pm mitsotakis: greece went through a lot. it was a very painful period. we will never ever relieve these difficult times. francine: kyriakos mitsotakis, the greek prime minister who many have credited for the transformation of the country and its economy from the basket case of europe to one of the continent's top economic performers.

in this episode of "leaders with lacqua," and in his first interview since being elected, mitsotakis sets out a series of plans and objectives for the next four years. he tells them how he wants to restore greece's investment grade status, lower inequality, and continue the fight against populism. pm mitsotakis: we prevailed through politics of competence. yes, there is a future beyond populism, and we have proven that if you run a competent government, you can make it possible to be reelected. francine: he also speaks candidly about his push to legalize same-sex marriage and balance booming tourism with the need to protect his country's natural beauty. pm mitsotakis: there are parts of greece that have reached saturation points, and if we have to place restrictions, we will. francine: my conversation with kyriakos mitsotakis, next on "leaders with lacqua." prime minister, you have a

second mandate from the greek people. how do you think that will unfold in the coming years? pm mitsotakis: first of all i am very happy, very honored and very proud to secure a second mandate. we got a higher share of the vote than in 2013, something that was unusual for increment -- incumbent governments in these difficult times. i want to make sure that i use this mandate to drive forward an aggressive reform agenda and to make sure that greece makes up for the lost ground of the crisis and actually converges with europe at a very fast pace. so a high growth rate is for me, my number one priority. this will also give us the fiscal space to drive through important changes in health, in education, and in other policies that i care about. francine: you are very confident that you will get investment-grade. when you get investment-grade, what does that change in terms of possible extra investment coming into the country? pm mitsotakis: it changes a lot of things.

there is currently a lot of capital that can be invested in greece simply because we are not investment-grade. as you know, we are already trading as if we are in investment-grade country, but we also need the official stamp of approval by the rating agencies. i think it will further lower our cost of borrowing, which is of course important in a high interest environment. we have been able to defy the trend. the greek economy will grow significantly in 2023. and this is also giving us the fiscal space to further reduce our debt. we will be able before the end of the year, to actually repay ahead of time our glfa facility for the next two years. i think this will also send a positive signal to the markets that not only are we focused on growth, but we want to make sure our debt to gdp ratio continues to decline at a very rapid pace. francine: it is a promise to investors. >> it is a commitment to investors that we will accelerate the reforms and we will make sure that whatever reforms we implement will be done in such a way not to compromise our country's fiscal position. greece went through a lot. it's a very painful period.

we will never ever relive these difficult times. but i think we have proven that you can drive high-growth, reasonably reduce taxes, while at the same time, mentoring very -- maintaining very healthy public finances. i do expect our debt to gdp to continue to decline significantly and of course, again, this will give us the fiscal space to make sure that markets can repay part of our debt ahead of time. francine: how difficult is it to do this with the cost-of-living crisis? pm mitsotakis: the cost-of-living crisis is very difficult. it hits the poorer segments of the society disproportionately hard. two points. first of all, we have lower inflation than most european countries. and i think we were successful in using targeted measures to help those in greater need. we resisted the temptation to lower vat and excise taxes. and now i am happy to see that a lot of studies coming out now

point out the fact that lowering vat does not lead to a reduction in inflation. this gave us fiscal space to use targeted measures. we will probably continue these targeted measures especially when it comes to the supermarket -- we are concerned about food prices. and i prefer a direct cash transfer to more vulnerable greeks to help them with a supermarket bill than a horizontal cut in vat which will drain public finances. francine: when do you expect inflation to come down? pm mitsotakis: it has been persistent. i wish i had a crystal ball. but what i do know is that it is coming down faster than other european countries although it is still an area of concern. and of course, interest rate policies are not driven by us, so we have to adjust.

it is good news that, for example, in greece, consumer confidence has been growing, whereas in the rest of europe it has been on a downward trend. we seem to defy the trend. not only will we avoid that recession but we will you know, grow by more than 2%. given the circumstances, i would say that is pretty good. francine: when you look at your opposition, you actually have none in parliament. but you do have the rise of three far-right parties. what can you tell us about them? are they pro-russian? pm mitsotakis: we have a comfortable majority in parliament. we essentially have a 23% gap in the opposition. the left suffered a strategic defeat in these elections. i am happy because we prevailed through politics of competence and reason. we moved the party towards the political center. there is future beyond populism, and we have proven that if you run a competent government, you can actually make it possible to get reelected. i think this is a good message for everyone fighting an

election against populists, whether they come from the left, or the right. the extreme right, it is concerning. we have three small parties in parliament at a 3% threshold. they managed to be right about that. the total is probably 12% or 13% of the electors. we have no idea what they stand for. it will make parliament probably louder and more interesting. and more interesting. but, no, the extreme right is not organized though it is in other countries. we certainly don't need the extreme right to govern. we managed to govern on our own and this was always a strategic choice by moving the party to the center, while making sure we attract enough people to have an absolute majority. so we are able to do that. these are fringe parties. some are sort of pro-russian. not very explicitly, but indirectly. but they are not a big factor in greek politics. francine: so you don't think it

is a warning of something to come for other european countries? pm mitsotakis: i always take the grievances of people who vote for protest party seriously. it is true some people feel marginalized, they feel threatened, that maybe the world is moving at a faster pace and they are being left behind. but in greece, because we went through a crisis, i think there has been a process of greek society really maturing. and maybe actually in terms of the political development, leapfrogging what is happening in many other european countries. so we want a second mandate which is even stronger politically than the first one. i think this says something about greek society. and in that sense, it also gives the necessary political predictability to investors. because i always said, you need two terms to really do a big transformation project. so i think investors are also looking at greece and they look at four years until the next national election.

a stable government, a safe pair of hands. i am sure they like what they see in terms of politics in the country. francine: up next, tourism accounts for about 1/5 of greece's economy. but as visitors flock to the country and its beautiful islands, the prime minister is at pains to make sure they don't trade nature for short-term profit. pm mitsotakis: i want to make sure in five years from now, we will not have sacrificed the beauty of our natural environment at the interest of very rapid growth. ♪

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relationship do you want with china? pm mitsotakis: i would frame our relationship with china within the context of the european union as a whole, we can work with china on various issues. but they are also a competitor and rival on many other issues. i have been advocating for a comprehensive european approach vis-a-vis china. we cannot decouple, but we want

to the risk. china is also relevant for us. and china is an important market for our agricultural products, for example. they could be an important market in terms of bringing in chinese tourists. it is much less important as a source of capital. for example when you look at the big infrastructure projects and how we funded them over the years, no capital practically, came from china. but we will certainly align our policy with the overall european approach when it comes to china. francine: when you say it is impossible to decouple, is it because the codependency is too big on certain chips and manufacturers? pm mitsotakis: i do think in a globalized economy -- i am not so much talking about the greek economy, but the globalized economy, it is a reality. we want more independence over supply chains, but there is a limit as to how much we can do that. francine: what do you worry most about your economy? tourism is booming, but it also means some of the islands are overcrowded. pm mitsotakis: thank you for asking this question, because i want to make sure that, five years from now, we will not have sacrificed the beauty of our sort of natural environment at

the interest of a very rapid growth. so that's why i am focusing on sustainable growth. that's why i will always push for quality over quantity. very strict in terms of standards. we are actually looking at our local and regional planning legislation across the country to make sure that we know exactly what we can build and where we can build it. there are parts of greece which have reached saturation point, that if we have to place restrictions, we will, in order to protect. especially the islands which are more sensitive. francine: does that look like a tax if you go on an island? pm mitsotakis: there's only so much we can do for certain islands. i don't want to single them out. we are not there in terms of things like taxes. that is not something currently in the cards. but i am more concerned with how many people we can get on an island and make sure the island is still functioning, but also for tourists to have a more positive experience. because at the end of the day when something is overcrowded, people don't necessarily appreciate it too. it's not rocket science. we are beginning to do it and planning it so that when you

have cruise ships, they don't always come at the same time. doing it smarter way to makes sure you can get more cruise ships, but also that the island doesn't overflow with new visitors. francine: prime minister, how much time will you spend tackling tax evasion? pm mitsotakis: a lot. it is an important issue. it's not just a question of equity, but also a question of having additional revenues for our schools or our health care system. we have made good progress in terms of reducing the vat gap. we have been diligent in making electronic transactions more attractive. covid also helped in that direction. and we saw the tangible results. and as we sort of digitized the entire sort of supply chain, make it also easier for our tax authorities to be more targeted and smarter in terms of going after tax evasion. for me, this is big. francine: were you frustrated

that it wasn't as fast as you thought it would be? pm mitsotakis: to a certain extent, yes. although in terms of the vat gap, we have made good progress. we had a legacy of tax evasion, but it is also, this is also something which is very much related to collective trust. people feel that they get quality public services, they will be more inclined to pay their taxes. but we have also proven that if you actually lower taxes in an economy that has a tradition of tax evasion, that it can actually bring in more revenue -- not true always, for all countries. in our case, this was actually very much true. so our strategy of gradually lowering taxes has actually worked and has actually brought in more revenues. francine: up next, prime minister mitsotakis on why pushing for lgbtq rights is one of his priorities. pm mitsotakis: homosexual people couldn't even give blood before

we came into power. we still had horrible conversion therapies which were technically legal for, you know, gay teenagers. i mean, really. we banned all that and we will continue to implement our strategies. ♪ flu shots at cvs are pretty... flex. schedule one for you... or the whole crew. plus, they're free. really? healthier is getting a flu shot on your schedule. cvs. healthier happens together. explore endless design possibilities. to find your personal style. endless hardie® siding colors. textures and styles. it's possible. with james hardie™. this is a clustomer. hello! it's what happens when marketers group customers with very different behaviors... into one tangled mess. this is a mess!

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the middle east to asia and africa. in june, hundreds died or were lost at sea as a fishing vessel crowded with migrants and asylum seekers capsized off the coast of greece. i spoke to the prime minister about the tragedy. prime minister, coast guards of course, have not been portrayed in a positive light recently because of the migrant boats that have sank. are you taking action to make sure that doesn't happen again? pm mitsotakis: we have been implementing a migration strategy that i have always described as tough and fair. our number one priority is for people not to drown at sea, but also to protect our borders. my theory is very simple, the less people you have at sea, the less likelihood that you may have a tragedy like the one that unfolded in international

waters, but off the greek coast. and we have been able to make the strategy work in the eastern mediterranean. we have broken those smuggler networks. and it is very unfair when i look at, for example, ngo's or part of the international press, they place the emphasis on the coast guard, but they don't talk about the smugglers who put these desperate people on a boat that was obviously not seaworthy. every time there is an incident, there is always an investigation. and even regarding this tragedy, there is an ongoing traditional investigation. obviously, i cannot comment on it, but pointing the finger at the coast guard, our coast guard has saved tens of thousands of people. it is unfair, unjust, and also wrong as a strategy. because at the end of the day, what we do not want is -- we have to be vigilant in protecting our borders, but we also need legal pathways either for humanitarian reasons -- so, for refugees. or also for economic migrants. one of our goals in greece is to sort of expand labor market participation.

and when i look at certain jobs, for example, in the agricultural sector, we have difficulties finding people to do these jobs. i would much more prefer, and we are already putting in place these types of programs, for example, to have an arrangement with countries such as egypt or bangladesh where we offer work visas for people to legally work here and they will come and work and they will be insured and they don't need to embark on the dangerous trip. but we will control the policy. we cannot leave this policy, we can't let this policy be controlled by the smugglers. francine: do you feel let down by the european union? should they be helping you more in trying to deal with the situation? also, the refugee camps. pm mitsotakis: to be honest, first of all, the european council is placing much more emphasis on the external aspect of migration. which is essentially border management. they have also funded a lot of our camps. if you go to the islands, you will see ultramodern facilities. five years ago we had the horror of one camp under a socialist

government which supposedly was "progressive and caring" quote unquote, about the humane conditions of migrants. there has been support from the european union. i want them to finance barriers, what we call fences, but other measures to help us protect our border. and of course, we are working with frontex. frontex is not an ngo. maybe some people in the parliament believe that it should be an ngo. but frontex is not an ngo. frontex is a border protection unit heavily funded by the european union. we are always working on whatever issues arise and try to cooperate and resolve them. francine: there is no change in policy on refugees? pm mitsotakis: there has been an aggressive change on policy at the level of the council which

is most welcome. we want to make sure that we place the external dimension of migration front and center. because we talk a lot about the internal dimension, which is how we move people once they enter the european union. who should be responsible for welcoming? are we going to have quotas? unless we reduce the number of people who enter the union illegally, we will not be able to address this problem. we need to offer legal pathways and we need to be more effective when it comes to returns. francine: prime minister, you have done a lot of work on lgbtq rights. how much will that continue? pm mitsotakis: it will continue. we have an lgbtq equality strategy. we are happy about some of our initiatives which means a lot to me. you know, homosexual people couldn't even give blood before we came into power. we still had horrible conversion therapies which were technically legal for gay teenagers.

i mean, really. we banned all that, and we will continue to implement our strategy. it is a long-term project but i think greek society is much more ready and much more mature. it is interesting that all of these initiatives have been launched by a center-right government and not by the previous government, which theoretically, again, belonged to the left. and i think this is also a testimony to the fact that we are truly a progressive government. francine: we will only reach true equality when you have same-sex marriage. pm mitsotakis: it is part of our strategy and it is a work in progress. we have a civil union already. at some point, this strategy will come to a head. francine: prime minister, how would you describe yourself as a leader?

you have delivered a lot of your goals, done better than expected in the polls. what drives you? pm mitsotakis: i don't like too much to talk about myself. [laughs] but i would really like to look at greece after eight years and say, yes, we have made big changes. it's not just about management and playing defense. it's really about changing the country. if you look at its 200-year history, it has gone through spells where really big changes happened. and i hope i can make my own contribution in making sure that we completely break out of this sort of spell that really dragged us towards, especially towards the bottom during the second decade of the 21st century. you know, we lost 25% of our gdp. this was the biggest contraction since the second world war in any oecd country. but it is an opportunity to really change the country.

essentially what i can do is make sure i release creative forces. greeks are incredibly talented and i want them to be able to prosper in the country rather than move abroad. francine: what is your biggest dream for greece? pm mitsotakis: to become a global protagonist in those areas where we can be a protagonist, and to be able to catch up in those areas where we are still laggards. and to address what i consider the three big challenges, which is the environment, the digital challenge the opportunities and with threats of ai, but for me, the most important challenge is income inequality. at the end of the day, i want to look at the goals we delivered. i will be happy if i see less inequality rather than more. it's always a risk in rapidly growing economies that you actually have more inequality. we have been able to lower inequality over the past four years because we have actively supported those in need. at the end of the day, it is about giving opportunity to those who are less privileged. this is what really excites me and makes me work harder when i feel tired. francine: prime minister, do you

think that is why people voted for you, or is it because they didn't have a real alternative? pm mitsotakis: i think that maybe in 2019, people voted for us because they were fed up with the previous government. in this election, i am pretty sure people voted for us because they bought into our story and our vision for the future. again, it is unusual to see this level of support in a western democracy, in a multiparty system. so i think they placed their trust in us, and we have to reciprocate. a big victory gives us cause for celebration. that probably lasts for hours rather than days. and then suddenly you have the weight of people's expectations on your shoulders, the weight of the office on your shoulders.

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