>> this is "bloomberg technology" with caroline hyde and ed ludlow. ♪ caroline: i'm caroline hyde at world headquarters in new york, ed ludlow is on assignment in sun valley. this is bloomberg technology. we will have the latest on a vision. shot on winning over the u.k. on acquisition. threads could add $8 billion per revenue --per year in revenue for the next years.

and partnering with microsoft word a multibillion-dollar partnership, to incorporate generative ai into its business. we sit down with the kpmg ceo. melissa checked the markets with abigail doolittle. abigail: we do have the s&p, nasdaq and other indexes higher but we are off the highs. 1% on the cooler than expected inflation report. yields lower, helping socks in terms of a ration perspective. look less expensive, especially true for big tech such as nvidia and microsoft. big tech names that have been under pressure earlier this week on the upcoming special nasdaq 100 rebalancing are getting a did. showing on the commute kitchen services sector on the year, the second-best sector on the year up about 37% and a couple of the names helping out today. meta, threads, the competition

to twitter is getting a boost. some analysts think it could be a significant revenue booster for meta. alphabet trading higher on the day. we will see some big tech names flying. microsoft, alphabet getting a bid off of the lower yields. we will pray for big tech overall. while the s&p 500 and the nasdaq 100 may be authorized, big tech names are hanging on to gains. caroline: and let's talk about those key names. the u.k., the antitrust watchdog has said that a new merger investigation into microsoft's 69 billion activision deal would be needed. to restructure the deal to reverse the u.k. veto. let's bring in our reporter who has been all across the competition. is it good to go back to square run -- square one? >> in this case it is. u.k. vetoed microsoft and

activision before, blocking the deal. but a u.s. court said the deal can move forward and the u.k. agreed to give it a second look, which is pretty unheard-of. but this microsoft and activision need to restructure so they are not looking at exactly the same thing. microsoft and activision are going to make an offer to the u.k. and restart negotiations over whether they might approve the deal. caroline: people have said the ftc and regulators have a plan because they have forced changes to the ways in which competitors access to gains for microsoft. what other ways can they alleviate anxiety around a lack of competition? leah: this was one thing the judge in the u.s. made a point of. the regulators that already won are getting microsoft offer tenure deals rivals. those deals with nintendo, the

pc gaming company, and to some people who do streaming games. the thing about the u.k. as they hate behavioral remedies, when a company is offering to do something like a 10 year contract. they want something structural. want microsoft or activision to offer 2000 and off. microsoft and activision are in the position of trying to decide what it is they might be willing to cleave off from the main deal in order to placate u.k. regulators. caroline: does this feel once again like big tech is waiting in terms of getting the deals through? leah: a good question. the ftc is expected to appeal as soon as this afternoon. it is not technically over in the u.s..

but antitrust laws are not able to take on the tech stuff. have the ftc losing earlier this year and the meta-case, although the difference with the u.k. is they have a little bit of a better law that is harder to appeal. you have them blocking meta-giphy, so there blocking that even though the cna had opposed the deal alone. caroline: interesting, thank you. we're going to get into meta-, we just finished that conversation and we have been all over threads. where than 100 million people signing up. it is sort of becoming a twitter alternative, and out on. and threads could reach closer to 200 million daily active users and generate about $8

billion in annual revenue. joining us is an analyst, mark, evercore isi managing director. it is no longer the number one top pick because of the rampant rapid rise in the shareprice we have seen on the back of this year. but threads, $8 billion sounds like a lot but it is not compared to the annual revenue in total. mark: all that i agree with. i like the weight you set it up. could they give you a billion dollars in revenue? the easiest part of that math is revenue they could get per user. twitter has a document in history, they were generating about $20 in ad revenue per user. facebook also has a document in history. they have been able to generate levels two or three times that of twitter. and i don't think it is because they spam ads all over the user interface, it is much better at targeting and matching advertisers and users.

they are able to find relevant audiences for advertisers. you've got almost 10 million advertisers -- a lot of it is small businesses. 100 million grand is outstanding. caroline: when do you think the switch will happen? mark zuckerberg and others have said we are not going to put this out there until we have a line of sight on users. do think that is what they're waiting for? >> i would take them on their word. the numbers we are talking about, even $8 billion sounds like a big number but it is only a mid-single digit percent impact for them. it is not like they need the ad revenue. the genius strategy would be show no ads, bring more users onto threads and the threads experience has got to improve dramatically.

i assume it will be easier for us to use it for the great things we have used twitter for in the past. when the uber cfo news came out that he may be resigning, if you'd gone to twitter, he would have found plenty of relevant news articles. you would not have seen anything. a real-time news outlet that is magical about twitter. it needs to be built at threads. with the set up for meta, i think twitter as an asset has been underinvested in for a couple of years, not just since elon musk took over the company but for a couple of years on the advertiser end user side. he created the opportunity for threads that can bring in new users from the existing database, existing user base of 1.5 billion users. caroline: the race is on and it feels as though twitter has been making changes in terms of brand safety. at the same time, they have a window before meta-turns on the advertising switch. how much -- twitch--twitter is

so embedded in our lifestyle. can fred keep it going? -- threads keep it going? mark: we should assume that twitter will be the leading real-time news, public counselor from a communications platform for the next five to 10 years. there will probably maintain that. but there is an opening created. threads, if they can come up with a better product, could they make one that is better? have the potential. they could bring in more users. think about the challenges twitter has had. the onboarding challenge is real. what do i get it out -- get out of twitter? threads has made it easy for people to come in, find

followers and people to follow, friends, people that they know and they come in in a way that need -- seems more user-friendly and is less caustic as an environment. but so needs to be addressed for twitter. a long-standing battle. some of that uncivil commentary getting off the site. it is all potential, but these 100 million users in less than a week, we've never seen that. caroline: here we have a conversation about competition being added. for many it is about competition being taken away. meta-in a closed room tomorrow in the eu, trying to indicate the marketplace in particular and how they have not reduced competition. how much is regulation a headwind to big tech names now? mac -- mark: if i supply, there is monopoly power relation, privacy and social health sort

of regulation. when it comes to meta-, there is no monopoly, regulatory risk. if there was power i facebook you would never have to talk. -- tiktok. there's nothing stopping people from gritting a new social media outlet in driving service there. the other issues are serious, privacy, but facebook has come around and has reasonably addressed that. we had a point where we over dramatized the impact of social media on social health. plenty of parts of social media have positive impacts. now we think about those risks. mom standing, it comes with the territory.

i've invited everybody to make a comment and not all those will be good. caroline: mark mahaney, evercore isi analyst. the uber perspective, your topic interesting. thank you so much. coming up, the big deal, kpmg and microsoft entering a multibillion-dollar ai and cloud services agreement. we discussed next with the ceo. and look at shopify. let's go to the nitty-gritty, the fascinating story of this company is putting a price tag on time. a calculator that estimates the cost of any meeting of three or more people. the company is trying to push you to be more productive and take away with the project to be routed 22,000 hours of meetings by putting a price tag on it. this is bloomberg. ♪

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that always puts you first. (we did it) start today at godaddy.com caroline: kpmg has announced a multibillion-dollar commitment into the microsoft cloud at ai services. over the next five years, it is expected to bring in more than $12 billion. joining us to discuss the partnership is paul knopp, ceo. i assume this is a profit -- productivity boost. paul: you think about the philosophy and the speed of innovation. generative ai, many of us were not even talking about nine months ago and now it is all anybody to talk about. it is amazing the innovation.

to codevelop solutions with microsoft for our businesses, advisory, we can bring to market, some of those solutions are already under development and summary nascent stages. we are excited about the power of the partnership that we can bring to market in the future, working with microsoft. we will spend or invest $2 million over the next five years on ai and cloud and we expect to generate about $12 billion of additional revenue over the next several years through cybersecurity, cloud migration and new applications that use generative ai. caroline: with your own workforce having access to the 365 copilot and the openai service, will you have a competitive edge? will others follow your lead and do deals with microsoft? paul: no doubt. this is not exclusive and we are going to invest in generative ai across the board. we are looking for opportunities. but we think our long-standing

relationship with microsoft, which dates back to 2000, in our history of working with them as a partner, even going to market with them, with our clients as joint clients, we have an edge. we have that long, strong history of development. we are going to ideate the power of their technology, our knowledge, experience, advisory tax, auditing. it is a great combination for ensuring we can solve our clients most complex problems and help our communities and society be better. caroline: how are you selling this to your workforce? a lot of anxieties out there say ai is going to take our jobs. >> if i look at the 40 years i've been at kpmg and think of the history of technology, i have not seen a disruption. this is the greatest in many decades. i have not seen one yet that has caused a loss of workforce on a gross or net basis.

i believe workforces will grow with generative ai. we will need more people to interpret results and codevelop solutions. no -- we will need more data scientists and cyber assessments of the information the ai applications produce. as i think about that history of technology and what has done to workforce, it has generated economic activity that should allow us to grow our workforces in the future. and also put some of those routine tasks people don't enjoy and upscale people to do more interesting and creative things. caroline: you have been out with the clients and they agree this will add to a our employees and productivity. paul: that's right. we concluded a survey where 80% of executives said this would be a disruption. 75% said it would be the top

emerging technology for 18 months. and there is agreement that it was going to add headcount over time. we feel confident it will reduce stress because some of these mundane cap -- tasks will no longer have to be done by people and they can provide more value and advice, do more creative things in the work environment. caroline: here's to more exciting work. i'm interested, the weight you will be using generative ai and cyber. the worries, there has been an adoption by companies to use openai with microsoft. but they don't want their own workforce using it as they are worried about their data ending up in the data troves in chatgpt. how have you dealt with the privacy angle? paul: when we use a chatgpt version, we use it in our own secure environment, not the open-source application. which provides protection. we value the inner prize

protection and security microsoft brings to us. we want to use ai response lee, ethically added a secure environment through we are going to ensure those companies have the same kind of security governance and architecture around their solutions. that will be a concern. along with concerns around. akers --data accuracy. caroline: a big disruption. thank you for coming on. we thank him. speaking of taxes, and aquatic lawmakers led by elizabeth warren have called on federal officials to investigate whether tax companies focus on the consumer like h&r block and tech giants have a role in sharing information taxpayers entered. they might have violent a taxpayer rights and privacy laws, but is there liability

according to the senators? tune in at five clock p.m. because we have an interview with senator warren. this is bloomberg. ♪

caroline: in talks with nvidia to join investors to anchor the offering equate to the financial times. evaluation of 35 to $40 billion. one must will hold an event all caps on spaces focused on artificial intelligence. he has invited two prominent house lawmakers. democrat and public and state leaders will speak with musk

tonight at 7:00 p.m. today's big take, how ai can make politics more dangerous. and ai with the potential to supercharge dissemination of misinformation among other things. the highs and lows of ai, bloomberg's emily, a great piece. how are we already seeing ai the coming involved in campaigns? emily: we are. we are seeing it from a local, state level and at the federal and international level. there've been instances of convincing deepfakes, pictures and videos that are not real but look very real circulating in campaigns. caroline: we're lso going -- also going to supercharge

workers. emily: the piece published today, laura davidson and i talked about congressional staffers, campaign staffers, lobbyists and politicians. the people who make up washington. we ask how they are using ai and it is already being used in a widespread way. lobbyists are using it to create the first drafts of campaigns. rational staffers are using it to get the first draft on the paged of speeches. generative ai is not sophisticated enough to write the bills but we are not far off. caroline: there are positives, but washington is eyeing ai and regulation seriously. can they tackle its own influence within their sphere of political campaigns? emily: senate majority leader chuck schumer just today said

this will be one of the most difficult challenges congress has ever faced, trying to regulate this complicated technology. there in the talking phase, having briefings to get lawmakers up to speed with what ai is and how it is being used by a federal agency, how it is being deployed by the tech sector. we are still early on. but they don't want to repeat the mistakes they made with social media, where they were asleep at the wheel, social media group and now it is pretty much an unrelated space. caroline: a great take, go read it. thank you. coming up, talking aiming. more on the microsoft activision deal and what it means for sony next. this is bloomberg technology. ♪

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caroline: welcome back to "bloomberg technology". i'm caroline hyde in new york. we are feeling buoyant because of the macro picture, inflation coming in at a slower pace, back to 3%. somewhat at the bed target but it has come down to get me. the nasdaq higher, .8%. the two year yield a screeching, starting to factor out further rate hikes passed in date. -- past that july date. we are off by about one third, it's about the 30,000 level per bitcoin. -- for bitcoin dollar.

activision blizzard, we got news that the u.s. court had not stalled on the deal to be purchased by microsoft, giving away a little profit taken yesterday. microsoft a big contributor to the nasdaq. palo alto networks interesting, some cybersecurity offerings. people are worried about how that will affect networks. up by more than 1.7%. a group up by 12%. the amount of deliveries in the previous order, the second quarter, did not live up to expectations. i want to talk a little about microsoft and activision blizzard. we will start with the way gamers are being affected. who are playing the games? hispanic and black americans are playing video games more than other ethnic groups according to a study. it changes the stereotype that largely it is white americans. joining us on the deal more

broadly, we are so pleased to have you in the studio. debunk some myths. who are playing games, who is worried and anxious about how they get access to call of duty? >> it is true, the stereotype is that most gamers are white men. however, white americans are not the most likely people to be playing games in the u.s.. a new study from the entertainment software association showed that americans who are latino, lack, asian american are significantly more likely than white americans to be playing games like call of duty. caroline: we know that more women are playing, mobile or console. is that being reflected in the games, is there more diversity in the characters? cecelia: about half of gamers are women. and gaming companies are realizing that it is productive to their bottom line to make

games that appeal to a wider audience than traditional. we are seeing more protagonists in tripoli games, his blockbuster games, who are women and nonwhite. it is been celebrate and widely across the gaming industry and brought a lot of gamers into the bowl. caroline: let's talk about who's console you might be playing. as we go to the twists and turns of the activision deal, it seems that sony's stranglehold on consoles has been why microsoft is allowed to make this deal. cecelia: it is interesting. microsoft has argued it has the third place, sony playstation, nintendo switch and then xbox which is microsoft. they have pc gaming offerings, the xbox app on pc and cloud gaming allows people to play mike is off games across mobile devices, tablets, smart tv is.

at the same time, what the ftc determined yesterday is that actually when it comes to call of duty, microsoft is not really incentivized to block off the game from competitors sony. microsoft in a large way relies on sony consumers, playstation gamers, to play call of duty with people on xbox. caroline: so clearly in their interest. thank you for bringing it down, cecelia with all that great reporting. let's stick on the deal and whether or not microsoft is going to be able to get its hands on activision. britain's antitrust watchdog said that a new investigation into the $69 billion deal may be needed to reverse a previous veto. joining us for more is public knowledge policy director and competition charlotte. thank you for joining us. have a history of working with the ftc and you understand concerns around competition. when you saw the judge in the u.s. and san francisco had given

the clear for now, what did you think? charlotte: it is a disappointing result for consumers. once the ftc brought this case, we were hoping it would be a win on the prelim area injunction. they might continue to fight the case. but this is a loss. caroline: interesting. many have felt that even though the ftc lost, they have managed to force the hand of microsoft to make some changes. so have u.k. regulators. why don't you think that has been enough? >> there is also a settlement in the european union where they are going to be giving some licenses for other cloud gaming services to be able to use call of duty. that is great, that's progress. but we would still be concerned about the competitive impacts of the merger. it is not just about call. it is also the next big game.

and i'm concerned about independent gamers, independent game studios having the same opportunity is to reach customers and for those gamers to have access to those games. there are going to be broader anticompetitive impacts we are concerned about and i think call of duty is not the only thing that needs to be fixed. caroline: as you mentioned, dealers in the ftc could appeal. the u.k. might have to start from scratch, coming with different ways they could alleviate the previous veto to the deal. what could they do to alleviate those concerns? charlotte: it would be difficult to address this merger with behavioral remedies, with a settlement. i think that is still on the table. but those settlements are oftentimes limited. the settlement in the european union is for 10 years.

a lot could happen. i think about past mergers where they see the 10 year settlement. it ends up going by fast and consumers are left with a consolidated market. they are only agreeing to a settlement that will solve the problem. caroline: they are almost trying to unwind the shift of this authority and the way in which it views deals and the adverse effects of monopolies or size and scale. it is not all about -- is lena con going about this in the right way to take on these big deals, trying to take these and

losing? charlotte: it would be better to win. but you will have losses. it may be part of what ends up being in a long process. that is what we really need. the cases are showing the law is not where it needs to be. we need congress to be able to act. there was so much attention and excitement about antitrust in congress last year. it did not pass any new legislation. we need stronger antitrust laws in the u.s. to have competitive markets. caroline: potentially in the u.k.. what model do you want to see, what changes from a legal perspective? charlotte: with this case, it seems that court got this

tripped up on the idea of a vertical merger. maybe where a game studio is buying a game studio. this is a provider of console, some services and buying a game studio. the court saw it as a vertical merger and talked about how they may have competitive benefits and are rarely stopped. that is not the same as having a presumption in the law in favor of vertical mergers. they can be illegal under antitrust law. it is clear that that needs to be more clear. the ftc is working on new merger guidelines. that will be an opportunity for them to educate judges and make it more clear that vertical mergers can be harmful. but that is also an area congress can help with. caroline: many would see this as a relatively democrat heavy ftc.

charlotte: certainly there are no publican commissioners at the ftc right now. but that is on the people who need to move forward with that. but there has been why partisan interest. there were multiple bipartisan bills that passed through the judiciary committee with bipartisan votes. republicans are also interested in the enforcement and that is how we get the free market functioning correctly. caroline: thank you, your previous expertise working with the ftc and now director of public policy. coming up, how american express is trying to take on the world with the help of fintech, more with american express raymond joabar. this is bloomberg. ♪

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caroline: has been four years since american express claimed its cards are accepted at as many places as rivals visa mastercard in the u.s.. it is looking to do something similar overseas and is partnering with some of the biggest fintech companies, the latest will help merchants accept american express more broadly. you're the one going around for amex. has this been the one to ensure that the likes of streit and square are enabling my ability

to use it in the u.k.? >> not only the u.k. but around the world. partnerships with processors and fintech, they have been helping to fuel our growth. it is growing rapidly. there far more confidence. it is also been along the ground, getting sales in front of certain types of merchants to bring them around to using amex. how is that gone and what kind of companies and sellers are coming to your platform echo -- platform? >> we started that. our origins our own travel and entertainment. our cardmembers wanted to use the cards far more places. we provided incentives and we needed to move into everyday

spent categories. a lot of smaller shops and retail. as we started down that journey, we deployed a hybrid acquiring model. our proprietary team sign and manage this. it allows partners and fintechs to manage that. we have more than tripled the locations that are accepting american express and that gives card numbers more confidence to pull out their card and we have this desire to eliminate the question do you accept american express. caroline: not just in luxury places. what you think of a more lucrative, higher spending using amex. but you're going to u.k. key coders--cutters.

but how much has this been the driver of where you go and put your resources to work echo -- work? raymond: data is a thing that makes us unique. we issue many of the cards that our card members carry, and we have direct relationships with merchants. that creates tremendous data. one of the universal truths that all businesses care about is that they want to find new customers. we can use the data we have to allow merchants to market to our premium high spending cardmembers. whether it is tesco or smaller merchants in everyday spend categories, we want to make sure we have confidence everywhere we want to spend but also we can help them grow, allowing us to be an efficient marketing channel so they can market into our premium cardmember base and find new customers. it is something we call amex offers. it is powered by the unique and

rich data we have by being the issuer of the cars -- cards at having those relationships. caroline: why do this now, when we are thinking about an economy that is tougher and we are thinking about people spending in a different matter, why make this commitment to be more overseas? raymond: two things. our card members wanted to use their card in more places. we started on this journey in the u.s. to reach parity. in the u.s., 99% of that merchants that accept credit cards now accept american express. and we wanted to make sure we were in the places where our cardmembers live, work and travel. we focus the teams on international cities and we have made material progress. they expect -- accept american express since 2018 and we continue to have upside above that. now is a great time to do it. mac expresses been around for 173 years.

we've been through all types of cycles. we are operating in a cyclical environment. but economies -- good economies and bad, we know to give them confidence. caroline: great to have some time with you. now get back to work in the u.k., american express president of network services. we will all go back to sun valley coming up, where tech and media exhibited's best executives are smiling for the camera and but everything. chips, entertainment, deals. what the paramount ceo thinks about the summer block -- box office this year. >> feeling great. we are opening my seven this weekend, a great film. it is a thrill ride.

caroline: president biden speaking at the nato summit in that the mania. pres. biden: it is good to be

back in a nation and region that knows better than everyone the transfer made in all power of freedom -- china summation of power -- transformation of power -- transformational power of freedom. the baltic way, not the berlin wall, became a symbol for your future. when the soviet tanks saw it once more to deny your independence, the people said no . in january of 1991, tens of thousands of citizens, unarmed and unyielding, came of their own accord. standing as a tower to shield the council and defend freedom. 14 heroes tragically lost their lives. hundreds were wounded.

but the world saw that decades of oppression had done nothing to dim the flame of liberty in this country. [applause] pres. biden: i mean it. it is consequential. the light of lithuania, you kept it strong and right, and you kept the light shining. in washington, d.c. where the yellow, green and red of your flag flew everyday, this past year we celebrated 100 years of unbroken double medic relationship between united states and the baltic states. america never recognized the soviet occupation. never. [applause] pres. biden: besides, you got a great president. stand up. [applause]

pres. biden: as your president can tell you, the bond between lithuania and the american people have never faltered. just seven months after the bloody january crackdown, the first foreign visitor to have their passport stamped in lithuania with visas to this new reborn state were a plane load of lithuanian americans from chicago, illinois. and their families are still proud of that. los angeles came after that. a lot came after. many have boarded a plane of lithuania during the early years of the soviet depression and marveled at the return to this independent state. one of them told reporters, quote, this day is like a resurrection for us. this day is like a resurrection.

that is the quote. that was the feeling and it was. a resurrection that quickly became a revelation. and a nation that stands today as a stronghold of liberty and opportunity. a proud member of the european union at of nato. [applause] pres. biden: it is a great honor as a united states senator, i championed with winnie and nato in 2004. was not brilliant. all kidding aside, think about how it has changed things. what is happened. now as president of the united states, i have the honor of participating in a historic nato summit hosted by lithuania where we welcome the newest ally, finland, and reach an agreement to bring sweden's into the alliance as soon as possible. [applause]

pres. biden: president erdogan kept his word. we have witnessed the start turning and i'm proud to call with winnie a friend, partner and ally. -- lithuania a friend, partner and ally. soon, nato will be the 32nd resending -- have 32 free standing members standing together to defend our people and our territory. beyond all of the rest, powered by democratic values to make us strong and by our secret of. an attack against one is an attack against all. because each member of nato knows that the strength of our people and the power of our unity cannot be denied. [applause] pres. biden: if i sound

optimistic it is because i am. today our alliance is a bulwark of global security as it has been for sovereign -- or seven decades. nato is stronger, more energized and more united than ever in its history. more vital to our shared future. it did not happen by accident. it was not inevitable. when putin and his lust for land and power unleashed this brutal war on ukraine, he was betting nato would break apart. he was betting nato would break. he thought our unity would shatter at the first testing. he thought democratic leaders would be weak. but he thought wrong. faced with a threat -- [applause] pres. biden: faced with a threat to the peace and civility of the world, the democratic values we hold dealer -- dear, freedom itself, we did what we always

do. the united states and nato stepped up, our partners in europe and the endo pacific stepped up -- indo pacific stepped up. we were ready because we stood together. in the months leading up to the war, putin lay the groundwork for his brutal invasion. i was in constant contact with my fellow leaders at the european union and nato. we warned the world what he was planning. even some of ukraine did not believe what the community found. we made sure nato was prepared to deter aggression against any member state. we pursued diplomacy with russia to avert this terrible war. and when russian bombs began to fall, we did not hesitate to act. the rally to support the people of ukraine as they defend their liberty and sovereignty with dignity.

i mean that from the bottom of my heart. think about what they are doing. after nearly a year and a half of russian forces committing terrible atrocities, crimes against amenity, the people of ukraine remain unbroken. ukraine remains independent, free. the united states has built a coalition of more than 50 nations to make sure ukraine defends itself both now and in the future. since this war began, i spoke to president zelenskyy, in washington, kyiv, hiroshima -- we declare to the world what i say again, we will not waiver. we will not waiver. i mean that. our commitment to ukraine will not weaken.

it will stand for liberty and freedom today, tomorrow and for as long as it takes. [applause] pres. biden: we all what this war to end on just terms. return to the basic principles of the united nations charter that we all signed up to. sovereignty, territorial integrity. these are two colors of peaceful relations among nations. one country cannot be allowed to seize and neighbors territory by force. russia could end this war tomorrow by withdrawing its forces from ukraine. and ceasing attacks on russia. -- i russia on ukraine, against its children, women and children, its military. unfortunately, russia has shown no interest in the diplomatic outcome.