david: this is my kitchen table and also my filing system. over much of the past three decades i've been an investor. the highest calling of mankind i've often thought was private equity. then i started interviewing.

i what you so i know how to interview. i've learned how leaders make it to the top. >> he said 250, i did not negotiate with him or do due diligence. david: i have something i would like to sell you. you don't feel envious being only the second richest man, right? the library congress is the largest library in the world, led by the librarian of congress, unique because she's the first woman to be library congress, first black woman to be librarian of congress. i sat down with her. why does congress need a library, can't they use the regular library? dr. hayden: congress, think about this, in 1800, a new nation, a new legislative body,

there was the thought they needed some reference books and they were mainly law books, the first books purchased, about 600 books and that's how the library of congress started. think of the name, the library of congress. it is a reference and research tool for congress and they knew that. they have parliamentary libraries and the knew those types of things. they knew as legislators they might have to refer. david: now in 2024, the library of congress is much bigger than it was when it was first started in 1800 is it properly named the library of congress now? isn't it more than just a library for congressmen and women? dr. hayden: it has involved. -- evolved. it has evolved into not only a reference tool for congress, and there are still about 500 experts in just about every

field dedicated to being researchers and nonpartisan experts for congress. that is still there. but the library has expanded to serve the people congress serves. now it is the largest library in the world with 178 million items. it serves everyone. the only people who can actually check out materials in the traditional sense are members of congress and staff members. but members of the public, the general public, can come into the library of congress facilities and use materials on-site. david: let's suppose i'm a person who wants to use library of congress for research and i need some books i want to read at home, i canoed -- i cannot do that as a regular person. dr. hayden: you cannot do that, but what many public libraries and university libraries do

throughout the united states and even some international facilities, the library of congress will loan materials to another library and a patron could look at the materials they are. they could not take them home but they could look at them in their own library. david: what does the librarian of congress actually do? dr. hayden: the librarian of congress is basically the ceo of the entire enterprise. that includes the u.s. copyright office, the library of congress in 1870 became the administrative operation and really the main manager of the u.s. copyright system. that's also how the library collection group. when you register for copyright, whatever it is, you are required to deposit two copies of whatever it is. that could be wallpaper, video

games, books. when the library of congress became the administrator of the copyright system, they were able to then select from deposits and the collection really grew. david: we had a library of congress that started in 1800. how many women have been librarians of congress before you? dr. hayden: i am the first female librarian of congress since 1802. the library itself was established, law books in 1800, and in 1802, there was a thought, we need somebody to manage this, that's when the first librarian of congress was appointed. david: how many african-americans have been librarian of congress before you? dr. hayden: that's also me, i am a two-fer. there have not been any people of color females. it's interesting, one of the most unusual parts of me being

in the position is the fact that i'm a female because librarianship is one of what they call the four feminized professions where 85% to 90% of the people who work in the institution are female but the top management doesn't reflect that. david: is there a library bigger than the library of congress anywhere in the world, does any country have a bigger collection of books? dr. hayden: we just been designated in the guinness book of world records as the longest -- largest library in the world and our closest competitor, and it's really not competition, is the british library, the national library of great britain. we have a friendly kind of rivalry. in terms of number of items, we are the largest. david: you have more than books, you have books, comic books, maps, manuscripts. dr. hayden: photographs, film,

any format. david: today, almost everything is digitized so why do we need libraries since we can go on a computer and get everything? why not just digitize the books and say thank you? dr. hayden: so many items have not been digitized and might not ever be digitized. when you think about the diaries of theodore roosevelt, the library of congress has the papers of 23 presidents from george washington to coolidge. there are still analog materials that could be digitized but will be in analog form. and books, even though you can get things in digital form, there are still people and still will be an appetite for a physical item. but the future is definitely

digital so migraines like the lively of congress, british library, all libraries, or making sure they have the infrastructure to be able to get materials that are born digital. we have quite a bit of materials coming in. they never are in analog form, they are coming straight in digital form and we are able to circulate them. david: as we talk now, what do you think you've done in your eight years or so to open up the library to the average citizen more than before. specifically with respect to children, what have you done? dr. hayden: to be a cardmember, to use the 18 reading rooms -- it is a card, it is a readers card to give you access to the materials, to say you are responsible, even though you can't check them out, it's to have a record of who is coming in to do that. what we've done is expand the

offerings we have for young people. we have a young people's ambassador for literature, we have literacy programs and you've been involved in giving awards to literacy groups that help young people learn how to read. the offerings we have for young people has expanded greatly. david: literacy is a big problem in the united states, i think 14% of adults are functionally illiterate, which means they can't read past fourth grade level. there's nothing congress can do to completely solve the problem but are you surprised at how any people still cannot read in this country and how many people have another problem called illiterate -- aliteracy, which means they can read but choose not. dr. hayden: it's a challenge in the digital age, people are reading on tablets so we count that as reading. if you have an e-book, you are

reading the book. i'm often asked if i'm listing to a book does that count? there is a concern that the amount of reading, text, is diminishing that people are reading. and how do work to other organizations? we connect to other libraries, school libraries, and work with them. it is an opportunity for us to let people know and make reading more interesting. david: literacy is a challenge for sure but elaborate around the country, are they being used more and more because people can afford to buy books or because it is a good place to gather where it is quiet? why do we have these thousands of libraries anymore when people are often doing things digitally and don't need to go to a physical place to get a book? dr. hayden: people are using

public libraries as opportunity centers. they use high-speed computers to fill out job applications, to interact with government. they are using libraries as places to register to vote. all types of things. libraries are offering collections beyond books. so libraries are responding to communities in so many ways. ♪

david: let's talk a bit about your background and how you became a librarian. where were you born? dr. hayden: on the campus of florida a&m university. historically black college in tallahassee, florida. david: were your parents teachers there? dr. hayden: yes, my father had

been recruited to start the strings department at the school. he was a classically trained violinist. my mom was a pianist. she was his accompany asked many times -- accompanist many times. they went to florida, they'd never been to a historical black college. they were from illinois. it was a totally different experience for them. david: let me ask how you got out of florida because you were born and raised there, but where did you go to college? dr. hayden: there was a little byway. my dad didn't buy the jazz bug -- got bitten by the jazz bug.

he went to new york. i ended up going to high school and then college in chicago. david: you went to college where? dr. hayden: roosevelt university and university of chicago. david: you got a phd in library sciences at the university of chicago. are there many library schools anymore? the one at the university of chicago no longer exists, are there still library schools around the united states? dr. hayden: there are about 56 but now they are mainly called information science schools, schools of information science or information management. the university of chicago school closed and the columbia university closed because their programs were deemed a little too academic. david: after you got your phd from the university of chicago in library sciences, what did you do? dr. hayden: i went off to teach at the library school at the

university of pittsburgh and that school was really before it's time. the dean there really wanted to make sure there was a murder with information science, computer science. she brought in technology companies. it was an innovative library school. david: did you go back to chicago from there? dr. hayden: i went back because one of my students i had sent off with all this knowledge is power and work in libraries and help people, he came back and said i'm going to get a phd and i want to teach and i said you were doing so well i thought at this big urban library and he said you told me to bring my ideas up and i saw the director of the library and i went up to him and i was trying to tell him some of the things i was

interested in, and he blew me off. i thought ok. i'm coming back to academia. david: so you joined? dr. hayden: the chicago public library. david: you rose up to be? dr. hayden: the chief librarian. i also did a stint at the museum of science and industry. that was really helpful because i worked more with the curators but also opening up a public library in a museum. david: here in chicago and you met two people, did they borrow a lot of books, barack and michelle obama? do they have overdue fines? dr. hayden: we could never tell if they did that what happened when i went back, the person that was the administrator for the city of chicago that had in her portfolio the public library was michelle robinson. i got to know her because she

was responsible, a deputy mayor type of situation. then she got engaged to this gentleman who had an interesting name and i was recruited to head up the baltimore library. that july, i missed the wedding. david: whatever happened to him? dr. hayden: he did well. it was so interesting, years later i would be sitting almost like this in the oval office being interviewed by the president of the united states because that is the person who nominates the library enough congress. -- librarian of congress. david: let's talk about baltimore, you went to my hometown of baltimore and became head librarian of the system for 22 years. then the president of the united states has the responsibility to

nominate for confirmation the librarian of congress. i thought members of congress would nominate the librarian of congress. dr. hayden: i believe that started with lincoln and it would be a position that the president would nominate a supreme court justice and that type of position. you still have to be confirmed by the senate and went through that process. david: you interviewed with president obama and he said do you want to be librarian of congress and i guess you said you were interested. dr. hayden: i was concerned about what i could bring to the position because i had been so involved with public libraries, public access, all of that, but i never thought of actually being part of the library of congress because what the

perception was, that it was mainly for scholars. what president obama asked me was, he started out telling me that he had seen the contents of abraham lincoln's pockets the night he was assassinated. he had seen the copy of gettysburg address at the library of congress. he said i think that's because of my position. he said what could you do with your background to open up the library of congress to everyone? and that's when i thought, i think i can do that. david: let's say 10, 30 years from now, do you expect libraries to be more relevant, less relevant, more technologically savvy or about the same? dr. hayden: they are going to be more technologically savvy but they will be even more relevant because they are still trusted sources of information.

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david: let me ask you about the library itself today. how many employees do you have? dr. hayden: roughly 3500. they are not all librarians. those are the people you have come copyright lawyers, all types of people that work at the library of congress. david: often when i've seen library of congress employees i ask how long they've been here, they will say 35 years and i say it's a long time. they say no, somebody is 40 years, 50 years. why do they stay so long? dr. hayden: they love it, it's like being at a university and they are faculty members and subject experts in whatever suspect -- subject you have. the library of congress collects in 470 linkages -- languages.

half of them -- half of the collection is in linkages other than english. david: today you have 3500 employees, where you get your money from. i assume library fines are not a big part of your business. dr. hayden: this is where the accessibility for everyone comes into play. 85% to 90% of the library operating budget is from an appropriation from congress. that is taxpayer money. that's another reason why we are devoted to making sure people know this is their library too. david: does a joint committee on the library for congress? dr. hayden: the library budget goes through the appropriations committees on both sides, senate and house, and then there are

policy committees that help with the direction of the library itself. though budgeting gives you direction as well. david: what dean -- what do you do when you are not being a librarian of congress? dr. hayden: i love to read. when i get spare time, i read old new yorkers, they pile up, i love mysteries and biographies. david: you don't go to bookstores because you don't need to? dr. hayden: i do, i go to the iv bookstore and baltimore. it's funny because now people are watching what i am buying. you have to be careful. david: as we talk, this weekend is the national book festival weekend. this has been going on about 20 plus years. what actually happens at the national book festival. dr. hayden: and it is a festival, a one-day event and

was started by first lady laura bush when my predecessor, he came to washington, she had started the texas book festival that is still one of the largest book festivals in the country. they started it about 24 years ago and when you think about what we have for young people and what we do for young people, there is an entire section that is going to feature interactive activities and authors for young people. famous authors we all know. james mcbride, james patterson will be there, you will be there. it is heartening, we just talked about illiteracy. when you see all of these booklovers that are gathered, thousands and thousands of people. david: two presidents of the united states can borrow a book or are they too busy? dr. hayden: we've had some good relations with the white house

in terms of putting books on display for certain things. we've been doing more of that recently. david: what books do you like to read? dr. hayden: i am into mysteries. i am a big mystery fan. you feel some sense of satisfaction. someone usually gets killed, nobody cares, but then it is solved. it's very reassuring. david: let's talk about the library of congress in the future. let's say 10, 20, 30 years from now, do you expect libraries like the library of congress to be more relevant, less relevant, more technologically savvy or about the same as now? dr. hayden: they will be more technologically savvy but they were also be -- and we are seeing it now, even though there are challenges in terms of what public libraries and school libraries offer, they will be even more relevant because they

are still trusted sources of information. in the world of misinformation, who can you trust, what are the trusted sources? libraries will still be places people look to. ♪

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