>> from the heart of where innovation, money and power collide in silicon valley and beyond, this is "bloomberg technology," with caroline hyde and ed ludlow. caroline: trump and muscle building political power, time is ticking for the government shutdown and this the mar-a-lago

merry-go-round continues as bezos tries to influence decisions. and it is the season for intel dealmaking. first, let's check it. volatility is the name of the game. we have got what is known as triple witching upon us with options expiring and a focus on what's happening in terms of the nasdaq. there we are, the 100 is up .7%. at the beginning of trade we were underwater by .5%, really getting pushed around by the market after the significant selloff following the fat digestion of how many rate cuts are coming. we are also seeing of course one key risk sentiment factor coming to the downside. 108,000 dollars on crypto on the downside, off by 95,000 as of late.

bitcoin is under pressure as we see the macro policy impact. let's just get to the broader markets in general. push to 2025, hillary frisch is with us from clear bridge with a real focus on software. for me that has been the key calling card of december. november december was movement from hardware, from infrastructure, into software. the applications of ai, that will run on? >> thanks for having me. in general, it should. all that said, we have come so far in a short amount of time with software being up since early december. some consolidation of the gains we have seen is logical and i could see more through the beginning of the year for a few reasons, but in general i think the trend is up and we have reached important demarcation in

the space. caroline: is it macro policy, uncertainty? hillary: uncertainty over trump and the weaker part of the year. conservatively on the q4 earnings calls, with what we heard from the fed this week, the group will likely have to adjust to higher interest rates for longer, which impacts a few factors. caroline: looking at valuation more broadly, there have been the haves and have-nots. some have been entering benchmarks, like pal, a software winner as people are galvanized by generative ai opportunities, but is it too heady? when do we start to see those ratios looking healthy as they manage to grow their earnings? hillary: such a good question. pelletier is in a rarefied air. the first name of scale to capitalize on genai and a large way with the government

tailwinds in a large position, doing tremendously well with valuation head and shoulders above everyone else. i leave that alone. for the rest of the space, we are about to see much better growth than we have seen. it's been a flurry of activity since covid. it's been two years of digestion with companies using technology as a source of costs savings. now with the advent of generative ai and agents, which appeared on shift for this space , we are starting to see more investment. caroline: currently trading at 190 day times future earnings. the oxygen is getting sucked out of the room and there must be a? for investors and onlookers alike, show me the money, show me the productivity, how much will this affect my life, because i am just hearing the

words hillary:. right. it's so early. salesforce is working this movement. and it's been out for maybe only seven or eight weeks. caroline: have you use it? hillary: i have spoken to customers who have been testing it in beta. the feedback is excellent. compelling on accuracy, on ease of use, on the ability to draw together critical enterprise data and make use of it. we are just on the cusp of that. we will see other companies do that. it makes for a compelling story and we can start to dream of a better time where growth is better and part of that will be coming not from the agency themselves, but then taking on the hard work and improving the data, getting it ready for use in investments in cloud. caroline: david brooks raising

money in the private market, they were all about using that data underlying, but to that end we have a lot of startups talking about it, trying to get in the space and talking about the stalwart giants. are we going to see m&a activity once again? more broadly, these companies getting back into m&a with a more friendly administration? hillary: yes, no, and yes. part of the reason we have seen that rise in valuations since the summer is because of this friendlier stance we are likely to see with large companies and small companies. there is that. we will see a lot of startups trying to get into this space and some will be successful. there is always disruption with a new tech wave. what is compelling is we can see them capitalize on the portfolios and we are seeing

them do that. specifically salesforce is making acquisitions and ultimately we have seen them do something, but right now they seem so focused on what they have at hand that we may not see what we have traditionally seen from them in terms of large m&a. in fact they have a large swath of activists on the board still. caroline: keeping a close eye on those purse strings. more broadly, when 2023 and 2024 was so dominated by one name, nvidia, everybody asking about the software infrastructure, are we going to see that shift now? is everyone just going to be more around agents? the time of quantum? what will be the cocktail party question for you next year? >> that's an exciting one that will change every week -- every week. there has been a push and pull between semi and software the entire time as investors try to

identify the real ai beneficiary. in the reality they will both be strong one way or another. the names might shift, but software is starting their appreciation of ai. the agents, as i mentioned, it represents a shift from homegrown or do ai to do it for me ai and customers would far prefer that vendors do it for them. it will be better, faster, cheaper in the end. that is a story that continues. there are other things i like about software. semi's are in the process of getting beaten up. there is a lot of debate about whether we will see those smaller models with posttest time training at the point of inference with financial implications. but in the end we will need a lot more for what we are about to do.

caroline: it's always a joy to have you in the studio, hillary, always leaving us wanting to talk about more. intel has been shortlisting buyout firms for the next round of listings on altera. let's bring in brian gould. how close to the end mark are we? how many serious bids have come in at how broad are they? >> just before thanksgiving we put out a story saying they were calling for bids. all tara is the single biggest topic in tech m&a right now for the people who specialize in semiconductor it taken time and money with people thinking about how to structure their bids. they came in under thanksgiving and tell us now it's shortlisted. we have places like maine and silverlake and than others, like apollo, who are looking.

francisco partners with experienced semiconductor operators. adding intrigue to the mix, they specialize in fpga, it's the same kind of technology that intel is trying to sell here, they are also in the mix of the second round. caroline: their own market capitalization is not huge. they would have to partner. does intel want to fully hand over rains here? ryan: they are quite coy about what they really want to do. they have said that their plan is to sell a stake and take public when you are in that situation that they are in, they have options in the options on the table have to be considered. if something is presented to them, they will give good credence to it.

there are many proposals on the table here. multiple parts outlined in different suitors. it could be a situation where there is a group of private equity sponsors coming together. they are operational now and able to transform it into what they think it should be. >> a few bankers will be busy over the festive time. we know that you will be. coming up, time is ticking for the government to avoid a shutdown. trump and musk, weighing in. take a quick look at one stock on the move. i asked hillary if this is the year that we talk about quantum and it is here now. a buy on this company from greg, we are initiating coverage with a buy rating. piling in. this is bloomberg technology.

it's caroline: the house of representatives could vote on a temporary measure to fund the government for a brief time to avoid-ish -- to avert a shutdown according to two news networks. this after the house led by republicans rejected a temporary funding plan despite the pressure on gop lawmakers to support it. kailey leinz joins us for now from washington. feels as though they are intent on not having a break before the holidays. kaylee: usually the smell of jet fumes is enough to motivate lawmakers to get done what they need to get done by the deadline, but we are getting close to the wire, keeping in mind government funding expires at midnight. we are talking a window of just

under 13 hours and it isn't yet clear what exactly plan c will be after plan a failed. partially because they wanted to see that initial 1547 page bill die. resulting in a much slimmed-down bill that failed in a miserable fashion last night with 38 republicans voting against it. now the question will be -- can something get through the house today to avoid a shutdown? we are expecting republicans to hold a conference meeting in just over an hour where they could be informed of what the plan is next and there has been reporting from punch bowl news that they could actually end up dividing the bill that failed last night. holding separate votes on a continuing resolution on the debt ceiling measure on disaster relief to see what can get across the floor. caroline: for those not as in the weeds as you, on the one part it seems like this is pushed largely by musk and trump, they don't want to see

the pork given away, but on the other republicans are really flinching on the idea of the debt ceiling being put aside for a couple of years, which doesn't seem fiscally responsible according to them. kailey: that's exactly right. a relatively new idea. this idea that it should be extended, repealed, or lifted permanently before he takes office, trump has suggested. lawmakers i have spoken with, including dick durbin last night, suggested to me that that is likely because he knows he wants to get through a tax reform package next year and lifting the debt ceiling is an easy way to get that process done. that said, a number of conservatives in the house that represent a part of the 38 the voted against the measure last night that don't want to see the debt ceiling raised because they want to see more fiscal responsibility. that's going to be the question moving forward. can something that lifts the debt ceiling get across the floor, or will it only just keep

the government funded for a little bit of time and will it be shorter than what they initially planned, a three-month resolution that kicks the road? speaker johnson has a difficult needle to thread. he has to abide by what his conference once and is willing to vote for, but what donald trump and elon musk are willing to see across the floor. he has to stand for speaker election again on january 3 when the 119 congress sits and there is an open question at this hour as to whether or not given everything that has gone down he will be able to keep the gavel. caroline: kailey leinz, great breakdown, thank you. we have been reporting on the tech titans who have been meeting and dining with trump over the last few days. the google cofounders are in on the action with jeff bezos bringing in the latest. it doesn't even include the other big tech leaders officially working within the incoming administration. elon musk, david sachs, marc

andreessen, just to name a few. our guest joins us to discuss the new intersection of tech and politics in 2025. some names that we already know much about with more lining up for a dinner invitation. >> i mean everyone seems to be making their way to mar-a-lago. there is a very different feel from 2016. at that point trump held that sort of famous meeting and trump tower where all of the tech executives ended up coming, but it felt like they were almost forced to be there, dealing with their employees back at headquarters in silicon valley complaining and protesting at all this stuff. this time it feels different, going one by one and having dinner at mar-a-lago, being very friendly. i think that the awkward situation here is the elon musk of it all. all of these people are competitors in some way or another to him and his companies and often when they show up to dinner, like jeff bezos from

amazon, elon musk is often at the table. how much can you really say to donald trump or accomplish when one of your biggest enemies is sitting right there across the table from you? space competition -- caroline: space competition is fierce between blue origin and spacex. what do you think they will give in terms of indications regarding the inauguration of trump in the meetings that they were showing off, mark was showing off those methow glasses and the latest to president-elect trump. how is this dovetailing into in the agenda? kurt: everyone is in agreement that the best way to stay on his good side is to show up and demonstrate that with a public display of affection, right? whether that be a million dollar donation to the inaugural fund,

showing up to dinner and making the trek across the country to be there in person. every of these companies once something different but if you want to blanket it, they don't want him to come and hard around the tech knowledge they have built with regulation around ai, right? the last thing that mark zuckerberg wants is for the trump administration to say that we will try to hamper this ai growth for you, mark zuckerberg, because you didn't show up to make trump feel special, right? i think they are all doing what they need to just to simply be in his good graces in the hopes that those relationships, so important to the incoming president, will ultimately help to make their road easier over the next four years. caroline: many feeling akin to peter thiel, now, the only one back in 2016. kurt wagner, great to have your time. thank you. coming up, foxconn. not quite sure how much they are interested in nissan anymore. we have the latest.

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caroline: tencent storing on friday after investor enthusiasm took over a new gifting function on the we chat that allows users to give gifts priced at less than $1300, according to a statement. service providers will likely be beneficiaries. sticking with tencent, they are partnering on cloud and ai development, honor is among one of their higher profile cloud customers, using their big data analytics and socials along with two companies creating a coding assistant to honor software at engineers. baidu extending their decline as investors react to news that apple is in talks to work with them on intelligence as

newspaper reports show that bright dance -- bytedance has cut a new ai model. and a time on-based manufacturer of iphones known as foxconn is putting an interest in pursuing this app and putting it on hold. negotiations are way according to sources. meanwhile, the architect of the alliance 25 years ago said that the tie up between them is a desperate move. this is what he told bloomberg, yesterday. >> the cash problem, they have investment problems. they have been really hammered in the united states. they practically got out of europe. they are being challenged in china. there is no plan in front of them. i can tell you that there is panic mode inside. caroline: that was him speaking earlier today with manus cranny.

let's get out for the latest on the tie up. it was all catalyzed, greg, by the foxconn interest in nissan with japan racing to ensure that tiny -- taiwanese companies were not buying up japanese ones. is that still the game? >> we cannot rule out at this point that foxconn will completely lead the picture here. this is a case of real genuine interest. you have an executive at foxconn overseeing the ev initiatives. a former nissan executive adding to the intrigue. you also have a case of just a very complex deal. it's very unclear at this juncture what exactly is going to happen between honda and nissan, if anything. you have a case of nissan really needing some help and effectively meeting a rescue by all accounts.

likely some role that the japanese government is playing and trying to nudge these companies together. there are real questions about how this is exactly going to work out. also, another company in france who is also going to come into play. watch this space in 2025. caroline: no rest for you when it comes to deal coverage. frankly, china is the weak spot for both? >> absolutely. both of these companies have been shrinking in that market. there are questions about their long-term future there, along with a lot of western companies. what exactly is there going to be in terms of room for international companies, given the, the, the desire from china to really dominate this industry and also dominate its own market? caroline: greg, thank you as always, all across the dealmaking of the auto sector. coming up, we hear from cathie

wood and her predictions on crypto and robotaxi. you don't want to miss that interview. this is "bloomberg technology." ♪

caroline: welcome back. we are checking in on one key reflection of risk sentiment over the course of the week, bitcoin. at one point on tuesday exceeding 108,000 dollars per token. now diving down to the $97,000 level. worried about the trading days on sunday. no rest for the wicked, it trades 24/7, but we are seeing money come out after 15 straight days of money going into those spot bitcoin etf's with a pause in the record outflow on thursday and people started i just what higher for longer

really does mean for and ultimately record run that we have seen from bitcoin since the election of trump. we want to dig into what the experts are saying. cathie wood joined bloomberg yesterday to discuss her outlook for bitcoin in 2025 and talk about how bets on tesla and the incoming trump administration would impact the tesla story and autonomous driving. take a listen. >> one of the changes, back to regulation, is the likelihood that autonomous mobility, so robotaxis, are going to be regulated not on the state level -- 50 different regulators, but on the federal level. after all, autonomous vehicles will travel from state to state. so, it really should be federal legislation. i think that will speed up the move towards autonomous taxi

networks. i do believe that for that reason, investors and analysts are starting to model out what that will mean to the tesla model. it will take their gross margins from midteens right now up into the 60's, if we are right. because robotaxis and autonomous taxi networks are a sass model. another thing that is happening is more and more people are seeing videos of the humanoid robot all sorts of things we didn't think were possible, as the dexterity in its hands gets so much better. >> i want to pivot to ask you about the market action over the last few months when it comes to crypto. i'm sure you've seen the big run-up in bitcoin. a certainly phenomenal run from where it was a few months ago here.

do you still sort of see bitcoin hitting those lofty milestones that you have talked about before? 100,000 is still a long way from a billion. i wonder how much further you think this could actually go. cathie: what's interesting about bitcoin today, now that we are going to get more regulatory green lights, we are seeing institutional investors focus on this new asset class. as they are learning about it, they are saying -- wait a minute , this new asset class, this component of a new asset class, bitcoin, is going to reach 21 million units out there. 21 million bitcoin out there at its peak, and then no more from then on. where are we now? we are already above 19.5 million units. if institutional investors are looking at this new asset class

more seriously and bitcoin really is the first of its kind in a new asset class and will be , we believe, the biggest opportunity of the mall, they must consider an allocation. so, supply demand, they are doing the arithmetic and we see a million to 1.5 million by 2030 that the probability of that has increased because of institutional. caroline: some fundamentals there from cathie wood. sticking on bitcoin a little bit more. falling from its record highs, impacting the smaller coins, following the hawkish signals from the fed to. matt, chief investment officer, we saw the fundamental reasons why cathie wood is still bullish into 2025 and beyond. should anyone worry about the sudden weakness we have seen in the last few trading days? >> no, it's great to be on.

the weakness we have seen is a healthy pullback. looking at the big picture of the crypto market, it has run up substantially since the election with a lot of leverage buildup in the system. there have been about $2 billion in forced liquidations over the past two days. this has happened in crypto since its earliest time, we need to resend the leverage levels and then we will build from there. long-term leverage drivers are still intact. we feel the same about where it's going. caroline: you are someone who has seen the highs on the lows, you understand the volatility, but i'm interested in who is coming to your asset management company. thrilled to hear about what you think about institutional money coming that way. is it still a flood of high net worth individuals? what are you seeing? >> it has been both so far this

year but i am aligned with kathy in thinking that the institutions have been moving in size. when you saw 15 straight days of inflows, i believe that was institutional capital. every year we serve a professional investors and ask them what is keeping them out on the market and for six years they set a lack of regulatory clarity. the regulatory clarity is coming and it has opened the floodgates to institutions. i would just say that most people underestimate the size of this. blackrock just came out and said want -- most people should have 1% to 2% allocation with bitcoin and there is 100 trillion in institutional assets out there. 2% is a lot of investment that has to have -- a lot of that will start to come in in 2025. caroline: bitcoin, predominantly, how does it broaden out? >> you are already seeing that. a lot of people worried about

ethereum, for instance, with tepid inflow over the summer, but over the last month you have seen billions flowing into those products. the things that have happened with crypto in the past keep happening. historically most people enter through bitcoin and then they discover a theory him and think about solana. there's no reason to assume the institutions that came into bitcoin won't move on to other assets in the future and in 2000 205i think you will see an explosion of interests in strategies to give diversified exposure to crypto. something we have been doing since 2017 when we pioneered the concept. 2025 is i think when that becomes the mainstream way to allocate the space the same way that it is with stocks and bonds and everything else. caroline: you talked about the picture becoming clearer. you have seen a new crypto's are come out. david sachs.

someone invested in crypto. how much have you been able to steer the conversation? >> david is a good friend and has been an investor for a long time. the reason it is so important to have someone like david stacks in that position is that the two industries are critical to the future of america and have been really constrained and challenged by regulatory reach, regulation by enforcement. i think the market probably doesn't understand how fast these industries can move if there is regulatory clarity. bitwise is involved in washington. we have spoken to folks in washington, we talk to them all the time. it's great to have people who understand crypto taking office and i'm excited to see what happens here. caroline: looking at things that happen again and again when it comes to crypto, bitcoin was your preeminent thought, not all

boats rise. there is fun, there is exuberance, there is an air of sitting at the table at blackjack sometimes and i'm not taking that away from market participants, but how much is there a worry that there are points that could ultimately hurt those who understand it enough? >> i think that is worth being concerned about. again, i think the answer is better regulatory clarity. we have sort of taken a hands-off approach closer -- approach, which is in the right approach for hitting crypto to thrive in separating the good from the bad. it's true, investors moving into crypto should be careful. there is a big difference between bitcoin in the latest ai driven meme coin. folks need to understand that. we worry about this. people need to understand why this exists. it's an exciting part of the

market, but it shouldn't be a huge part of your portfolio. caroline: how are we seeing that fused together? real world is what people talk about going onto the blockchain, but matt there are in offerings being spun out in the options market or other ways that institutionally minded players can progress and mature at the way that you want to see it. >> we have been talking about crypto as a new asset class for a number of years in a new asset class needs all of those pieces to thrive options, etf, futures and other derivatives. it needs institutional players taking part in the ecosystem. we have been checking every bock as an industry. the skeptical people around of this being a major new asset class standing alongside stocks and bonds and commodities and

real estate, you just have to look at that track record. this is just going to accelerate in 2025. caroline: stay well, happy holidays, thank you. coming up, ai agents and how they are revolutionizing customer service. catherine will be with us. this is "bloomberg technology." ♪

caroline: you are looking at a live shot of the principal room. check out the technology podcast on the terminal, apple, spotify, and i heart. this is bloomberg. the eu has given unconditional approval to nvidia to purchase

an israeli startup that has software for handling ai computing and has been a close collaborator with nvidia since 2020. the takeover did not impose competition threats despite them being a key producer of hardware used in the eu and beyond. taking a look at the applications of ai. it's all you are going to hear in 2000 25. let's bring in an expert, the ceo and founder of a no code creation software company. you were raising funds last time that we spoke. you are taking on the publicly traded heavy weights salesforce, service now. i'm interested in how this aging force is something you have already been doing or are playing catch up on. katherine: first of all, thank you for having me, i'm excited to be here today. excited to talk about the future of enterprise software. i can tell you i have never been

as excited about the industry as i am now. even when the internet was developing, even at that time i wasn't as excited. the workflow automation software platforms that they are building is going to look completely different in three years the five years, these are exciting times. caroline: it looks different because you have already been helping people who cannot code code. now, is that the copilot model that makes things even more of a spoke? have you not been deploying that already as the market catches on? katherine: brilliant. creation has been ai native. the biggest difference, mentioning salesforce for example, is we combined in the command center all different patterns of ai. scales, a genentech, it would be predictive or prescriptive. depending on the use case, you

mentioned service or sales automation, we could be doing those particular use cases combined. as it is ai native, it's not an additional module on top of it. it's not like we announced it as a separate model and we charge for it. it's quite an opposite. we are not charging for it. it is the creation platform. ai is the central part of the platform. caroline: ultimately with everyone offering some kind of agent that helps with coding, how do you defend your territory even when you say you don't have to pay extra for the new ai applications? once others have the pricing sorted and are in the rooms of your customers, how do you defend the territory? katherine: brilliant. let's say that the first part of what they deliver is two parts of the equation.

no code development, as you correctly said. with ai wielding the applications on the platform. the second part is using it in the end user use cases like sales operation services. the combination of those two, being ai native, it is not a separate module on top of the existing platform. it is the platform itself. so, the experience of the user is completely different. the experience we are building and creating with the user is not the user learning how to use the software. it is ai learning how to collaborate with this particular end user of the application. as we all know, english is the future programming language and the basic collaboration between the user like herself or myself, the workflow of the future is

going to use that natural language. the natural language that it will be asking for for clothes and camps. it's a simple interface embedded in all the other applications you are using. caroline: i'm really interested in adoption and ultimately that seems to be a bottleneck. a plateau of the employees using the tools they've been invested in because they are worried about being deemed lazy or not getting the training necessary. but we also know that we need to see real creativity and get it into the hands of users to see how they adopt it. how have people used it? katherine: thank you for asking this question. there are two aspects. the first is that everyone is building and developing new ai skills. this does the same where we are expanding the library of those skills, meaning we expand the number of use cases that can be covered using ai.

the future of it, if you asked me about 2025, the future is that the user can do any use case without actually opening any other interfaces. just one ai interface collaboration in english. building those skills takes a little bit of time. we are definitely the front runner here. from the other side, let's talk about the pricing part of it. in the case of creation ai, that is literally the platform itself . all the users who have those licenses, they already have access to it. in other cases, with our competitors they need to acquire it through additional licenses to start the adoption process. so, partially, i guess, again, i don't know the exact numbers but i would think that would be

partially the reason why the adoption is not as fast as they expected or predicted. caroline: to clarify, those numbers were put out by's lag looking across various different industry groups through ai adoptions and tools. it's always great to speak with you. thank you for coming on, happy. coming up, amazon workers are on strike this holiday season as the company fights back. is it affecting your mail? that's -- this is "bloomberg technology." ♪

♪ caroline: teamsters union members are striking against amazon for a second day as shoppers made their final christmas purchases. groups of workers in california, new york, illinois, georgia, demanding better working conditions. amazon said that they have filed unfair labor practice charges against the union as the teamsters say a strike expansion is coming. how much impact as this having? katherine: -- matt: best we can tell, not a lot. they have a lot of room to send packages through other facilities as teamsters make noise about a strike for more than a week now. they had advanced notice that it

was coming. i wouldn't expect this to be rail anything at all. caroline: what about derailing the path of future unionization more broadly? it's all about luring people over to join? matt: on that front, we will see, but it is the biggest action today targeting amazon by labor in the united states. no one has ever tried with the teamsters are doing, organizing across the delivery depots, blue badge employees themselves. it's a pretty big effort. amazon says it's a lot of pr so far, but they have the full attention of the teamsters now and they are taking it seriously. caroline: i'm interested in how these leaders of the business are looking towards the mask -- the next administration. many workers feel represented but many others feel that the things set around trump and unions have been adverse to them. matt: union folks are sober on

the reality of the changing administration. the national labor relations board has been a friendly body under the fight -- biden administration, that is likely to change. they said that this is about gathering support among your pals and that's not going to change, it's about the support they can get from the workers rather than d.c. having your back. caroline: matt, thank you, we appreciate you joining. getting back to the markets more broadly, it's a volatile day and that's not surprising. it's triple witching. what does it mean? adding volatility towards the close of the week. we had been in negative territory to start trade. people trying to brush off the over movement and overreaction to the fed with two cuts coming into thousand 25. crypto, still underwater, well off of their 8000 level, but what a run it has been.

that does it for this edition. don't forget to check out our podcast, it's on the terminal, online, on spotify and i hard. we will be back in the new year. you will see me across other programs. this is "bloomberg technology." ♪

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