katie: welcome to "bloomerg etf iq". i'm katie greifeld. matt: i am matt miller. as the smoke horse down from canada, the bank of canada raising rates. let's get to the biggest stories . be more than $9 trillion global etf industry. an unprecedented height. u.s. debt dealers are now focused back on central banks. katie: after jp morgan success

in etf's, goldman prepared to launch funds quite similar to their rival bank. matt: now that it is the start of summer, people are planning vacations and we look at one etf ready for a getaway. katie: we have eric bell between us from bloomberg intelligence, here with us, looking at the flows. eric: last week, i gave good news that etf's finally beginning to wake up a little bit. there has been the foam of drought all year. equities of data but no flows. voo is good. hyg and the qqq have a nice hold which i will expand on in a minute. the inflows into btt were likely

things we should -- vgt with things we likely should not get excited to. spy is notable but still 8 billion over the past month. eem is emerging markets but look at how small the numbers are. let's look at the different types of markets. vanguard and schwab, this is the orange line. they are buying their etf slight clockwork. these are people using's five and liquid one. they come in here, they have been down and come back for three even though the spy outflow shows up here, i like this and will take it as a positive take away if they get positive, that is equities coming in. eric: thank you very much.

joining us now as valerie, director of global etf sales and strategy a day edc. capital markets coming down from canada with smoke. thank you so much. let's talk about what eric laid out there. what do you see in terms of ending the foam of drought -- f omo drought? >> it is different in canada because there is not a fomo drought. the correct weight is going into the fixed income trade on a relative basis. we are seeing similar trends in that it is 2-1 ratios which is a big change in something we have not seen ever. katie: some big trends in the u.s., obviously cash is been on fire and in very high demand. you see that in cash etf's and

money market funds. his cash as hot in canada? >> even more so. cash is king. these are rough numbers. 10 billion of inflows and to fix etf's in canada. about half of that is cash c.t.s. or--equivalent -- etf's or cash equivalent ones. these etf's take in cash in take the cash into a deposited count that is paying a lot higher yields than you and i would receive in our own accounts. matt: it is like a cd? >> they are and worth of 5% right now. on cash, it is easy to see why they have been a popular and have been giving flows after flows after flows. eric: i was there which was how i met you. it was high set etf's -- hisa

etf's. another thing that has taken money off the u.s. equity area is international equity etf's. international makes up something like 14% of the flows, taking 45% of the assets. they are punching above their weight this year. you have been seeing this in canada as well. what is your take? international, i always feel like it will be a short-lived rally. >> it is hard to say and is reading the tea leaves but what investors are saying and where they are putting their dollars is into international. there has been 4 billion lows into ets three into international funds. there ratios are way out of life and it is across-the-board so it is hard to discern team. it is emerging markets, developing market, country

specific. anything that is not worth america, canadians are buying. matt: for example, covered calls. >> the heart of the question is canadians love yield. along with ice hockey, it is yields. they look through their etf product list and they are chasing yields. cover cost strategies have been the big fit -- big beneficiary of that. we have seen chasing from a product issuance type. also, they have just been gaining big inflows because people are trying to chase that yields. i table shift because the ets outperformed in case -- it will shift because the etf's outperformed in a downward trend. katie: we were talking before the show that when you think about these very yieldy etf's,

they are underperforming the s&p 500 year-to-date. i am not sure about canadian but talked to wes. even still, you are seeing money continue to pour in even though the underperformance has established itself. >> i think we are right on the tipping point to when people will wake up to the underperformance. right now, they are happy for the yield and protection but while markets are moving higher, it will get attention and we will see potentially a rotation out of this. eric: i agree. that said, active is here to stay in the u.s. in canada, active has been caught on for a decade. you have been into active for a long time. my theory in the u.s. is they finally got. love cheap stuff here. active got cheap and now they buy it. is that because your role is to pick active and therefore you

get more flows? >> i think it is both. because of the long history, there is a lot of comfort there. it mainly stems from a regulatory issue which is that etf's in canada fall under the same guidelines entrance the rules. managers were onboard board and people like ourselves like market makers and participants have always been comfortable. they have been around for 10 years plus. they are here to stay. it is a credit market in canada, over 1300 etf's. we are seeing continued rollouts of effective strategies. there is a sentiment of, if you cannot beat them, join them. matt: a lot of times you the us. canada actually have the first ets before us. you had bitcoin etf's and we do we did. how is it going with bitcoin etf's and the we business -- the

marijuana business? >> we are proud to be at the forefront of these trades. cannabis, is just going with what is happening in the u.s., so if there is any legalization scuttled, they ripped and fall back down. on the crypto side, the flow has been sticky. we had a rush at the end of 2020, 2021. they stuck around. there are putting this as a small allocation to crypto and will stick around. >> great having you here in the united states of america. thank you so much. valerie grimba of rbc capital markets. coming up, goldman sachs is ready to they catch up with familiar fund names. this is etf iq on bloomberg.

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katie: welcome back. i'm katie greifeld. time for us to walk you through the trends and stories that caught my eye. start with cathie wood and coinbase the news has been coinbase's suit from the sdc. cathie wood brought coinbase across her funds. arkk is her biggest fund. these are some of her top holdings. we are going to continue to track that. the biggest junk-bond etf is

hyg. it saw its biggest weekly inflow last week since 2020. some of that money has come out last week but over 2 billion came in. let's turn to what i think is the most interesting story in etf's over the past week. some interesting filings from goldman from the u.s. equity premium income etf and the u.s. tech equity premium income df. they sound very familiar to some jp morgan products on the left-hand side. we talk about this every single show. apparently goldman has been to. matt: this is really interesting. valerie was just saying that if you cannot beat them, join them. let's bring in eric bell tunis -- balcones.

eric: the reason this caught my eye was late. jeffrey lost three years ago, the flow fund came in two years ago and goldman comes in this late. they came out strong. dss e is a multi factor product that really crushed it. it was up to $15 billion. you can see with goldman, the line went down and jp morgan is the white line. five years ago, something changed inside goldman sachs. i use the phrase they "lost their edge". you can tell compared to jp morgan that they took their foot off the gas. we spoke about this earlier in the show. the trait is over. this is a day late, dollar short filing. katie: you made the point that if you look year-to-date, it is only up 3%. it is underperforming the s&p

500 by a healthy margin. goldman is late on multiple levels. there are two -- wall street banks are good because they can subsidize being cheap. that is why goldman has a real opportunity. jeff goldman sachs has the same as well. it also shows the other route. if you are not buying the rally, you still say i still like debbie then -- jpm. there is a lot going into the flows going into jvm despite the flows. the distribution is huge and goldman has it. my guess is they see etf's as a short-term revenue killer. when you to use revenue overgrowth, you back off the df is max: -- the etf business.

matt: how much do you care if the price actually rises? eric: in arkk's case, they need the themes to rise. but if you have jp morgan, you have to get the right price. jp morgan cannot sell to others unless they are being fiduciary. otherwise it looks a conflict of interest. have to get money rain or shine because people will be interested in the value of it. price-performance is more important for something that is a shiny object. but goldman, jp morgan and more are not shiny objects. goldman sachs has not launched anything lately. look at the flows, assets and late filing and under, -- matt: are they asleep at the wheel? eric: i think they are under new management. katie: i think we need to get goldman on the show. still ahead, we are going to

drill down into morgan stanley's ts with who manages the funds next. this is etf iq on bloomberg. what do you see on the horizon? uncertainty? or opportunity. whatever you see, at pgim we can help you rise to the challenges of today, when active investing and disciplined risk management are needed most. drawing on deep expertise across the world's public and private markets

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because investing isn't one size fits all. ♪ allspring. purposefully divergent. matt: this is "bloomerg etf iq". i am matt miller alongside katie greifeld. eric: eric balchunas is back with us for today's etf drove down. what do you have? eric: we are going to look at dmbs, a mortgage etf. double line is famous. it is actively managed. it is 49 basis points which may be slightly above average for this space but above mutual funds. it is pretty good for the

market. double line is pretty big. it is interesting they have not launched a mortgage etf before this point because there are so known for this area. the mortgage bonds is trying to identify value in the markets and will be eight from the benchmark. if we look what -- at what i consider cheap data to the mortgage-backed area, it will be mbb which charges four basis rise. as an active manager, you have to be the chief data version which is liquid. it so far is, up 24 basis points over mbb which is a good start. i could see the new etf getting an audience outside of the doubleline fence. katie: joining us to talk about this is ken shinoda. great to have you. the mortgage market is at a pretty interesting moment so it is great to talk to active managers like yourself. when you are thinking about her

portfolio, where are you seeing the opportunity? ken: broadly, mortgages are the most interesting and cheap as they have been in over a decade. the spread on current coupon etf's have around 7% coupons and are trading at the 100th percentile over the last 10 years. broadly, mbs is attractive -- d

valley bank balance sheet. those assets are actually trading very expensive relative to other parts of the market. when you index, you end up getting ownership or down l.a. of the loaves upon bonds. they extract relative value. you have to go out the index and can look to higher coupon mortgages i just talked about. you can go into the collateral mortgage obligation market were wall street packages of mortgages and slices and dices them up into peas does. we think they will cheapen will be see more supply from the fdic last go into the non-agency market because you take the credit risk of borrowers and pickup yield over the agency mortgage are in the funds used bond. there are different ways to extract value and today it is important to do so. eric: i wonder how where you are about the risk. he saw people paying as much as they could for cars over the past couple years and the

default rate is concerning. right now, the same is true for homebuyers especially in the nonagency market. are you worried about defaults? >> 85% of the portfolio is in agencies, no default risk. they buy out these loans at par if they altered on the credit side, what you have seen in the u.s. over the past decade is the underwriting quality of new mortgages made and new nongovernment guaranteed be has remained really high. people have to put money down. we also have a ton of equity home built up for people in homes they bought over the last years. you have seen people pay down mortgages and the borrower negotiation. the probability of default is low but this could go up with an recession as unemployment goes higher but we have seen pandemic

programs like mortgage forbearance work to help borrowers stay in their homes, the sick couple payments and get back on their feet and start paying again. i think defaults will be low going into the session everyone is waiting for. eric: the average area bonds have about 27%. would you recommend unbundling that in putting this in double line runs or adding onto this with a fund like this? >> i think our etf is an interesting solution for someone who wants to get the mbs -- dmbs exposure. you want to have exposure but by then what is t. you want to have extra yield. if you want extra management, this is the way to go. katie: great to catch up with the. that is ken shinoda of doubleline. matt: we should get him back and

for longer. katie: before we go on this show, here is a special look at another etf as we get ready for summer. >> summer is unofficially here which means many people are packing their suitcases and headed for vacation. the etf goes away and is though to track tech companies tied to the global travel and tech tourism industry. you will find among its 40 holdings names like uber, booking, expedia and airbnb. uber bank has about 120 million dollars in assets and time is not on site around february 2020 when the candidate was taking over the world and shutting down the travel and read. the performance has suffered over a result, negatively trailing the s&p 500 over the time. but it also has the highest expense ratio around 75 basis points.

trouble looks to take off in the years ahead. it is a green light when bloomberg intelligence traffic light system with one warning for its alternative waiting. matt: we just got headline. if you are in the new york metropolitan area, you have seen a huge cloud of smoke heading -- taking over. the faa has now established a grounds top end -- ground stop at laguardia airport for -- until 2:00 p.m. this is interesting because at one point, this etf was not going crazy. eric: this was the worst time lunch i have ever seen. it began two weeks or covid and i thought this was way to go away by taking back. now it is getting its day again. away. katie: we are crossing it for a little but maybe not today. matt: that does it for "bloomerg

etf iq". this is bloomberg. ♪ ♪ ♪ the biggest ideas inspire new ones. 30 years ago, state street created an etf that inspired the world to invest differently. it still does. what can you do with spy? ♪ ♪ you don't have to worry about things like changing tax rates or filing returns. avalarahhh ahhh aany questions?dy -yeah, i got one.

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>> welcome to bloomberg markets. i am jon erlichman. matt: i am matt miller. we have been hit in new york by a giant cloud of smoke from canada and a surprise rate decision from the boc. the s&p 500 now down about a third at 4268 so still close to the highs we saw around august.

i think that was 4290. right now 3.79 on the 10-year yield, coming up 13 basis points as investors sell those bonds. bloomberg u.s. dollar index of around one point at 1241 and oil gaining. it is really about the bank of canada's decision today that is moving markets in york. what do you think about it? jon: with the bank of canada decision today, there is a lot of people wondering what the fed is going to be doing as we get ready for its rate decision. this is a central bank that many others around the world were watching earlier this year because the bank of canada had gone into's mode for a couple meetings. the fact the economy has been resilient is getting attention right now. obviously, the australian

central bank as well with a hawkish tone. it is setting the table for a new conversation around the so-called pause that could be coming from the fed. we'll be watching very closely. matt: it is interesting. before this rate decision, i was talking with our producer who said the canadians are always going first in these things. we thought they were going to pause. it kind of tips off what the fed will do or the market gets that feeling. now that we have a hike, we are pricing in a hike for the fed as well in july. the chances have risen even at the june meeting. all of our focus right now in the bank of canada. as you can see, it has brought our rates market. jon: you mentioned the equity market reaction, tech stocks down in new york. we have seen them lower in the canadian market as well today.

there are some dynamics that each country defers. canada is in the middle of an immigration research -- immigration surge. we have seen this in the canadian employment picture to get more jobs data later this week. what of the biggest questions is the long-term ramifications of these rate hikes. one of the realities in canada is canadians are deeply indebted. part of this is because they have put a lot of money into the housing markets in recent years, over the last decade. we spoke to a former bank of canada advisor earlier who said at the end of the day, in fact the bank of canada has to try to cool the economy with higher interest rates to continue to fight against inflation is a five-story for today. he does not expect this to end well given how much debt has been taken to the housing market as well.

we want to let our audience know as well that obviously, we are hearing from many business leaders today as part of continuing bloomberg coverage. we are going to toss over to jason kelly in conversation with the chairman and ceo of avenue capital management. >> you had comments about this a couple weeks ago that went viral on bloomberg next to my colleague sonali basak. i want to ask about the big sports story of the day. liv golf. live and pda coming together -- liv and pga coming together. i don't know if you are a golfer but what do you make of this? >> it is fascinating. it is the last thing any of us thought would happen. what i would love to understand are the details of the deal. why did the pga do this?

it is clear why liv did it. what are the financial -- what is the deal? a week ago, day ago, a year ago, that was the devil and today, they are your partner. jason: do you think it is good for golf? you are someone who constantly is assessing what is a good investment when it comes to sports. you're going to talk a lot about this over the next 20 minutes or so. >> i can make you any argument both ways. i can make you an argument that it is better to have covered this should and i can make an argument that it is better to have a monopoly. when you have more competition, there is more costs involved. when you have a monopoly, you are controlling the process so that tends to be better. any business is better if you

have a monopoly. for fans, it is better when you have competition. jason: i want to pan out and get to the fundamentals of what you see in the world of sports. you have been a very successful investor already in this asset class. it does seem to be an asset class. how did you identify this for a something you wanted to pursue as an investment? >> what sports really is issue are buying a media company and buying it pretty cheap. it is the only thing today in the world that you cannot record. all of us will want to watch something, you record it. or you will stream it. with sports, you can't. you cannot record the super bowl. you cannot record today's nba finals. you can, but you are not

watching it three weeks later. that mindset is fabulous. what you want to be able to do today in sports is figure out -- pickle ball, if you think about it, when i invested, i bought the franchise for $100,000. today, they are worth $5 million or $10 million so that is a great return on investment. if pickle ball gets media rights and people put it on tv and you are watching it, the value of the franchise will go up. i will try to prove my point. everybody here -- who watches the olympics? raise your hand. the vast majority of people. if you ever watched curling on the olympics, raise your hand. as a media executive told me, if you watch curling, you will watch any and. [laughter]

when you are watching, you are watching somebody throw a ball on ice. imagine if i explained it and said here is my idea of a great sport. [laughter] i am going to have a guy take a ball and roll it on the ice. there is a little circle. he will try to get it in there. you will say, that seems tough. then i will have another guy who will have a rate that will rake the ice to make it go faster. you are like, why would he do that? i am like, that is the idea. he would go, next. but that is on tv and why? because people love the best in the world competing. you are not watching it because you love curling. you are watching because you like what you think are the best people in the world to compete. that is why pickle ball can take

off. that is why darts or whatever the sport is. if you are able to find the right sport, then what you really have is media rights because more people will watch that. as more people watch this, the value of your franchise goes up. if pickle ball signed a deal where now you are watching it on tv and the value of the franchise will just keep moving up because you are going to get paid more and more for people to air that. that is what you are buying when you are buying a sports team. jason: when you assess something , building on what you are saying, then you have to make a bet on why someone would watch x versus y. how do you do that? >> believe it or not, it is not that hard. you talk to a lot of people and find out, do you like pickle ball?

you start where it is taking a hold. it usually started down south because you could play it outdoors. the more people you talk to, when you find it is a wide array of people, you know there is a really high likelihood. the next big opportunity is in women's sports. why? because more and more people, if you see the last women's tournament, have more people watching that. nca final, the tickets went from more than the men's final. he did not know that, did you? the haters would say that is because there is only 20,000 seat than the women's which as the men had 60,000. but at the end of the day, people were paying more. when i look at that, i see -- here is another question. you guys, just prove all my

points hopefully since i don't know the answers and i hope you will do it the way i asked. right now, i think it is like 90 or 95% of all sports on tv when you are watching is about male sports. football or basketball. you think over the next five years the number goes up or down? it is going to go down and should go down. you will have more women's sports and different things. this means you will have more media rights for women's sports. if you have more women's rights -- media rights, than the value of the sports will go up. i think today you can get involved in women's soccer and basketball and all these different sports. if you look at kids, they want to see other women play. there is this tremendous amount of demand and it will sooner or later take over from the media rights.

jason: you have seen this. the nwsl just went for 53 million dollars for the bay area franchise. that's an institutional investor. >> i think that is what you are going to find. women's soccer should go from $50 million to 100 -- $500 million in the next 10 years. jason: are you looking actively into women's sports? >> yes. we are going to raise the women's fund. until then, i will partner with somebody who everyone will know. we are hopefully during the talks and it will get done soon. until then, we will do this personally or through our sports fund. jason: when you thought about this fund, you obviously bring interesting experiences to the table. most notably, your ownership which you just exited of the

buccaneers. let's talk about the decision to buy into cell. start with buying. what was the thought process? >> when we bought the team -- david stern said to me today, you have just on the second hardest thing you will ever do. i said ok. i thought the hardest thing was buying the team. he said no. second hardest. i said what is the hardest, he said selling. you start laughing. matt: fascinating discussion there. if you have a bloomberg terminal type liv go. warner bros. stock is climbing -- cnn stock -- climbing after cnn fired the ceo.

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matt: looking back. we are looking at more closures. we told you there was a ground stop at laguardia. the faa stopping flights until 2:00 p.m. now we have a ground stop at new york airport and the laguardia ground stop has extended. we have a cloud -- a cloud is too small a word. we have a massive blanket of smoke covering the east coast. how often do we have wildfires on the canadian east coast? jon: you have wildfires every season but given the amount of activity we have seen, this is unprecedented to have this much activity so soon. we have this much activity in western canada and now to your point in québec and parts of

ontario. the air quality in new york is a deep concern to all the airlines and carriers of the are continuing to see questionable air quality in big cities like toronto and the nation's capital like ottawa. -- the nation's capital ottawa. matt: we are going to talk about our stock of the hour. we are going to focus on warner bros. discovery. jon: we have seen the stock on the move today. warner bros. discovery in the headlines after cnn announcing its ceo has stepped down as head of the cable news channel after a rocky stent that lasted just over a year. we are looking at a higher price for warner bros. discovery but a lot of questions going forward. matt: let's bring in gerry smith, bloomberg news reporter to talk about what happened. there has been tumult at cnn

from the cancellation of what was cnn plus. they invested millions into this and hired staff for it. to the firing of don levin. he was taken off air due to comments and then brought back and let go. gerry: he had a controversial trump town hall if you weeks ago. matt: was that the straw that broke the camels back? gerry: there was also a profile last week that confirmed the concerns staffers had about him. he came after jeff zucker resigned. he tried to make changes and tried to make the network anchors less opinionated. they were losing the breaking news banner less frequently. big picture, these are real challenges for anybody running cnn right now. ever since donald trump left

office, we have seen tv and news ratings declined dramatically. bigger picture, the cable tv news business in general was shrinking. if you look at the number of subscribers for tatian -- for a station like cnn, the numbers were declining. chris made some missteps but this is a challenge for anybody who wants to run a cable tv news business. jon: as you work the phones and figure out who will step into the room next, what are they going to be looking for? gerry: good question. they said they will make a wide and broad search for a replacement. you would think he would go for a more traditional tv news executive. chris licked had a -- licht had a untraditional background. david zest law will be under pressure to find a more diverse

candidate. if you look at the industry, msnbc and abc news have recently appointed black women to as president of those networks. there is real urgency to have more racial diversity at the top of these tv and news divisions. matt: we were talking during the break and he pointed out that licht was trying to bring cnn back to the center. have they been successful? do they need to do that or is it better to hang on the left where they were previously or centerleft? there are more ratings in that kind of drama. gerry: there is no question that we are in a very polarized landscape. chris licht thought there was a lane for cnn the more down the middle. he thought the anchors were more opinionated and pushed back strongly during the trump era.

it is unclear whether that is something people want in this day and age and in this polarized landscape whether this will draw viewers. matt: thank you very much. i know you are very busy today. coming up, we are going to hear from weinstein on the hearing credit crunch. we continue to look at the conference. this is bloomberg. ♪

conventional thinking delivers conventional results. at allspring, we break away with purpose. harnessing data-driven insights and boundless curiosity. we dissect the market from every angle. helping to build portfolios that redefine what's possible. ♪ because investing isn't one size fits all.

♪ allspring. purposefully divergent. jon: right now, at bloomberg invest in new york, lisa abramowicz is sitting down with boaz weinstein. let's listen in. >> the market is constantly wrong. individuals are wrong. team transitory was said with confidence and then wrong. we have to accept there is a pick 5 and fixed point prediction of this will happen or this will not happen or there will not be a recession or there

will be a hard landing -- thinking about test to figure out four moves ahead is not the right game. it is more apt to think about poker where you have an appointment -- an opponent and they bed in you raise are you benton they raise -- they bet and you riase or you bet and they raise. there are a life chances and different outcomes. instead of saying there will be a recession or there will not, i howl at the tv screen when i hear that, there is a varying outlook. you go with 40% chance of recession or goldman just shifted to 25%. you can have a 40% chance of a recession happening and still make the investment because it is priced at 5%. the way i look at credit right

now is there is almost no chance of a real pickup in default. through that range of outcomes, it informs our investment review with -- which whether you look at the vix or credit spreads, it is not ready for that uncertainty. lisa: full disclosure, you were from a scottish poker house -- banned from a scottish poker house for counting cards? [laughter] >> a greek casino on baker street of london gave me a letter that lisa saw when i was late to our meeting that said i am no longer allowed to enter 10 baker street, i think. or maybe that is sherlock holmes. either way, i am not allowed to enter. that is a different game where you have every piece of enter -- information. it is no uncertainty. lisa a: what has dovetailed that into how to get ahead when you

do have this fog and are trying to come up with what the right parameters are guy: how do you know? what is mispriced? what do you look at to make convictions? >> i have always gravitated to allow the trust strategies. by you accidentally mentioning blackjack, it reminded me that ed work from beat the -- ed thorpe from beat the dealer in the 1980's did a arbitrage called closed down. warren buffett in 1950 before he took graham's class sent me a report that the majority of warren buffett's holdings and he was about to enter that class were discounted closed in funds. closed in arbitrage are the things i am most interested in today because it is tangible

that you can collapse yourself. you do not have to hope elon musk buys twitter in merger arbitrage. you don't have to hope the company behaves a certain way. closed in arbitrage, you can control your destiny. i can tell you why i'm excited. lisa a: it is basically an ipo fund and then nucera cells in take the fund and invest them wherever you want and they should change as the ipo or higher. why are you seeing any opportunity in the sphere yet -- this theory? >> we typically know more about open ended funds so mutual funds or etf's. if you want your money back, you will get it. on a mutual fund, they will sell you a little of the portfolio and give you back your tether. in a closed end fund, and are

770 on the new york stock exchange and linen stock exchange, you have to sell it to someone else. that might be 80% premium for everything in between. closed end funds can sit at huge discounts for a very long time. as we talk today, about three quarters of the closed end market is trading just fine. small discount or no discount or premium by a quarter are trading at gaping discounts. i look at this as if i am buying a dollar for $.80. unlike most investors to think about what is nvidia worth or what is the economy going to do, we just have to think about can be costly $.80 to go back to 100? the board is supposed to be operating to the benefit of shareholders and they have a magic button. you can press a button to choate -- turn their closed end fund

into an open fund. they could even liquidate and make the discount go away. the discount today is $60 billion. lisa a: you are burying the lead. you have declared war on black rock. what are you trying to do here? [laughter] >> i would not call it war. have been investing for a decade in this space. structural discounts that are at digit discounts, 15 and 20% discount, even as benign as california many bonds in the case of muc. california closed end funds and in 2020 when we have a midi skirmish with them on new york many funds they merge them into their new york muni funds. they own it and they are eating their own cooking. the reason that there is a battle is because at the upper level of management which is the