emma: i don't want my daughters wasting time thinking about how much they weigh, what they look like. and i think fashion has done a terrible job reinforcing a really unrealistic beauty idea. francine: the entrepreneur driving a multibillion-dollar

retail empire while trying to redefine the role the fashion. british businesswoman emma grede has partnered with one of the most famous families in hollywood. she is chief executive and cofounder of the inclusive fashion brand good american, which she launched in 2016 with khloe kardashian. she is also the founding partner of shapewear label skims, alongside khloe's sister, kim. emma: as a young, black female entrepreneur, the only thing i could do was what i knew from my experience, and the honest truth is i did not set out to create a company that was deeply rooted in the principles of inclusivity and diversity, i set out to make a company that was right for me. francine: in this episode of "leaders with lacqua," i speak with emma grede about her rise to the top, how she measures success, and why diversity remains elusive in the world of fashion. emma grede, thank you so much for joining us on bloomberg. emma: thank you so much for having me. francine: this is so exciting. you represent so much for so many people.

everything you touch, all the businesses you touch turn into gold. did you ever think that you would be such a success? emma: no. and that is mostly because most of the businesses that i touched early in the days didn't turn to gold. [laughs] i love this idea of, like, overnight success, and i feel i would love to continue to perpetuate that myth, but i have just done a lot, and it has been a lot of trial and error along the way. i feel i have probably done every job imaginable, from having, like, a paper route when i was 12 to working in a deli to working in shops to starting things that were less successful, to starting things that had medium success. i feel like that has been a long journey and i am really thankful that now i am 41 years old and i am starting to see this type of success, which is really great. francine: you always wanted to succeed. is that what actually makes your success? emma: you know, i think so. i also think, you know, there is an element of luck in any of these things, right? when you take apart what luck means, i really believe that when opportunity meets preparation.

you know, i was always prepared, and when opportunity came along, i was ready to work for it. there is that old adage of a lot of hard work. i really put the time in, i think. francine: did you always want to be an entrepreneur? emma: no. i never knew what an entrepreneur was. if you would've asked me as a kid -- i mean, i came from east london, and i did not know anyone who had their own business. everyone i knew went to work to pay their bills with usually very little joy in it. so even the idea of doing something that felt purposeful or meaningful or something you enjoyed really was not part of my understanding. i tried really hard to get close to what it is that i love, which is the fashion business. but i didn't ever, ever think about starting my own thing. i think it actually came out of a necessity. i was like, who is going to employ me and pay me what i think i deserve? and i left the company because i was, like, they are just not paying me properly, so i will just have to just pay myself! [laughs] francine: age 24. that was the determination of making something.

emma: do you know what it was? i felt like i was adding a lot of value. and i think so many people through their careers have this feeling, right, i am adding a lot of value, and i'm not being renumerated for what i bring to the table. that feeling became so strong in me. but what do you do? at 24, you know, you don't really have that many options. i did what a lot of people do. i went to a company and tried to do my best at the position i was given. and thankfully somebody saw that and decided, ok, may be will set this girl up on her own. but i talk to so many young people that i employ or people who are trying to get noticed. i honestly think that is such amazingly good advice. because no one is ever going to look at you to do the next thing unless you are excelling where you are today. and so sometimes just buckling down and doing the absolute best job at wherever you are is the best way to get ahead. francine: but then actually making the step of leaving and setting up on your own, you have to be brave and it is not always easy. emma: no, it wasn't always easy. especially i remember the first time i got a little bit of

backing, and they said you will be in charge of your own pnl. and i thought, fantastic. i wrote it down and went home and googled it. "what is a pnl?" [laughs] i didn't know what i didn't know, therefore i had to go for it and learn fast and fail fast. and i think i have done -- throughout my career i have not made the best choices every time, but i think being part of a good entrepreneur is knowing when things are not going right and knowing what you don't know. and i have surrounded myself with the right people continuously. francine: so what is the biggest mistake you have learned from? emma: i think the biggest mistake was probably when i had my first agency, itb. i was killing it in london. so there was this idea that the company was completely exploitable. i went to the u.s., opened an office in new york, that office went really well, then i opened it in l.a., and i failed miserably. underinvested, did not bring the right people in, thought whatever i was doing would translate, and it didn't. i learned that the hard way by

dragging people there and having to close it. there is nothing like a bit of embarrassment to humble the soul. [laughter] i was like, you know, go back. packed everything up. i literally had to pack my own office back up. so that was a fantastic learning. but, again, i never let it break my spirit. i really truly took those learnings. when i started my second company in l.a., i was like, ok, this is where i need to do something different. so i literally packed up my family and went and moved to l.a. i knew if i was going to do something that would be successful, i needed to do it myself, i needed to be in the country, and i needed to give it my absolute all. francine: so is that also giving time to understand the market? it was difficult to do it from not being in the city? emma: yeah, being in-country, being part of the fabric of that culture has been really important, especially for my business good american, that really is about what is happening at the moment, like where are we in society as women, where is fashion?

and i think that has been really important to be, like, where it is all happening. francine: that is a bold move, actually, selling denim to americans. [laughter] emma: it really was. nobody needs more bluejeans, let's be honest. i actually doubted myself when we started. again, coming to a business with mission and purpose at the heart of what we do is what sets us apart. and so i think there are so many brands, but how do consumers make choices these days? right now, we make our choices based on what we believe in, what we feel is important, what we want our children to see. i am a mother of four. so i know only too well that i don't want my daughters wasting time thinking about how much they weigh, what they look like. and i think that fashion has done a terrible job of reinforcing a really unrealistic beauty ideal. and so with good american, the whole premise of the brand was to say, we are going to makes clothes for women, we will let women make their choices, and hopefully we will take some of that pain out of what it means to be left out of the conversation or not represented in fashion. we have done that pretty well, i

think. francine: you have this idea of inclusivity, of making women feel good. who do you talk about it with first? emma: funnily enough, my husband. [laughter] because i think that -- we are both entrepreneurs. it is natural for me to bat any idea backwards and forwards with him. but i have worked for years in the fashion business. so i have been part of the problem. right? it's like i have seen firsthand how some fashion businesses make women feel. and i think there is one thing, being very vocal and being an instagram activist and talking about something, there is a difference in putting where your money where your mouth is and really trying to do something about the problem. and that is what i did with that business, how do i take everything that i have learned and actually do the opposite? and i think that as a young, black female entrepreneur, the only thing i could do was what i know from my experience. the honest truth is i did not set out to create a company that was deeply rooted in the principles of inclusivity and diversity, i set out to make a

company that was right for me and my friends, and i knew that, if i have a problem, chances are somebody else does. i think that is where so many businesses are created, when you are solving a problem that is real for you and therefore real for the consumer. francine: is there a danger that some entrepreneurs look at numbers too much and look for a gap in the market? emma: it is very true. it is very true. and i think that is one way to approach things. for me, i go with my gut. gut instinct tells me a lot. i tend not to go against my gut. i would be lying if i said i did run some numbers. nobody makes 19 sizes of anything without thinking, i reckon i can sell them somewhere along the line. but i definitely think so much more of what i have done throughout my career has been in response to a feeling i have had and then acting on that feeling. francine: were you surprised how many other people felt like you? emma: yeah. [laughter] yeah, honestly, i mean, it is one of those things that, on paper, good american has been such a massive success. if you wind back to day one, $1

million on day one. 9:00 i was a hero. by 11:00, i had no stock left and everyone was like, you have no idea what you are doing, do you? i was like, actually, i do not. in a way, that was my first lesson from what it means to be excellent from the customer experience point of view. because i just started emailing people. i was like, how long do i think people will wait? turns out not that long. certainly not as long as it was going to take me to make stock. [laughter] francine: who were you talking to? sellers or customers? emma: customers -- or both. can you help me get more fabric? will you wait eight weeks for a pair of jeans? somewhere in that, it all worked out. what people respond to is brands that have authenticity, and there is a level of honesty that is needed. i went and said, you know what, we have no idea how popular and how much this was going to chime with customers, and if you can just be patient, we are going to get you something. hands up. we know we messed up. and we don't want to disappoint you. and there is a part of that honesty that really chimed with people. they knew that we were not

feeding the line. it was clearly not written by pr, because i could not afford pr at that point. [laughter] francine: were you signing it "emma?" emma: "emma, x," you know, how i speak to my mum or something. [laughter] francine: coming up, emma grede on her attempt to break one of the last taboos in fashion and how success is making her reassess what it means to be an entrepreneur. ♪

francine: emma grede has made a personal fortune by founding inclusive and progressive clothing companies. good american was the biggest denim launch in history when it made $1 million in sales on its first day. she tells me about her success and the challenges that remain across the industry. has fashion done -- i mean, it hasn't done enough when it comes to inclusivity and diversity, but has it done something in the last five to 10 years? emma: well, no, it's interesting

because fashion, as quick as it is to change, like in the kind of aesthetic, it is very difficult to change a system, right? and i think that comes down to who makes decisions. and the people that make decisions in fashion, don't typically look like me. they aren't typically women all the time. when we look at who is at the helm on the biggest high street players, it tends to be the same type of people. and so i honestly think there is a lot of work to be done. progress has definitely happened. you only have to look at the last, like, new york fashion week, which is the biggest and most commercial, to see that there is so much tokenism around what inclusivity really means. and i think that, especially when it comes to size, we are back where we were 20 or 30 years ago, when you would have one single black model that would walk down the catwalk. now we are in the same situation where, you know, i can't remember the stat, but it is less than 3% of models that came down the catwalk were above a size 12. i mean, a size 12 is like less than average. there is so much work to be done there. it's almost like size is almost the last allowed taboo.

you know, we are allowed to disclude people because of their size. and it is really crazy. francine: i was reading something that people feel like rubbish when they look at this stuff because they don't feel represented, and they feel there is something wrong with them. emma: that is the whole reason i started the brand. you know, you go back seven years ago, i was pregnant with my second child, a girl, and i felt that deeply, like how much time and effort you can spend and waste time. to me, it's like if you take out some of that worry and the strife about how much we think about our looks and instead put our energy into saying i need a pay raise, i think i should be doing something else with my life, part of it was, what happens if you shift and change the paradigm of how people see themselves? and, you know, it is a really trite sentence, but representation really matters. when you see a version of yourself in something, there is a level of acceptance. that is what i wanted to do, just level the playing field and say you know what, we all look different, we all are different,

and that is ok. like, that is not what we should be thinking about. we should be thinking about equal pay. like, there are other things we should be using our time for as women. let's just get an equality going with men. that means throughout the workplace, throughout all the industries. honestly, i feel like the media has such a huge impact on us, not only just fashion media, but the media at large. we need to see better representation everywhere in society. francine: is that why you are doing "dragons' den"? emma: you asked me earlier, did i think about being an entrepreneur? i honestly just never thought about being an entrepreneur. but as i got more successful, i thought a lot about what it means to be an entrepreneur. they talk about being really small at the top. but is not really small at the top. it is minuscule. it is the same people doing the same deals, giving each other money, who all typically went to, like, one of five or six schools. so, to me, because i am on "shark tank" in the u.s., the idea of "dragons' den," that you

can be an entrepreneur with seemingly little background and absolutely no access to funding, and walk on and get a check to do something that means something to you and can mean something for your family, i am, like, why wouldn't you? it wasn't so long ago i was out fundraising. if i can be a small part of somebody's journey that would not usually get the opportunity, to me, it makes so much sense. it is not just about women, not just about women of color. if you didn't have the means or the education to know anything differently than getting up and going to work every day, that doesn't mean you can't have a successful business. i am walking proof of that, right? i left school when i was 16 years old, and i've done pretty well, so to me, it is about leveling the playing field. i love the idea of being seen on tv and people having that idea that they can be successful if they just get an opportunity. francine: is entrepreneurship in the u.k. different to the u.s.? in the u.s., there is almost a badge of honor of trying and failing, of trying again, of

starting again. [laughter] i don't know if there is a stigma in the u.k., that people are less bold. emma: i don't think they are less bold. i think there is more, you know, we are different here. we don't celebrate it in the same way. i find that really difficult to say, because i feel like i am so celebrated, especially where i'm from. like, people in london are so nice to me. like, i turned up at this office and two girls come up to me and they are, like, emma, we love you! high five. i think things are shifting. what i am all about is celebrating people. it doesn't all work out, but that is also part of life. i think we have to be more honest with ourselves about what it takes and how hard it is. francine: it is hard because you need to build a team around you, you need funding. emma: oh, yeah. francine: there is a little bit of luck. what have you found hardest? emma: if i'm really honest, probably the funding piece. because i think without the right background and circles around you, access is really difficult. for me, i raised my first check from my clients, because i had

built a business in fashion media, so i had lots of clients. the only "rich people" i knew were clients of mine that had been paying me retainers. for me, that was the easiest way. i was, like, hi, remember me, would you like to give me $3 million? most of them said "no," but a couple said "yes." so i think just knowing where to go in the beginning. they are the barriers most people face. once you are in it, you know, i think it is so much about the journey, like none of this stuff happens like it does on social media. and i think just knowing that you are on a journey. and i think just knowing that actually, i honestly think the best way to start a business is with no money. you don't need to go out and raise tons of finances, you need to figure out, like, what am i creating, where is my audience, and what am i uniquely good at? because when you figure out what you're good at, you know who else you need around you to make something really work. francine: kris jenner was part of your journey. emma: yes, very much so. francine: how did that shape the entrepreneur you are? emma: i think i have been really

lucky to be surrounded by so many incredible entrepreneurs, starting with my clients, also my husband, being around people like kris, and also just having access and watching some brilliant people as i grow up. you know, just even on the tv. really soaking that up. i am one of those people that can learn from anything. i have read books about being an entrepreneur before i even really knew what one was. so i really am someone that, i will take from any situation that you let me. francine: coming up, emma grede tells me why diversity is a superpower and what she's doing to try and improve access and opportunity. ♪

francine: emma grede is perhaps best known as the founding partner of skims, along with kim kardashian. the shapewear brand was valued at $4 billion last year. i continued the conversation by asking emma about the business and her commitment to supporting diversity and black-owned companies. skims is also huge. did you ever think that -- what do you call it, an underwear shaping company? emma: yes, underwear, solutionwear. you know, skims has grown so unbelievably. and, you know, that is kim kardashian's company, it was her idea from the outset. and i honestly believe that we never thought that it would just be one thing. we always thought about it as being this huge company that would do lots of things well. but, again, that company was

based on just doing one product really, really well. i think that is testament to any great company. we had so much focus in the beginning. we were like here is what we are going to do, we are going to make superior shapewear in every single size and every single color, and it worked out incredibly well. francine: now, also selling to men. when is the right time to, i guess, either grow or go into a slightly different branch? emma: that is so interesting, because in good american, the first time we ever thought of going into another category was because customers asked us to. and i think it is a smart way to think about your growth and your development in a business. you really have to listen. you cannot take that commentary, like just the good things. because your customers will tell you what you need to hear, and they will also tell you what you don't want to hear. it is like a big fat mirror. right? [laughter] that is one of the things with social media that is so exceptionally important in business right now, because it is a reflection of everything you do and a reflection of your customer base. and if you are listening

carefully enough, the data will tell you things. and all you need to do is tune into that. when i think about category expansion, it really is in regards to or in relation to really what customers are asking me for, and we make those decisions based on that. francine: how do you build a team that can also say, no, emma, this is not a great idea? emma: you know what? that is a great question. i think i spend about 25% of my time hiring. i will take speculative meetings even if i do not have a position that's available, because you are only as good as your team. and to do what i do, you have to surround yourself with experts, like people that are really good at what they do. and part of that is being able to stand up to you and you being able to listen. when i think about myself as a leader, i really lead with empathy, because i need people to say to me, that is a bad idea, or based on my experience. because my experience is limited. francine: do you think it is different being a leader in 2024 than it was in 2004?

emma: 100%, because the workforce has changed immeasurably. right? if we think post-pandemic, also the generation that we are dealing with right now, it is entirely different. and you have to create a company that can succeed with the workforce that it has at its disposal. so i think an enormous amount of change. francine: younger people -- emma: i think younger people have a different expectation of their life and work and how those two things split together. and, like it or not, covid changed the working environment forever. and you either adapt or you die. i might have a certain opinion about how i want people to come into a space or into business, but at the end of the day you have to work with where the culture is at. i'm not here to fight the culture. i am, like, ok, it is what it is. how do we work to maximize this? because at the end of the day, we all want the same thing. francine: how do you spot a good entrepreneur on "dragons' den"? how do you decide whether you are all in? emma: i am so personality driven. of course, a good idea is a good

idea and a white space is a white space. but if i meet someone that, like, just does something to me, i feel it immediately. "it's you." francine: like, fire in the belly? how would you describe it? emma: sometimes it is just that mad passion. i could get excited about an origami company if someone comes to me like -- i'm that person. [laughter] i respond to that because that is who i am. i also really respond to the fact that i am like, you know, seeing a bit of yourself, knowing someone has not got another opportunity, i'm like, i will have a crack, i will have a go at you. francine: what is emma grede going to do in five years? [laughter] emma: i don't know. lie down? francine: i don't believe that for one second. [laughter] emma: no, it is true, i will find something else. you know, i am really focused on a lot of my nonprofit work these days. i am the chairwoman of an incredible organization called the fifteen percent pledge, which is really focused on creating some semblance of balance in the world of black-owned businesses, figuring

out how they can show up in retail with more balance. and i honestly believe that any way that i can use my voice, my influence, and the knowledge that i built over this time for good is a good use of my energy. francine: why is it so underfunded still? emma: you know, it is so interesting, because it is about access. i think about this all the time, you know, talent is fairly evenly distributed, opportunity isn't. we need to give people more opportunity, regardless of age, background, all of those things. it is about leveling the playing field. we come back to that same idea, who gets to be an entrepreneur, who gets to make decisions? i believe the more we can open that up, the better it is for everybody. i have proven in my businesses that diversity actually is a superpower. the more people you have at the table, the more customers you can serve. is not just about being holier than thou or giving someone an opportunity that does not deserve it.

it is actually about being able to service as many customers as you can. and the more minds that you have around the table that reflect your customer base, the better. francine: emma grede, thank you so much for joining us today. emma: thank you so much. ♪ it's our son, he is always up in our business. it's the verizon 5g home internet i got us. oh... he used to be a competitive gamer but with the higher lag, he can't keep up with his squad. so now we're his “squad”. what are kevin's plans for the fall? he's going to college. out of state, yeah. -yeah in the fall. change of plans, i've decided to stay local. oh excellent! oh that's great! why would i ever leave this? -aw! we will do anything to get him gaming again. you and kevin need to fix this internet situation. heard my name! i swear to god, kevin! -we told you to wait in the car. everyone in my old squad has xfinity. less lag, better gaming! i'm gonna need to charge you for three people.

>> we are the backbone behind global business, and when they need capital we find it. >> it is one of the world's largest alternative companies.

brookfield owns hydroelectric plants, towers, wind farms, and even cities guidelines. bruce flat has been at the helm for two decades. the veteran chief executive is considered a visionary investor with a golden touch, but for him it is all about patients and finding the right investments. >> what you might think of is risky, to us it is not risky, because we have been in these businesses for a long period of time. i speak to bruce flat about the secrets of his success and outlook for the future. thank you for coming on leaders. brookfield has gone from strength to strength. i would you describe your company.

bruce: we invest in, buy, and own the backbone of global economy. when the water gets delivered to your house, the roads you drive on, the pipeline that brings different things to your community, the telecom towers that transmit your phone, the data center, the real estate that you live in. it's what we own and build. so it's really what drives the economy, and you don't often see our name. because -- francine: is that a good or a bad thing? bruce: you know, it's just because we are behind the scenes. but it's big, with $1 trillion of assets almost. we are behind a lot of the things of the global economy. francine: so being low-key, do you think it gives you strength? bruce: we just try to be quiet and do our thing, and sometimes it helps, and sometimes it doesn't. but i'd say, on balance, it's been good for us. francine: so, you've been in charge for 22 years at brookfield. bruce: yes, it seems like a long time when you say it that way. [laughter] francine: two decades, over two decades. what was the most interesting --

i mean, you've grown the business by so much. what was the most difficult question about how to grow it? bruce: the amazing thing about this business is you're learning every day. and the world's changing all the time. but if i went back 22 years or 32 years, what we invested in then and now are very different. data centers didn't exist then. telecom towers were owned by all the phone companies. so these are things -- the business evolves and the backbone evolves, of the economy, so it's a really interesting business to be in, because you're alws learning. francine: but it's a difficult business, because you don't want to be kodak, right? you don't want to invest in something that goes nowhere. bruce: yeah, look, we're always trying to understand where is the future going and how do we invest with that. and often, it's listening to your counterparties, your clients, your partners, and hearing what they're saying. and what they want to do.

and we're going with them. and that's really -- we're the backbone behind global business. and when they need capital, we fund it. francine: and i think your north star, as it were, is three d's, right? bruce: yeah, look, i'd say over time, we're always trying to figure out, what are the things, what are the themes that are going to drive the world? and today, the digitalization of everything, the decarbonization of everything, and the deglobalization of everything are three, i'd say, mega trend themes that are going to be very dominant in investing for the next -- not the next 2 or 3 years, the next 20 to 30 years. francine: geopolitics is, i guess, taking a turn for the worse. how do you, again, keep that trajectory in saying, look, we will digitize? interest rates are all so over the place, so how do you stay

the course, as it were? bruce: you know, francine, what we try to do is find good countries, go there, and stay there. invest in these things. and whether governments come or go, or interest rates go up a little bit or down a little bit aren't really relevant to these themes in the long-term. you need to make sure you have liquidity, you can fund yourself, and you run good businesses. and that's more important than those general trends. so we're investing for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years. francine: so out of the three d's, is digitalization the hardest because of ai, because we don't really know where we'll end up? bruce: look, i'd say digitalization was happening because of cloud computing and the super tech companies getting into cloud computing. and that was the whole thing going on. the amount of things that go to your ipad every day today, and your phone -- francine: it's crazy. bruce: it's amazing what's happened in the past 20 years. but now, with ai, it's just -- it's almost exponentially taken

it up. and so, that's just another tailwind behind this whole sector. it was very strong before that. and for the last 5, 7, 10 years, we have been pushing into it. but the ai, what's going on with ai is even more dramatic. the digitalization of everything is being driven by data centers. and just the connectivity of everything. but remember, everyone in the world has, in some way, committed to "let's have less carbon." and it's just transitioning the economy. it's not good or bad or green or black, it's just, let's just transition the economy to have less carbon. so we're funding that. and the leaders in that today are the technology companies. so a lot of this is being driven by the technology companies to go green. so we're one of the largest

builders of solar and wind and, now, batteries, to be able to get carbon out of the system. and whereas, years ago, we sell power to the grid. today, our power is mostly sold to global corporates. francine: but -- and again, this is, you have to take a bet on what kind of technology? or do you have to take a bet on just the infrastructure that supports it? bruce: we were doing wind 15, 18, 20 years ago. we were doing solar 10 years ago but very small. and only when the cost curves made solar and wind at the point where they were -- they're the most economic thing -- way to generate electricity. and at the point of that, you know, if they're the most economic way to do it and they have less carbon, they're going to win. and that's why we are decarbonizing today. because in most countries, this is the loowest-cost energy. francine: but geopolitics must get in the way, right? politicians have to be reelected. they're pro-climate change, against climate change.

how do you not waver? bruce: remember, just to make an important point -- in most countries, the lowest cost energy today for electricity is solar or wind. you don't need subsidies. and when you did need subsidies, politics mattered. today, you don't. francine: deglobalization. so this is, what, bringing back onshoring? bruce: all it is is -- i think in covid -- i'd say it's always been happening, and, in covid, people just learned we should have production capacity located in -- many things located where you use them. so increasingly, for example, batteries. for cars, for example. they're being used in america, and, therefore, there are battery plants getting built in america. and there's an enormous need for capital to fund battery plants. there's enormous need for semiconductors. enormous need for manufacturing capacity in various locations around the world. and it's just natural that

everyone doesn't want to have all of their manufacturing capacity in one country or place. let's diversify. so that's just a big theme, which means it's just a lot of capital. francine: you make it sound very easy, but actually, this has gotten you, like, more than $900 billion in assets under management. bruce: you know, it's not easy. but if you have operating people and you keep repeatable -- do repeatable things around the world, it gets easier -- it gets simpler. it's not easy, but it is simpler. and i guess that's why we're in business, right? it -- we have been doing this a long time. and everything's not the same, but it's -- there are a lot of things that rhyme, and, therefore, you can learn and continue to grow over time. francine: coming up, bruce flatt on plans to invest in the financial backbone of the global economy. bruce: we think that's the next -- the next phase of infrastructure investing. ♪

francine: infrastructure has been a bright spot for brookfield. the company is gathering cash for a new fund targeting buyout opportunities in the middle east. and it plans to start a pool that invests in financial infrastructure, such as payment systems, as demand grows. i continue the conversation with bruce flatt. did you know in 2002 that you wanted to be at $900 billion asset under management? or $1 trillion? bruce: we're just trying to make money for our clients in a thoughtful way. and we've done that for a long period of time. and the reason why we are at the scale we are is because we've been thoughtful with their money, and we've earned them a good return, and we've not taken a lot of risk. and if you can do that over long periods of time, you can compound their wealth, investment wealth to very large sums of money.

and that's what's important for these sovereign institutional pension investors. because they have very long durations. they need these type of assets to earn them returns over the longer term. francine: you have also gotten into credit. how much are you expecting that to grow? bruce: what has happened with regulations in the banking system is they just -- it's pushed out credit off the balance sheets at the banks, and the right place where that is being funded from is institutional investors. and therefore, investors like ourselves are continuing to grow our businesses where we're funding these type of products. but it's not -- our business is not in competition with the banks. it's actually in partnership with the banks. and as a result of that, i'd say it's facilitating the growth of the global financial markets as opposed to something that often people talk about it, that we're

in the wrong time in the cycle or whatever it is. this is going to be growing and happening for a long period of time. francine: so how big do you expect that to be? bruce: it's going to get big. because remember, this is where most of the capital is in the world, is in sovereign institutional funds, these -- and pensions. these funds used to be $20 billion and $30 billion. today, they're $300 billion, $500 billion, $1 trillion, $1.5 trillion. these are large, large sums of money. they need to put it to work, and therefore, it's going to continue to grow for a long period of time. francine: are you focused -- when you look at regions, is it mainly the gcc countries? bruce: we invest for people in the -- for the long term, try to earn them good returns by taking moderate risk. and if we can do that, it's all around the world. for you, what you want to do in your own portfolio is take moderate risk and earn a good return. francine: but, bruce, what's moderate risk? again, you make it sound easy, but actually, this is a know-how. so do you look into -- you know, you're also quite acquisitive.

bruce: yeah. look, i'd say we -- in the businesses that we are in, we have more information than most people about what we do. therefore, what you might think of as risky, to us, it's not risky, because we've been in this business for, these businesses for a long period of time. we have the information of every -- we know, we know what's getting shipped across the ocean in our containers. we know what's getting booked into the ports in different countries. we know what's traveling on the roads. we know how many people are going into a shopping mall. we know all of those things. and that just informs us. so we have, i'd say, better information to base our decisions than most people. and -- but we're always -- you know, we're trying to take -- so we're trying to lower the risks by doing that. of course, investing, investing's tough. it's not easy. and therefore, you're always taking some form of risk. francine: how do you choose what company to buy?

bruce: you know, thoughtful analysis about what's in the business. proper pricing. when things are up a lot, just wait. and most people invest at the wrong time because they get excited about what the markets are telling them about a business. and therefore, that's usually when we're not investing. and just wait for the time when it'll be a little better to invest. francine: do you expect -- i think you've spoken in the past about a possible big acquisition that would be transformational for brookfield. bruce: you know, i would say we're always in the -- we're always looking for additions to the business. in 2018, we brought oaktree into our fold, and we have a partnership with the management there. that's been transformative to our credit business. and we're always looking for things like that to continue to build the business and just grow over time. and -- but if not, we just keep

plugging away every day. francine: so this is more partnerships than outright acquisitions, like altera. i mean, this is a different kind of carbon fund. bruce: our transition business, we started -- we split off from our main infrastructure business 4.5, 4 or 5 years ago. we raised a large first time fund. we just did the first close of our second fund for $10 billion. and then we started an emerging markets business. so i'd say that's just a split off. this is just -- all we're trying to do is we informed ourself about transition, we built a team over a long period of time. now, our -- some people said to us, can you solve emerging markets as opposed to just developed markets? francine: right. bruce: we didn't feel it appropriate to put the two in the same fund, so we're creating another fund to do that. and some of our clients will

come along with us, and we're quite excited about it. francine: is that a template for possible future kind of spinoffs? bruce: you know, we have -- in our private equity business, we have a buyout sponsor business. but we're also doing -- we're just in the midst of creating a strategy for the middle east, which will be a separate pool of money. we're creating a strategy for financial infrastructure. because we think that's the next -- the next phase of infrastructure investing is in the financial backbone of the global economy. and a lot of the world has been pushing towards financial infrastructure, and it's not appropriate for our infrastructure fund. but -- so we're creating a new pool of money to do that. and so we -- there's a fine line between having too many things and making sure your clients, who want to be invested with you in that type of area, have a pool to be able to do it with

us. francine: bruce, when you look at infrastructure, there's -- consolidation was really the, i guess, the name for the last six months. does that make your job easier or tougher? bruce: look, we were the maybe -- i'm going to say one of the pioneers of infrastructure -- francine: the original, you want to say. [laughter] bruce: well, going into institutional clients. we were the original, because we were in industrial businesses ourselves, and how we got into the infrastructure business is we decided we didn't like the up and down of many of the industrial businesses we had and mining businesses. but we really liked the backbone infrastructure that was in these businesses. and 20 years ago, we started doing it for institutional clients. at that time, nobody would listen to us, and nobody would invest with us. so it's quite -- it's great that this has become mainstream today. the good news, i'd say we're still a leader in it. we have very large funds, in

fact, the largest in the world. and therefore, we just continue to try to differentiate our investment strategies, and with size, scale, operating people, and the ability just to grow in the places we are. so i think we're -- do others getting stronger help us? probably not. but it doesn't really bother us. and i think there's a place for us to continue to grow in business. francine: coming up, why bruce flatt has faith in the future of commercial real estate. bruce: there's opportunity coming. and if you know what you're doing, you can pick the right assets. there's a great opportunity here. ♪

francine: from the united states to europe, plunging office valuations are spooking investors, raising fears about a broader contagion. as one of the world's biggest owners of commercial real estate, brookfield is at the center of the global industry shakeout. but the chief executive bruce flatt, who made his name in real estate, sees opportunities where others see risks. we continue the conversation. commercial real estate. so a lot of people say, well, this is not the right time. we're going to see a shakeout in commercial real estate. there are opportunities that you see? bruce: i think, look, the next

-- the next story is that interest rates are coming down. fundamentals are pretty good in a lot of commercial real estate. look, of course, there are some -- there's a tale of some investors that had properties that, for this environment, the fundamentals either don't support it, or the financing they have can't be supported, and therefore, those have to get dealt with. so that's a tale that's getting dealt with within the financial system. the fundamentals are actually getting better. interest rates are coming down, which means that values are going to improve. but that tale, there's opportunity coming. and if you know what you're doing, you can pick the right assets. there's a great opportunity here. and we've done this for a long period of time, and we've seen these cycles before. real estate's cyclical. and you can make a lot of money when you pick the inflection point of markets. and i remember it in the early

1990's. i remembered it in the early 2000's. i remembered it in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012. there are points when -- when there's an inflection point, and we're at one of those inflection points today. francine: so you're buying? bruce: we are buying. our opportunistic fund, we just bought some -- we foreclosed on some loans for multifamily in the u.s. recently. we're very excited about that, and we continue to look at a bunch of things. francine: do you see anything in europe? bruce: absolutely. i think there'll be -- you know, the biggest, most liquid markets are in the united states. that doesn't mean, therefore, because they're the most liquid, you always find the most opportunities. but europe, there's less capital, and therefore, there will be opportunities here as well. francine: but how do you make a difference between the ones that, you know, will get better and the ones that actually you

should forget? bruce: you know, i'd just say it depends on the types of real estate. you just need to -- quality wins, always. it always has. it always will. francine: what do you spend most of your time thinking about? bruce: you know, i, personally, i spend my time sometimes helping our teams with business. sometimes -- i'd say a third of that, a third with clients, helping them understand what we're doing, where we're going. and a third is just internal people -- running the organization, i'll call it. and with that, we spend an enormous amount of time building our people and transitioning our people within all of our businesses. and it's just a -- it's not something that happens once. it's happening all the time. and our whole goal is, our culture of our place is bring people up that are very young, give them opportunities that they'd never get anywhere else. grow them throughout the

organization. make sure they're entrepreneurial, hard-working, and want to win. and if you have that, you have a great culture in a company. and that's sort of where we spend all of -- a huge amount of our time, trying to build within the organization. francine: but bring them up to test them or just to make them learn? bruce: look, if we can bring them up to take on roles. and eventually -- eventually, i will become an executive chairman. and i'll still be around. but somebody else is going to run the place. francine: will you ever retire? bruce: you know, i will become an executive chairman at some point in time. and what that means is, i'm here to help mentor young people, help with business development, look after clients that can be helpful to the overall organization. but at some point in time -- this is a hard business. we're in 30 countries. we have lots of people. it's better to have younger

people grow the business. i took over at 30 -- in my early 30's. and -- and i'm probably slower today than i was then. not that i've slowed down, but i'm slower today. and at some point in time, it's the right thing just to bring -- to give the people those roles. and so, we're continually evolving the organization in that way. francine: but are you going anywhere anytime soon? bruce: no. [laughter] francine: bruce, is this the biggest mistake, actually, for politicians and chief executives, is staying on for too long? or is it, you know, leadership in 2024 different to what it was in the early 2000's? bruce: you know, i think it all depends on the organization. some organizations fit one way, some fit another. i'm not suggesting our culture is what works for everybody else. but we have a culture where our elders stay around for long periods of time to help. and our young people get opportunities which they wouldn't otherwise get if the

elders stayed in place in a full-time role. and that's what we do. but maybe it doesn't work for everyone, and that's ok. francine: bruce flatt, thank you so much for joining us today. ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ the winter escapes sale is now on. visit sandals.com or call 1-800-sandals.

emma: i don't want my daughters wasting time thinking about how much they weigh, what they look like. and i think that fashion has done a terrible job of reinforcing a really unrealistic beauty idea. francine: the entrepreneur who is driving a multibillion-dollar

retail empire while trying to redefine the world of fashion. british businesswoman emma grede has partnered with one of the most famous families in hollywood. she is chief executive and cofounder of the inclusive fashion brand “good american,” which she launched in 2016 with khloe kardashian. she is also the founding partner of shapewear label “skims,” alongside khloe's sister, kim. emma: as a young, black female entrepreneur, the only thing that i could do was what i knew from my experience, and the honest truth is i did not set out to create a company that was deeply rooted in the principles of inclusivity and diversity. i set out to make a company that was right for me. francine: in this episode of "leaders with lacqua," i speak to emma grede about her rise to the top, how she measures success, and why diversity remains elusive in the world of fashion. emma grede, thank you so much for joining us on bloomberg. emma: thank you so much for having me. francine: this is so exciting.

i mean, you represent so much for so many people. everything you touch, all the businesses you touch turn into gold. did you ever think that you would be such a success? emma: no. and that is mostly because most of the businesses that i touched early in the days didn't turn to gold. [laughter] i love this idea of like, overnight success and i feel i would love to continue to perpetuate that myth, but i have just done a lot, and there has been a lot of trial and error along the way. and i feel like i have probably done every job imaginable, from having a paper route when i was 12, to working in a deli, to working in shops, to starting things that were less successful, to starting things that had medium success. i feel like there has been a long journey and i am really thankful that now i am 41 years old and i am starting to see this type of success, which is really great. francine: you were always starting the journey, you always wanted to succeed. is that what actually makes your success? emma: you know, i think so. i also think, you know, there is an element of luck in any of these things, right? but then when you kind of take

apart what luck means, i really believe that when opportunity meets preparation -- you know, i was always prepared, and when my opportunity came along i was ready to work for it. then there is that old adage of like, a lot of hard work. and i have really, really put the time in, i think. francine: did you always want to be an entrepreneur? emma: no. no, i never knew what an entrepreneur was. if you would have asked me when i was a kid -- i mean, i came from east london and i did not know anyone who had their own business. everyone that i knew went to work to pay their bills with usually very little joy in it. so even the idea of doing something that felt purposeful or meaningful or something you enjoyed really was not part of my understanding. i tried really hard to get close to what it is that i love, which is the fashion business. but i didn't ever, ever think about starting my own thing. i think it actually came out of a necessity. i was like, who is going to employ me and pay me what i think i deserve? and i left a company because i was, like, they are just not paying me properly, so i will have to just pay myself! [laughter] francine: age 24. emma: 24.

francine: and it was the determination of actually making something. emma: yeah. do you know what it was? i felt like i was adding a lot of value. and i think so many people through their careers have this feeling, right? i am adding a lot of value and i'm not being renumerated for what i bring to the table. and that feeling became so strong in me, but what do you do? at 24, you don't really have that many options. and so, i did what a lot of people do. i went to a company and tried to do my best at the position that i was given. and thankfully somebody saw that and decided, ok, maybe we'll set this girl up on her own. but i talked to so many, either young people that i employ or people that are trying to get noticed. and i honestly think that is such amazingly good advice. because no one is ever going to look at you to do the next thing unless you are excelling where you are today. and so, sometimes just buckling down and doing the absolute best job at wherever you are is the best way to get ahead. francine: but then actually making the step of leaving and setting something up on your own, you have to be brave and it is not always easy. emma: no, it wasn't always easy.

especially, i remember the first time i got a little bit of backing and they said you are going to be in charge of your own p&l. and i thought, fantastic. i wrote it down and went home and googled it. "what is p&l?" [laughter] sometimes naivety is best for any entrepreneur. i didn't know what i didn't know, and therefore i had to go for it and learn fast. and fail fast. and i think i have done -- throughout my career i haven't made the best choices every time, but i think part of being a good entrepreneur is knowing when things are not going right and knowing what you don't know. and i have surrounded myself with the right people, continuously. francine: so what is the biggest mistake that you have learned from? emma: you know, i think the biggest mistake was probably when i had my first agency, itb. and i was killing it in london. and so there was this idea that the company was completely exportable. and i went to the u.s., opened an office in new york, that office went really well. and then i opened in l.a. and i failed miserably. underinvested, did not bring the right people in, just thought whatever i was doing would

translate, and it didn't. and i learned that the hard way by starting something, dragging people there, and having to close it. there is nothing like a bit of embarrassment to humble the soul. i was like, you know. [laughter] packed everything up. literally had to pack my own office back up. so that was a fantastic learning. but, again, i never let it break my spirit. i really, truly took those learnings. and when i started my second company in l.a., i was like, okay, this is where i need to do something different. and so i literally packed up my family and went and moved to l.a. and knew that if i was going to do something that was going to be successful, i needed to do it myself, i needed to be in the country, and i needed to give it my absolute all. francine: so is that also giving time to understand the market? was it that it was difficult to do it from not being in the city? emma: yeah, being in-country, being part of the fabric of that culture has been really important, especially for my business, good american, that really is about what is happening at the moment. like, where are we in society as

women, where is fashion? and i think that has been really, really important to be, like, where it is all happening. francine: that is a really bold move, actually, selling denim to americans. [laughter] emma: it really was. nobody needs more blue jeans, like, let's be honest. i actually doubted myself when we started. but, again, coming to a business with mission and purpose at the heart of what we do is what sets us apart. and so i think there are so many brands. but how do consumers make choices these days? and right now, we make our choices based on what we believe in, what we feel is important, what we want our children to see. and i am a mother of four. and so i know only too well that i don't want my daughters wasting time thinking about how much they weigh, what they look like. and i think that fashion has done a terrible job of reinforcing a really unrealistic beauty ideal. and so with good american, the whole premise of the brand was to say, we are going to make clothes for all women, we are going to let women make their choices, and hopefully we will take some of that pain out of what it means to be left out of the conversation or not represented in fashion.

and we have done that pretty well, i think. francine: so emma, you have this idea, right, of inclusivity, of making women feel good. who do you talk about it with first? emma: funnily enough, my husband. [laughter] you know, because i think that we are both entrepreneurs. and so it is natural for me to bat any idea backwards and forwards with him. but i have worked for years in the fashion business. and so, i have been part of the problem. right? it is like i have seen firsthand how some fashion businesses make women feel. and i think there is one thing, you know, being very vocal and being an instagram activist and talking about something, there is a difference in putting your mouth -- putting your money where your mouth is and really trying to do something about the problem. and that is what i did with that business. it was about, how do i take everything that i know and i have learned and actually do the opposite? and i think that as a young, black female entrepreneur, the only thing i could do was what i know from my experience. and the honest truth is i did not set out to create a company that was deeply rooted in principles of inclusivity and diversity.

i set out to make a company that was right for me and my friends, and i knew that if i had a problem, chances are somebody else does. and i think that is where so many businesses are created, when you are solving a problem that is real for you, and therefore real for the consumer. francine: is there a danger that some entrepreneurs look at numbers too much and look for a gap in the market? emma: it is very true. it is very true. and i think that is one way to approach things. and there is a certain sense. but for me, i go with my gut. and gut instinct tells me a lot. and i tend not to go against my gut. now, i would be lying if i said i didn't run some numbers and feel like there was commercial opportunity here, right? nobody makes 19 sizes of anything without thinking, i reckon i can sell them somewhere along the line. but i definitely think so much more of what i have done throughout my career has been in response to a feeling that i have had, and then acting on that feeling. francine: were you surprised at how many other people felt like you? emma: yeah. [laughter] francine: were you? emma: yeah. honestly, i mean, it is one of those things that, on paper,

good american has been such a massive success. but if you wind back to day one, everyone is like, you sold $1 million on day one. the truth is, 9:00, i was a hero. by 11:00, i had no stock left and everyone was like, you have no idea what you are doing, do you? i was like, actually, i don't. in a way, that was my first lesson in what it means to be excellent, from a customer experience point of view. because i just started emailing people. and i was like, how long do i think people will wait? turns out not that long. certainly not as long as it was going to take me to make stock. [laughter] francine: who were you talking to? sellers or customers? emma: both, actually. i was, like, can you help me get more fabric? will you wait eight weeks for a pair of jeans? and somewhere in that, it all kind of worked out. but i think, again, what people respond to is brands that have authenticity, and there is a level of honesty that is needed. and i went and said, you know what, we had no idea how popular and how much this was going to chime with customers, and if you can just be patient, we are going to get you something. hands up. we know we messed up. and we don't want to disappoint you. and there is a part of that honesty that actually, really chimed with people.

they knew that we were not feeding them a line. it was clearly not written by pr, because i could not afford pr at that point. [laughter] francine: were you signing it "emma?" emma: yeah! emma, x, you know, how i'd speak to my mum or something. [laughter] francine: coming up, emma grede on her attempts to break one of the last taboos in fashion, and how success is making her reassess what it means to be an entrepreneur. ♪

francine: emma grede has made a personal fortune by founding inclusive and progressive clothing companies. good american was the biggest denim launch in history when it made $1 million in sales on its first day. she tells me about her success and the challenges that remain across the industry. has fashion done -- i mean, it hasn't done enough when it comes to inclusivity and diversity, but has it done something in the last five to 10 years? emma: well you know, it's interesting, because fashion, as quick as it is to change, like

in the kind of aesthetic, it is very difficult to change a system, right? and i think that that comes down to who makes decisions. and the people that make decisions in fashion don't typically look like me. they aren't typically women all the time. when we look at who is at the helm of the biggest high street players, it tends to be the same type of people. and so, i honestly think there is a lot of work to be done. progress has definitely happened. but you only have to look at the last new york fashion week, which is the biggest and the most commercial, to see that there so much tokenism around what inclusivity really means. and i think that, especially when it comes to size, we are back where we were 20 or 30 years ago when you would have one single black model that would walk down the catwalk. now we are in that same situation where, i can't remember the stat, but i think it was less than 3% of models that came down the catwalk were above a size 12. i mean, a size 12 is, like, less than average. and so there is just so much work to be done there. it's almost like size is almost

the last allowed taboo. you know? we are allowed to disclude people because of their size. and it's really crazy. francine: i was reading something saying people feel like rubbish when they look at all of this stuff because they don't feel represented, and they feel there is something wrong with them. emma: yeah, and that is the whole reason i started the brand. because, you know, if you go back seven years ago, i was pregnant with my second child, a girl, and i really felt that deeply. like, how much time and effort you can spend, and waste time. and to me, it's like, if you take out some of that worry and the strife around how much we think about our looks and instead put our energy into saying, i need a pay raise, i think i should be doing something else with my life -- like, part of it was really like, what happens if you shift and change the paradigm of how people see themselves? and, you know, it is a really trite sentence, but representation really matters. when you see a version of yourself in something, there is a level of acceptance. and that is what i wanted to do,

just level the playing field and say, you know what, we all look different, we all are different, and that is ok. like, that is not what we should be thinking about. we should be thinking about, like, equal pay. like, there are other things that we should use our time for as women. let's just get an equality going with men. and that means throughout the workplace, throughout all of the industries. and honestly, i feel like the media has such a huge impact on us, and i don't mean only just fashion media, i mean the media at large. and so we need to see better representation everywhere in society. francine: is that why you are doing “dragon's den?” emma: well, you know what? it is so interesting. you asked me earlier, did i think about being an entrepreneur? i honestly just never thought about being an entrepreneur. but as i have got more successful, i thought a lot about what it means to be an entrepreneur. because they talk about it being really small at the top. but it is not really small at the top. it is minuscule. it is the same people doing the same deals, giving each other money, who all typically went to one of five or six schools. and so for me, because i am on “shark tank” in the u.s., and

the idea of “dragons' den,” that you can be an entrepreneur with seemingly very little background and absolutely no access to funding, and walk on and get a check to start -- to do something that means something to you and can mean something for your family, i am, like, why wouldn't you? it wasn't so long ago that i was out fundraising. and so i am just like, if i can be a small part of somebody's journey that would not usually get the opportunity, to me, it just makes so much sense. and it is not just about women. not just about women of color. it is like, if you didn't have the means or the education to know anything differently than getting up and going to work every day, that doesn't mean to say you can't have a successful business. i am like, walking proof of that, right? like, i left school when i was 16 years old and i have done pretty well. so to me, it is about leveling the playing field. and i love the idea of that being seen on tv and people having that idea that they can be successful if they just get an opportunity. francine: emma, is entrepreneurship in the u.k.

different to the u.s.? in the u.s. there is almost a badge of honor of trying and failing, of trying again, of starting again. [laughter] i don't know if there is a stigma in the u.k., but people are less bold. emma: you know, i don't think they are less bold. i think that there is more -- you know, we are different here. we don't celebrate it in the same way. and i find that really difficult to say, because i feel like i am so celebrated. especially where i'm from. like, people in london are so nice to me. like, i turned up in this office and two girls come up to me and they're, like, emma, we love you! high five. so i think things are shifting. what i am all about is celebrating people. and listen, it doesn't all work out, but that is also part of life. and i think that we have to be a little more honest with ourselves about what it takes and how hard it is. francine: it is hard because you need to build team around you, you need funding. emma: oh, yeah. francine: there is a little bit of luck. what have you found hardest? emma: if i am really honest, probably the funding piece. because i think without the right background and circles around you, access is really difficult. you know, for me, i raised my first check from my clients, because i had built a business

in fashion media. and so i had lots of clients. so the only quote-unquote "rich people" i knew were clients of mine that had been paying me retainers. and so that was, for me, the easiest way. i was, like, hi, remember me, would you like to give me $3 million? most of them said no, but a couple said yes. so i think just knowing where to go in the beginning. and they are the barriers that most people face. but once you are in it, i think it is all so much about the journey. like, none of this stuff happens like it does on social media. and i think just knowing that you are on a journey. and actually, i honestly think the best way to start a business is with no money. you don't need to go out and raise tons of finances, you need to figure out, like, what am i creating, where is my audience, and what am i uniquely good at? because when you figure out what you're good at, you know who else you need around you to make something really work. francine: kris jenner was part of your journey. emma: yes, very much so. francine: i mean, how did that kind of shape the entrepreneur

you are? emma: well, you know, i think that i have been really lucky to be surrounded by so many incredible entrepreneurs, starting with my clients, also my husband, being around people like kris, and also just having access and listening and watching some brilliant people as i grew up. just even on the tv. you know, really soaking that up. and i am one of those people that can learn from anything. you know, i have read books about being an entrepreneur before i even knew what one was. so i really am someone that will take from any situation that you let me. francine: coming up, emma grede tells me why diversity is a superpower, and what she's doing to try and improve access and opportunity. ♪

francine: emma grede is perhaps best known as the founding partner of skims, along with kim kardashian. the shapewear brand was valued at $4 billion last year. i continued the conversation by asking emma about the business and her commitment to supporting diversity and black-owned companies. skims is also huge. did you ever think that an underwear -- what do you call it, an underwear shaping company? emma: yes. i mean, we make underwear, solutionwear. you know, skims has grown so unbelievably. and, you know, that is kim kardashian's company. it was her idea from the outset. and i honestly believe that we never thought that it would just be one thing. you know? we always thought about it as being this huge company that

would do lots of things well. but, again, that company was based on just doing one product really, really well. and i think that is testament to any great company. we had so much focus in the beginning. we were like, here is what we are going to do. we are going to make superior shapewear in every single size, in every single color. and it worked out incredibly well. francine: and now also selling to men. when is the right time to, i guess, either grow or go into a slightly different branch? emma: it is so interesting, because in good american, the first time we ever thought of going into another category was because customers asked us to. and i think it is a really smart way to think about your growth and your development in a business. like, you really have to listen. and you can't take that commentary, like, just the good things. because your customers will tell you what you need to hear, they will also tell you what you don't want to hear. and it is like a big fat mirror. i feel like that is one of the things with social media that is so exceptionally important in business right now, because it is just a reflection of everything you are doing, a

reflection of your consumer base. and if you are listening carefully enough, the data will tell you things. and all you need to do is tune into that. and so when i think about category expansion, it really is in regards to, or in relation to really what customers are asking me for. and we make those decisions based on that. francine: how do you build a team that can also say, no, emma, this is not a great idea? emma: you know what, that is a great question. i think i spend about 25% of my time hiring. and i will take speculative meetings even if i don't have a position that is available, because you are only as good as your team. and to do what i do, you have to surround yourself with experts, people that are really good at what they do. and part of that is being able to stand up to you and you being able to listen. and so, when i think about myself as a leader, i really lead with empathy because i need people to be able to say to me, that's a bad idea, or based on my experience. because my experience is limited. francine: do you think it is different being a leader in 2024

than it was in 2004? emma: 100%, because the workforce has changed immeasurably. right? if we think post-pandemic, also the generation that we are dealing with right now, it is entirely different. and you have to create a company that can succeed with the workforce that it has at its disposal. and so i think there's been enormous amounts of change. francine: what do you mean, younger? emma: yeah, i think younger people have a different expectation of their life and their work and how those two things split together. and, like it or not, covid changed the working environment forever. and you either adapt or you die. i might have a certain opinion about how i want people to come into a space, into a business, but at the end of the day you have got to work with where the culture is at. and i am not here to fight the culture. i am, like, ok, it is what it is. how do we work to maximize this? because at the end of the day, we all want the same thing. francine: how do you spot a good entrepreneur? like on “dragons' den?” how do you decide whether you are all in?

emma: you know, i am so personality-driven. of course, a good idea is a good idea and a white space is a white space. but if i meet someone that, just, like, does something to me, like, i feel it immediately. like, it is you. francine: like, fire in the belly? how would you describe it? emma: sometimes it is just that mad passion. like, i could get excited about an origami company if somebody comes to me and they are like - [laughter] i'm that person. and i respond to that because that is who i am. but i also really respond to the fact that i am, you know, sometimes seeing a little bit of yourself, knowing that someone has not got another opportunity or a chance, i'm like, i will have a crack, i will have a go at you. francine: what is emma grede going to do in five years? [laughter] emma: i don't know. lie down? [laughter] take a break? francine: i don't believe that for one second. emma: no, it is true, i will find something else. you know, i am really focused on a lot of my nonprofit work these days. i am the chairwoman of an incredible organization called the fifteen percent pledge, which is really focused on creating some semblance of balance in, you know, the world

of black-owned businesses, figuring out how they can show up in retail with more balance. and i honestly believe that, you know, any way that i can use my voice, use my influence, and use the knowledge that i built over this time for good is a good use of my energy. francine: why is it so underfunded still? emma: you know, it is so interesting, because it is about access. you know, i think about this all the time. you know, talent is fairly evenly distributed. opportunity isn't. and what we need is to give more people opportunity. regardless of education, race, background, age, all those things. and so it is about leveling the playing field. we come back to that same idea, who gets to be an entrepreneur, who gets to make decisions? and so i really believe the more we can open that up, the better it is for everybody. and i have proven in my businesses that diversity actually is a superpower. the more people you have at the table, the more customers you can serve. it's just good business. it's not about being holier than thou or giving somebody an opportunity that does not deserve it. it's actually about being able

to service as many customers as you can. and the more minds that you have around the table that reflect your customer base, the better. francine: emma grede, thank you so much for joining us today. emma: thank you so much. ♪

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