>> from the heart of where innovation, money and power collide, in silicon valley and beyond, this is bloomberg technology with emily chang. ♪ emily: coming up in the next hour, chairs of the senate subcommittee. senator klobuchar makes her case

against some of the biggest tech giants of our time. monopolies, antitrust and more in our one-on-one interview. plus, space is amazon's next big push. the company expects a surge in cloud related computing contracts worth tens of millions of dollars. and we will meet the cofounder and ceo of figma, who believes creative collaboration can happen anywhere. although stories in a moment. but bipartisan support out of first, washington where president biden celebrated a tentative deal with a group of republicans and democrats on the $579 billion infrastructure plan he says is now moving forward. pres. biden: we will see what happens in the reconciliation bill, the budget process. if we get some compromise there and if we can't, if we can >> see if i can -- and if we can't, see if i can get the

democrats to a position. emily: we will see how it plays out in the markets. bloomberg's ed ludlow, take it away. the s&p 500 and nasdaq slight outperformance of technology shares. a weaker dollar. static yields on the benchmark 10 year treasury note. in terms of the names catching a bid, if we look at the companies on the move, i benefit from the economic reopening and infrastructure spending. the most since mid-march, a company that is the biggest maker of infrastructure equipment in the world. no wonder it is higher on optimism for an infrastructure bill. also gaining, tesla, released from performance. up 10% in the last three sessions. nuclear driver, but green across the board -- no clear driver, but green across the board for cryptocurrencies. emily: meantime, the house on

day two of the lengthy debate over legislation to challenge big-tech. now the question is, what will the senate do? senator klobuchar laid out a big vision to reform antitrust law and take on companies like google and facebook. i sat down with senator klobuchar to ask about the reality of getting new legislation passed and what she sees that is so problematic about some of the world's most innovative companies. sen. klobuchar: we have some great products out there and no one wants to get rid of them, whether it is fitbits, iphones, whether it is being able to order your groceries online, so let's start with that. these companies have done very well. i am pleased that they have been successful and employed a bunch of americans. back, at the same time, our country has always rejuvenated capitalism. we have always said, ok, these are good products, like we did with at&t, but at some point, if

there is no competition, these companies are allowed to become these monopolistic dominant providers. in the case of at&t, no one wanted to destroy at&t. they just wanted to make sure that new competitors can develop, like, at the time mci. ,it brought long-distance rates down. we got cell phone market go from one big cell phone that fit in gordon gekko's briefcase in the movie "wall street" where we are today. i think we need to look at this the same way. you have situations where you have gateway companies that dominate so they can literally tell people who want to advertise on them in the case of google or facebook, look, i am sorry, we are going to charge you for that. we just had a big story on the app store in google, and we found out that they are charging spotify or match.com 30% of the revenue that comes in, but they don't charge it to other big companies. they get to pick. i don't think that's how a competitive marketplace works.

so i look at it as, i left capitalism, that i'll is believed that you need to put some guards around it when it comes to ensuring capitalism works. by the way, i am not alone in this. adam smith, the godfather of capitalism and theory related to economics that our founding fathers subscribe to, he says the same thing. yes, we want to have capitalism , but always watch out for what he calls "the standing armies of monopolies." that is why we have the sherman act, that is where we have the clayton act, and we need to be as sophisticated as the companies and ceos that run them when it comes to fostering new entrants in the market. emily: when you look at apple, google, facebook, amazon, where do you see the best case for regulatory action or breakup? sen. klobuchar: everything has to be on the table. by the way, it is not just tech.

we see the same thing in travel, in pharma, in the ag industry. you look at each industry as it is, and in this case, there were a bunch of decisions made over the years that allowed for things like facebook buying whatsapp and instagram. now when we look back at it and we read mark zuckerberg emails where he said we would rather buy than compete, and another one where he said these are competitors that one day could be disruptive to us and then goes out and buys them, tech is supposed to be about disruption. in the way, economic capitalism is about disruption, you get new market entrants. that is why you have to both change the standards i believe, for looking at mergers going forward, invest in thin forces. by the way, they bring a bunch of money back for the taxpayers when you allow them to do their job -- invest in an forces. and then look back at the ones

where you see gatekeepers have highly concentrated power and yes, breakups divestiture should always be on the table. that the things we agreed to in the past are actually being enforced and the whole idea is not meant to publish success. it's to make sure we have more success in the future. emily: your antitrust approach would strengthen antitrust legislation across industries. the house is taking a more specific approach targeted at a handful of the tech companies we are talking about. you said you plan to introduce smaller bills as well. will you introduce a companion bill to representative cicilline's proposal, to representative jayapal proposal? sen. klobuchar: yes, we are looking at those and have already put forth companion bills to some of my proposals including increasing the merger fees which has passed through the committee.

and we expect that it will pass through the house since it already passed the senate. that is over 100 million dollars for the agency to hire lawyers to take on the biggest companies the world has ever known. i am seriously in discussion with republicans about a number of their proposals. i think you will see companion bills, they may not be identical, but very similar. i command representative cicilline for what he has done. i think we also need, and i know he does believe this, to look at other industries as well. to me, given that we are a small but mighty group that works on this, democrats and republicans, we don't believe there is a monopoly on good ideas when we are dealing with monopolies. we have been very good with senator buck and senator lee about trying to work together on this and finding common ground.

that means tech specific bills, but also broader bills. emily: the white house has said the president is encouraged by the bipartisan work on these issues. i know that is really important to you. but republicans and democrats seem to want action for different reasons. how far does that bipartisanship go? where could that break down when it comes to republicans? sen. klobuchar: they are going to have to look at all of the bills and make decisions. obviously, some of them are coming at tech from a different place than i am. i don't agree that there is some kind of bias politically with tech. but i have been actually very impressed at some of our hearings that that is not what they have been emphasizing. when we are hearing at home about technology, about amazon and google, it was not the subject of the discussions, it was more monopolies. the hearings are almost entirely focused on what is going on with potential abuse of monopoly power. so i am hoping we can come together on this instead of going off on tangents in the arguments for taking this on. i think the proof is in the

pudding. several bipartisan bills in the house, bipartisan work already passed the senate, with increasing the merger fees on all mergers. bipartisan work on taking on the ability of newspapers and news organizations to combine their negotiating power against tech, given that we have seen closures of newspapers at an alarming rate breaking down the , entire investigative process at the local level that we need to maintain a democracy. that is bipartisan in both houses. there is a lot of bipartisan work going on. then you have the biden administration putting in lina khan, people that understand the issues well. all that bodes well for moving ahead on this with both branches of government. emily: does this revelation from propublica today that peter thiel accumulated $5 billion in

a roth ira that was named after senator, to create a retirement account for the middle class? this in part an investment on facebook, what is your level of outrage on this, and this congress need to act? sen. klobuchar: in general, i will take it even outside of that, there are too many people that have been using things that are may be well meant in the tax code, and they use them to make a lot of money at the expense of other people. it is not fair. that is why as a presidential candidate and in my role as a u.s. senator, i have advocated and will continue to advocate for changes to the tax code. i completely disagree that the corporate rate should go all the way down to 21%. there were some of us in the middle, even when trump was president, saying if you're going to go down, at least go to 26%. you have outrageous situations with carried interest and with other parts of the tax code that

have allowed the wealthy to get wealthier. you lose respect for the government when your average citizen out there, taxpayer, and we don't want that breakdown of trust. we lose money that we should be bringing in for important services. to make matters worse, they have so much lobbying power and people basically fall prey to their lobbying efforts. that includes tech. it is all of that synergy and think the time has come to put the truth out there and i'm glad that president biden has been willing to talk about changing elements of the tax code that are unfair. and the use of the roth ira, the roth provisions in this way, to me, is just one more example of that. emily: my exclusive interview with senator amy klobuchar. we will be watching for that bipartisanship. coming up space gets smart. , how amazon web services is providing earth to space

services for their customers, including nasa, and the future of the space cloud. that's next. this is bloomberg. ♪

emily: well, it is not only rockets powering the space race with jeff bezos planning to take off on blue origins first craft voyage carrying human passengers, amazon itself is also plotting its race to one that cloud. missions involve going all the way to mars. for now, the aws director of aerospace and satellite solutions and also retired major

general in the air force and spaceports. clint crosier, thank you for joining us. a lot of people don't realize aws's role in space and the space cloud. talk to us about the customers you are working with and the missions you are helping to carry out. clint: thanks very much for having us here on bloomberg technology tonight. we appreciate that. it is really interesting. space is at an inflection point. it is such an exciting time to be a part of the space industry. we are seeing epic and dynamic change and rapid growth including growth of all of the ways we are using space data around the world to support life on earth, from climate control to disaster response, humanitarian economics, , everything in between. what is really interesting is the future of space is data-driven. it is about collecting more data than we have ever had before from space, about processing, managing, distributing data.

those are the things that we are good at. doing all of that at scope and scale with speed and in a cost-effective manner. that resonates with our customers. it is about data management and data processing at its heart. emily: i talked to bill gates and he says it's great that jeff bezos and elon musk are exploring space, but i am focused on making life better here on earth. what will we get out of exploring the great beyond? emily: thank. that is interesting, because we, too are focused on ways we can make life better here on earth, making life better from space get we are working with a company, fireball international, using data and aws advanced cloud processing capabilities to identify wildfire breakout in remote areas within three minutes of ignition. before it gets out of control.

think about environmental management when you can tell within minutes when a fire breaks out, before it gets out of control. those are things we are seeing today. our space accelerator, what is interesting is we put out a call to space startups around the globe. we were looking for companies that had innovative ideas about how to solve big problems. that we face in the future. so what we were looking for is companies that had big problems in the space industry that they wanted to tackle and had an appreciation for the aws cloud -- appreciation of how the aws cloud can help do that. satellite view is a company out of the u.k. that is tackling climate change. they are using aws in the cloud and space to monitor earth to help manage climate change. emily: amazon's project has been competing with spacex star link for these low orbit satellites that are supposedly going to improve broadband and internet access here on earth. what is the vision for

the project, given that the satellites have yet to lunch? clint: the project is a slightly different part of the amazon family than aws, but the mission is to provide broadband capability to disadvantaged users. a really important mission set. the company is one of our customers and we are supporting them along with other customers to solve problems here on earth. emily: fascinating to hear what you guys are working on and how the space out is growing. thank you so much for joining us. all right, coming up, during the age of direct listings and specs, confluent hit the public market with a traditional ipo and a 25% or so pop. will talk to the ceo. this is bloomberg. ♪

♪ >> cell phone maker confluent is the latest tech company to hit the public market. shares rising 25%, valuing the company at double the valuation a year ago. joining me to discuss is the ceo, jay kreps. we have seen a lot of direct listings and spacs lately. why take the traditional apa route and why no? jay: it is pretty simple. if you're going after a $50 billion market and we wanted to raise capital, we wanted the opportunity to do that. it made a ton of sense for us and we are happy with the outcome. emily: confluent has developed streaming technology that helps process massive amounts of data online. this was critical during the

pandemic, but now that the world is coming out of lockdown and people going back to work, will we need that kind of technology as much? jay: absolutely. no company in the world is looking at the digital side of the business and thinking, hey, this isn't so important. even with people going into in-person experiences, if you look at retail and many other businesses, digital and in-person is really blinding. there's a whole software side of businesses that demand real-time access to data, real-time processing and that's what this . is all about. that is what we enable. emily: speaking of this whole era of data immersion, we have seen a rise in cyberattacks. increasing severity of the se cyberattacks. how big a threat is that, and what are you doing to secure your customers in this ever-evolving world? jay: it is a huge problem. one of the things that drives

customers to want to work with as is they are starting to think about how to use data in a structured way so it can be secured so they can analyze how it flows between different stubs. that is a big advantage of us is that it makes the flow of data within an organization more structured, more secure. emily: where do you see the most room for growth given that the threat landscape is constantly changing. needs are constantly changing , and this whole remote work situation is still a massive experiment? jay: look, this is a new category just emerging. we are just getting started. there is a $50 billion opportunity and we think this can grow into a massive data platform with companies. attaching all the different databases and applications. we are still in the very early days of confluent. we have of us to build a business we are very excited about so far, but there is still a lot to do.

emily: talk to us about what is next, the 10 year plan. jay: so, like i said the world of data has been all about storage. piles of data sitting in databases and cloud systems. now, data is really helping to run businesses, helping to deliver customer experiences, driving the operations at companies. that vision we have is that we think in each of these companies, there is going to be a central nervous system that ties it all together in real time and lets companies act on that and be smarter, more intelligent and how they build their businesses. we think it's a huge adjacent opportunity around it, and that is what we're are trying to pursue. emily: it's a really interesting time to become a public company. a lot of interesting market dynamics. how do you not get distracted by those dynamics given now that you are a public company, there are many more factors that you can't control? jay: one of the things i always

say to the team is, a company to be great over time, you have to execute in the short-term and over the long-term, and you have to keep your eye on both. obviously, as the stock price goes up and down every day. there's a ton of things we have to get done, but we also have to plot a longer path toward what we're trying to make true in the world. it is hard to do both of those things at the same time. but any company that does something great has to do that, and that is the challenge for us. emily: jay kreps, ceo of confluent, newly public company, thank you so much for taking the time. coming up, microsoft windows adding a big upgrade. all the new features and why gaming and cybersecurity are top of mind. that's next. this is bloomberg. ♪

emily: welcome back to "bloomberg technology." ." i am emily chang in san francisco. let's get back to the markets with ed ludlow, looking at self-driving cars. ed: this is a florida-based company that struck a deal with volvo to provide sensors for its next generation of e.v. suv's. the stock popping 6.8% on thursday, at one point up 12.8%, the most in three weeks. really fascinating, the details.

basically, this electric suv coming from volvo in 2022. at first, it will be just to boost additional safety features like breaking, but later, volvo plans a highway pilot. does that sound familiar? autopilot. basically as self-driving software that will combine the sensors with volvo's own software. we broke a story a few weeks ago about how tesla was testing this to benchmark it's on self-driving system which is very camera-centric. obviously, a lot of players in the space taking different approaches. clearly, investors paying attention to luminar. the amount of dealmaking going on in the autonomous space is massive. i am curious if this will also include companies working on components themselves, so definitely a space to watch

going forward. emily: thank you for breaking it down, ed ludlow. windows is getting a big upgrade. windows has announced windows 11 aimed at improving the remote work and gaming experience along with security features. >> today marks a major milestone in the history of windows. it's the beginning of a new generation. i am excited by what we have shown you today, and how we are reimagining everything from the operating system to the browser, to the store and the feed. emily: joining me now is a microsoft corporate vice president, who is behind this new generation of windows. great to have you back from the show. what is driving this? >> a big part of what we're trying to do is put people at the center of their computing experience. over the past year we learned that pc's were central in our

lives and the new windows 11 is designed to help you with a new, simplified experience, how to connect to the people you care about, and ultimately get more apps, more games and more entertainment to help you everything you want. emily: i note microsoft have been big proponents of remote work, hybrid work. how will this improve the remote work experience? >> one of the great things about windows 11 and why we believe it will be super for hybrid scenarios is a couple of things. one, we have done a bunch of work to create new capability so you can video call, chat, text message from the desktop. that lets you work remotely or in person in a more robust way. secondly, we have done work on how it works when you dock and undock between computers and big screens, it keeps all of your layouts together.

through cloud power and ai, we are able to keep your files wherever you go, so anytime you sit down and login, all of your data is right there. emily: what are the new security features? obviously, the cyber threats are rising in volume, and microsoft itself has been targeted. how does this make customers more secure? >> a big thing we did with windows 11 is pushed for a more secure system from the chip to the pc, all the way to the cloud. we have raised the baseline security mechanisms to protect your data, protect your privacy in ways that we hadn't been able to do before. this is the most secure windows we have ever released. emily: there is a lot of scrutiny on big-tech right now. i just interviewed senator klobuchar earlier in the show. you are doing things like bundling teams into windows, making changes to the app store. are you thinking about rising

scrutiny from washington as you make these changes to make sure that you don't draw the attention of regulators? >> yes. here at microsoft we are always thinking about what is the role of technology in the world and what role do we as a company play? there are a lot of important issues we need to be a leader on, whether that is responsible ai, or the role of innovation, are we creating platforms or opportunities for people to create? at windows, we try to do that. we believe we are putting forth one of the open platforms for development -- one of the most open platforms for development. we are making a big step forward with new improvements. with the store, anyone can come with their own commerce engine and sell within our store. you can bring creative cloud, fell subscriptions and keep all the living. that is unique and distinct from other platforms.

we did the same thing with how we are working with teams. the ability to text message not only an android phone or ios phone, but both. and we will allow any apps to run on the platform -- slack, resume, you name it. we want it to be on the platform and to run great. we want to make sure we have the most open platform for developers and creators. emily: if i am a gamer, why should i be excited? >> the pc has always been the home to gaming. windows 11, we are taking it another level forward. there is a bunch of performance improvements. games load faster. the worlds in the games will be much more immersive and rich. with the ex-boss game pass, people -- the xbox game pass, you will get over 100 games that you can play with one subscription. like a netflix for gaming. there has never been a better time to be a gamer on windows emily: we will be watching for 11. the big upgrade to windows. thank you.

me-time, google has pushed out its timeline to remove so-called cookies in his chrome browser. the company had pledged to get rid of cookies last year but in a blog post, they said cookies will be phased out in late 2023. these trackers helped create an enormous industry of web advertising, but it also created widespread privacy concerns. the news provided some short-term relief for tech companies that use the data to sell targeted ads online. coming up, what is figma? it is the fastest-growing software company shaking up the world of design, now valued at $10 billion. we will talk to the cofounder and ceo. this is bloomberg. ♪

>> i am mark gurman, era resident april device expert on bloomberg. we have launched an online and email newsletter filled with product reviews as well as insights and analysis about apple and the larger tech industry. check your inbox every sunday, giving you a great start to the week. everyone can sign up for power on, but bloomberg subscribers will get early access as well as

see my questions and answers featured illegally. i am looking forward to all of you signing up and me interacting with you online. emily: you know you don't want to miss those scoops from mark gurman. design has become an ever more important part of the user experience that products and services at all companies are delivering, putting figma in the sweet spot. it just raised new funding, putting its valuation at $10 billion, five times more than what it was worth last year. i want to bring in the founder and ceo. great to have you with us. thank you for stopping by. sigma has been disrupting the world of design. i am curious what makes it stand out from competitors like adobe, which, to be fair, does many things but also is trying to do what you do?

dylan: design has been an tear the last decade. we are just on the start of that. it's amazing to see the way that as we have cloud services, app stores, everyone is able to distribute software better now, and developer tools are getting better. the world cares about can you make something really well-designed? if you can, great. if not, you might losing business. as it happens, more people want to be involved in the design process. that is where figma comes in. we are a design platform that lets you collaborate with designers and also get more involved in design. our core product makes it so that you can create things like interfaces and we also just launched a digital whiteboard tool made for the era of hybrid remote work that we are in. emily: it is not just the user interface design happening on facebook, people use it to do interior design and plan weddings. talk to me about these other use. dylan:.

dylan:. dylan: cases. dylan: actually, me and my wife planned our wedding on figma. we are seeing everything from brainstorm and ideation to creating cities together all the way to people experimenting with , like when slack went down, people started chatting on figma. anything visual that you can imagine, whether it is slide decks, it can be done there. we'll do it which is great to see. emily: given the chatting that is happening, the collaborating that is happening, do you see yourself taking on a company like slack in other ways? dylan: not at all. we are really focused on creativity, visual communication. our vision is how to make design accessible to everyone. so everyone can be involved in the design process. if you think about it, especially over the last year with covid, we have gone from a physical economy to a digital economy. it is really important for everyone to have access to that digital economy. how do we make it so everyone

can join in? emily: five times as much as last year, why is it worth that? dylan: it has been a crazy year. we are very fortunate. the team has been working super hard. we have had a lot of lunches, traction. it has been a hard year for many and i am thankful for the progress in the past year. emily: the pandemic really accelerated the digital transformation and made so many people realize this need to have tools that enable remotely. us to collaborate remotely. are we going to need those tools as much, as the world goes back to work, as we all come out of lockdown and we are all doing a lot of different things, not just sitting at the computer. dylan we're going back into a : hybrid world. i don't think that people are going back into offices. the ones that do will often have employees at the office some days and some days will not have them there. so whether you are remote, hybrid, in person, we make tools that will work for you. we are trying to make it that we

are able to help more people be more effective. emily: you have an interesting story. you dropped out of school to found the company. what are the things you have learned along the way, what sort of advice do you have to impart to people thinking about doing the same thing, entrepreneurs? is it worth it? dylan: i am biased, but i had an amazing time. even when things were hard, it was worth it. the amount you get to grow and build is incredible. i think the advice going back to your question, if i was to give someone that is starting off today, i was fortunate to have the space to work and innovate. what the foundation fellowship taught me was to think big and swing for the fences rather than thinking small and local. it is really tempting, because you think that something small would be eased year than the big thing, but it turns out it can be just as hard.

emily: peter thiel is a controversial character. what did you learn from him? tell us about it. dylan: there are hundreds of fellows now. i don't know, super well, but i was thankful for the time i spent with him and thankful for the program. i don't have any lessons. [laughter] emily: talk to us about the big vision. the ambition is bigger. where do you see the biggest opportunities for growth? dylan: when we think about the vision, make is and accessible to all and we think about the design process. we are excited to take people from brainstorming, that first smart idea, all the way to designing, creating a design system, seeing if the ideas work, all the way to the code and production. we think if we can get that entire cycle, we will make it

that everybody is able to spin the design cycle inside of sigma. so that you are not inhibited throughout the creative process. emily: a lot of the collaboration is happening on desktops and laptops and people want more mobile features. how much is that part of the plan? dylan android and iphone. : we just launched on people are -- dylan: we just launched on android and iphone. we are hoping to do more mobile in the future. stay tuned. emily: what makes that difficult? it's a hard problem porting , a product that is so good on desktops, to your phone. dylan: it is interesting to think about how do you make it so that when you are going from one platform, make it native to that platform, not just taking the same metaphors and moving them over. that's why we don't rush these things. most designers are at their desks most of the time.

in another world, we would be at the beach designing. but we are not quite there yet. emily: there are so many companies trying to figure out the remote work plan. it is scary. some people want to be in the office. workers are rebelling. how are you balancing that and what is your plan for sigma getting back to work in the office? dylan: about a year ago, we had a blog post that outlined our strategy. and that is to be a hybrid model to make it so you are able to choose to be at a hub or remote. if you are at a hub, you are committed to going to the office two days per week. the same two days for everyone so you have more connections and you are able to just connect across teams more. if you are remote, then that's great. we can only do it in some areas, not the entire world, but we do it in the entire continental u.s. now. emily: if you're thinking about dropping out of college, should you do it?

dylan: it is dependent on everybody's situation. i think if you have an idea and you are excited to pursue it, it could be a great way to learn is to go pursue that, and college will probably be there later. emily: dylan failed, cofounder and ceo of figma. thank you so much. youtube trying to grab a larger slice of the e-commerce market. the world largest video platform has been hosting a livestream shopping event for business operators where viewers can buy products directly. google has also bolstered online retail ambitions by deepening its partnership with shop a ify. snap has struck a licensing deal with the world's top record label. the agreement with universal music will give users access to thousands of songs including tracks from drake and taylor swift. they can be used in messages and post. it can also share links from their streaming service of choice. speaking of peter thiel, the billionaire amassed $5 billion

in his roth ira account. we are going to talk about how the paypal cofounder legally skipped out on paying taxes on all of those gains. and shares of amd gaining, amd skipping a deadline to offer an concessions in the e.u.'s review of takeover of this company. the deal may be approved conditionally next week. this is bloomberg. ♪

emily: the cryptocurrency exchanged around by cameron and tyler winklevoss is trying to make the industry gemini trust more sustainable. gemini trust purchased $4 million and credit to offset the bitcoin it holds. the ceo says the company will continue to do this until only renewable energy is used in securing the bitcoin network. peter thiel, cofounder of paypal, accumulated nearly $5 billion in his roth ira according to a report by pro publica, raising concerns and questions about what kind of regulation should come from the irs. our personal-finance reporter has been following the story. how did peter thiel manage to do this and was it illegal? than really good question. pro publica has this trove of tax documents, and what they say happened here is that peter thiel took almost a million

shares of paypal in the late 90's and put it into this roth ira. background on roth, ira is different from traditional. you take pretax dollars and put them in and then any investment gains are tax-free for the rest of your life if you are able to get money in there. that there are some guidelines and barriers where, back in the 90's, you were only able to contribute $2000 a year into the ira, and there were income limits on it so only middle-class people could use the ira. peter thiel took shares, valued at 10% each, and within a year, they were worth millions. he was able to turn that paypal fortune into investments in facebook which he also made through this roth ira, and then

volunteer so he now has 5 billion -- and then palantir. so he now has $5 billion. emily: i asked senator klobuchar about this earlier. she called this and other ways the wealthy abuse the tax code to get wealthier outrageous. what can or will the irs do about this? ben: part of the issue here is, were these shares put in the ira in the 1990's, was he valuing them correctly or was paypal valuing them correctly at the time? that is open to question. the problem is the irs doesn't have the resources to go in and look at all of these transactions and fight with rich people who have very expensive lawyers over all of these valuations. remember, there were tons of people in the silicon valley who were starting text companies, probably putting those shares into roth iras at the time and a lot of those ended up being

worthless. one of the issues here is the funding of the irs, whether they have cops keeping an eye on these transactions. the other thing being discussed is maybe we need to have a size limit on these roth iras. they are supposed to be for middle-class people. the chair of the senate finance committee has proposed in the past capping the size of them at $5 million. he says he might, based on this story, he is planning to revisit that proposal. it possibly could be included in something that passes this year. emily: it makes you wonder how many other tech billionaires might have roth iras. billions stashed away in roth iras. i'm sure folks are were -- -- working on finding that out. thank you so much for bringing us that story. and that does it for this edition of "bloomberg technology." tune in tomorrow. we will be joined by michael saylor, the ceo of microstrategy.

one of the world's biggest bitcoin --. this is bloomberg. ♪ wanna help kids get their homework done?

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