pm mitsotakis: greece went through a lot. it was a very painful period. we will never ever relive these difficult times.

francine: kyriakos mitsotakis, the greek prime minister who many have credited for the transformation of the country and its economy from the basket case of europe to one of the continent's top economic performers. in this episode of "leaders with lacqua," and in his first interview since being reelected, mitsotakis sets out a series of plans and objectives for the next four years. he tells me how he wants to restore greece's investment grade status, lower inequality, and continue the fight against populism. pm mitsotakis: we prevailed through politics of competence. reason. we moved the party towards the political centers. yes, there is a future beyond populism, and we have proven that if you run a competent government, you can make it possible to get reelected. francine: he also speaks candidly about his push to legalize same-sex marriage and balance booming tourism with the need to protect his country's natural beauty. pm mitsotakis: there are parts of greece which have reached saturation point, and if we have to place restrictions, we will. francine: my conversation with kyriakos mitsotakis, next on

"leaders with lacqua." francine:u have a second mandate from the greek people. what is your intention on how that will unfold in the coming years? pm mitsotakis: first of all, i am very happy, very honored and very proud to be able to secure a second mandate. we actually got a higher share of the vote than in 2019, something that is unusual for incumbent governments in these difficult times. and i want to make sure that i use this mandate to drive forward an aggressive reform agenda and to make sure that greece makes up for the lost ground of the crisis and actually converges with europe at a very fast pace. so a high growth rate is, for me, my number one priority. this will also give us the fiscal space to drive through important changes in health, in education, and other policies and areas i deeply care about. francine: you are very confident that you will get investment-grade. when you get investment-grade, what does that mean in terms of

possible extra investment coming into the country? pm mitsotakis: i think it changes a lot of things. there is currently a lot of capital that cannot be invested in greece simply because we are not investment grade. as you know, we are already trading as if we are in an investment grade country, but we also need the official stamp of approval by the rating agencies. i think it will further lower our cost of borrowing, which is, of course, important in a high interest environment. we have been able to defy the trend. the greek economy will grow significantly in 2023. this is also giving us the fiscal space to further reduce our debt. we will be able, before the end of the year, to actually repay ahead of time our glfa facility for the next two years. i think this will also send a positive signal to the markets that not only are we focused on growth, but we also want to make sure our debt to gdp ratio continues to decline at a very rapid pace. francine: it is a promise to investors.

pm mitsotakis: and it is a commitment to investors that we will accelerate the reforms and we will make sure that whatever reforms we implement will be done in such a way not to compromise our country's fiscal position. greece went through a lot. through a very painful period. we will never ever relive these difficult times. but i think we have proven that you can drive high growth, you can reasonably reduce taxes, while at the same time, maintaining very healthy public finances. and i do expect our debt to gdp to continue to decline significantly, and of course, again, this will give us the fiscal space to make sure that we ensure markets that we are serious and will repay part of our debt ahead of time. francine: how difficult is it to do this with the cost-of-living crisis? pm mitsotakis: the cost-of-living crisis is very concerning to us. of course, it has hit the poorer segments of society disproportionately hard. two points.

first of all, we have lower inflation than most european countries. and i think we were successful in using targeted measures to help those in greater need. we resisted the temptation to lower vat and excise taxes. and now, i am happy to see that a lot of studies coming out now point out the fact that lowering vat does not lead to a reduction in inflation. this gave us the fiscal space to use targeted measures. we will most probably continue these targeted measures, especially when it comes to the supermarket. we are concerned about food prices. and i prefer a direct cash transfer to more vulnerable greeks to help them with a supermarket bill than a horizontal cut in vat which will drain my public finances. and probably will not be effective in terms of containing inflation. francine: when do you expect inflation -- i don't know how much this has to do with the war in ukraine, but when do you expect food inflation to come down? pm mitsotakis: it has been persistent. i wish i had a crystal ball. but what i do know is that it is

coming down faster than other european countries although it is still an area of concern. and, of course, interest rate policies are not driven by us, so we have to adjust. but it is good news that, for example, in greece, consumer confidence and pmi has been growing, whereas in the rest of europe, it has been on a downward trend. so we seem to be defying the trend. not only will we avoid that recession but we will you know, grow by more than 2%. this year. which, given the circumstances, i would say that is pretty good. francine: prime minister, if you look at your opposition, you actually have none in parliament. but you do have the rise of three far-right parties. what can you tell us about them? are they pro-russian? pm mitsotakis: first of all, we have a comfortable majority in parliament. essentially we have a 23% gap from the opposition. the left suffered a strategic defeat in these elections. i am happy because we prevailed through politics of competence

and reason. we moved the party towards the political center. yes, there is a future beyond populism, and we have proven that if you run a competent government, you can actually make it possible to get reelected. so, i think this is a good message for everyone fighting an election against populists, whether they come from the left, or from the right. as far as the extreme right is concerned, yes, we have three small parties in parliament at a 3% threshold. they managed to be right about ove that. the total is probably 12% or 13% of the electors. for two of these parties, we have no idea what they stand for. it will make parliament probably louder. i don't know if it will be more interesting, but no, the extreme right is not organized the way it is in other countries. and we certainly don't need the extreme right to govern. we managed to govern on our own and this was always a strategic choice by me moving the party to the center, while making sure we attract enough people to have an

absolute majority. we are able to do that. these are fringe parties. yes, some of them are sort of pro-russian. not very explicitly, but indirectly. they are not a big factor in greek politics. francine: so you don't think it is a warning of something to come, either for other european countries --? pm mitsotakis: i always take the grievances of people who vote for protest parties seriously. it is true some people feel marginalized, they feel threatened, they feel that maybe the world is moving at a faster pace and they are being left behind. but in greece, because we went through a crisis, i think there has been a process of greek society really maturing. maybe in terms of the political development, leapfrogging what is happening in many other european countries. we won a second mandate, which is even stronger politically than the first one. this says something about greek society. in that sense, it also gives the

necessary political predictability to investors. because i always said that you need two terms to really do a big transformation project. i think investors are also looking at greece and they look at four years until the next national election. a stable government, a safe pair of hands. ' so, im sure they like what they see in terms of the politics of the country. francine: up next, tourism accounts for about a fifth of greece's economy. but as visitors flock to the country and its beautiful islands, the prime minister is at pains to make sure he does not trade nature for short-term profit. pm mitsotakis: i want to make sure in five years from now, we will not have sacrificed the beauty of our natural environment at the interest of a very rapid growth. ♪

francine: the relationship between the united states and

china is complex. it has been strained by recent comments from washington that it wants to de-risk itself from the world's second largest economy. but how should a european nation like greece handle beijing? i continue the conversation with prime minister mitsotakis. prime minister, what kind of relationship do you want with china? pm mitsotakis: i would frame our relationship with china within the context of the european union. as a whole, we can work with china on various issues. but they are also a competitor and also a rival on many other issues. i have been advocating for a comprehensive european approach vis-a-vis china. we do not want to decouple. frankly, we cannot decouple, but we want to de-risk. which means a more measured and intelligent approach vis-a-vis china. which is also relevant for us. and china is an important market

for our agricultural products, for example. it could be an important market in terms of bringing in chinese tourists. it is much less important as a source of capital. for example, when you look at the big infrastructure projects and how we funded them over the past years, no capital, practically, came from china. but we will certainly align our policy with the overall european approach when it comes to china. francine: when you say it is impossible to decouple, is it because the codependency is too big on certain chips and manufacturing? pm mitsotakis: i do think that in a globalized economy -- i am not so much talking about the greek economy, but the global economy is a reality. we want more independence over supply chains, but there is a limit as to how much we can do that. francine: what do you worry most about your economy? in greece tourism is booming, but it also means some of the islands are overcrowded. is there something you want to do about that?

pm mitsotakis: thank you for asking this question, because i want to make sure that, five years from now, we will not have sacrificed the beauty of our, sort of, natural environment at the interest of a very rapid growth. so that's why i am really focusing on sustainable growth. that's why i will always push for quality over quantity. very strict in terms of standards. we are actually looking at our local and regional planning legislation across the country to make sure that we know exactly what we can build and where we can build it. there are parts of greece which have reached saturation point, and if we have to place restrictions, we will, in order to protect. especially islands which are more sensitive. francine: does that look like a tax, if you go on an island? pm mitsotakis: restrictions in terms of building. there's only so much we can do for certain islands. i don't want to single them out. we are not there in terms of things like taxes. that is not something currently in the cards. but i am more concerned with how many people we can actually get on an island and make sure the island is still functioning, but

also for tourists to have a more positive experience. because, at the end of the day, when something is overcrowded, people don't necessarily appreciate it. it's not rocket science. for example, we are beginning to plan it so that when you have cruise ships, they don't always come at the same time. we can manage the berths in a smarter way to make sure you can get more cruise ships, but also that the island doesn't overflow with visitors certain hours of day. francine: prime minister, how much time are you going to spend on tackling tax evasion? pm mitsotakis: a lot. because this is an important issue. it's not just a question of equity, but also a question of making sure we have additional revenues for our schools or our health care system. we have made good progress in terms of reducing the vat gap. we are being very diligent in terms of making electronic transactions more attractive.

covid also helped us in that direction. we saw the tangible results. as we sort of digitize the entire sort of supply chain, make it also easier for our tax authorities to be more targeted and smarter in terms of going after tax evasion. for me, this is a big priority. francine: were you frustrated that it wasn't as fast as you thought it would be? pm mitsotakis: to a certain extent, yes. although in terms of the vat gap, we have made good progress. we had a legacy of tax evasion, but this also something which is very much related to collective trust. people feel that they get quality public services, they will be more inclined to pay their taxes. but we have also proven that if you actually lower taxes in an economy that has a tradition of tax evasion, that it can actually bring in more revenue. not true always, for all countries. in our case, this was actually very much true. our strategy of gradually lowering taxes has actually

worked and has actually brought in more revenues. francine: up next, prime minister mitsotakis on why pushing for lgbtq rights is one of his priorities. pm mitsotakis: homosexual people couldn't even give blood before we came into power. we still had horrible conversion therapies, which were technically legal for gay teenagers. we banned all that and we will continue to implement our strategies. ♪

francine: greece is one of the main routes into the european union for refugees and migrants from the middle east, asia, and africa. in june, hundreds died or were lost at sea as a fishing vessel crowded with migrants and asylum-seekers capsized off the coast of greece. i spoke to the prime minister about the tragedy. francine: prime minister, coast guards, of course, have not been portrayed in a positive light recently because of migrant boats that have sank. are you taking action to make sure that doesn't happen again? pm mitsotakis: we have been implementing a migration strategy that i have always described as tough and fair. our number one priority is for people not to drown at sea, but also to protect our borders. my theory is very simple, the less people you have at sea, the less likelihood that you may

have a tragedy like the one that unfolded in international waters, but off the greek coast. and we have been able to make this strategy work in the eastern mediterranean. we have broken the smugglers networks. it is very unfair when i look at, for example, ngo's or part of the international press, they place the emphasis on the coast guard, but they don't talk about the smugglers who put these desperate people on a boat that was obviously not seaworthy. every time there is an incident, there is always an investigation. even regarding this tragedy, there is an ongoing judicial investigation. obviously, i cannot comment on it, but pointing the finger at the coast guard -- our coast guard has saved tens of thousands of people. it is unfair, unjust, and also wrong as a strategy. because, at the end of the day, what we do not want is a post strategy.

so we have to be vigilant in protecting our borders, but we also need legal pathways either for humanitarian regions, so refugees, or also for economic migrants. one of our goals in greece is to sort of expand labor market participation. when i look at certain jobs, for example, in the agricultural sector, we have difficulties finding people to do these jobs. i would much more prefer, and we are already putting in place these types of programs, for example, to have an arrangement with countries such as egypt or bangladesh where we offer work visas for people to legally work here. they will come and work and they will be insured and they don't need to embark on a dangerous trip. but we will control the policy. we cannot leave this policy, we can't let this policy be controlled by the smugglers. francine: do you feel let down by the european union? should they be helping you more in trying to deal with the situation? also, the refugee camps that have come under criticism.

pm mitsotakis: to be honest, first of all, it is changing its approach. the european council is placing much more emphasis on the external aspect of migration. which is essentially border management. they have also funded a lot of our camps. if you go to the islands now, you will see ultramodern facilities. five years ago, we had a horror under a socialist government which supposedly was "progressive and cared", quote unquote, about the humane conditions of migrants. there has been support from the european union. yes, i would like them to be bolder and openly finance barriers, what we call fences, but other measures to help us protect our border. we are also working with frontex. frontex is not an ngo. maybe some people in the european parliament believe it should be an ngo. but frontex should not be an ngo. it is a border protection unit . heavily funded by the european

union. and we are always working on whatever issues arise and we always try to cooperate and try to resolve them. francine: there is no change in policy on refugees? pm mitsotakis: there has been a gradual change on policy at the level of the council which is most welcomed. we want to make sure that we place the external dimension of migration front and center. because we talk a lot about the internal dimension, which is how do we move people once they enter the european union? who should be responsible for welcoming? are we going to have quotas? and these are difficult topics. but unless we reduce the number of people who enter the union illegally, we will not be able to address this problem. again, this is not sufficient. we need to offer legal pathways and we also need to be more effective when it comes to returns. francine: prime minister, you have also done a lot of work on lgbtq rights. how much will that continue? pm mitsotakis: it will continue. we have a lgbtq equality

strategy that we are putting in place. it is a work in progress, but we are happy about some of our initiatives, which mean a lot to me. homosexual people couldn't even give blood before we came into power. we still had horrible conversion therapies, which were technically legal, for gay teenagers. we banned all that, and we will continue to implement our strategy. it is a long-term project but i think greek society is much more ready and much more mature. its interesting that all of these initiatives have been launched by a center-right government, and not by the previous government, which theoretically, again, belonged to the left. this is also a testimony to the fact that we are truly a progressive government. francine: will you only reach true equality when you have same-sex marriage? pm mitsotakis: it will happen at some point. it is part of our strategy and it is a work in progress. we have civil union already.

at some point, this strategy will come to its end. francine: prime minister, how would you describe yourself as a leader? you have delivered on a lot of your goals. you have done better than expected in the polls. what drives you? pm mitsotakis: i don't like too much to talk about myself. [laughs] but i would really like to look at greece after eight years and say, yes, we have made big changes. this is not just about management and playing defense. it's really about changing the country. this country, if you look at its 200-year history, it has gone through spells where really big changes happened. i hope i can make my own contribution in making sure that we completely break out of this spell that really dragged us towards the bottom, during the second decade of the 21st century.

we lost 25% of our gdp. this was the biggest contraction since the second world war in any oecd country. but it is an opportunity to really change the country. essentially, what i would like to do is make sure i release creative forces. greeks are incredibly talented and i want them to be able to prosper in the country rather than move abroad. francine: what is your biggest dream for greece? pm mitsotakis: to become a global protagonist in those areas where we can be a protagonist, and to be able to catch up in those areas where we are still laggards. and to address what i consider to be the three big challenges, which is the environment, the digital challenge, the opportunities and threats of ai. but also, for me, probably the most important challenge is income inequality. at the end of the day, i want to look at the goals we delivered.

i will be happy if i see less inequality rather than more. it's always a risk in rapidly-growing economies that you actually have more inequality. we have been able to lower inequality over the past four years because we have actively supported those in need. at the end of the day, it is about giving opportunity to those who are less privileged. this is what really excites me and makes me work harder when i feel tired. francine: prime minister, do you think that is why people voted for you, or is it because they didn't have a real alternative? pm mitsotakis: i think that maybe in 2019, people voted for us because they were fed up with the previous government. in this election, i am pretty sure people voted for us because they bought into our story and our vision for the future. it is unusual to see this level of support in a western democracy, in a multi-party system. they placed their trust in us, and we have to reciprocate. a big victory gives us cause for celebration.

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