>> welcome to the bnn, bloomberg and bloomberg audiences. i'm amber kanwar. matt: and i matt miller. we have been up and down. the s&p had been at 4285 as the high. also, no movement in the 10 year yield. holding at 370.

the bloomberg dollar index at 1241. it is interesting to see crude moving further down, right now off $.35. $71.83 even after surprise additional cuts on sunday. amber, what are you looking at? amber: let's see if we can find something that is moving more. i am looking at get lab. it has ai. not only is it beating expectations but boosting its forecast. the market likes that. i'm tracking g3 apparel. this company sells calvin klein, tommy hilfiger, donna karan, and retail has not been a slamdunk. it is for g3. not only did they beat expectations, they also boosted the forecast. different story in crypto land. coinbase hit with a lawsuit. we knew it was coming but

obviously, investors taken aback by the 101 page complaint against coinbase. we are seeing cryptocurrencies fall in tandem. matt: very interesting news today. of course, the sec topping the list of the things we are focused on. it's crackdown against crypto continues with suits against coinbase today. here's what gary gensler says he wants to see. gary: if it is going to have success going forward, it has to come into compliance with basic public policy about disclosure, about avoiding conflicts, about segregating, properly segregating, customer funds. and guarding against fraud manipulation. matt: for more let's bring in tuongvy le. she is a former sec chief

counsel as well. kailey leinz is with us too. let me ask about the comments we just listened to. is it possible for crypto firms to operate? could they come into compliance and still exist as a crypto firm? tuong vy: the short answer is no. just to give some context, coinbase has been in talks with the sec for a long time to come up with a model of registration that would work for a crypto trading platform. they filed petitions for rulemaking, they engaged in countless internal discussions with staff, they came up with their own registration model to try to work with sec to come up with something both sides could agree to. because the existing securities laws, the existing registration and disclosure models simply do

not work for a crypto platform like coinbase. i can give you some examples of what i mean. matt: ok. kailey: just quickly, are these lawsuits winnable? how strong, realistically, is the case? tuong vy: i mean, all of these cases, i think, they are well investigated. if you are applying analysis, i think there are judges out there that would look at the howie analysis, apply to the facts, and say, if we are just plying this mechanically and not considering the unique aspects of blockchain technology and the unique digital assets, a court could find unregistered securities were being offered on these trading platforms.

i think the cases are winnable. i think it depends on the judge and the way the judge is looking at it. but i think if you are considering the way that digital assets differ in the way these crypto platforms differ from how things work in the traditional securities context, it is not the case that coinbase could register under the existing laws. it would not work. by virtue of the technology and the way the blockchain works. matt: i was going to ask, these rules -- you mentioned howie. if i am not incorrect, they come from 1946. we were just finishing world war ii. the internet would have been unimaginable to people back then. cell phones, i mean, "star trek" did not even exist. don't we need new laws to deal with the technology of today? tuong vy: absolutely.

you know, that is not always to say the securities laws -- which were written in a very flexible way -- cannot adapt to innovations in technology. i think they largely have. the internet did not exist but when trading started happening on the internet, for the most part, the securities laws were able to adapt. to that point, the sec engaged in rulemaking to accommodate those kinds of changes. something they have refused to do in the crypto context. just to give an example of why a crypto platform like coinbase cannot come in & he register under the existing securities laws. digital assets trade differently than traditional securities because of technology. you can trade crypto 24/7, 365 days a year. the new york stock exchange and

nasdaq have limited hours. the existing laws are incompatible with the digital assets can trade. for traditional securities, in order to trade through exchange, you have to do it through a registered broker. that is a requirement. with digital assets it is just not necessary, because you can conduct trade directly without the need for that intermediary because of how trades on blockchains work. kailey: it raises the question about whether these should be classified as digital commodities. that brings me to the hearing i was just at regarding market structure and how the cftc should be divvying up jurisdiction. i was speaking with one congressman, zach nunn, and he said gary gensler is trying to empire build. he is not going to wait to set these barriers. i wonder if these sec cases

being brought now are going to be something that they cannot actually win, because the actual law that congress sets will be changing. we know these cases can draw out. tuong vy: that's right. the ripple case was filed december 2020. these cases can drag on for quite some time. so, yeah, and the timing with respect to any sort of legislative action that congress is going to take. of course, it is unpredictable. but i think it is interesting that the sec knows congress is very actively working on legislation to create new regulatory frameworks. in some cases amending the existing securities laws to expand or change either the sec's authority, or in the case of the cftc, to give them authority that does not currently exist over crypto.

but congress is actively working to create a new framework that works for crypto. obviously, the sec knows that and continues to bring these under the security laws. matt: given the slough of legislation and the sec's current position, are you concerned that the u.s. industry may be set back versus others? are we losing a competitive edge here? tuong vy: absolutely. i think when it comes to technology -- and history has shown this -- when it comes to technological innovation, the first mover advantage is so critical. with crypto, i think the u.s. has had a personal advantage that it is now squandering because we have not come up with a workable regulatory framework for crypto companies to operate responsible and have a path to compliance in the u.s.

this is the opposite approach of what other jurisdictions around the world are doing. the eu is coming up with a comprehensive framework that just passed. that will be implement it next year. the u.k. is working to do the same. japan, south korea, hong kong, so many around the world are creating new frameworks that make sense for crypto instead of trying to shoehorn crypto into existing securities laws. they recognize crypto is different and demands different kinds of framework in order to not just allow innovation, but to better protect customers. if the regular policies do not fit the way technology works, that leaves customers and users and investors vulnerable. so, i would look abroad to see the approach these other places are taking. i think more and more crypto businesses are going to move abroad, because the u.s. is not

offering a working framework for innovation to happen. i think that is going to be something that is potentially really hard, if not impossible, to recover from. matt: i would love to get you back on the program, love to get you in the studio. hopefully, we can do that. bain capital's tuongvy le joining us. former sec chief counsel now at bain capital. kailey leinz will be headed back to capitol hill to harass lawmakers. bloomberg is launching a new podcast called "spell caster." it looks into san bankman-fried's incredible rise and fall in terms of celebrity, wealth, in terms of the alleged fraud. hannah miller is the spell

caster host and reported on the collapse for us. thank you for joining us on set. fantastic podcast. i started it yesterday. i have access to four episodes. i think i am special. tell us what you discovered in your reporting. hannah: this was such an exciting project to work on. i learned a lot. it has been incredible to dive into the origins of ftx and sam bankman-fried. he is a very interesting individual. we traced his childhood growing up on the campus of stanford to his activity with all truism. we really saw how that played into the founding of ftx. can see these themes -- what happened with ftx -- are still relevant today. there are parallels in the accusations.

still a developing story. amber: he has been called, at worst, a con man and at best, incompetent. as you are getting to the essence of who sbf is, are the listeners going to get a sense of where the truth lies? hannah: yes. it has been interesting talking to people who knew him in all parts of his life. we got a friend from college, an investor who passed on investing in alameda. it was interesting to see how people saw this, sort of, obsession with gameplay early on. there were these personas he would put on. i think that has been very clear in how he interacted with lawmakers going forward, how he was able to charm venture capitalists. this is someone who knew how to play a game, who knew how to cast a spell, hence the name of

the podcast. matt: i would wonder why he did not do a better job. why not keep records? why not organize things? you know, why not break the law? hannah: that is a very good question. i think a lot of this comes from the fact this was someone who always thought he was the smartest person in the room. this is someone who excelled in every aspect of his life. this was someone given huge amounts of responsibility early on, but also someone very young, very inexperienced. i do not think that is necessarily an excuse for what happened. there are still people who have questions about where their money is, whether they are going to recover their life savings. i was thinking about that the whole time reporting on the story. there are still victims out there with questions. matt: great work. cannot wait to hear the rest of your podcast. hannah is the host of "spellcaster" and you can check

it out anywhere you get your podcasts. i found mine by typing podcast into apple phone. if you subscribe to certain things, you get early access and maybe special bonuses. possibly a t-shirt. coming up, the ceo of abaxx technologies joins us to discuss its debut as the first company listed across two cboe exchanges. this is bloomberg. ♪

amber: this is "bloomberg markets." i'm amber kanwar with matt miller. time for stock of the hour. cboe is allowing companies to list on its exchanges in the

u.s. and globally for the first time, entering the market dominated by the new york stock exchange and nasdaq. it back technology, which is a commodity exchange. it is the first company trading on cboe. both sides, canada and u.s., we have josh crumb joining us now. first question, why choose this exchange? josh: yes. hi, amber. we see cboe as a challenger in the markets. we also see -- we already trade on cboe canada. but what they are rolling out is a global platform for investors that can have a synchronized training experience. matt: it makes sense why you would list there and it is exciting and historic.

what about your business. what are you focused on? josh: our long-term vision is to change the way commodities are priced and traded in the supply chain. matt: you are an exchange listed on an exchange. josh: exactly. that is where we share the similar dna as challengers of the existing model. our long-term vision is about pricing commodities so it is not a constant race to the bottom. that is obviously a very big vision on how we think they should trade in the future. but at the core of our business, the first stage of our business, is we are launching a new futures exchange and clearinghouse based in singapore to trade energy transition related commodities. amber: why do we need a new one? josh: yeah. it is to meet the commercial needs. for example, there is no real -- let's take the nickel market, for example. after the nickel market broke the other big exchange groups

have not listed a new nickel contract as a replacement. there is no alternative. we think some of the big commodity exchanges, while great businesses, i think have gotten comfortable and are not doing the work, the hard work, of developing physical benchmarks. liquefied natural gas, battery metals, environmental nuggets, new commodities that do not have an existing benchmark. amber: all right. fascinating stuff. thank you for bringing that to us. ceo of abaxx technologies. thank you for watching. this is bloomberg. ♪

♪ ♪ the biggest ideas inspire new ones. 30 years ago, state street created an etf that inspired the world to invest differently. it still does. what can you do with spy? ♪ ♪ amber: this is bloomberg markets. i'm amber kanwar with matt miller. exclusively from pimco's

headquarters to bloomberg television, take a listen. >> we do not necessarily think we get back to the levels pre-covid, but we think interest rates will flatline. we expect inflation to trend toward central-bank targets. it is likely to be more volatile going forward. the balance of risks will be more symmetric. no longer do we live in a world where there is constant disinflationary pressure and a desire from central banks to stimulate the economy to get back to target. we are constructive in the sense that we take banks seriously in terms of their desire to get inflation back toward target. we think they will get inflation toward target. but over the next five or 10 years we are going to be in a very different world than the world we were in paris covid -- pre-covid, where these risks

that lead to risk seeking behavior, is likely behind us. we will be in a more less certain world. a world that is good to create opportunity to take advantage of shifting opportunities across the globe. jonathan: where are they for you? dan: we are cautious. there is 500 basis points of stimulus that have occurred in record amounts of time. this is an economy where lags are longer. the household has been able to carve out debt at record low levels. they are feeling less of an impact from central bank policy. but trouble is ahead. there has been massive growth in certain segments of the market, private credit, all of which float to the funds rate and are feeling the brunt of tightening. over the next couple of quarters we expect to see more signs of an economic slowdown.

the good news is we have massive repricing in fixed income. mortgage-backed securities are trading at record wide spreads. the higher-quality, more resilient areas, we would be more reluctant -- and we are more cautious -- moving into the economically sensitive areas of the investment opportunity set. that means underweights to the weakest segments of the quarters market. matt: that was the cio of pimco talking with jon ferro. i thought it was interesting that he is more reluctant. you are starting to see caution creep across the industry, even private credit, which has been such a hot asset class the last year or two. amber: absolutely. we are waiting for these contrarians to emerge and it is not so definitive yet.

matt: for amber kanwar, i'm matt miller. this is bloomberg. ♪ (announcer) enough with the calorie counting, carb cutting, diet fatigue, and stress.

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romaine: high return day for low multiple stocks. live from bloomberg world headquarters in new york, romaine bostick kicking you off to the close on this tuesday with the story of the day being the day in the sun for small and mid-cap stocks. financials getting the bid today, so our industrials, leading the cyclical rally. cyclical stocks outlasting growth stocks 2-1. leaving momentum in the dust. regional bank stocks up over 6%. homebu