francine: edward enninful, thank you so much for joining us. edward: thank you for having me. francine: what drives you?

edward: what drives me? oh my god, i love, you know, the idea of just -- as simple as this. an inclusive world. a world where people see themselves reflected. because i was supposed to be invisible, by all accounts. i was supposed to not be where i am. i was supposed to have disappeared a long time ago, and every turn in my life was about visibility. yes, i will be this person who's not supposed to be here. yes, i will fight through the hard times. yes, i won't give up. and even though i was sort of the token black editor in the industry in the 1990's, i knew even then that i needed to bring people up with me. i needed to bring other people up with me, and so that's really been a part of -- you know, maybe it was growing up in a family of six. i don't know, you know? francine: when you run a team, how do you instill that work ethic? that kind of, answering emails at all time? edward: yeah. i mean, you know, i think you

set an example. if you're an editor who leaves and has lunches and is never in the office, you know, you don't really, sort of, instill faith. my team knows that, you know, we're on a mission. we have to reflect the world we live in. we have to reflect, you know, the beauty of multiculturalism. we have to reflect, you know, the beauty in diversity and inclusivity. so everybody takes it really seriously. and we really have intense conversations about the zeitgeist and the world. and so, you know, i'm very lucky to have a team who are as passionate. and, you know, i can call my team, you know, i can call somebody at 6:00 a.m., or they can call me at 6:00 a.m., and i'll pick up, and they'll pick up. so, you know, we have something very special that we've built over the past, sort of, five years. francine: but there were difficult moments, right? i think the first time, one of your first issues, you thought that you could have been fired for it. [laughter] is that right? edward: i mean, i lived in america for a bit, and i was working for "w magazine," and

there was talk of brexit, and, of course, americans were like, "your country's really, you know, xenophobic." so, you know, i came back, and i thought, you know, "oh, i'm going to be working with open arms, and they're going to love me." and, oh, my god, literally baptism by fire. but i remember thinking, you know, i wanted to create a magazine where every woman could see themselves. you know, where every woman, regardless of their background, regardless of their age, could just literally see themselves. and at the time -- now it looks like it's the norm, when you look at other magazines, but in 2017, that was a radical idea. but i also remember thinking, you know, with my background, you know, i've lost so much and gained so much that i thought, if i'm fired, i'd rather be fired for what i believed in. i'd rather be fired for creating a magazine that reflected the

world as it was than try to, sort of, create a second-rate version of someone's vision. francine: and that continues. and there's this idea of always pushing forward. edward: yes. francine: right? what's the end? how do you measure success? edward: how do i measure success? definitely not financial. i mean, i think it's more about -- for me, when i'm really exhausted, when i'm really tired, when i'm really questioning if i can go on, you know, i walk on the street, and i see a little girl, a little black girl who's seeing the magazine, and it's the norm for them. or a curvy woman on a train to paris who's like, "thank you for seeing me," you know, that makes it worthwhile. that, for me, is success. you know, anybody who knows or has known me for a while will witness that that, for me, is success. you know, my job is done when that happens. francine: do people come up to you? edward: they do, but it is always in a positive way. it's always, "thank you for seeing us," you know. but i can relate. because as i said, by all

accounts, i was meant to be invisible. you know? so, for me, shining a light on people and making them seen is natural for me. francine: they say that the fashion industry is changing. you're changing it. are others around you changing it? edward: i mean, now, you know, you look at other magazines, and seeing real women in there, it's no longer a radical act. seeing, you know, people of color, women of color on covers is no longer a radical act. so it's been normalized, and, for me, i'm quite happy when i see that. you know, when you put dame judi dench on the cover, and she's 85-years-old, and the world just loved it. nobody questioned her, you know, "should she be on the cover?" or, you put, you know, a girl with a hijab on the cover, and it's not a problem. that, for me, shows that we're advancing, we're progressing. so, you know, progress for me is very important. francine: which is important. and so, how do you take care of your team? how do you build a team around you? edward: my team -- i mean, you

know, somebody said to me once, "when you build a team, make sure you employ people you like." people, when you see them walking towards your office, you're just so excited to see. [laughter] that was it. being good at your job and, sort of, a connection, and being excited to see team members, because you're only as good as your team, you know? no man is an island, you know? i don't create the magazine on my own. and so, it is great to have a team who you respect and whose views you respect and who respect yours. francine: how do you think you're seen by your team? do you have to be fearful? do you have to be authoritarian or collaborative? edward: i'm a worker. i work very hard, but i think i'm pretty open. you can have conversations with me. you know, ultimately, the final decision rests with me, but i do listen. i like conversation.

i like interaction. and so that's, i mean, that's how -- i hope they think i'm a good boss, and that's, you know, really all you can hope for. because, you know, they work on a very good magazine. they can get other jobs anywhere. [laughter] so the fact that they're there makes me think that they must be happy. francine: edward, how do you see the publishing world changing? so, people buy less magazines. edward: yes. francine: you've been doing pretty well in terms of selling more. [laughter] but in five years, how does it look? edward: i mean, i was like, you know, five years ago -- i mean, let's go back to "i-d." when i was 18, you know, i inherited a magazine, you know, which would come out, it was all about club kids, and you had to be out there. and the only way you could see street fashion was through "i-d." and then 2017, i inherited a magazine. but now, i oversee a brand. you know, the magazine is still there. the magazine is sort of the highest of the high, the best paper, you know, the best photographers, the best, you know, cultural messages. but at the moment, you know,

when you manage a brand, it's not just about that. it's about digital. it's about video. it's about audio. it's about events. so, for somebody who's so forward-looking, it's so great for me. and people always ask, "oh, are magazines dead?" when we launch a cover, instagram is our cover, essentially. so we've found a way of sort of making it work hand in hand, and it's so great for me, you know. i think, had i just been doing the magazine, i probably would've been bored. francine: yeah. so magazines aren't dead. are they going to go down? edward: yeah, but they're going to work in-hand with digital platforms, you know? but also, i'll tell you something. new readers of "vogue," young readers, don't necessarily come to us through the newsstands. they come through our digital platforms or, you know, audio or videos we put out. so, yes, now, it's increased tenfold. so, yeah. francine: do you think that will change the kind of readership that you will court, the, either, age of your readers, but

also where they come from? edward: yes, i mean, at the moment, you know, i think the readership is getting younger because of, you know, the whole digital landscape. and i hope that, as we move forward, it kind of -- yeah. we have new readers, and we also keep our loyal readers, you know? francine: edward, do you think there is ever a time where, actually, we won't have print magazines anymore? edward: no, i think print will always exist sort of alongside digital, but it'll probably be something more precious, sort of better paper, something more collectible that you want to keep in your house, almost like artwork. so, no, i don't think print is going to die. francine: so fewer copies. edward: fewer copies. francine: but more artsy. edward: better quality. francine: almost like a book. edward: you know, coffee table book. francine: i love that. edward: me too. [laughter] ♪ introducing the new sleep number climate360 smart bed. the only smart bed in the world that actively cools, warms and effortlessly responds to both of you. our smart sleepers get 28 minutes more restful sleep per night.

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francine: you were recently on tiktok. edward: yes. [laughter] francine: is that fun? [laughter] edward: so much fun. i literally have to be held back. [laughter] but the brilliant thing is, you know, i'm so curious. i mean, i like all the digital platforms. i really like to keep my finger on the pulse. you know, i'm not one of those people that leaves work and just shuts themselves in. i really want to be out there, seeing the world. i think all is beauty. so, you know, i am very curious. i have a very curious mind. i'm glad, i'm glad, you know? it keeps everything moving and exciting. francine: is that for gen z? is that for commercial purpose, to also get close to -- edward: no, it is curiosity. i've always sort of been like that, sort of wanted to know what's next. i didn't want to be the one that is just being told, "oh, you are 50," or whatever. i pay attention to everything. but, you know, the world is such a beautiful place for me. you know? and it goes back to my childhood, again. francine: what will be your biggest challenge to grow the

brand in the next five years? edward: i think it will be, to still keep it relevant. you know, we have such great digital traffic. you know, almost 6 million every month to british "vogue." but i'm really, sort of, excited about overseeing the european "vogues" as well, spain, italy, germany, and france, and sort of mentoring a whole new generation of editors, you know? when there was this whole amalgamation, the whole world thought there was a global view that was going to dominate, but it's very much about local conversations, as well as global conversations. so i learned from these content leads, and i hope that they also learn. so the local, global conversation. i'm very excited about moving into the future. francine: do you think it changes, if we're in a recessionary environment? so you have such a, you know, glamorous lifestyle, or what you sell is so glamorous. is it impacted by the cost of living or inflation, of what we can live through? edward: yes. i mean, you know, i remember, a

few years ago, i put taylor swift on the cover, and the byline was "buy better, buy less." and it was a radical concept at the time. [laughter] but now, we all talk about sustainability. we know we can't keep shopping every day. we know we have to buy things that last, things that help the planet, things that we can pass on to, sort of, other generations. so i think that really is the conversation that the fashion industry is having right now that i find so exciting. and it's going to be, sort of, you know, people are going to have less money, so they have to buy things that last. and i'm really excited. francine: and these are real changes. edward: real changes. francine: real changes. edward: it's not just conversation. it's actually happening. francine: do you think fashion brands always need to have a political point of view, when there are great injustices? edward: i think fashion brands can do more. i feel that having black models in your show or having, you

know, a feed on your instagram posts, it's not enough. we need diverse voices behind the scenes. i always say, when i talk to sort of all the ceo's i know, we need to employ more people from, you know, diverse backgrounds, because that's the only way you can even reach out to more people, you know? a variety of voices are always better than just one. and i always also say, you know, "let's not just have interns. let's have people on all different levels." and that's what i keep talking to people about. francine: do they listen? edward: some listen. but i think since, you know, george floyd was murdered, more and more companies sort of made pledges to people of color, and, you know, it is a slow process. some have taken it seriously, and some are still working their way through it. but, you know, you have to keep on. francine: the problem is that you can make a pledge and then not follow through. [laughter] edward: i know.

francine: right? edward: i know. so you have to really, sort of, focus and keep asking that question, for people to follow through. francine: so do you feel like you are a guardian also of that, of making sure that, when you get promised something, they will do it, and you'll hold them in to account? edward: i mean, yes, if they promise something that i asked for, i will literally wear you down. [laughter] i will literally chase you, until you keep your promise. that's just who i am. francine: edward, we actually have one of the most diverse cabinets here in the u.k. with liz truss. is that important to you? edward: it is so important, as somebody who came from another country and was, sort of, welcomed by the u.k. it's very important to have a diverse cabinet. that's how change happens, you know? going back to what we discussed before, that's how you understand people who are on the

periphery or who've been othered. it's so important to have a diverse cabinet. francine: but this, you think, in terms of policies and what they can bring to the table or just also seeing, on tv, a diverse cabinet? edward: you know, i hope they can have an effect on policy. i hope they can have an effect on the parties themselves, as well as policy. for me, it's about policy that makes people's lives better. francine: i know you're also very close to ghana still. there is a pretty scandalous anti-lgbt bill getting through. edward: you know, it is so funny. i was invited back to ghana a few years ago by the president. it was the year of the return. francine: yeah. edward: and i remember, the last time we were in ghana, we were fleeing. and i really supported the changes, i loved the changes that we are going through. but yes, they do have an lgbt problem. you know, some friends and i signed a whole -- i don't know if you saw it. francine: yeah. edward: we are doing what we can to change things on the ground.

i think you can't also sit in the west and tell a country what to do. so it is about forming alliances on the ground and seeing what is needed and how we can help, rather than standing on our soapboxes going, "do this, do that, do this." francine: so that's the groundwork, trying to change from within? edward: yes, from within. trying to change from within. you know, talking to heads of lgbtq members and asking them what they need and what we can do to help, rather than, you know, us saying, "do this, this is how you do it." because we don't live there. francine: you have a memoir out. edward: yeah. francine: why put it down on paper? edward: you know, something about when you turn 50. [laughter] you know, something about when it's your fifth year at "vogue," you know? i got married this year. you know, i'm normally not someone who looks back all the time, but it felt like the right time for me to do that. and also, you know, i just felt

that a lot of young people sort of see people like you and i, and they think, you know, we just got here, we were always here, and, for me, it was really important to share the story of a journey about, you know, successes and failures. and, you know, that's the reason why i got here. so i just wanted to share that story with, sort of, young people as well as people who, you know, feel like they're on the outskirts of -- you know, outside the industry, really. francine: do you feel like an outsider? edward: i think i'll always feel like an outsider, but as i said before, you know, i grew up african, in an african household in england. you know, different languages, different foods. and then i'll go to school, and i'll be in england. so i've always been about duality. i've always seen myself as an outsider, but also an insider. and even when, you know, i took the job at british "vogue," i was the black, gay, working-class outsider, but, you know, i'd been in the industry since i was 18, so i was, in

essence, an insider. so that's really -- it's about the duality that plays out in my life. francine: well, who do you think made you the person you are today? i know you left home twice, right? ghana, but also you had to leave your home. edward: yes. i mean, the person who made me who i am really is my mother. i mean, i loved my mother. she taught me about, sort of, beauty. she taught me about clothes, about fashion. she also taught me that beauty came in all forms. that, you know, women were beautiful, no matter what shape they were, no matter what color, what religion. and so, that really stayed with me, and i guess that my creativity comes from her. and, of course, i also had a military father, so the idea of precision and organization and, sort of, thinking ahead also comes from him. so the best of both worlds, i'll say. francine: how did your father -- i know you had a difficult

relationship with your father. how did your father shape the person you are today? edward: it's so funny you should ask this question, because i never thought i was like my father, growing up. you know, i was very shy, very sensitive, you know, a little spacey. i preferred the company of women to men. my dad was, sort of, you know, authoritarian, disciplinarian. you know, you had to be home at a certain time. you know, he ruled with an iron fist. francine: yeah. edward: and i thought, you know, i'm never going to be like him. you know, he kicked me out of the house, you know, when i was 18. but i found out that, over the years, when it comes to work and discipline and, sort of, organization, that is him to a tee. ♪

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