tv The David Rubenstein Show Peer to Peer Conversations Bloomberg January 1, 2025 9:00pm-9:30pm EST
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decades i've been an investor. the highest calling of mankind is private equity. then i started interviewing. >> i know how to do some interviewing. >> i learned from doing my interviews how leaders make it to the top. >> i asked how much he wanted. he said to 50. i said fine. i did note due diligence. >> how they stay there. >> you don't feel inadequate because you are only the second wealthiest man in the world, is that right? the library of congress is the largest library in the world. it's led by carla hayden, the librarian of congress. she is unique because she's the first woman to be librarian of congress, the first african-american, and also one of the first librarians to be librarian of congress. i had a chance to sit down with her and hear her story and how she's trying to open up the library of congress to all americans area so why does congress need a library? can't they just use the regular library that other people have? >> congress -- think about this.
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in 1800, a new nation, a new legislative body. there was the sought that they needed some reference books. they were mainly law books. the first books that were purchased. about 600 books. that's how the library of congress really started. think of the name. the library of congress. it is a reference and research tool for congress. they knew that. because they have parliamentary libraries and they knew about those type of things. they knew as legislators, they might have to refer. >> now in 2024, the library of congress is much bigger than it was when it first started in 1800. is it really properly named the library of congress now? is it more than a library for congressman? >> it has evolved. over time it evolved into not
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only the reference tool for congress -- and there is still about 500 experts in just about every field that are dedicated to being the researchers and nonpartisan experts for congress. but the library has expanded to serve the people that congress serves. now, it is the largest library in the world with 178 million items. it serves everyone. the only people who can actually check out materials in the traditional sense are members of congress and their staff members. but members of the public, the general public, can come into the library of congress' facilities and use materials on-site. david: let's suppose i'm a person who wants to use the library of congress for research and i need some books i want to read at home. i cannot do that as a regular person. dr. hayden: you cannot do that, but what many public libraries
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and university and college libraries throughout the united states, and even some international facilities, the library of congress will loan materials to another library and a patron could look at the materials right there. they could not take them home, but they could look at them in their own library. david: what does the librarian of congress actually do? dr. hayden: the librarian of congress is basically the ceo of the entire enterprise. that includes the u.s. copyright office, the library of congress in 1870 became the administrative operation and really the main manager of the u.s. copyright system. that's also how the library collection grew. because when you register for copyright, whatever it is, you
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are required to deposit two copies of whatever it is. that could be wallpaper, video games, books. when the library of congress became the administrator of the copyright system, they were able to then select from deposits and the collection really grew. david: we've had a library of congress that started in 1800. how many women have been librarians of congress before you? dr. hayden: i am the first female librarian of congress since 1802. the library itself was established, the law books in 1800, and in 1802, there was a thought, we need somebody to manage this, and that's when the first librarian of congress was appointed. david: how many african-americans have been librarian of congress before you?
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dr. hayden: that's also me, and so i am a two-fer in terms of that. there have not been any people of color or females. it's interesting, one of the most unusual parts of me being in the position is the fact that i'm a female, because librarianship is one of what they call the four feminized professions where 85% to 90% of the people who work in the institution are female, but the top management doesn't reflect that. david: is there a library bigger than the library of congress anywhere in the world, does any country have a bigger collection of books? dr. hayden: we have just been designated in the guinness book
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of world records as the largest library in the world and our closest competitor, and it's really not competition, is the british library, the national library of great britain. we have a friendly kind of rivalry. in terms of number of items, we definitely are the largest. david: you have more than books, you have regular books, comic books, maps, manuscripts. dr. hayden: photographs, film, all types. any format. david: today, almost everything is digitized, it seems, so why do we need libraries since we can go on a computer and get everything? do you need to really keep all these books? why not just digitize them and say thank you? dr. hayden: there are so many items have not been digitized and might not ever be digitized. when you think about the diaries of theodore roosevelt, the library of congress has the papers of 23 presidents from george washington to coolidge. there are still analog materials that could be digitized, but will be in analog form. and books, even though you can get things in digital form, there are still people and there still will be an appetite for a
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physical item. but the future is definitely digital, so libraries like the library of congress, british library, all libraries, are making sure they have the infrastructure to be able to get materials that are born digital. we have quite a bit of materials that are coming in. they never are in analog form, they are coming straight in digital form and we are able to circulate them. david: as we talk now, what do you think you've done in your eight years or so to open up the library to the average citizen more than what was done before? specifically with respect to children, what have you done? dr. hayden: to be a cardmember, to use the 18 reading rooms at the library of congress -- david: why do you need a card? dr. hayden: it is a card, it is a readers card to give you access to the materials, to say you are responsible, even though you can't check them out, it's to have a record of who is
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coming in to do that. what we've done is expand the offerings we have for young people. we have a young people's ambassador for literature, we have literacy programs and you've been involved in giving actual awards to literacy groups that help young people learn how to read. the offerings we have for young people have expanded greatly. david: literacy is a big problem in the united states. i think 14% of adults are functionally illiterate, which means they can't read past the fourth-grade level. that is a large percentage of the population. there's nothing the library of congress can do to completely solve that problem, but are you surprised at how any people still cannot read in this country and how many people have
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another problem called aliteracy, which means they can read but choose not to. dr. hayden: it's a challenge in the digital age, people are reading on tablets, so we count that as reading. if you have an e-book, you are reading the book. i have often been asked if i am listening to a book, are you reading, does that count? there is a concern that the amount of reading, actual text, that people are doing is diminishing. so, how do you work with other organizations? the library of congress connects to other libraries, school libraries, and do joint programming with them. there is an opportunity for us to let people know and make reading more interesting. david: literacy is a challenge for sure, but in the libraries around the country, are libraries being used more because people cannot afford to buy books, or because it is a good place to gather where it is quiet? why do we have these thousands of libraries anymore when people
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are often doing things digitally and don't need to go to a physical place to get a book? dr. hayden: people are using public libraries as opportunity centers. they use the high-speed computers to fill out job applications, to interact with government. the e-government aspect. they are using libraries as places to register to vote. all types of things. libraries are offering collections that are beyond books. so, libraries are circulating and responding to communities in so many ways. ♪
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campus of florida a&m university. a historically black college in tallahassee, florida. david: were your parents teachers there? dr. hayden: yes, my father had been recruited to start the string department at that school. he was a classically-trained violinist. he was there. my mom was a pianist. she was his accompanist many times. they went down there, they had never been to florida, they'd never been to a historical black college. they were from springfield, illinois, my dad, and champaign, illinois, my mom. it was a totally different experience for them. david: let me ask how you got out of florida, because you were born and raised there, but where did you go to college? dr. hayden: there was a little byway there. my dad got bitten by the jazz bug. we moved to new york city so he could pursue that.
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parents got divorced, because my mom did not get bitten by that bug, so they returned to their home states of illinois. i ended up going to high school and then college in chicago. david: you went to college ultimately where? dr. hayden: roosevelt university and university of chicago. david: you got a phd in library sciences at the university of chicago. dr. hayden: yes. david: are there many library schools anymore? the one at the university of chicago no longer exists, but are there still a lot of library schools around the united states? dr. hayden: there are about 56 library schools, but now they are mainly called information science schools, schools of information science or information management. the university of chicago school closed and the columbia university closed because their programs were deemed a little too academic. david: after you got your phd
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from the university of chicago in library sciences, what did you do? dr. hayden: i went off to teach at the library school in the university of pittsburgh and that school was really before its time. the dean there, toni carbo, really wanted to make sure there was a merger with information science, computer science. she brought in technology companies. it was an innovative library school. david: did you go back to chicago from there? dr. hayden: i went back because one of my students i had sent off with all this "knowledge is power" and work in libraries and help people, he came back and said i'm going to get a phd and i want to teach. i said i thought you were doing so well at this big urban library. he said you told me to bring my ideas up and i saw the director of the library and i went up to him and i was trying to tell him some of the things i was interested in, and he blew me
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off. i thought, ok. so, i'm coming back to academia. david: what did you do? you joined the chicago -- dr. hayden: the chicago public library. david: you rose up to be the? dr. hayden: the chief librarian. i also did a stint at the museum of science and industry. that was really helpful because i worked more with the curators, but also opening up a public library in a museum. david: when you are in chicago, you met two people, did they borrow a lot of books, barack and michelle obama? did they ever have overdue fines? dr. hayden: we could never tell if they did, but what happened was when i went back, the person that was the administrator for
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the city of chicago that had in her portfolio the public library was michelle robinson. i got to know her because she was responsible as a deputy mayor type of position. then, she got engaged to this gentleman who had an interesting name and i was recruited to head up the baltimore library. that july, i missed the wedding. david: whatever happened to him? dr. hayden: he did well. it was so interesting too, that years later, i would be sitting almost like this in the oval office, being interviewed by the president of the united states because that is the person who nominates the librarian of congress. it is that gentleman. david: so you already knew him. let's talk about baltimore, you went to my hometown of baltimore where the library system is called the enoch pratt free library system. and you became the head librarian of the system for 22 years.
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then, the president of the united states has the responsibility to nominate for senate confirmation the librarian of congress. why don't members of congress would nominate the librarian of congress since it's a congress thing? dr. hayden: i believe that started with lincoln and it would be a position that the president would nominate similar to a supreme court justice, it was that type of position. you still have to be confirmed by the senate and i went through that process. david: you interviewed with president obama and he said do you want to be librarian of congress, and i guess you said you were interested. dr. hayden: i was concerned about what i could bring to the position because i had been so involved with public libraries, public access, all of that, but i never thought of actually
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being part of the library of congress because of what the perception was, that it was mainly for scholars. what president obama asked me was, he started it out with telling me that he had seen the contents of abraham lincoln's pockets the night he was assassinated. he had seen the first draft of the gettysburg address at the library of congress. he said i think that's because of my position. he said, what could you do with your background to open up the library of congress to everyone? that's when i thought and said to him, i think i can do that. david: let's say 10, 20, 30 years from now, do you expect libraries like the library of congress to be more relevant, less relevant, more technologically savvy or about the same as now? dr. hayden: they are going to be more technologically savvy, but they will be even more relevant
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david: let me ask you about the library itself today. how many employees do you have? dr. hayden: roughly 3500. they are not all librarians. those are the people -- you have copyright lawyers, all types of people that work at the library of congress. david: often when i've seen library of congress employees, i ask how long they've been here, and they simply say 35 years and i say it's a long time. they say no, somebody here is 40 years, 45 years. why do people stay so long at the library of congress? dr. hayden: they love it. one of the joys. it is like being at a university. they are faculty members and subject experts in whatever subject you have.
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the library of congress collects in 470 languages. half of the collection is in languages other than english. the middle eastern division, you will have experts who are from the region. david: today, you've got 3500 employees. where you get your money from? i assume library fines are not a big part of your business. dr. hayden: this is where the accessibility for everyone comes into play. 85% to 90% of the library's operating budget is from an appropriation from congress. that is taxpayer money. that's another reason why we are really just devoted to making sure people know this is their library, too. david: there is a joint committee on the library for congress? dr. hayden: the library budget goes through the appropriations
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committees on both sides, senate and house, and then there are policy committees that help with the direction of the library itself. though, budgeting gives you direction as well. david: what do you do when you are not being a librarian of congress? dr. hayden: i always love to read. when i get some spare time, i can look at old "new yorkers," they pile up. i love mysteries and biographies. david: you don't go to any bookstores because you don't need to? dr. hayden: i do, i go to the ivy bookstore in baltimore. it's funny because now people are watching what i am buying. you have to be careful. david: as we talk, this weekend is the national book festival weekend. this has been going on about 20-plus years or so. what actually happens at the national book festival? dr. hayden: and it is a
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festival, a one-day event with over 90 authors now. it was started by first lady laura bush when my predecessor, when she came to washington, she had started the texas book festival that is still one of the largest book festivals in the country. they started it about 24 years ago and when you think about what we have for young people and what we do for young people, there is an entire section that is going to feature interactive activities and authors for young people. famous authors we all know. doris kearns goodwin, james mcbride, james patterson will be there, you will be there. it is heartening, we just talked about illiteracy. when you see all of these booklovers that are gathered, thousands and thousands of people. david: do presidents of the united states ever borrow a book or are they too busy?
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they don't call you and say, do you have this book, or something like that? dr. hayden: we've had some good relations with the white house in terms of putting books on display for certain things. we've been doing more of that recently. david: what kind of books do you like to read? nonfiction? dr. hayden: i am into mysteries. i am a big mystery fan. you feel some sense of satisfaction. someone usually gets killed, nobody cares, but then it is solved. it's very reassuring. david: let's talk about the library of congress in the future. let's say 10, 20, 30 years from now, do you expect libraries like the library of congress to be more relevant, less relevant, more technologically savvy or about the same as now? dr. hayden: they are going to be more technologically savvy, and we are seeing it now, even though there are some challenges in terms of what public libraries and school libraries
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