investors and i said, hey, we have to put capacity in place to grow the business at the rate we want to. that said, this is different. this is not a cyclical shortage, it is the growth of the industry , the fundamental growth of semiconductors. we know that because we are seeing new sectors emerging and new users coming to semis for the first time, the auto sector, artificial intelligence,

and new sectors of computing -- not the pcs or the phones. certainly 5g. all of that is contributing to what i would say is the fundamental growth in semiconductors. it is here to stay. that's great news. bad news is we didn't put capacity in place to meet that growth. i think we all were surprised in the pandemic how we continued in semis, to grow through it. i am excited about this administration's approach to create an environment to put more capacity in place, because this is long-term. we need more capacity in the industry, and i think that is an exciting thing especially for me, where we are in our growth cycle, that there is expansion happening. emily: is there anything that you think the ceos of the big companies should be doing differently whether it is intel or nvidia or qualcomm, in order

to ease the shortage, or is the solution something else? renee: i am not sure they can ease the shortage, because they don't own all the supply. i am certain that intel are doing the things they can do. what i would say is that the supply chain is very focused on the big players. because of the history of the industry, 10 players made up the predominance of the revenue, in the semiconductor business. one thing we have to acknowledge is that the demographic has changed. there are a lot of medium-sized companies and even smaller companies coming into the business. the technology is so good. tsmc is not the only company, there is also the supply chain. it enables companies like ampere to exist. so the supply chain, we need

more help from all the players along the way to be able to diversify and support companies at a smaller scale. the entire business is focused on supporting the big guys. the big guys can pay a lot for capacity, they can handle surcharges in the shortage. that is one of the things i think, through the administration, things we can do with the chip factories. those are super important to the long-term health of u.s. semis, which is the underpinning of a lot of sectors in our economy. emily: i recently spoke to the ceo of amd, the other of the two female chip industry executives. i am curious why women at the top of your industry are so incredibly rare, and whether you are seeing signs that that is changing. renee: we all loved your book, by the way. [laughter] emily: thank you. renee: i saw your interview and i thought, there is really just

two of us. thank you. you have covered it. i think it is changing, because everybody is working on diversity, even the companies that have not historically been as diverse. we are all doing a better job at it. you talked about mentorship with lisa. i agree with her, both of us weren't mentored quite legendarily. . i worked with my mentor until his passing. it has gotten easier but there is still a lot of work to do. the diversity numbers of ampere, we are a small company -- i guess people would say we are medium-sized -- but we follow it and work on it. you have to have a diverse slate. you have to work for it every single day, because it still is difficult for women to break in. emily: it takes work every day. thanks for reminding us and

doing that work yourself. renee james, ceo of ampere computing. thanks so much for joining us. coming up, not all back to the office glands are created equal. after the break, which workers might struggle more than others when it comes to returning to the office. that's next. this is bloomberg. ♪

emily: endemic-era work from home is winding down, but bosses might be happier about it than workers. according to a survey, senior leaders are more likely to give returning to the office as positive than workers.

joining us is the ceo and cofounder of truity. talk to us about the disparities you are seeing between what buses want and what workers want. molly: thanks for having me. we trace those differences to individual differences that we saw in general, men were more enthusiastic about returning to the workplace than women were. men are also the over -represented in executive roles. that was part of it. another part was personality traits. we saw a difference in how extroverts feel about coming back to work than introverts. extroverts can't wait for the interaction. introverts have been feeling more upbeat and more productive at home and not looking forward to coming back to the office environment. emily: when you look at the

companies putting their feet in the ground, google, for example, saying they will allow hybrid work for some people indefinitely. do you think plans could backfire, that it could lead to a loss of talent, or will these companies find the people that want to go back to the office? and find the culture that they need? molly: these 9-to-5 policies served a particular type of worker. the type of worker that likes to be in a busy environment, the more extroverted person that feeds off corporation. and that's great. but you need all types of workers in the company. you will not go very far with just one type of worker. the white different departments functioning in different worlds and doing well and you have to make sure your policies work for everyone. especially as we have

millennials and gen z coming into the workforce, they expect a little more acknowledgment of their individual work styles. they are much more self-aware and much more individualistic and talented people from those generations will be looking for a work environment where they can be the most productive. . emily: you also found a gulf between men and women managers and non-managers. tell us about that and how businesses can close that gap? molly: we did find a big gulf between men and women. i think that has to do with the caregiving responsibilities women have shouldered during the pandemic. we don't know really how far out from the pandemic we are. we think our kids will be back in school by fall but we are not 100% sure, so we saw women citing general anxiety about returning to work. in thinking about that, please let her make sure that we have policies that work for working

parents, and we are not expecting people to be automatons with no commitment, we want flexibility where people can have that work-life balance if they need it. emily: i know a lot of parents who are praying for full-time school in the fall. molly owens, ceo and cofounder of truity, thank you so much for joining us. later this hour, ready for liftoff. shares in virgin galactic heading skyward after the company completes its first spaceflight. first, propulsion for beyond meat, rising after bernstein upgraded the stock to outperform. also getting a boost from a supermarket chain in u.k. announcing it is partnering with the plant raised brand to launch a line of ready meals. that is next. this is bloomberg.

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>> fire. [explosion] emily: you are watching images of virgin galactic's vessel which successfully flew a test flight from new mexico into space. the company stock jumping as much as 21% following the launch which carried two pilots on board. that is the biggest one-day gain for virgin galactic since february. the ceo told bloomberg about what the mission means for launching trips into orbit. >> we had three big points we were trying to do in this flight. the first was to attest a new set of digital controllers that we have for pilots to give them

tighter steering. it worked flawlessly, really went straight up to space. second thing was to ensure that we had the electromagnetic interference issue that had delayed us from earlier in the year. all the work we had done on that completely eliminated that problem. and finally, we collected data that we sent over to the faa. . we believe that will give us a great opportunity for them to analyze it and hopefully clear our license for commercial flights. >> it is guy in london. so what is the journey between now and the license being achieved? what needs to happen? what milestones does that have to achieve? michael: this is our third flight to space with humans, first from the state of new mexico, which is a beautiful place to look back down upon the

planet. what follows next, we have three more flights in our test flight program. over the next one will have a full crew of specialists in addition to our two pilots, followed by a repeat, but we are asking our founder, richard branson, to come and test the estimate experience for us. who better to do that? both of these will happen in the summer. that will be followed by our final test flight planned with the italian air force, showcasing how our system is used for microgravity science research as well as for professional astronaut training. that will likely happen in late-summer and early fall? >> let's get to the in-flight training. . how healthy do you have to be? what kind of training does there have to be for a regular person to book a flight? michael: what is unique about virgin galactic is we take the first 50,000 feet or so with airplane technology. so we take up horizontally on our mothership, and then from

there, the spaceship drops and rockets up, so it is powerful but reasonably smooth in the heaviest part of the atmosphere, just like you would in a commercial airliner. it is important to be safe but it is not something that you need years of training. we recommend people stay flexible because they will be moving around in a weightless environment and looking out the windows, but as long as people are taking care of themselves, lots and lots of people will be able to go. guy: so not much training. alix was a little bit concerned. [laughter] in terms of this venture going forward, michael, this is a question that i am surprised i am asking that i guess you have to think about it going forward, what is the path of

profitability? when do you think it is profitable once you get it up and running and you get through the initial phase of this and it becomes more commonplace, will you be making money off this? michael: the first thing is to finish the test flight program and then move into commercial service. we believe this will be a supply constrained business for some time. the demand will be well out front of our ability to build and scale the feet up for a while, and as such, it will be reasonably expensive as it goes forward. 600 people generally had a price of $250,000 each. we have not announced what the price will be going forward. we do see pricing of around $600,000 for our microgravity research flights, but again, we have not put pricing out for that private us much market. emily: virgin galactic ceo

michael colglazier there. joining us to talk about this is ed ludlow. pretty important flight this summer, richard branson will be on it. talk to us about virgin galactic now ranks among the other spaceflight companies, whether spacex or blue origin. ed: there is two sides of it. the first is in testing. this is the first time virgin galactic has been able to get into orbit. compare that to spacex and blue origin who are building up relationships with regulatory authorities, and you heard virgin galactic has some ways to go with regards to regulation. the other thing is the nurse model. virgin galactic is all about taking private citizens to space. the first, its founder, richard branson.

but also they plan to offer orbital lunar and orbital trips in the next 24 months or so. and also offering trips up to the international space station. you can go to spacex right now and email their team and ask or inquire about a team into space. the difference with virgin galactic is they are focused. they don't have other commercial activities like starlink with spacex or other operations like blue origin and spacex are vying for. emily: meantime, you broke a story that tesla is testing lid ar from a company, which is interesting because elon musk has pushed back on the use of the system. tell us what we know? ed: we know that tesla and the company has an agreement where tesla can use their tech for testing and development.

we don't believe it goes beyond that. we think tesla could be benchmarking their self-driving system against the technology. as you said, elon musk has been very critical of the need for lidars. wares academics go, no, it is a central part of the self-driving autonomy. so there is confusion on twitter and reddit forums, because that tesla vehicles have been spotted in the world using the lidar systems. and we set the record straight, while tesla may not believe in lidar, they are certainly experimenting with it. emily: and tesla shares are up today, almost 4.5%. ed ludlow, check out more on bloomberg from ed and the team. thank you for joining us on this edition of "bloomberg technology." tuesday, we will hear from the ceo of vimeo after her company

starts trading in its ipo. statement for that. i am emily chang in san francisco. this is bloomberg. ♪

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>> very good morning and welcome to daybreak australia. sophie: we are counting down to asia's major market open. >> good evening from bloomberg's headquarters, and new york i'm shery ahn. technologies shares lead shares as inflation shares are easing.