fish from the heart of where innovation, money, and power collide, in silicon valley and beyond, this is "bloomberg technology" with emily chang. ♪ emily: i am emily chang, and this is "bloomberg technology." coming up in the next hour, more sanctions. the u.s. upping the pressure on putin and those closest to him. we will bring you the latest from the white house. plus, how the war in ukraine is affecting a world-renowned tech

sector. we will talk to two employees stationed across ukraine about how it is all going down. and more than $1 billion in losses for grab this quarter. i will talk to ceo ming maa about how he plans to turn it around. all of that in a moment but first a look at the markets, another day of stocks swinging between gains and losses to come as ukraine escalates. tech, actually the underperformer? ed: there is no clear driver other than financial energy sanctions. you can see the s&p 500, down 0.5%. and the nasdaq 100, very tech-heavy index, it tells the story, much more significant losses, 1.5%. west texas intermediate jumping to $116 a barrel, then pulling back to $107.67 a barrel.

at one point. that was the highest price since 2008. u.s. 10-year yields hovering at 1.85%. a lot to take on board i of a really important job print this friday where we focus on the outlook for rates. i want to look at the debt markets. this is important. the yandex, russian search engine, they paid a coupon payment on their dollar bonds thursday. this is the first example we have had of a foreign currency coupon payment by a company that is headquartered in russia. and of course, subject to financial sanctions. it has really set a precedent for what we could see from russian corporate that have issued dollar bonds. a really important moment for the market that you and i don't cover often, but really worth looking that. we talked about how tech was the underperformer in the markets on thursday. look at some of the names on the

board -- amazon is down, tesla. a big discussion is the sales exposure of these companies to russia. but a friend of the show came out thursday saying that even in worst-case scenarios, the sales exposures of these companies is 1% to 2%. in the worst-case scenarios. so interesting that tech is down so much, with a big jobs print on friday. we wonder if the market is looking beyond the situation in the ukraine, and has the economy and the outlook for rates in mind. emily: ed, thanks for that. the u.s. says they will be sanctioning vladimir putin's allies, limiting the trouble of 19 families and sanction eight more wealthy individual families. >> we are adding dozens of names to the list, including one of russia's wealthiest billionaires. and i banning travel to america am for more than 50 russian

oligarchs, their families, and their closest associates. emily: the west is working on raising pressure on putin and those closest to him. annmarie hordern entrances from the white house. anne-marie, how much more pressure will this put on vladimir putin? annmarie: we don't know yet but the strategy is to put pressure on the megarich of russia to try to see if they could potentially move the dial on putin's calculus and get him to withdraw his invasion of the ukraine. but given the fact he already spoke to emmanuel macron today and left that call thinking it will be possible. we did hear the president say that he is going after one of the richest persons. other individuals on that list, his longtime aide, for years he has worked with him, dmitry peskov,'s spokesperson.

then you have others. this was a big story when alexei navalny made this widely viewed youtube video about the quote unquote putin's palace near sochi that he spent billions on. the individual came out and said, i am actually the beneficiary of that. so these are people close to the president. and potentially the u.s. thinks they can change his calculus. emily: there is also a few or division that seems to be forming between the white house and congress about cutting off russian oil imports. what is the latest on that? annmarie: yes, nancy pelosi said ban it all. but the press secretary said today that it doesn't make sense. oil prices would go up. that gets to the heart of what this administration's challenge is at home. higher inflation and higher gasoline prices.

u.s. imports about 600,000 barrels of u.s. crude, 8% when you consider all the other products, not just hard-core barrels of crude. but the issue is that that is much less, because refiners are shutting it all on their own. they don't want to be seen buying these assets. emily: annmarie hordern for us at the white house, thank you for those updates. coming up is home to a lot of tech talent, developers at big-tech companies around the world. . we will talk of them next, and take you to western ukraine, where one engineer is helping to keep his team safe across the country. this is bloomberg. ♪

♪ emily: despite the relentless onslaught of russian forces, ukraine's vital tech sector is still operating for clients around the world. ukraine's tech leaders are helping to support the effort and working around-the-clock to keep their own employees safe. i want to bring in two of those tech leaders now. lasha antadze, cofounder of rarify, as well as pavel kravchenko, founder of the blockchain center distributive this to be ted lab, who just held his team kharkiv. members get out of the city of kharkiv. you're holding up your phone in front of your face, where you are hunkered down. i would love for you to talk to us about what you are experiencing there. i know you are in a city which has been quieter until now. how are you doing, and what is the situation there? >> the situation is ok.

seven days ago i woke from the rockets and explosions in kyiv. that was an experience. still, big parts of my team are experiencing this, kharkiv was all over the news because russians demolished the city. so, today, yesterday, tomorrow, we are advocating for the team and the people who need us. emily: thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us about what you are experiencing. my heart goes out to you and your team. sha, i know that you left ukraine for safety in georgia to weeks ago but you still have employees and developers in the ukraine. what are they telling you right now? >> as you can see, i am trying to manage communications from outside of the country, and it has been a challenge as well.

i want to thank the community, there has been a huge coordination among the developer community, and in terms of evacuating and coordinating this process. what we have seen is a huge help. there is a lot of coordination chats in terms of who manages what, and that is a huge help, especially for me who is outside and trying to manage all types and get help on hand. emily: pavel, i know you are working around-the-clock the clock to help your employees get to safer places. how hard is it to get out?

talk to us about the logistical challenges you are dealing with. i know that they are leaving everything they know, it is only because they will not have access necessarily to a consistent supply of food or medication. >> basically there are a few challenges. you have a shortage of taxi drivers, so anybody who can deliver anything. the price went up like 58 times. for normal people, it is just impossible to pay. for i.t. people, it is still possible, but still an expensive operation. plus the martial law, you can't stay outside after 6:00, in some cities, up to 4:00 -- after 4:00. in some places, like one developer just called me and said i need a way out, because our home has no electricity, no heat, no gas because it was bombed. so he needs to escape tomorrow.

so this type of stuff we have right now in kharkiv, it is under heavy fire. there are some other cities that are even worse. like mariupol and kherson, but khaki is a very big city, like one million people, and approximately 50,000 developers are there. the business has been disrupted, but our clients are supporting us, sending us money to donate, we are donating to people who are in need. it is a fortune currently to buy bread. that not everything you can buy with money. that is the truth that comes when you are in a war, the money doesn't save you. emily: lasha, i know that you are working to support your developers on the ground, and that has been an incredible means of internal communication in the way that you have all come together.

how are you organizing? is this a minute by minute, second by second thing? >> the first thing that comes to mind is that every morning you wake up and try to figure out what happened. this is the most kind of strange moment, when you wake up and you don't know what happened over the hours that you were asleep, trying to individually in the group chats, find out the bombs that were seen, how close they were to where you spent the night. this coordination happens a couple of times over the day. and especially when somebody leaves, like tomorrow some of the developers will leave, it is a challenge. what will it happen, what time will they get to the other cities? i am trying to keep the momentum around controlling and understanding who is at what stage.

emily: pavel, i understand some of your employees have expressed wanting to fight for your country. are you being asked to fight? are they taking up arms? >> actually, there are lots of people who want to fight. if you don't have experience, they won't let you. so, like yeah, many companies kind of afraid that their people will enter into the army. but actually, it is a very little amount of unexperienced people. but yes, it is a very patriotic feeling. because it is our land and they just bombed that. and surprisingly like kharkiv, , it was always considered like, they speak russian and it was a kind of friendly city. now, the russians demolished it more than other cities. and that's kind of made people wonder, like, if what they

supported in the past was really not good. so yeah. more and more people are willing to go to the army. and i know many people who come from abroad to fight, ukrainians that came from abroad. so that's the situation. everybody is helping. emily: your wife i understand is there with you and isn't leaving the country, but she is making supplies for the army. can you tell us about that decision, deciding to stay rather than leave, when leaving could be safer. >> we are all in the same boat. if you leave your home once, you leave your home twice. then the third time, it will never end, you know? like the apartment that was

bombed the day before yesterday, i was living in the same area, in two apartments. one of them i sold to a guy who moved from donetsk. dennis was already heavily destroyed when the separatists came there. and now kharkiv, it's the same. if you move another time, they will take something from there. we have run shop. georgia experienced this twice in their cities. so, it will never stop if you don't fight. emily: the ukrainian government has been so crypto-forward, accepting crypto donations. i know that you have experience in blockchain and nft technology, lasha. some of the way that the ukrainian government has been able to accept these donations, to come up with this idea to

auction off digital assets has been pretty incredible. what is it about ukraine and the deep bench of tech talent there like yourself that has enabled the country to do this? >> definitely, ukraine is one of the best countries, especially people in the blockchain space. especially pavel, that has been superstrong. from building products, global level, and outsourcing. we have been the market for outsourcing for western companies to build out. i can probably say that the same communities building and fighting at the same time and will continue until

we went. crypto has become widely used thing even before the war, and now it is being used to fund campaigns and the people who are in need for that. and governments is really enabling crypto donations and the community assisting that, more than 30 million as i know, from the last statistics, have been mobilized over that. that shows how the crypto community and support from the outside, that particular space and industry. emily: it has been incredibly powerful to hear your story and to hear how you are fighting to keep your employees safe and continuing to work and run your companies. thank you for taking the time to share your story with us, lasha antadze and pavel kravchenko. we hope you stay safe. coming up, we go to singapore to

speak with the president of grab, ming maa. the company continues to push towards profitability as the pandemic drags on. that is next. this is bloomberg. ♪ is next. this is bloomberg. ♪

emily: the effects of the pandemic, still being felt. grab, southeast asia's largest food-delivery company reported mounting losses in the latest earnings results with $1 billion lost for the quarter. joining me now, ming maa, the president of grab. you are based in singapore that announced rare unilateral sanctions on russia. what do you think of singapore's response so far, and how the world community is really rallying against russia? ming: emily, first of all, thank you so much for having me on here. it goes without saying that our hearts absolutely go out to everyone who has been affected. we do have a few grabbers who have been affected in the region, and we are doing everything we can. you're are absolutely right, the

covid impact has been severe. we are seeing tangential impacts on a global basis, and despite that i think we feel very happy with a lot of the performance that we have achieved in spite of all the city lockdowns and ins right of all the micro turmoil. 2021 was our best year ever. we exceeded guidance on gmb, revenues grew by 44%, and we delivered against our ibitda guidance. in terms of southeast asia, it is clear that our strategy is working. users are spending more. customers from our 2016 cohort are now spending close to 5x what they spent when they first joined grab, and customer retainment is higher for customers that use three or more services. we are focused on building value over the long-term, and just really unlocking the tremendous market opportunity that we see

here. then we are convinced that the position we have taken in our strategy, is the only one that is right for us. emily: many of your workers are part-time workers with little rights. how are you factoring that into the future of the company? ming: the key for us has always been around how do we create true economic empowerment for micro-entrepreneurs across southeast asia? these are the driver partners and restaurant partners that we work with in food-delivery. the key for us is how do we provide the largest income opportunities for drivers or merchants over time? a key aspect for that is executing on our strategy, it is about cross-cell, selling multiple services to consumers, over time generating increase in wallet share.

think that is the best way to continue for us empowering economic stability for the region. emily: the war in ukraine is only escalating. there is concern that it could lead to rising food prices with and it would certainly make supply chain issues potentially worse. how is grab potentially impacted by that and preparing for that? ming: we are monitoring the situation closely. it is a bit too early to tell how the effects will ripple through southeast asia. we are monitoring gas prices and oil prices as it relates to drivers, it affects them in a very direct way. also monitoring food costs, and the effects of inflation across southeast asia. if i step back for a second, the real key for us in the platform is how do we provide the lowest-cost services to our merchants, drivers, and to our consumers? ultimately if we are able to do that, than i think that sustainability will be on the platform.

a quick example -- when you look at our total segment-adjusted ibitda on margins, we have improved those by 50% from 2020 to 2021. -2% loss in 2020 to -1% loss in 2021. emily: ming maa, president of grab, thank you for joining us. we will see how grab continues to whether the covid storm. coming up, we will look at what it is like fleeing ukraine from the eyes of those living through it, plus what it is like being a child of war. and later, crypto and the war. more on the role of crypto in the russian invasion, and how crypto exchanges cannot navigate the crisis. this is bloomberg. ♪ is bloomberg. ♪

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emily: welcome back to "bloomberg technology." i am emily chang in san francisco. it's estimated more than one million refugees have left ukraine, many fleeing to poland, leaving behind uncertainty on whether they can return and what they will be returning to. bloomberg's aggie cantrell is in poland, and she spoke to those leaving it all behind. >> i saw a lot of damage, and i don't see my kyiv as it was

before. aggie:: at the main trend station at the border with ukraine, we are seeing people who have come from kyiv and lviv and other parts of the country arrive in poland and in the e.u.. something that is happening in a lot of places around the european union's borders with the ukraine. >> it was very frightening. i just came with my son. my husband stayed in ukraine. i hope that he will alive. and i hope that he will come here. >> i believe in ukraine my husband, and i come to poland with my daughter and with my friend. we are going to germany today.

and i don't know how many times we stay there. aggie: we have also heard about people who are not ukrainian citizens that were living in the country at the time the war began, discussing the fact that they found it harder to leave the country because they were not ukrainian. >> it was very challenging because i was not ukrainian. even the guys, they were pushing us and trying to stop us from entering the train and allowing the ukrainians to go first. although i am from africa, but i have a wife who is from ukraine. first when we arrived at the border of ukraine, they took my wife and my child away and they told me to wait. so i stood there for about three or four hours, before they called us to come. it was really, really stressful. it took me two days to get to poland. leaving ukraine was very, very stressful and i didn't want to

leave ukraine because all my life is there, my child, everything. we left everything in ukraine. i don't know from now. because, if the war still continues in ukraine, i don't know what will happen. and now they are telling us you can only stay 14 days here. and i don't know what to do. aggie: the unhcr has said that any sort of discrimination against people from third countries would not be acceptable under the geneva convention. but that they haven't had confirmation of such things from the authorities. here we are seeing people who get hartford and sim cards -- who get hot food and sim cards, in order to stay in contact with t there families, whether they will stay in poland or try to find a new life in other parts of the european union whether that be just for now, or potentially permanently. >> i hope we will return soon,

because i didn't want to leave. i want to be home. but unfortunately, such is the situation. we are hoping that it will end soon. >> at this moment, i don't see the opportunity to return. emily: bloomberg's aggie cantrell in poland. i want to bring in early part ovi, ceo of ne-yo, which just launched a new accelerator -- ali partovi. i want to start by asking a bit about your family history, because you grew up during a war in iran. i am so curious, what is it like watching these images and seeing the ukraine under attack? ali: thank you for having me here. it is really tough. war is terrible. for me, it is personal, because i was seven years old and living in iran when iraq invaded us,

and for the next five years, there was just this ever present sense of fear. as a child, it is really difficult not just the fear, but seeing the grown-ups be afraid, seeing your parents stressed out or anxious and not knowing what is going to happen next is particularly difficult for children. i will say on the bright side, my twin brother and i, we are very lucky because we had a special form of escape. as you know, i have 20 in the past, we were a monster the only kids in the country to have a computer and we learned how to program, and that, for us, was a way for us to create our own world in software that we could control and that followed the rules and was predictable. that was an enormous comfort for us to have that, and i would say it helped us get through. emily: and you both founded a

company called quote/unquote.org, which, i believe, you can access anywhere -- called code.org. which i believe you can access anywhere. do you have any tips on how to survive? ali: not my place to give advice, but a second brag, my brother has led that organization to have so much impact, tens of millions of kids worldwide are now able to program. it is not just a skill that helps them think, it also helps them to cope. ukraine alone, 6.5 million kids use code.org. out of a country of 44 million, that is a large number. having that escape is, i am sure, comforting to them. i think we need to mention that this is not the only unjust war going on right now. war is terrible and it really needs to stop it that are also kids coding in iraq, which is

occupied by the u.s. for 20 years now. there are kids coding in yemen which is being bombed as we speak. those are words that i don't think americans support either, but they are words that our government has been supporting -- wars that our government has been supporting. kids are innocent regardless of skin color or where they are born. it is not fair for them to have to pay the price because of these wars. emily: i know that one of the most important things to you has been to find tech talent, no matter who they are or where they are, and give them the tools to succeed, which is what you are doing at neo. and you have launched this new accelerator. what is the goal here, and how will that work in the context of new opportunities in the tech industry. ali: my own path was very much the american dream. i came to america with not much

other than the ability to program and that enabled me to have this power to create, and being able to program means i can create absent even build a company. i started the company when i was 23 and became successful. today, kids who are graduating from college with that ability have the potential to create the epochal companies of the future. we just announced this neo accelerator, which is aiming specifically for relatively young engineering leaders, 1-4 years out of college, who want to start companies, and give them both financial support, and mentorship to help them build right startups. and it is a program that is a three-month program that includes a four-weeklong retreat in oregon to kick it off, where founders of companies will live under the same roof alongside

each other and mentors, and it will culminate at the end of the program with a pitch date not to raise more money, but to pitch other engineers, two-page software engineers to join your team, because that is one of the toughest problems facing all companies today. emily: it has been described as the anti-yc, a reference to y combinaor that has been operating in silicon valley for years. how will neo do things differently? ali: it is an incredible organization. incredibly inspiring. it is not an exaggeration to say it is one of the most impactful organizations of the 21st century if you look at the amazing companies that it spawned. i don't think you're doing

something wrong. as the startup world has expanded and become more vibrant, there is room for different investors to support different types of companies. and y combinator's primary focus, or the culmination of their program is to help with fundraising, and it appeals to companies who are struggling with fundraising. as access to capital -- capital has become more abundant in the last couple of years, it hasn't been equally distributed. there are some companies where it is really easy to raise funds. and then there are others for whom it is really difficult. so, y combinator today has really shifted to focus on emerging markets. very large and lucrative opportunities helping companies from america and latin america get capital and it is doing really great work. it is less relevant than it used to be for top engineers who are

perhaps graduating from american universities, or graduating from american tech companies like google or stripe or microsoft, because for them, they don't need help with raising money, it is so easy for them to raise money these days, they need help with other things. so we are tailoring a program to help them with things that are there challenges. emily: we are excited to watch you start a new chapter in silicon valley history. ali partovi, ceo of neo, thank you for sharing a personal story as well. i appreciate it. coming up, how crypto exchanges can navigate the war. we will be joined by coin share to talk about crypto exchanges responsibilities as sanctions keep piling on russia. candies crypto-currencies truly be regarded as a safe haven?

that's next.

emily: after plunging at the start of the russian attack on ukraine, crypto-currencies have reasserted themselves as a refuge in the last few days. bitcoin rallied 16% over the last two days, but it is starting to lose steam as the possibility of expanding sanctions to prevent russians from using crypto-currencies is growing. i want to talk to meltem demirors, chief strategy officer at coinshares. what do you make of the back and forth and up and down, is bitcoin a safe haven or not?

meltem: it is great to be here. i wish it were under better circumstances. this has been a really interesting few weeks. not only do we have this conflict happening in western europe and eastern europe, but we also recently had the canadian truckers and their access to the banking system getting cut off, which was an instance where there was a lot of conversation around bitcoin and cryptocurrency. i think what we're seeing is a growing awareness that for the first time, people, citizens who really are the victims of wars that are fought by superpowers, they have a choice. bitcoin and crypto-currencies are nonpolitical, global money. again, we are seeing not only an increase in trading activity in ukraine and russia, but also a lot of activity coming from the u.s. as people are looking at what is unfolding around the world and may this is the start of bitcoin no longer being a risk-on asset, but potentially over time coming a risk-off

asset. a couple of weeks is not enough time for that thesis to play out, but i think in the coming months and years we will be able to have more data that will allow us to more definitively prove that relationship over time. emily: crypto exchanges have said they will comply with sanctions, but not do a blanket ban on all russian users. what do you make of how they are navigating this? can they differentiate between russian tycoons and everyday russians? meltem: that is a great question. in 2018 is one we saw the treasury issued the first sanction against a bitcoin will let address. one of the end -- bitcoin wallet address. a bitcoin wallet address is a string of characters. you can attach it to a person. obviously anytime you want to interact with a legacy financial

system, meaning fiat currencies, the money that we spend and use, the many oligarchs and tycoons have to use to fuel for their jets and yachts, you are interacting with financial institutions who will do background checks and gather data on who you are. the steps exchanges have taken is that they will comply with the rules as they are written, and at the end of the day private citizens in any part of the world that are not subject to black of sanctions should be allowed to use platforms as they have in the past. and anyone who is the subject of an official sanction will be blocked. what happens is much more challenging to control. but at the end of the day, it is very difficult to move hundreds of millions of dollars in and out of crypto without touching the legacy financial institutions. it is those endpoints where the control will be happening. emily: after raising almost $47

million in donations via cryptocurrency, ukraine has been so crypto forward, and accessing all of these new technologies, some of these things would be unheard-of here in the united states. they said they would airdrop rewards to those who contributed. and then they said they were canceling that they are now talking about auctioning off nfts. what do you make of their use and exploration of these technologies? meltem: it is absolutely incredible. over 35,000 different wallet addresses have given close to $50 million in direct aid to the government of ukraine, and in real-time, with settlements to this wallet address owned by the yucatán government. in contrast, the country has screened -- has raised $270 million in war bonds and received more in aid from the u.s.

$50 million is a sizable number that can make a difference. what's really cool about this is that anyone in the world can give money. this is nonpolitical, global money transferred on the internet, so anyone with an internet connection with or they live in africa or southeast asia or in the u.s., they can send money either buyer an intermediary or via a wallet. i think that is really exciting. it brings a lot of transparency. we are not shipping pallets of cash to these countries, which has been done in the past. we confirm with certainty that these funds are going to the government. and what is exciting is that in a matter of hours, the centralized exchange protocol called uny swap was able to send out a product that allows people to convert any token into a donation to the yucatán government. the fact that we can do this within hours is incredible. the fact that the crypto community has mobilized around this is exciting.

and i think ukraine's embrace of this is acknowledgment that the world is supporting the people of ukraine, the world wants to help, and whether they get a token or nft indicating support -- we buy things all the time. people buy puppies on remembrance day, bumper stickers to show their support for specific causes. in the digital world, on the internet, we might buy nfts, or donate, and that indicates our support for a cause. emily: i appreciate your enthusiasm in helping us put this into context, it has been amazing to watch the way that ukraine has taken advantage of this new technology and how the world has responded. meltem demirors, from coinshares. thank you for joining us. coming up, an about-face for rivian after being hit by a number of cancellations this week. that's next. this is bloomberg. ♪ mberg. ♪

emily: c-shares of electric pickup truck maker rivian dropping even lower thursday. the backtrack just 48 hours after the company announced it would boost the price of its cup by 17% and its suv by 20%. joining us is ed ludlow who covers rivian. . where do we stand now. are prices standing or not -- prices rising or not? ed: the prices are rising if you make an order today. a preorder customer or who put the order in before march 1 will pay the original prices. there were a number of cancellations. rivian wouldn't tell me how many, but you can find a number of upset customers on twitter. when they first launched the product, the price of the pickup truck was $67,500. if you ordered before march 1 or

anytime in the last couple of years you will pay that, but going forward, you are paying 17% more, almost $80,000, a big jump. emily: i still don't understand why they thought they could raise prices on people who had ordered something, potentially as many as two years ago, but ok. there is broader significance here beyond customers being upset, which i understand. talk to us about why this really matters. ed: you saw that quote from the ceo, he wrote a letter to customers saying basically that this is supply problems. semiconductor shortages. rising input costs. look what is happening in the global commodities markets. they had to do something. they just got it wrong, making it relevant to preorder customers. remember, this company had the sixth-biggest ipo in history, it has $3 billion on its balance sheet, but it is years away from profitability, from being cash flow-positive. so this really matters.

rbc calculated that by backtracking, they are leaving about 850 million dollars of potential revenue on the table when you take into account the worst-case scenario of cancellations. . so this is meaningful. but it is a classic pickup for a company that has grown really big, really fast, but isn't really building that many trucks yet. emily: how do you think higher oil prices will impact demand? ed: we don't know who they are competing with. . are they going after tesla? tesla has a lower price point. are they going after the premium segment, or going after traditional pickup buyers? rivian billed itself as the patagonia of the ev world, for adventurers and explorers. so this is the question going forward, however relevant to their products will be with customers. emily: ed ludlow, thanks for bringing us that story. that does it for this edition of "bloomberg technology." we will be joined tomorrow by the ceo of kraken, jesse powell,

to talk about the rise of crypto during the war, the impact of sanctions, and their approach. he has been pretty active on twitter about this. we will be back with that tomorrow. i am emily chang. this is bloomberg. ♪

>> the following is a paid program. the opinions and views do not express those of bloomberg lp, its affiliates, or its employees. this is a paid advertisement for csn. >> many times i have been out here with the new coin release and in the past, it has been nothing but hyperbole, but this time i really would like a drum roll. this is the singular most