emily: so, i saw a "shark tank" trailer. tony: yeah. emily: that's going to be fun. tony: that's going to be fun. emily: what was the most, like, surprising thing about it? tony: how kind mr. wonderful actually is. [laughter] how soft he is, i guess. yeah, he's a really nice guy.

emily: did it give you any flashbacks to your yc days and the panic days of early entrepreneurship? tony: yes. yes and that they do about 45 minutes of shooting for seven minutes of airing. emily: yeah. tony: and so, if the entrepreneur makes a mistake, and there are a few of these, it's totally fine. a♪ young tony: i'm tony, and i was a product editor at square. >> and the four of us came together about six months ago to work on software for small business owners. emily: that is the application video tony xu and his doordash co-founders submitted to get a ticket into y combinator's prestigious startup accelerator back in 2013. fast-forward nearly 10 years later, and doordash has gone from a struggling food delivery story to a public company that is the u.s. leader in delivery. but the big question facing companies now is how to navigate a potentially prolonged economic downturn. joining me on this edition of

"bloomberg studio 1.0", doordash ceo and co-founder tony xu. tony, it is so great to see you. tony: great to see you, too, emily. emily: in person. tony: i know! emily: you went public in the pandemic, we were talking remotely, but there is nothing quite like an in-person interview, so thank you for being here. tony: it's great to be here. emily: you basically grew up in a restaurant, as i understand it. what was it like leaving china,

moving to illinois, and starting this new life? tony: it was a classic immigrant story. in many ways, i would say, looking back, almost a fairytale-like journey, where, you know, my parents came to the u.s. with $250 in the bank. we immigrated to illinois, champaign-urbana. my dad got his degree at the university of illinois. my mom put food on the table by working three jobs a day, one of which did happen to be in a chinese restaurant, where i moonlighted as a dishwasher. so, i got to hang out with mom that way, as a way of growing up. and i did that, i mowed lawns. and that is really kind of how i saved up money to buy nintendo games and do all the things that were the wonders of my childhood. emily: what do you think you learned from that? you know, mowing lawns early, washing dishes early? tony: i think two things. one, looking backwards, it is just that you have to work to actually get things done. i didn't understand what it meant to live off of food stamps, to buy groceries, or free and reduced lunch, every day, inside school. but it was a very empowering feeling to buy my own nintendo or earn my way to buy my first apple computer. the second thing was, really, just the power of independent thinking. you know, my parents, because they were so busy just trying to make a life for our family, that i was largely left alone. so, i grew up playing basketball, watching tv. that's how i learned english. i grew up moving around a lot as a kid. and as a result, i think that gave me a lot of time to realize that it is pretty important to think for yourself. emily: so, you studied engineering at berkeley.

tony: i did. emily: you went to business school at stanford. and you actually started out as an intern at square. tony: i did. emily: i can't tell you how many people have said to me, "tony xu was my intern at square." [laughter] like, that is how long i have been doing this. and how, you know, doordash just kind of came out of nowhere. tony: yeah, you know, it was actually pretty stiff competition between finishing school -- jack dorsey and keith rabois were trying to convince me to leave stanford and work at square full-time. it was a fun and busy period of my time. but i enjoyed both. emily: how did the idea for doordash come about? and the decision not to work for jack dorsey and square, which i'm sure was also kind of intoxicating, right? tony: the idea for doordash really came from this, you know, lifelong interest in helping these physical business owners, really, people like my mom. so, we talked to hundreds of small business owners. and it was surprising to us that, even in 2013, delivery was not a solved problem. there were business owners who would show us, literally, booklets of delivery orders that

they would refuse. i mean, we are talking about thousands of dollars per week, which is the difference, sometimes, between making payroll and actually surviving. and they would just turn them down because they were delivery orders, which, to us, was a really novel and unfortunate phenomenon and, frankly, an unnecessary one. that really became the impetus to start doordash. emily: you started out driving for competitors, right? tony: i was driving for a lot of different services to try to actually understand, you know, logistics. my background, as you mentioned, more in engineering, math. i thought i was going to be a cancer researcher. i mean, that is pretty much what i spent all of my undergraduate days at berkeley doing. that kind of 180'ed into a world of business. so, i think it's really important to really learn things for yourself, to think from first principles. kind of, again, back to the independent thinking mindset i talked about as a child growing up. emily: did you drive for uber or lyft? tony: i even drove for services that were a little bit older, services like fedex or domino's, to really try to explore, you know, how does delivery work? i was really trying to

understand every component part. i mean, it sounds really simple, right? bring you a burrito from point a to point b. but there were actually 20 steps involved in that delivery. it just didn't appear as obvious to, you know, the naked eye. so, the first two years of doordash's life, we did deliveries almost every single day. emily: so where did you go from there? i mean, early days, i know. elon musk has said, "starting a company is like swallowing glass and staring into the abyss of death." tony: one of the first ones came actually as early as month three of the company's life. so, we were maybe 11 weeks, 12 weeks old as a company. there was a big stanford football game in september. and long story short, we were late on every single order. and we had no ability to turn off the site. it was just horrendous. everyone in the company, all 12 of us, were delivering. [laughter] and everyone, rightfully so, was furious because of how late we were. and so, we had a decision to make. do we do the right thing and refund every single customer,

which would have cost us about 40% of our bank account, or do we, you know, do a less-right thing and survive another day? because it was very hard for us, at that time, to raise capital, which was something true for doordash's early history. and, you know, it took us about 30 seconds to click "submit refund". the lesson for us always, as a founding team, and, frankly, even today, as a company, is we would rather die chasing excellence than live to be mediocre. emily: it wasn't so obvious either in the earlier years. i remember in 2016, you did a down round. i think you actually came on the show around that time. how did you weather the doubters and, you know, the people who did not believe? tony: there were about 1,000 days in the desert between 2016, 2017, and 2018. [laughter] sometimes, with company building, so long as you can convince yourself -- because time is your most precious

resource -- you should keep going. and if you can keep going long enough, you might get lucky enough to make it. emily: so, over time, how did you balance quality with the need and desire to scale and then scale globally? tony: in these types of businesses, where it is low-margin, high complexity, you really have to figure out what your unit of business is. you know, for us, that was a city. so, in order to -- before going to 7,000 or 10,000 cities globally, we made one city work. and after city one worked, we made city two work. and after we started getting higher and higher confidence that we can make baskets of cities work, irrespective of the geographies or what, you know, the customer situation looked like, or what the merchant makeup was, then we gained the confidence to actually roll out everywhere. emily: then came the pandemic. brian chesky has said the pandemic was like a torpedo for airbnb. was it like, the opposite for doordash? tony: it was like the biggest wave behind our back.

which, you know, had the ability to break us -- [laughter] -- and almost did, because we grew 2x in two weeks. we went from a singular u.s. restaurant delivery business -- that's what you and i would be talking about in 2019 -- to, today, five businesses in 27 countries. you know, much more than just restaurants. and so, all of that was created in the last two years. emily: the big question is, how much do customers keep ordering out in a high-inflation environment? a♪

emily: doordash went public in the middle of the pandemic. and i remember, actually, you were coming on bloomberg, and the price doubled at the opening. we were coming out of, obviously, terrible economic times, you know, the depths of the pandemic. what did that feel like when, you know, you are going out into the world, starting to sell to public investors, and the price just doubles? tony: it was certainly very exciting. it was exhilarating. it was the first time that our company went public. [laughter] the first time that i had ever undergone any of those types of experiences before. but, in the back of my head, you know, it was that saying that you are never as good or as bad as they say you are. so, just remember that. emily: so tease that out for me a little bit. the big question is, how much do customers keep ordering out in a high-inflation environment? how much long-term sustainability and growth is there, really?

tony: even though covid is now effectively sustained, and we understand how to live with it, customers are continuing to order. those that joined us during the pandemic, they are still ordering at about the same rates as those who joined us before the pandemic. that is because eating out and getting things delivered are pretty complementary. on the second point around inflation, i can say, in the last 60 years, in looking at the data, spend in restaurants and in grocery have only declined in response two of those 60 years, including high inflationary times much higher than what we observe today. and so, what i think i take solace in, even though i see the take solace's fact that there is high inflation, is that customers customers are going to continue spending on food. and our job is to bring greater and greater affordability. emily: more broadly, the economy is in a tough position. your competitors have announced layoffs and hiring freezes and slowdowns. is doordash considering any of these? tony: i think we have been fortunate, mostly because most

of our investments that happened during the pandemic really were 's meant to build new businesses. and those new businesses have continued to grow. new businesses beyond restaurants, in categories like grocery, convenience, or retail. new businesses overseas. we announced a large acquisition in wolt, where that really helped double our overall addressable market to 700 million people. new business in building an advertising businesses. new businesses expanding our services and building a platform to help businesses build their own digital operations. emily: do you see doordash as more of a super app of the future, or is it something different? tony: i see doordash as really solving two problems. problem one is, how do we bring incremental demand to all of the physical businesses, as they house kind of figure out their own digital in-house capabilities? and the second problem we are trying to solve is bringing tools to these businesses.? who doesn't, and why?

tony: delivery is a scale economies game. at the end of the day, you can survive even doing deliveries since from a singular store. there are still mom-and-pop pizza shops and chinese restaurants that do their own delivery. emily: do you see doordash as a challenger to, like, walmart, amazon? tony: well, i see doordash as a champion of local businesses and physical businesses. i don't think that a world in which we just get what we want to buy or consume for a few places is a world that, again, is as worth enjoying living in. so our job is to make sure that all of these businesses, all of the millions of physical businesses globally, can continue to compete. emily: i do a lot of doordash. helps me be a working mom. whenever i interview you, i get pings from dashers. and some of them say they don't get paid enough. some of them seem pretty angry. what's your response to them? tony: we want the local economy to grow and to thrive. that includes dashers. we have 3 million dashers that come to the platform every single quarter, and so it is really important to me what they say. it's, in fact, why the company, myself included, we still dash, do deliveries, in other words, something once a month. emily: you still do deliveries

once a month? tony: yes. it's why we have a dasher community council that we started three, four years ago now. emily: i want to see one of your memos after a delivery. are you, like, sending notes? [laughter] tony: it's not even after the delivery. texting i'm texting -- well, not texting while i'm driving, but texting after i complete the order. emily: from your deliveries, what have you learned? tony: everything. all of the details. everything from pay considerations, everything from operations that's operations at a store, you know, which stores are a bit faster in their operations, or more consistent, which stores are less consistent? where do you find the last parking space in downtown san francisco? all of these details matter. they matter for efficiency. they matter for driver pay. they matter for merchant earnings. so and so, as a result, you know, what i say to dashers is, please continue to talk to me. i am just tony at doordash. and we are always trying to make things better. we are not saying that we're perfect.

but when we look at the data we have collected, you know, the average dasher is making $24, $25 an hour nationwide when they are doing deliveries. and so, most dashers are pretty satisfied. emily: so, doordash has been expanding internationally. it sounds like you are on the road a lot. tony: i am on the road. [laughter] i am on the road. emily: u.s., canada, australia, japan. where else? where next? tony: germany, you know, israel, finland, a lot of the nordics. so, we are in 27 countries. and a lot of that is run by, you know, the wolt team that we were lucky to partner with. emily: beyond wolt, how are you thinking about m&a? are there any verticals or areas in particular where you might be interested in acquiring? tony: you know, we have five businesses, the u.s. restaurants business, the new categories business with a focus on convenience and grocery, non-u.s. international, 27 countries, our b2b business, and our ads business.

so, we have quite a full plate. on m&a specifically, it is a high bar. m&a, i think, sometimes looks a lot better on paper than can be achieved in reality. and i think it's because you're talking about, at the end of the day, combining human organizations, not just businesses or products or lines on a spreadsheet. i think you have to deliver upon that promise. and so, for us, the bar isn't just, does it add to our business, but does it actually add to our culture? emily: you have been piloting rapid delivery. right? but rapid delivery seems to be contracting. what are you seeing in your pilots? is this something where you think you will expand, or no? tony: so, i think customers are always going to have expectations that go in one direction. right? i do not think we are going to want things delivered more slowly over time, or at higher prices, or with less selection. our core use case right now is lunch and dinner, which is highly repetitive, highly profitable, which allows us to invest in things like fast deliveries. i take that with, you know, great pride. i also take it with great responsibility. remembering to invest in those who maybe don't come from privileged backgrounds. a♪

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- [narrator] reach your career goals at snhu.edu. seems high. seriously? it's just a bike. wait. they make a treadmill with an intuitive speed knob? yeah. want to try? 92% stick with it, so can you. rent a peloton bike or bike+. terms apply. emily: you bought chowbotics last year but shut it down. this is robotic kiosks, right? i'm curious how are you thinking about ai and, you know, uber shut down its self-driving stuff, then they started it back up. how are you thinking about ai and moon shots and some of this, you know, potential new technology and how it could help doordash, or not? like, is it just not ready for prime time? tony: when it comes to platform shifts or new technologies, ai, autonomy, other types of technologies, i tend to like to make the investment.

i think that's a more appropriate choice, to not miss the shift. however, i think it's very important to get the pacing right. i still think that the merits behind what, you know, we we were trying to do in partnership with the chowbotics team was the right idea, in which we can help restaurants effectively build, you know, a cheaper cost product. that is ultimately what we were trying to do. she but we weren't ready yet, with the technology. emily: you recently joined meta's board. what's it like working with mark zuckerberg? tony: it has been fantastic. you know, it has been a terrific learning experience. you know, learning from mark, all the way to the incredible management team at that company. it has a broad mandate of different products, and as well as initiatives, and it has been a privilege. emily: facebook and meta, you know, a very controversial platform. there's, you know, controversy about whether facebook is really good for the world, whether facebook should have as much

power as it should. how do you think about that, and how are you advising mark about how to use that power? tony: "with great power comes great responsibility." and i think facebook has a lot of influence. and meta's different properties, as i'm sure you cover, serve billions of people, you know, every single day. and that is an enormous privilege and an enormous responsibility that they take incredibly seriously. emily: like, should any company be more powerful than multiple governments combined? tony: i don't think i see it, you know, exactly that way, right? because it is still a contract between the company and its users. i think what is important for meta to do -- and they are doing this, absolutely -- is how do we set the guard rails, you know, to make it fair, safe for everyone? and this is very, very, very difficult. emily: you are also an investor, tony: i am an investor. emily: in a number of different startups. emily: one of them is alchemy. tony: yes. emily: web3 company. tony: yes. is emily: any plans to accept crypto? any chance for doordash to accept crypto?

is tony: crypto right now is going through a period where it is trying to figure out what is next, in terms of its use case. i think everyone, myself included, very bullish on the technology of what the blockchain enables. emily: what do you think could be the future of blockchain technology in food delivery, in delivery in general? tony: well, i don't know if it is going to get applied directly, you know, to food or to delivery. i mean, i think it absolutely has the potential to create a new economic infrastructure, right? you know, an economic infrastructure that can really serve as the basis for new banking systems, etc. and so, i think that's something more that is tangential to the world of delivery. obviously, payments is one part of what we do, but it is not the central thing. emily: so, we are going to do a little rapid fire now. tony: ok. emily: a little quicker, fun questions. tony: sure. emily: favorite food? tony: i have ordered from 1,100 different doordash restaurants. emily: wow. tony: so, i actually like to try tony: so, i actually like to try

everything. emily: your business idol? tony: there are people in retail that i have admired. you know, the people that founded everything from walmart to costco. the team at amazon, you know, in e-commerce. the team -- elon musk and what he is trying to do. emily: what about elon musk buying twitter? tony: if he has time to run a third company, i think that would be fantastic for the world. emily: you grew up in illinois. tony: yeah. emily: you live in california. you like basketball. tony: yeah. emily: basketball, your favorite team? tony: bulls. emily: bulls, not warriors? tony: i grew up in the golden days of, michael jordan, you know, scottie pippen, and, actually, both the early 1990's as well as the later 1990's, in which they won three in a row. i'm still a bulls diehard, even though we are in a rough patch right now. [laughter] emily: i hear you also like to run. you run marathons? tony: well, i don't run marathons today, so just to be clear. [laughter] but i do run every day. so, that has been my sanctuary,

if you will, for the past 10 years. emily: your kids are still pretty young. how do you think having kids has changed you as a leader? tony: you know, i think kids are amazing in that they are experiencing the world for the first time. being able to listen versus to, versus you know, talk at or to dictate an opinion, you know, i think, that has been, you know, a big lesson. i think the second one is the power of curiosity. you know, kids, especially my kids, at their ages of two and four, are asking the question kids "why?" a lot. and i think it is the best question. emily: it is also so hard! tony: and it's so hard to answer, because, you know, it best requires clarity of thinking on everything, on the most basic things to more complicated things. emily: how has being an asian-american ceo impacted your experience? tony: well, i think being an asian growing up where i was the only asian -- and that was kind of my experience in illinois -- certainly had a big experience where it very directly, you know, i saw firsthand, you know, whether it was bullying or discrimination. but i think if i were to more broadly classify that to the serve privileged position that i

am in today, i'm still a minority in the sense that there aren't as many asian-american ceo's or founders as maybe founders from other backgroundss recognize that. and then i think, secondly, to lws keep the underdog mentality. emily: do you think you faced more challenges than others because asian-american ceo's are so underrepresented? i mean, asian americans are underrepresented in leadership roles in tech, full stop. tony: i can't say that for me personally in building doordash was that the experience. but, look, i think you are right in calling out that when i look around me, and when i look at especially public company founders and ceo's -- a, there are not that many. b, when you start filtering for those, you know, from asian descent, it's a much, much smaller list. and so, i take that with great

pride. i also take it with great responsibility. and really, again, remembering to invest in those who maybe don't come from privileged right backgrounds, giving them an equal shot at it, and to ring always to stay hungry. emily: you changed your name to tony when you moved -- tony: when i was five, yeah. emily: -- to the u.s., you are five years old. after tony danza, who was the star of "who's the boss?" tony: correct. [laughter] emily: i love that. tony: i did. no one could pronounce my chinese name. so, i said, ok, well, let's just make it easier. so, i walked with my dad to the immigration office and legally changed my name. emily: did life change, did it feel like life changed after that? tony: it felt a lot easier to say, "hi, i'm tony." [laughter] emily: what's it like being the boss now? tony: honestly, i think -- i don't see myself that way. and i recognize that that is probably not how others view me. but i really view myself as a

teammate. and, you know, for me, i think it is trying to make that actually true. make the reality of how i feel true to the perception that maybe others have of me as the boss and making that distance shorter and shorter. a♪

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