emma: hello, and welcome. very good to be with you and have your company. how dangerous can fiction really be? my guest today, a turkish writer and political scientist, has been investigated by the authorities of her home country for simply writing novels. accused of being anti-turkish and inciting crimes through her writing, she has fought back and continued to defy her critics. elif shafak, through her fiction, including her latest novel, "the island of missing trees," covers politics, identity, and the expectations of women. she has also won acclaim for defining the "forty rules of love." now a british citizen, she continues to campaign for women's rights, both in what she calls her motherland, turkey, and around the world. elif shafak, welcome. elif: thank you so much. emma: it is lovely to be with you. and i thought we could start with what you call your motherland, turkey. and do you think that people

outside of turkey realize how challenging the circumstances are inside it? elif: i don't think many people realize that. turkey, as you know, has become a difficult place for anyone who deals with words. so poets, writers, journalists, of course. but also cartoonists, for instance. humor itself can also be regarded as dangerous, when democracy is lost. so that makes it very difficult, when you don't have freedom of speech. it makes the life of a writer difficult. many people, of course, understand that it might be not that easy to question political issues, but sometimes people don't realize that it is equally challenging to write about sexuality, gender discrimination, child abuse. so all those issues can also be very difficult subjects to tackle. emma: i want to come to the investigation of you in short order, but on that point of our view of turkey outside turkey, do you think it is outdated, what we think of as turkey? because what has happened has been quite gradual.

elif: there is no doubt in my mind. this is such a beautiful country. it is a very complex country. and i would never associate the government and the people. you know, the civil society in turkey is far more multilayered, nuanced. but we do have a very conservative government that has become more and more authoritarian over the years. emma: under erdogan. elif: under erdogan. so what we have seen in turkey is the country under erdogan has been going backwards and declining into ultra nationalism, islamism, populist authoritarianism. when and where that happens, we will also see an increase in sexism, misogyny, homophobia. in my opinion, these things always go hand in hand. emma: there must be many, though, who are in support. or do you see it as a mask? elif: there are some in support, of course, but for all kinds of reasons. and as you pointed out, this government has been in power for a very long time. they came to power with liberal promises of reform. at the time, they were pro

turkey's eu membership. emma: do you consider turkey -- i say you call it your motherland, but do you consider it your home? what is your identity, as far as you are concerned? because you are someone who has paid a lot of attention to that. elif: i care about this question so much, identity. for me, it is not a static, solid, single thread. it is not a monolithic block. i want to think of identity as more fluid, more multiple. and i think, as human beings, we all contain multitudes, like walt whitman used to say. the problem is, we are living in a world that does not allow us to be multiple, let alone celebrate our own multiplicity. so, for me, rather than identity, singular, what i care about more is multiple belongings. if i have a singular identity, if you have a singular identity, it is much harder for us to understand what we have in common. but the moment we understand and embrace these concentric circles of belongings, then we realize actually so much of it overlaps.

emma: you said of your own country, your motherland, in 2014, "i get a lot of criticism from the cultural elite and a lot of love from readers." the more you are read in the western world, the more you are hated in your motherland. do you think that is still the case? has it got worse or got better in the intervening years? elif: i wish i could say that we , you know, we made a lot of progress in turkey in terms of freedom of speech, but i am afraid it is quite the opposite. in 2006, i was put on trial for writing a novel called "the bastard of istanbul," which tells the story of a turkish family and an armenian-american family. and it is with memory and amnesia. as you know, in turkey, we have a very long history, rich history, but that does not translate into strong memory. in fact, i think it is quite the opposite, where society would call it amnesia, and our entire relationship with the past is full of ruptures, and that void is filled in by ultranationalist and islamist interpretations of the past. so, when this book came out, the novel came out, i was put on trial for insulting turkishness under article 301.

this is an article in the turkish constitution which has been used against journalists, against scholars, but it was the first time it was used against a work of fiction. and it was quite surreal, as well, because the words of fictional characters were plucked -- they were taken out of the text and used as evidence in the courtroom, as the result of which my turkish lawyer had to defend my armenian fictional characters in the courtroom. emma: so your characters were on trial. elif: my characters were on trial, alongside myself. emma: because you fought this. and what happened? elif: yeah. emma: and what happened? elif: so that madness went on for about a year, and there were groups on the streets, ultranationalists spitting at my pictures, burning eu flags, because for them, anyone who questions official history is a pawn of western powers. and then i was acquitted at the end of that. emma: what toll did that have on you? because that sounds like it was something to really live through. elif: it was quite unsettling. i mean, i have to be honest with myself, it did shake me quite a bit. also because i was pregnant at the time.

so the day i was acquitted, the next day, i gave birth. emma: wow! elif: so just one day apart, the birth and the acquittal. emma: really? elif: so, you know, that whole year was quite unsettling for me, and it was not easy. but of course, many people go through so much worse, so i don't want to put too much emphasis on that. and at the same time, i did receive amazingly heartwarming letters at the time from readers. and the reason why i mention where we are right now is, a couple of years ago, in 2019, again, this time i was investigated for the crime of obscenity, for writing about sexual harassment, for gender violence. i write about these issues , because this is the reality of the land where i come from. emma: and what happened with those investigations? elif: it did not turn into a trial, but the very fact that police officers come to a publishing house, the very fact that they confiscate novels, works of fiction, and they take it to a prosecutor is quite unsettling for authors. emma: i mean, your works are hugely successful and widely read around the world.

when you started writing in english, i know that was a big deal for you. but again, you have been labeled a traitor for doing so, making your name easier for westerners to pronounce and all of that. but how much do you think you have been targeted because you are also a woman? elif: it is difficult to be a novelist in turkey, because novelists deal with issues about identity, belonging, memory, amnesia. you know, the canvas of a novel is so nuanced. it is not easy to be a novelist, but honestly, i think it is much harder, or it's, you know, perhaps more dif

emma: what is going on in turkey, with regards to women, is extraordinarily bad on many, many levels. you know, nearly every day, a woman is killed. the levels of domestic violence and how actually it is not investigated is something that

it almost cannot be stressed enough. the country leaving the istanbul convention earlier this year. no reason was given. that was all about a document signed in istanbul all about the prevention of gender-based violence. what is your understanding, just first of all, of why erdogan walked away from that, or his government did? elif: we have seen an escalation in cases of femicides in turkey, and there are so many other stories that go uninvestigated. for instance, there are very suspicious suicides. are they really suicides? this is an urgent issue for women and children and minorities in turkey. but instead of doing something about it, instead of changing the laws, and instead of implementing the istanbul convention -- because signing it is not enough. you need to ratify, you need to implement it, put it into practice. so instead of doing all that, what the government did was the exact opposite. they also launched this very horrible smear campaign, misinformation, saying that the

istanbul convention is actually against our traditional values. and then one night, at nighttime, the government decided to withdraw, you know, from the istanbul convention without really consulting women, without really consulting the civil society. and ever since, women have been bravely on the streets protesting. there are many women in turkey who are incredibly strong and vocal, and i have so much respect for them. and when you look at academia, media, medicine, you will find them everywhere, except in one field, where there are very few women, especially as you go up the echelons of decision-making, and that is politics, and that makes a huge difference. so the ones who are making the decisions are usually very patriarchal, conservative men. emma: you use the word "femicide." and actually, not everybody uses it. but nearly every day of the year, a woman is killed, and that is only the women who are recorded in turkey. do you think it is important, as someone who thinks all the time

about what words to use, that that word is used and that it passes into common parlance? elif: yes, i think it is so important. we need to use the word "femicide." we need to use the word "misogyny." but we also need to understand that hate speech directed against women is a crime, and it leads to other crimes. so every case shows this. and i don't think i have to mention social media, alongside the role of media, in which, unfortunately, it is always women who are put under the magnifying glass. "what was she wearing? what was she doing at that hour of the night? why was she out?" immediately -- or, "why didn't she defend herself?" immediately, we start questioning women. this narrative has to change. we also need to understand that unfortunately, with the pandemic, we have seen an increase in domestic violence all across the world. there was a recent report that showed, in over 40 countries, the amount of abuse that women journalists, women politicians,

any women in the public space have been receiving has escalated. so tech companies also need to wake up to the fact that this is hate speech we are talking about, and they need to take it seriously. emma: with regards of course -- i mean, men receive an awful amount of abuse, as well, but it is augmented differently towards women, and for what reason it is given. and i suppose how you can tackle that -- i mean, some would say technology is just reflecting the ills that's already there in society, and it's actually for society to change as opposed to the platforms. but there has been a move away from that position. elif: i think we need to talk about tech companies in a different way, in the sense that , for me, particularly the digital platforms, social media is a bit like the moon. it definitely has a bright side, of course. it does connect us, it does give people more voice, especially in countries where there are no media freedoms, or in countries where there is no equal space in the urban public space, for

instance, for women. many young women can carve out a space for themselves on digital platforms. i do not belittle any of that. however, because we have over-romanticized the bright side of technology, and because we have this tech optimism of the early 2000's, which was so arrogant as well, because the expectation was, you know, if you bring facebook and social media, every country is going to become a democracy. that's not true. because of all of that, we urgently need to focus on the darker side of social media platforms, and we need to understand how this spreads disinformation, misinformation, and hate speech. emma: the technology companies would say they are working on that. that is something they are now looking at or have been looking at. i was reading about your early life. you said that books saved you. why was that? elif: my parents were in france. i was born in france. but afterwards, they got separated, and my father stayed in france.

and in the meantime, my mother brought me to ankara, to turkey, to a very conservative neighborhood, very patriarchal neighborhood. this was my grandmother's house. but grandma herself was interesting. she was a bit like a matriarch, and people would come to her, and her house was full of superstitions, you know, lots of stories of the middle east and old culture. although most of my upbringing and my education was in turkey, i think i also felt the need to start writing in english, even though, as you can hear in my accent, in my broken accent as well, i am an immigrant in this language. english for me is an acquired language. it is a much more cerebral connection. my connection with the turkish language is much more emotional. but writing in english gave me an additional sense of freedom, and i needed that. to this day, i realize if my writing has more sorrow in it, if it has more longing or melancholy, i find these things much easier to express in turkish. emma: really? elif: but when it comes to

humor, which i love, and irony and satire, i find that much easier in english. emma: what language do you dream in? that is always the test. do you dream in both? elif: i dream in both. emma: [laughs] elif: i dream a lot in english. when i am writing in english, i dream mostly in english. but it can change. emma: i love asking people who can speak a few languages where they are with that, because it is a bit of a moment, when you switch over. elif: that is so true. and the mind is fascinating, isn't it, because it doesn't recognize these national borders that we all take for granted. emma: you are not asked for your passport in your sleep. elif: not at all. so we can start the same dream in turkish and end it in english. it also fascinates me when i observe many immigrants or many families from complex backgrounds, sometimes they like to express their anger or frustration in one language or another, so that switch back and forth. emma: it is so clever.

emma: in the latest book, "the island of missing trees," why or what was the moment you thought, i would quite like to write from the perspective of a figtree? elif: that was such a risk, to be honest. i was aware that was a risk for an author, because if it doesn't work, the whole thing collapses, the whole edifice collapses. but it felt like the right thing to do. and if i may take a step back, i have been wanting to write about cyprus for a very long time. emma: which is where the book -- elif: which is where the book partly takes place. it is a beautiful island with beautiful people north and south, but at the same time, it is a very difficult story to

tell. and as you know, as we are speaking, there is a border, a frontier partition line that literally separates christians from muslims, greek cypriots from turkish cypriots. depending on who you talk to, north or south, there are clashing memories, and there are wounds, and the wounds are unhealed. i couldn't find the gate into the story. i had been thinking, reading, researching. only when i found the voice of the figtree, it allows me to separate myself from these nationalistic boxes, and take another look, and then i felt more free to tell the story. emma: but about what people don't say, that is also a theme in the book, and it is about what you don't say to your children, how you protect them potentially from painful pasts, what you as a family have perhaps fled from or escaped from. you have two children, and i wonder how much you have navigated that with your own children, what you say about why you really left when you left turkey. you know, having your mother being heavily pregnant with you while being investigated in the way that you have described to me today is extraordinary.

elif: yes, these are conversations to have. i am aware of that. at the same time, as a novelist, i also love to be an intellectual nomad, to the best of my ability. so i need to look at the story from the perspective of multiple generations. and the reason why i say this is because i think in many migrant families, or any family that comes from a complex background, there are these striking differences as we move from one generation to the next. the first generation are usually the ones who have experienced the biggest hardships, traumas, obstacles, and they carry those memories within, but they don't know how to talk about them, so they don't. the second generation, especially after displacement, they are not interested in the past. and, understandably, they have to be forward-looking, they need to find their feet. build a new life. emma: assimilate.

yeah. elif: assimilate, let's move forward. it is the third or the fourth-generation in these families, the youngest in these families, who are asking the strongest questions about identity, memory, their ancestors' journeys, and i find that very striking that sometimes you can meet young people carrying old memories. emma: it is so true. are you -- have you made a decision, then, based on that, to try and skip being the generation -- because you have moved and changed -- that doesn't answer the questions? are you trying to disrupt that? elif: i want to disrupt that. i want to understand those silences, because i think silences keep us apart, and they also deepen and widen the existing hurts and inequalities. but stories bring us together. if we understand each other's stories, then we can feel someone else's psychology. i am someone who thinks about emotions, and i think we are living in an age of angst. and it is not easy to be young in this age. it feels to me like many young

people, they have almost a scream building up inside, and they want to unleash it at us , because they think we are destroying, right? destroying this world for them. it is going to impact their future. so it is a moment of anxiety, fear, disappointment, bewilderment, anger, as well. but i think, rather than questioning these emotions, the real question is, what do we do with these emotions? you know, what do we do with our anger? what do we do with our anxiety? can we turn it into something more positive? there is only one emotion that really scares me, and that is the lack of all emotions. that is numbness. the moment we stop listening to each other, the moment we become indifferent. emma: the indifference. elif: indifferent, that is a much darker world. emma: that scream of anger has made me recall that i read you are a heavy metal fan. [laughs] is that how you release, elif? elif: i love heavy metal. emma: of course you do. that is exactly what i thought when you walked in today. [laughter] do you really? elif: i do. i do, very much so, since my early youth.

you know, people do not expect a middle-aged turkish woman to love heavy metal, but i do. emma: is that what you were listening to when you wrote as the figtree? elif: yes, i do listen to heavy metal, particularly the sub genres like industrial metal, gothic, more metal core, viking, scandinavian. emma: viking is my favorite. i've literally got no idea what you're talking about. [laughter] you also penned "the forty rules of love." what is the most important one? elif: i think they are all related. i think love is so powerful, and it transforms us, and we need to allow ourselves to be transformed. and i think one of the rules mentioned in the book is about freedom. where there is no freedom, there is no love. so love is not about possessiveness. you know, my fiancé, my partner, my girlfriend. the emphasis is always on "my." but it is not about ownership, love. emma: freedom and love makes me think of your ted talk back in 2017, where just toward the end

, you said you had never been brave enough to admit -- i think you said it in the past tense, that you were bisexual. elif: no, i said i am, but i never had the courage -- emma: never had the courage to say it before then. elif: -- never had the courage to say it publicly. emma: i watched that talk and it is right towards the end, and it is great to hear it in its full context, but of course what was taken from that is you came out. and you had been scared of the shame, the ridicule. how has it been since? elif: well, unfortunately, again , from my motherland, the level of shaming, ridicule, hate speech, verbal abuse has been awful. but i was ready to weather that storm. i wish i had the courage to come out earlier, even though it is very visible in my writing, even though i have always been very vocal about my support for lgbtq plus rights, i never had the courage to say also this is my story. but with regards to feedback or the comments coming from listeners or readers from other

parts of the world, it has been incredibly heartwarming. and also from my motherland, i need to add this, from families , particularly of children who are lgbtq themselves, both young and older generations, there have been very heartwarming and very moving letters, quietly, whispering words of support. but i have to go through a lot of abuse afterwards. emma: it is interesting, i was looking at some of the feedback that was certainly public. there is this type that you described in terms of the anti, but there was also a sense of you are married to a man, why did you need to say this? we are beyond being able to be in a position where you have to come out anymore. but, of course, different parts of the world and different parts of society are at such different stages of that, aren't they? i wonder, do you still think today it is important to be able to say those things, or do you think we are post that in some way? elif: i think it is always important to share our stories. one of the things that happens

to us is, you know, when you deal with authoritarianism, when you deal with any ideology or structure that divides human beings into boxes and denies their freedoms, what happens is people feel very lonely. people feel like, am i the only one who is feeling this way? but when you hear someone else's story, then you realize you are not alone, and that is very important. there are amazing authors from lgbtq plus communities, authors, poets, speakers who have given me amazing energy and motivation and inspiration. so i felt like i had a responsibility to share this, primarily to myself, but also to anyone who might be feeling alone. emma: elif shafak, thank you so much for talking to me. elif: thank you so much. emma: really appreciate it. elif: thank you. you, too. thank you. emma: thank you so much for being with us. until we meet again, mask up, stay safe, and goodbye. ♪

- the past few years have been a challenge for our physical and mental health. - join kate and me as we get personal about our own journeys and how the conversation around mental health has changed. - watch our conversation on peacock.

emily: thank you, andy, so much for coming down. it is really wonderful to have you here in person. andy: it is my pleasure to be here. thanks for having me. emily: and i actually found out we lived in the same dorm in college. just a few years apart. so, it has been almost a year since you took over, from jeff, as ceo of amazon.