matt: stocks are paring gains after speculation the fed may need to hike rates yet again. let's take a quick check of what's going on the markets. we are still up in the s&p 500, 4168 of the level we had been up more on optimism that the debt ceiling debate -- negotiations are progressing. we see the 10 year yield rising a little bit now as investors let go of that debt worry.

why own today's debt if they are going to raise rates and you can get it with a better coupon tomorrow is the argument as these yields rides, -- rise, it makes a headwind for stocks. the bloomberg dollar index continues to gain and this is the third day in a row. we had seen the pattern of a gaining dollar and investors coming in and selling that rally. it hasn't happened in the last three days of getting up to some pretty serious strength in nymex crude coming down. amid all of this investors still are optimistic on a u.s. debt deal is speaker ken mccarthy says expect the house to consider an agreement next week. robert to papeete and fixed income spoke earlier about the chances of the deal soon. >> what looks like to me is that both come to the table and giving each other something to work with and they will put

something to rest. and we will move on. matt: joining us for more on today's debt briefing is laura davidson. what do we hear from mccarthy and what do we hear from chuck schumer? >> the past 48 hours optimism has lifted incredibly. both sides are saying they're working on a deal and talking about specifically think they can have something on paper as soon as this weekend to have a vote in the house next week. you have kind of seen the stages of dealmaking in washington happen quickly. there will still be some pickups along the road given that the house freedom caucus, the most conservative faction of the house, likes to come in at the last minute and throw some riddles in the road. we've seen that happen before even on bills they like like the tax cuts with last-minute wrangling on the floor. expect to see some of those bumps is this goes on.

both parties a right now they are full steam ahead and republicans are still pushing for more work requirements and democrats said they don't want to hurt poor people but they are negotiating the details and coming up with the messaging they consulted both sides. matt: what is the deeper story on the work requirements? weird kevin mccarthy point out that president biden voted for this when he was on the floor of the senate and that it's going to affect people without dependence who are working age. why is the democratic party against this? >> we've seen a changing view and the pandemic at large impact on this on how these social programs should apply to people. we saw things like lots of experiments with child tax credits in the earned income tax credit and benefit programs being extended and now this is sort of a contraction not just on the pandemic level and that's where you see democrats really getting into it, anything that

would take away benefits from lower and middle-class americans. republicans are saying this is something we need to deal with with spending. they both see some political advantages doing this but there are also some downsides. matt: i'm sure everyone wants to pass out money but we cannot do that forever. do the democrats have any red lines or is the only redline not defaulting? >> not defaulting and biden put on the table anything that affected medicaid which was a redline earlier this week. for democrats, you see some consternation within the party that if they don't like these work requirements for things like snap benefits. these are things they are weighing which is a deal that some work requirements that we don't love or do we default and for them that's a tricky answer that they will choose to not default. matt: we have been listening to

lael brainard who runs the nec but also to vice president, harris. is she trying to take a big role in this and trying to raise her profile through this? >> it's an interesting thing to watch. she hasn't been involved until the last couple of days. biden has brought her in. this solves a practical problem for him as he is out of the country in the intention is to have kamala harris dealing on these domestic issues. it also solves a political issue that's been popping up with donors and other democrats have not been satisfied with kamala harris and they don't think she's done a good job. for the president put her out here on these issues like when they are about to get a deal could elevate her at a time which is critically important and there are questions about what her role is going forward. matt: thanks very much.

there is a lot to cover in washington right now. joining us is ira jersey to talk about the rates side of the story. he is our u.s. rates chief. i think the new specter we are all confronting is if we do get the debt limit raised, we still have some problems in the form of issuance that could be up to $1 trillion in t-bills. does that ring true to you? >> we have that number at 750 billion so worry -- so we are in that range of how much additional t-bill issuance there could be in a hurry. some of that will be frontloaded. i think the market can absorb it easily enough. it's more a matter of some of the innerworkings and how the typing of the financial sector work. when the dish wind up with that much issuance, most people don't realize this but the federal reserve is the bank for the

government. when the government's checking account goes up, that actually comes out of something else on the fed balance sheet and is probably bank reserves and bank deposits and we know what happens and can happen when you have large at -- outflows quickly of bank deposits like in march. size wise, this will be akin to that. i don't think it will be a hundred percent out of bank deposits but they will be a large portion of this debt issuance the government has to do that could wind up reducing bank reserves and thereby potentially having us reach the reserve tipping point which is something that hasn't happened since 2019. matt: we were just looking at the treasury cash balance. right now, it it's under $100 billion. why would they have to jacket up to 750 billion? that's like a pandemic era level

. before that, it was just under 500 billion dollars for a while back in the 1990's. >> there is a couple of pieces to that. the treasury automatically will increase it $400 billion. that is where the treasury department wants the cash balance to be. they want to be able to absorb if there is any issues with paying bills in the future because of any kind of problems. the $400 billion is a given. the other 300 billion dollars is still to fund the deficit. we still have a large deficit and a lot of that is to fund the interest payments on the debt itself. that just needs to be funded as well and we haven't been funding it. they had paid dennis significant amount of t-bills over the last couple of months. year to date, usually get large

t-bill issuance in order to cover things like tax refunds in february and march. those haven't occurred in the same time this year mostly because of the debt limit. there is a lot of demand for t-bills because they don't exist but on the other side, you have people still putting money into money market mutual funds because the yields are so attractive given the alternatives of bank deposits and some angst about risk assets like equities. matt: there is a rising expectation that the fed could boost rates again in june, what's your view? >> i don't think they will. it's not completely out of the question. you heard lori logan from the federal reserve bank sounding hawkish this morning but i wouldn't take that as gospel. we have a lot of data still to come we will have another cpi report before the june meeting. i think they will wait and see but the important thing now is for the federal reserve to jawbone their way out of the cuts that are being priced.

pricing out those cuts will still tighten financial conditions and that's with the federal reserve wants to do. there is another way to tighten financial conditions other than heightened and i think the fed needs to try that approach first. matt: ira jersey, thank you so much for joining us. time now for bloomberg's first word news. jojhn: more signs of progress on raising the u.s. debt ceiling. house speaker kevin mccarthy says he sees a debt limit deal being considered by next week. he says negotiators are in a better place now. the u.s. supreme court has left in place a broad liability shield for social media companies for content posted by users. acting in a case involving google, they said they would not to limit the immunity internet companies have enjoyed. in hiroshima today, joe biden

met with the japanese prime minister. the two agreed to work together in china but stressed the importance of cooperating with china on shared challenges. hungary will block further european aid to ukraine. the hungarian foreign minister calls it a kindred addition increase lee belligerent avid -- attitude on ukraine. they singled out hungary's largest bank for doing business in russia. global news powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in over 120 countries, this is bloomberg. ♪

matt: this is bloomberg markets. wal-mart reporting its results this morning and the stock, let's see it. it is up still but is given up

some of the gains we saw. the company beat quarterly earnings and revenue expectations and raised its forecast just slightly, the street was already there so a little bit of catch-up. joining us for more is simone foxman. . talk to us first about walmart and the increase in the car that's still there. simine: strong same-store sales, 7.4% in u.s. store sales and this is a story of the u.s. consumer continuing to go to walmart and continuing to spend. it's much larger than the street anticipated so we are seeing store sales up so at sam's club, strong performance there. the question is you see u.s. consumers going to walmart but are they going because they are trading down from other brands? one of the things that walmart pointed out is they are seeing

an influx of young, high income consumers in a way they had not before. consumers are willing to pay for more expensive items. matt: it's important to get good beef. in terms of the headwinds facing the company, inflation is still a concern and food stamps could be an issue especially if you get a reduction of those through work requirements in this new debt ceiling negotiation. simone: they said they already felt the impact from snap benefits falling and it's a concern moving forward. you see a wide swath of consumers going to walmart. you see a little bit higher income consumers going to target and maybe that explains their weakness but walmart, you are seeing a broader range. there are other headwinds on the horizon as well.

inflation is one and i think the message on the earnings call was they are cautious about where the consumer -- where the consumer goes for -- from here. maybe that's why we are seeing c-shares retrace. matt: we had home depot, we had target and are they giving us one constant narrative? simone: they are talking about a consumer that while spending, largely still employed is starting to be concerned about their future prospects. they are making changes and maybe spending on stuff but not services but they are spending less and going to the store is less and when they can, they go for the discounts like t.j. maxx and marshall's. t.j. maxx reporting strong comp sales yesterday. matt:t we heardjx has a slightly higher in consumer but is says walmart can benefit from its corei lower consumer stepping

down a case of a recession. simone: it has the private label that can be tapped and consumers choosing to go private label and this is the store brands, once they get stuck on this, the private label is pretty good. there is also some discussion we have heard today from smead capital, where is the consumer weakness? is at the bottom 25%, the top 25%? in both cases, walmart may be a beneficiary. the street is incredibly bullish on walmart. going into these earnings, there were zero analysts followed by bloomberg that were saying sell the stock in a vast majority were saying bye. when we look at the price movements today, maybe people got ahead of himself and were coming back to earth and maybe a lot of this is priced in. matt: 37 buys and 11 holds in

the average prices $134. thank you very much. thanks for giving us a rap of the walmart earnings and still ahead, we will speak with nina flynn why some family offices are headed to stocks and private equities and we will talk about the high network individuals. this is bloomberg. ♪ the first time your sales reached 100k with godaddy was also the first time your profits left you speechless. at the counter or on the go, save 20% with the lowest transaction fees and keep more of what you make. start saving today at godaddy.com

matt: this is bloomberg markets. time now for the wall street beat. family offices that manage money for the ultra-wealthy are getting ready to unleash a stockpile of cash into public and private markets according to a survey by goldman sachs. meena flynn joins us now to discuss this. sonali: thank you for joining

us. you recently done this survey of family offices in york with many of them. what is the idea about pouring more money into equities? is there a since there is a bottom? >> the reason why people find the survey interesting is it does provide a window into the making a family offices and how are they thinking of investing and their operating businesses and what is top of mind. we surveyed 160 families across the globe and more than 70% had more than $1 billion in assets. we hosted a family office symposium this week were many things that came out of the survey were underscored. as it relates to your question on equities and putting money to work, the majority of the families suggested they are looking to put more money into alternatives and equities but i want to underscore to the extent that the opportunities arise. these families of multigenerational long-duration

capital. they are strategic in their thinking but they could be opportunistic and nimble. to the extent we get a selloff on the debt ceiling, they will look to incrementally add an take advantage of that volatility. sonali: even if there is volatility around the debt ceiling that provides those opportunities, what does that mean for people who might be worried about a recession on the heels of any debt ceiling resolution? >> the thing about a recession is that it probably a coin toss in terms of resolution but we've been talking about a recession for over a year and these families have had time to think about how to plan for that. what you seen is you have relatively elevated cash balances and they have extended their duration and the fixed income side. matt: in terms of what they are looking for on the fixed income side, are they just looking for investment grade corporate debt

or are they willing to go out into high yields? >> as it relates to the liquidity portion of their portfolio, municipals which is investment grade debt but one of the things you saw in the survey and the first one several years ago, is a large allocation to alternatives. over 40% of their portfolios allocate to alternatives. within alternatives, one of the ways these families can be optimistic is where will i allocate my capital as it is recycled or i've got incremental capital put to work. that's coming in and private credit, private real estate credit, secondary equity and secondary private equity. you talk about private credit, you're getting 10% first lien returns. you're getting 20% almost on second lien. while it hasn't and is topical for these families in the past because it is ordinary income, when you look at returns that are equity-like returns but

higher in the capital structure, that is when these families get more interested in they can put it in their foundation. matt: private credit has been very popular over the last six months. you also point out these family offices can be a savior when it comes to commercial real estate on that side. obviously, that industry is going through difficulties and there is money here that can prop it up. >> absolutely and real estate is not a new thing to these families. historically, it's been a great hedge against inflation is the third largest asset class excluding residential so they are familiar with it. we've got $1 trillion of commercial real estate debt coming in over the next year. one third that is held by banks. the yields are going to go up across the board as you get tighter credit standards. these families will do it two ways, they will extend credit to buildings they are happy to own or they will do it in fund form.

right now, the majority of their interest is on the credit side of real estate but over time as markets really reset, you will see them starting to get involved in the equity as well. sonali: you have a new hot topic in town. the worries are in commercial real estate but the excitement is around ai. a lot of large hedge fund managers and family offices are diving in here. are you seeing more activity happening on the public or private side? >> it's definitely all that chatter after we had our symposium and it was topical in our conversations. it's a nascent interest industry so people are interested in generative ai in the are wondering how to invest in the. the collective thinking from our clients is multi fold. yes, make cap tech already has investments there with huge cash balances in the rnd to continue to make those investments and we think $150 billion is in

software alone. we think the economic productivity gain of ai is $7 trillion over the next 10 years. that's a 1.5% productivity gain and 400 basis points of margin improvement. take that margin improvement so if you are investing in companies public or private that are using this technology to run their businesses more efficiently, they will be winners. you have mega cap tech, how will you use it more efficiently? you also have companies that have access to private information that is unique, large data they can use these large language models and apply it to create something very differentiated. to your point also on the private markets, direct investments in ai companies. matt: very topical indeed, thank you very much. we are doing our wall street beach. we will get insight on hedging risk in the market from the

chief operating officer at universa. that's next, this is bloomberg. ♪ as a business owner, your bottom line

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>> welcome to the bloomberg audiences. i am john hyland with the first word news. president biden hopes to be reelected next year by defending his victories in 2020 states. a memo obtained by bloomberg news by his campaign manager says democrats strengthened their hands in special elections but there is growing speculation that ron desantis is challenging trump for presidential election. he is meeting in miami for next week. donors expect to make fundraising calls on behalf of desantis. rishi sunak appears to have back down on his conservative party

pledge to curb migration. reporters traveling with him to the g7 summit asked and he refused to complete the commitment. montana has officially banned tiktok. it prohibits app stores from offering the app to users in the state. global news 24 hours a day, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in over 120 countries. i am john highly. this is bloomberg. >> welcome to bloomberg markets. i'm jon erlichman. matt: and i am matt. we had big gains earlier that

are now reduced. 4170, up 0.3%. coming down a little bit on concern that the fed may have to raise rates yet again. but the optimism about a get silly negotiation really persists here. do have the 10-year yield rising right now to 3.6 three as investors sell off the debt. willing to let go of government debt. on the other hand, that provides higher yield. a bit of a headwind to stocks. slowing down some gains you are going to see in the s&p 500 -- s&p 500. the u.s. dollar up to 1240.94. we have oil coming down about $1.19 to $71.64. take a look at the breakdown of the s&p 500 in terms of industry groups.

you will see that we really only have tech holding up the s&p. real estate is down, consumer staples is down, health care is down. maybe that is good. if investors are selling these defensive sectors, but tech and communication's are rising. what is communications services? it's a bad name for a group of stocks that are really just tech stocks. it includes a video game and netflix, obviously a streaming service. jon: that's a very healthy hit. you're looking at the nasdaq 100 performance today with netflix near the top of the charts. the company's ad supported two-year is nearing 5 million subscribers. we are going to talk a little bit more about that one later in the program. staying with your point about tech, nvidia has been stronger. we are looking at alibaba under pressure. e-commerce activity revenue not

exactly pleasing the street. speaking of china, that was one of the conversation points with canada goose. they sell parkas around the world. the rebound there seemed to be helping sales. however, comments on their operating martians -- operating margins leading the softening in the stock. it is down about 13%. what is holding gains on the day is walmart, still up 1%. it is a top performer today after an encouraging set of results. obviously, the grocery part of the business is still helping out. people are coming into the stores and may be willing to buy some discretionary items, even if the economic story is looking somewhat uncertain. matt: a lot to digest as investors look over recent economic data and judge how u.s. debt talks are faring. some people see the current environment as an opportunity. >> you are in this sort of limbo

where the data is not clear-cut. for us, that's perfect. it is the perfect oldie locks backdrop, a bit of food for thought for the bulls and the bears. rate cuts are not being priced out yet because we see u.s. headline inflation going toward 3% in the next couple of you -- couple of months. it is beating expectations, but not too much. inflation heading lower. lisa: for more insight on the markets, let's bring in brandon yarckin, which is causally associated with the black swan author and our wall street correspondent. sonali: thank you for joining us. i think it is worth talking about. there are some he fears in the market here about a potential recession, about any macro risks that might not be immediately seen. when you are thinking about hedging against market risks now , what are you doing?

what is the most effective way to be protecting against anything that can go wrong at this point, given more volatility is right now? brandon: thank you all for having me, by the way. it is great to see you. the way that we approached mid getting risks is to think about things strategically rather than tactically. tactical is talking about your narrative and what your views are on current events. when you think about things strategically, what does that mean? regardless of these current events, clients will take 1% to 2% out of their equity portfolio and allocate it to us in terms of their total portfolio. therefore, with that, we are hedging the remaining 99%. with that tiny allocation, we have been able to lower their equity risk while raising their portfolio rate of compounding. if i want to think about how we have applied that over the past

15 years, it's exactly what we have been able to do. we have been able to do that over the shorter term, over the sonali: past five years. sonali:brandon, i want to be clear, part of the reason universa is known for this is your place in the options market. when you think about the way people are looking to hedge the market right now, i look at gold. you have people talking about buying gold, even though they know it has not historically held up in a market like this. what do you think about those kinds of moves, given the unknown? brandon: it is the right type of question, to take a specific scenario right now and say that may be gold is the right hedge. why not bonds or something else? we are all going to get those tactical narratives wrong. if we think about trying to be strategic, what does that mean? what happens if i'm wrong about my opinion on gold?

how much is that going to cost my portfolio, relative to what it is going to pay off in a crash? what we try to do differently here is think about portfolio construction in that context and focus on highly explosive returns and crashes. lisa: there has been obviously a number -- jon: we were just talking about having tech up again today. i believe the nasdaq 100 is up 25% this year. what do you make of that? brandon: again, we are all going to get these tactical narratives wrong. circling back to being strategic , and imagine back in september, we were communicating with clients about the importance of being strategic, but also that the fed is very unlikely to raise interest rates and immediately cause a crash, and

there are asymmetric opportunities to buy stocks. but over time, everyone is going to be wrong with those predictions and how you express them in your portfolios. let me give you a thought experiment. imagine that we had a crystal ball and it could perfectly predict future market events. back in september, the market is down 20%. everyone is bearish like they were last week, last month, all year. you knew that over the next six months or so that the fed was going to hike another 200 basis points and we are going to experience a banking crisis on par with 2008. would your thought beat to go out and buy stocks? maybe it should have been. you could get your expression entirely wrong. that is why we do risk mitigation. we focus on being explosive in crashes. sonali: i want to talk about the explosive nature of universa strategy.

there is some criticism here, he debate out in the market about whether this is the right way to think about returns. people think about what happened in covid and you told investors that the returns on insurance payouts was more than 3600%. why is that the right way to do things rather than normal returns based on assets? brandon: that's exactly what i mean by explosive returns in crashes. this is what we aim to do at universa. we are writing two whole books on this. what i think you're talking about is in -- is return on investment on capital. returns on invested capital are among the metrics we are required to report to regulators and clients, even if we cannot share them publicly. now, we can report returns on something else, like our one-month loss or long action

premium as a portion of the portfolio, rather than capital. those would certainly not be standard. we already do something, tail risk hedging. we want to make sure that when we are communicating, it is in a standard form they are able to use when they apply it to their portfolios. sonali: there's a lot of question about whether the hedge fund is even the right model right now. if you look at the bloomberg hedge fund index, for those of you who have the terminal, you look at hedge funds broadly up 2%, trailing the s&p 500. as a hedge fund even a good strategy in an environment like this? brandon: somewhat disorganized paper that hedge funds as a whole have not really provided very much value. but we don't need to pick up hedge funds. we can look at all risk mitigation, when you include into your portfolio, is intended to raise your wealth over time. if it doesn't, you are just

poorer. what is the point of having done that? we evaluate ourselves on the same metric. take 2008 out of our returns and look at the past five years. it is up 50% in five years. what have we done for portfolio? we have still been able to raise the wealth of clients while lowering the risk. that is the bar i think investors should be looking at and thinking about long-term. you will be making all of these little decisions. at some point, there will be a debt crisis, then an election, then some new fear. you have to summarize all the times you are wrong for the pay out when you are right. [crosstalking] lisa: i appreciate the time. brandon yarckin joining us. we will take a quick break. when we come back, shares of snap but -- snap-on.

who will speak to about that call in our stock of the hour. that's next. this is bloomberg. ♪ fabulous surroundings... but everyone's looking at their phones for financial insights from merrill. is he hailing a ride to the concert hall? no. he's making sure his portfolio and retirement plans work in harmony. they want to adopt a child and build a new home. so they're talking numbers with their merrill adviser. she's not researching her next role. she's learning how to handle market ups and downs without the drama. personalized advice so impressive your money never stops working for you with merrill. a bank of america company.

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lisa: this is bloomberg "markets." i am jon erlichman with matt miller. snap-on gaining ground. roth and km out with a bullish call. despite economic worries we are talking about, the auto repair market has been busy. that is because the average vehicle on the road in the u.s. stands at around 12.5 years old for each vehicle on the road on average right now. matt: and it gets older and older, because vehicles are better and better. they can last longer. if i work on a vehicle at my

house, i love to be able to work -- to reach for a snap-on tool. i don't have many, because they are expensive, but they have an incredible feeling of quality paired we are going to talk to an analyst about this right now. roth and km director and senior analyst scott joins us now. there really is a cult following around snap-on tools. they are so expensive and hard to get, at least for me. why do you like the company? one of the -- scott: we finally have a greater level of comfort in the durability model. particularly if you believe we are going into recessionary pressers later this year. they have proven through the greatest stress test of 2008 and 2009, coming out of the pandemic, that people will focus on repairing what they have with greater frequency.

with the exception of those two examples, this market has just been moving straight up to the right for decades. the other reason we like it is the way the company is positioned within it. they are definitely the top layer up there. a pretty much invented this model. part of the secret sauce is that their franchisees are visiting the repair shops on a weekly basis paired one of their jobs is collecting from some of the mechanics being loaned to and listen, put your ear to the ground, here are some of the issues the mechanics are having. what they do really well is getting back to snap-on's r&d department, or they will come out with a solution pretty quickly, whether it is for a hand tool or something in a hard to reach space, or something with diagnostics. they are the gold standard.

just everything that is going on right now, even though the stock has moved up a little bit this year, it still seems very reasonably valued. i see a lot of stuff that could happen this year. lisa: what about the debt -- jon: what about the debt picture for the company itself? scott: the debt is very, very manageable. one of the things we like about it is it could be the only name that i cover that all of their debt is fixed. that helps them on two fronts. one, it allows them, when they are loaning out paper to mechanics and the repair shops, to keep rates essentially flat of where they have been even before the pandemic and before interest rates started running up. it is something that is really helping keep a lid on inflation, at least with regards to their customer base.

certainly on the interest expense line, the interest statements, that's a good move. it's a very good position and we like it a lot. matt: one of the things that people say is, i don't know where to find them. can a regular person by snap-on tools? they are very expensive and often backordered. don't you think they need to or would benefit from changing their sales model a little bit so they were somehow within reach? scott: i don't believe so. i think part of the secret sauce and part of the exclusivity is keeping this to a direct to repair shop kind of level. they don't really want to get into the business of selling these products at, say, home depot or lowe's. or trying to compete with some other players. these products have some of the best quality.

again, they are finding solutions that nobody else can get that far up front. if you go to that model to the consumer, it changes the whole dynamic from exclusivity to a pricing standpoint. there is plenty of wood to chop, especially as cars are becoming more and more complex. even if it is not a diagnostic item, and very many cases, it could have some sort of technology to it. i think the way going about it right now is fine. they don't really need to go toward the usual customer. matt: stock has been absolutely on fire, going from 50 bucks to $250. scott stember on his snap-on upgrade. next, we will talk about the legacy of sam zell. this is bloomberg. ♪

jon: this is bloomberg markets. i am jon erlichman with matt miller. billionaire investor sam l, known for his best on distressed assets, has died at the age of 81 years old. he built a portfolio that included radio stations, drugstores, parking lots, and mattresses. carol massar interviewed him many times over the years. she is kind enough to join us. carol, there is the sam zell who introduced a lot of investors to rates. there is the dealmaker, there is the motorcycle riding sam zell, which i know matt miller can appreciate. but a personality on many levels. carol: very colorful. prior to the sale to blackstone, that was $39 billion, it was the biggest leveraged buyout at the time. but he was a relatively quiet individual. be hard to believe up to that

point. you think about sam zell and he is certainly synonymous when it comes to real estate, in particular. that deal, i think about it, in 2007, so great ahead of the great recession and financial meltdown, which was largely residential. nonetheless, he was in office. he was significant in terms of timing. that was one of his wins. you think about real estate so much for him, but he was very interested in media. he was interested in the tribune. that did not go so well. matt: that's what i think about. he hit it out of the park with his sale of real estate portfolio to blackstone, raising almost $40 billion. then, he bought tribune and had to sell off assets, including that cubs. it did not go well and they went bankrupt. carol: it was another big

leverage to deal. a lot of media properties, but there were a lot of lawsuits. 2019, there was the final settling of another legal battle. it was a real mistake. he even conceded in later years that maybe it was not such a great move on his part. it is interesting. i was thinking about, as we were getting ready for this, you and i did something back in 2009. i was down at the exchange in a real estate event. he was there and we did a recap of some of the things he talked about. two things stuck out to me. when he talked about real estate, he talked about the oversupply and how there would not be building for a while and there would ultimately be undersupplied, which is kind of where we are today. he also talked about the importance of protecting intellectual property on media properties, which i think it's something we still talk about a lot today. matt: really unexpected. carol: unfortunate.

and can i just say that he is one of the iconic individuals that we go to, to understand where we are. matt: definitely an icon. carol massar, thank you so much. sam zell passed away at 80 one years old. this is bloomberg. ♪

romaine: the relief rally continues, the s&p reports the first back to back pains in it -- back to back gains in a month. romaine bostick a bloomberg world headquarters kicking you off to the close. that is a look for the broader market in your, and rally that began on wednesday the u.s. cycled over to asia overnight, and rotated back into european equities on thursday. now