david: this is my kitchen table and also my filing system.

for much of the past three decades i've been an investor. the highest calling of mankind i've always thought was private equity. i've learned from doing the interviews how leaders make it to the top. >> i asked, she wanted, i said to hunter 50, i didn't know due diligence. david: i have something i'd like to sell. you don't feel inadequate being only the second wealthiest man in the world, is that right? >> the library of congress is the largest in the world. it is led by the librarian of congress who is unique because she is the first woman to be librarian of congress, the first african-american, and also one of the first librarians to be librarian of congress. i had a chance to sit down with her recently to hear her story and how she is trying to open up the library of congress to all americans. so why does congress need a library, can't they just use the regular library, why do they need their own?

>> take about this. in 1800, a new nation, a new legislative body, there was the thought that they needed some reference books and they were mainly law books. the first purchased about 600 books, and that is have the library of congress really started. think of the name. it is a reference and research tool for congress, and they knew that because they have parliamentary libraries. so they knew that as legislators, they might have to refer. jonathan: now in a 2024, the library of congress is much agreed that it was when they first started in 1800, but is it really properly named the library of congress now, because isn't it more than just a library for congress? >> it has evolved and over time it evolved into not only the

reference tool for congress, and there are still about 500 experts in just about every field that are dedicated to being the researchers and nonpartisan experts for congress, but the library has expanded to serve the people that congress serves. so now it is the largest library in the world, with 178 million items, and it serves everyone. now, the only people who can actually check out materials in the traditional sense are members of congress and their staff members. but members of the public, the general public can come into the library of congress facilities and use materials on site. david: suppose i am a person who wants to use the library of congress for research and i need some books i want to take home to read them at home. i cannot do that. >> you cannot do that.

what you could do and what many libraries, public libraries and university college libraries throughout the united states and even in some international facilities, library of congress will loan materials to another library and a patron could look at the materials right there. they couldn't take them home, but they could look at them in their own library. david: so what is the librarian actually do? >> library of congress is basically the ceo of the entire enterprise, and that includes the u.s. copyright office. library of congress in 1870 retained the administrative operation and really the main manager of the u.s. copyright system. that is also have a library collection group, -- grew because when you register for

copyright, you are required to deposit two copies of whatever it is. that could be wallpaper, video games, or books. and when the library of congress became the administrator of the copyright system, they were then able to select from deposits in the collection. david: so we started in 1800. how many women have been librarians of congress before you? >> i'm the first female library of congress since 1802. the library itself was established in 1800, and then there was the thought well, we need somebody to manage this, and that is where the first library of congress was appointed. david: how many african-americans have been librarian of congress before you? >> that's also me. so i am a twofer in terms of that.

there haven't been any people of color or females. and it's interesting, one of the most unusual parts of me being in this position is the fact that i'm a female, because librarianship is one of what they called before feminized professions, where 85-90% of the people who work in the institution are female. but the top management doesn't reflect that. david: so is there a library bigger than library of congress anywhere in the world? does any country have a bigger collection of books in the library of congress? >> we've just been designated in the guinness book of world records at the largest library in the world, and our closest competitor, and it is really not a competition, if the british library, that is the national library of great britain. and we have a friendly kind of rivalry, but in terms of number of items, we definitely are the largest.

david: so you have more than books. you have comic books, maps, manuscripts. >> photographs, film, all types. any format. david: today almost everything is digitized, so why do we really need libraries if you could just go on a computer and get everything? do you really need to keep all these books? why not just digitize them and say thank you? >> there are so many items that have not been digitized and might not ever be digitized. when you think about the diaries of theo roosevelt, the library of congress at the papers of 23 presidents from george washington to coolidge. there are still analog materials that could be digitized, but will be in analog form. and books, even though you can get things in digital form, there are still people and there

still will be an appetite for a physical item. but the future is definitely digital and until all libraries are making sure that they have the infrastructure to be able to get materials that are born digital, we have quite a bit of material that are coming in that never are in analog form. they are coming straight in digital form and we are able to circulate them. david: as we talk now, what do you think you have done in eight years or so to open up the library to the average citizen more than was done before, specifically with respect to children? >> well to be a cardmember, to use the 18 reading rooms of the library of congress -- david: why do you need a card? >> it is a readers card to give you access to the materials to say that you are responsible

even though you can't check them out. it is to have a record of who is coming in to do that. what we've done is to expand the offerings that we have for young people. we have a young people's ambassador for literature. we have literacy programs, and you've been involved in giving actual awards to literacy groups that help young people learn how to read. and so the offerings that we have for young people have expanded greatly. david: literacy is a big problem in the united states. i think 14% of adults are functionally illiterate which means they can't repast a fourth grade level. that is a large percentage of the population. not that the library of congress could completely solve that problem but are you surprised to many people still cannot read in the country and how many people can read, but they choose not to read? is that a growing problem? >> it is a challenge with the digital age because people are

reading on tablets, so we do count that is reading. if you have an e-book, you are reading a book. i've often been asked if i'm listening to a book, mi reading, does that count? but there is a concern that the amount of reading actual text that people are doing is diminishing. , so how do you work with other organizations? the library of congress connects to public libraries and you can join with them because there is an opportunity for us to let people know and to make reading more interesting. david: so literacy is a challenge for sure that libraries around the country, our libraries being used more and more because people can't afford to buy books, or because it is a good place to gather where it is quiet? why do we actually have

thousands of libraries anymore when people are often doing things gently, they don't need to go to a physical place to get it book? >> people are using public libraries as opportunity centers. they use the high-speed computers to fill out job applications, to interact with government. they are using libraries as places to register to vote and all types of things, and libraries are offering collections that are beyond books. so libraries are circulating and responding to communities in so many ways. ♪

♪ david: so let's talk about your background and how you became a librarian. were you born? >> i was born on the campus of florida a&m university.

i started my college in tallahassee, florida. david: and were your parents teachers? >> yes, my father had been recruited to start the string department at that school. he was a classically trained violinist and string instruments, and so he was there. and my mom, she was a pianist. she was is a company asked many times. they had never been to florida, never had been to a historically black college and they were from springfield, illinois, my dad and champaign, illinois, my mom. so it was a totally different experience for them. david: let me ask you how you got out of florida because you were born and raised there, but then where did you go to college? >> there was a little by way. my dad got bitten by the jazz bug, and he moved to new york city so he could pursue that.

my parents got divorced because my mom did not get bitten by that bug. so then we returned down to their home state of illinois. so i ended up going to high school and then college. roosevelt university and university of chicago. david: so you got a phd in library sciences. are there many library schools anymomany no longer exist but ae there still schools in the united states? >> about 56 library schools but now they are mainly called information science schools, schools of information science or information management. university of chicago school closed and the columbia university closed because their programs were deemed a little too academic. david: so if you got your phd from the university of chicago

in library sciences, what did you do? >> i went off to teach at the library school and that school was really before it's time. the dean really wanted to make sure that there was a merger with information science, computer science. he brought in technology companies and it was really an innovative library school. david: did you go back to chicago from there? >> i went back because one of my students that i had sent off with all this knowledge is power and go and work in these libraries and help people and everything, he came back and said i'm going to get a phd and i want to teach. we were doing so well i thought. he told me to bring my ideas up

and i saw the director of the library and i went up to him and i was trying to tell them some of the things i was interested in, and he blew me off. and so i'm coming back to academia. david: so you joint -- >> chicago public library. i went back to chicago. did a stint at the museum of science and industry, and that was really helpful because they work more with the curators, but also opening up a public library in a museum. david: so you met two people. barack and michelle obama. did they ever have overdue fines or anything? >> well we could never tell if they did. but what happened was when i went back, the person that was the administrator for the city

of chicago that had in her portfolio the public library with michelle robinson. and i got to know her because she was responsible as a deadly mayor type of position, and then she got engaged to this gentleman who had a rather interesting name, and i was recruited to head of baltimore library. so that july i missed the wedding. david: what happened to him? >> he did well. it was so interesting that years later i would be sitting almost like this in the oval office being interviewed by the president of the united states because that is the person who nominates the library of congress, and it is that gentleman. david: let's talk about baltimore. you went to my hometown of baltimore where the library system is, he became head

librarian for 22 years. so you are the head librarian for 22 years in baltimore and then the president of the united states has a responsibility to nominate for senate confirmation the library of congress. why don't members of congress nominate a library of congress? >> i believe that starting with lincoln. and then it would be a position that the president would nominate someone to supreme court justice, and it was that type of position. so you still have to be confirmed by the senate. and i went through that process. david: so you interview with president obama and he said do you want to be librarian of congress, and i guess you said you were interested. >> i was concerned about what i could bring to the position because i had been so involved with public libraries, public access, all of that.

i never thought of actually being part of the library of congress because of what the perception was, that it was mainly for scholars. so what president obama asked me was he started out with telling me that he had seen the contents of abraham lincoln's pockets the night he was assassinated. he had seen a reading copy of the gettysburg address that lincoln took. at the library of congress. he said i think that is because of my position. and he said what could you do with your background to open up the library of congress to everyone? and that is when i thought and i said to him i think i can do that. david: 10, 20, 30 years from now, you expect libraries to be more relevant, less relevant, more technologically savvy or about the same as now?

>> they are going to be more technologically savvy, but even more relevant because they are still trusted sources of information.

♪ david: so let me ask you about the library itself today. how many employees do you have? >> roughly 3500 because they are not all librarians. we have copyright lawyers, all types of people that work at the library. david: very often when i see library of congress employees i ask how long they've been here and they say 35 years. they say somebody here is 40 years, somebody is 45 years. why do people stay so long? >> they love it. it is like being in a university. they are like faculty members. and they are subject experts in

whatever subject they have. the library of congress, it collects 470 languages. half of the collections are in languages other than english. the middle eastern division you're going to have experts from the region who are from the region and speak it. david: so today you've got 3500 employees. worthy of get your money from, library fines i assume are not any part of your business. >> this is where the accessibility for everyone comes into play, because 85%-90% of the library's operating budget is from an appropriation from congress. that is taxpayer money. so that is another reason why we are just devoted to making sure people know that this is their library. david: so it is a joint committee on the library. >> the library budget goes

through the appropriations committee on both sides. senate and house. and then there are policy committees that help with the direction of the library itself. though budgeting gives you direction as well. david: what do you do when you are not being a librarian of congress? >> i love to read. when i get some spare time i can look at old new yorkers, i can read a mystery, i love mysteries, and biographies. david: but you don't go to bookstores because you don't need to buy books. >> i do. i go to the ivory bookstore in baltimore and it is funny because now people are watching what i'm buying. so you have to be careful. david: as we talked, this weekend at the national book festival weekend. this has been going on for about 20 plus years or so. what actually happens at the national book festival?

>> it is a one-day event with over 90 authors now and it was started by first lady laura bush when my predecessor, when she came to washington, she had started the texas book festival. that is still one of the largest in the country. and they started it about 24 years ago, and when you think about what we have for young people and what we do for young people, there is an entire section that is going to feature interactive activities and authors for young people, famous authors that we all know, doris kearns goodwin, james mcbride, james patterson will be there, you will be there. and we've just talked about illiteracy and when you see all of these booklovers that are gathered, thousands and thousands of people. david: the president of the

united states ever come up and borrow a book or are they too busy to do that? >> we've had some good relations with the white house in terms of putting book and display we had met recently. at david: what kind of books do you like to read? >> i'm into mysteries, big mystery fan some sense of satisfaction. someone usually gets killed, nobody cares. and then it gets solved. so is very reassuring. david: it's talk about the future. 10, 20, 30 years from now. do you expect libraries to be more relevant, less relevant? more technologically savvy, about the same as now? >> more technologically savvy, but even though there are some challenges in terms of what

public libraries and school libraries offer, they are going to be even more relevant because they are still trusted sources of information. and in the world of misinformation, who can you trust? libraries are still going to be places that people look to. i earned my degree online at southern new hampshire university. after i graduated, i started a new job.

i was finally able to realize my purpose and passion in life. pursuing my degree gave me so many opportunities to grow don't just think about yourself. think about the lives that you can really change. snhu laid the groundwork. i am doing what i've always wanted to do. if i was back at the beginning, i would choose snhu all over again. (♪♪)