>> from the heart of where innovation, money, and power collide in silicon valley and beyond this is bloomberg technology with caroline hyde and ed ludlow. caroline: live from new york i am caroline hyde. mike: i am mike sheppard in san francisco. caroline: asml fights back deepseek. it has surges as stronger chip orders and press plus did deepseek improperly use openai data. microsoft and open and i -- ai

investigate. we sit down with the t-mobile ceo on the heels of the standout fourth-quarter first rechecking in the markets. it is fed day and when we get a pause later today but we are up .4%. we are being dragged down by microsoft and nvidia. we will see what earnings come up, and that -- not only are we reeling from deepseek but we have to digest the other numbers. tonight we keep an eye on the front three. and then we think about what we have already had in europe and it is asml. they managed to fight back some of those anxieties around deepseek. cheap ai models, does that metal for chips and chip equipment? asml surging and it was up the most since 2020. this was on the back of very strong orders. mike: and we are staying on asml and the big earnings beak. joining us is john in amsterdam.

there were a surgeon orders for asml, far more than expected but all of that was before the deepseek revelations. how did the ceo message this today? >> hello. christoph, rc -- our ceo doubled down. he said that deepseek would be good news and anyone that lowers costs lowers barriers to entry. so lower-cost means that ai can be used in more applications and more applications mean more chips. more chips would mean asml can sell more machines to chipmakers. and they think that deepseek could lead to democratize asian -- democratization. mike: when we talk about chips we cannot get away from

geopolitics. how did some of the u.s. restrictions on sales of sensitive equipment play into the results that we saw today? cagan: china accounted for 27% of asml sales which was down from nearly half of its sales in the third quarter. the company expects china sales to fall about point 5% of its total revenue. they think that sales are taking a hit from the prospect of more u.s. restrictions under donald trump as well as a broader weakness in the chip sector. mike: thank you so much. caroline: we have plenty more earnings and other stocks we are watching. apple and t-mobile that have been working secretly together to add support for the starlink network. the tech is being supported with an installation of the iphone's latest software update but more on t-mobile because the company

is out with its fourth-quarter results beating analyst expectations. they sought continued growth in subscribers and home internet customers adding 900 3000 monthly phone customers and guiding for continued strong growth. joining us as a t-mobile ceo. in december you said be cautious about our fourth quarter. what changed? >> the only thing that was pointed out as it is a seasonal corridor and the last couple of weeks is important. we are filing -- firing on all cylinders. we finished our strongest growth your ever and strong with a monster q4. caroline: and you are guiding for customers adding up to 6 million in 2025 which is a big ramp. where are the customers coming from? mike s.: this is the strongest guide that we have given and it is simple. the consumer businesses firing on all cylinders. in the top 100 and smaller markets. and now the business sector is

starting to rise as well. you look across all of the segments, and things are -- and people are flocking to t-mobile. caroline: i am interested in the other competitors out there, at&t and verizon added to them and where the customers coming from? mike s.: we are the best house and a great neighborhood. i do not need for competitors to fail in order to succeed. we are taking share but the market is vibrant and people are growing and getting more value out of rate plans and buying up the rate card and the average revenue per customer per month are rising, not because of rising prices but they are self-selecting up the rate card which allows revenues to rise where no one is a loser. caroline: people will need more data for generative ai. has that become a chokepoint? mike s.: it is a way for us to showcase differentiation. open signal has once again said we ran the gamut in terms of

network awards and we have the most capacity by far. as the demand for the network on ai-based applications starts to grow, it will only showcase the differentiation and consumers will see the difference. caroline: will consumers care when they are without any signal and now they are able to tap into starlink? mike s.: when we first announced this, it was the single most covered thing we have ever talked about and that is saying something because our carrier moves are big deals. it speaks to a universal pain point. this is a big country and there are 500,000 square miles that none of the carriers covered. and so now, our vision is simple. if you can see the sky, you are connected. caroline: and you do not have to point your phone at it anymore. why did you roll it out so secretly? why did it feel like you could

quietly get on to your t-mobile or iphone when we had not thought it? mike s.: we announced this a long time ago so it has been a couple of years and we did not want to keep growing until it was ready. we made a big deal when we struck the partnership and said let us stay quiet until it is time to hand people the service. two weeks ago we started letting people into the beta program and now we have thousands of users and we are about to throw the doors wide open. and then commercial service is here. caroline: it is performing well? mike s.: absolutely. the launches are happening rapidly. there are 400 satellites, low-earth orbit and these are some of the differences versus higher-level satellites. people are getting a great experience. our goal is to start with text messaging so you can get the texts out regardless of where you are and it will move to picture messaging and mms, data, and voice. caroline: i hate to find any

clouds when you point to signal linings. you signaled that caution about cyclicality but, ultimately, you have had stellar growth. how much can you camp on bringing -- keep on bringing on new -- more consumers? mike s.: it is steady and consistent. we set out a set of outlooks and then we consistently meet or beat them. what we put out was a strong guide but i was not expecting much from the business that we have not done in the past. you can rely on the things we say because we look at the trends underneath. we offer a stronger network value proposition and at a lower price. at the end of the day it will cause people to continue choosing t-mobile. caroline: what is it that investors are needing at this moment to hear from you. you have 22 buys and only two cells. where are you hearing the questions of caution?

mike s.: they want to know the next act so that is what we focused on last fall. talk about what comes beyond the next couple of years. ai is a big piece of it. we are transforming business operations to think about how do we serve customers in the era of ai. this industry has treated everyone the same and it is so analog. you spend a saturday of your life in one of our retail stores trying to upgrade your family to new phones. we know that we can do better. t life is in the hands of 15 million people and can give you an experience that is different from someone else in terms of authors -- offers and upgrades. it is an exciting moment for us to rethink how we serve customers and give each customer a fantastic journey. caroline: what could filmmakers be doing better? apple is getting another downgrade but we are not

upgrading our phones as much as we used to? do you have to capitalize on the add-ons because samsung and apple are not presenting as new use cases? mike s.: it works for art -- what works for our business model is that upgrade rates have slowed down but they are steady. prices have risen so the oem's have made up for that. customers are keeping their phones longer. the upgrade rates did tick up, and we have the lowest rates in the industry. but they started to normalize. i signaled that are iphone sales were strong, and they were and you saw in the numbers. caroline: so great to have you. come back soon. he is the t-mobile ceo. we will be joined by sentinel one's chief investment security officer to discuss concerns around deepseek's model. this is bloomberg technology. ♪

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caroline: microsoft and openai are investigating whether deepseek used data output from openai's technology and was obtained by an unauthorized manner. this is all according to sources. deepseek and the high flyer hedge fund it has started have not commented so far. let us discuss it in the data privacy concerns with alix stamos with the chief security officer at sentinel one. is openai and other ai labs right to be concerned about their ip? alex: i think they are. there are a lot of people that doubt the claim that deepseek was able to build such an

incredibly capable model with such little compute and low cost as they claim. there are some great breakthroughs. they published a paper that demonstrated great breakthroughs in both training costs and inference. inference is what you do when you are running the model for people to use and they had legitimate breakthroughs that to their credit they have documented that other people will be able to use. there are a lot of people who believe that they utilized openai's model running up in azure as well as meta's open source models to build deepseek and that is what is being investigated. mike: is there anything that microsoft and other open -- and openai and other providers can do to prevent this from happening again if not deepseek then perhaps another competitor from china? alex: this is the challenge.

microsoft's business model is that you can go to microsoft azure and open up an account and you can ask them to create a private copy of the openai models that you can use for your own purposes. this is how microsoft plans on monetizing their multibillion-dollar investment in openai. that is a great thing for them and a great thing in theory for openai and the customers. you can have a version of openai that in theory does not expose model weights to the customer and does not expose the customer's private enterprise data. what has happened is that people have figured out ways where you can ask a model many millions or billions of questions to suck the data out of it. imagine you have an ancient and wise professor and you ask them many questions and then effectively become a copy of

that professor. that is what can happen except at machine speed. you can do that over days, weeks, or months. and that is a business model that microsoft is operating. detecting that behavior might be possible but that is what we are selling. i think they are going to look into what deepseek did but it will be a cat and mouse game to determine whether somebody is actually utilizing the models in the way that microsoft wants them to and gets paid for and whether or not they are copying those models. caroline: we want to ask you about the detail of concerns and privacy. teresa payton joined us a former cio for the white house. here is what she had to say. >> this is an untested app. i would caution people not to caution people to put too much proprietary company information into it until there is an opportunity to do something

called ethical hacking or testing of the actual app and learning more about how is the data treated, where is it stored and how do the algorithms work. it is open source but things need to be put through their paces. caroline: deepseek was the number one downloaded and we also now have alibaba announcing its latest powerful ai via -- ai novel. should similar reticence be used? alex: this is where it gets complicated and we need to be careful to separate out two different things. there is the deepseek app that people are downloading. that data go straight to china. if you are downloading deepseek or going to its website and typing in a query, that data go straight to china and is available to that chinese company and is available to the chinese government without a problem. absolutely, companies should not be allowing employees to download the deepseek app into

the phone. if you download the open-source model rates that does not go down to china. there are some risks and they are pretty much theoretical. the model weights do have an ideological twist towards the ccp. so if you ask about tiananmen square it will not answer or create a winnie the pooh story about xi jinping. so, it corresponds to the rules that the chinese government has created about the ideological consistency about ai. that is not a security risk. that being said, there are interesting ideas that people have come up with about backdooring ai when it is used for security sensitive uses. that is not a -- as big of a deal. a more interesting question for enterprises using the model weights are the legal issues. if it turns out that it was trade-off of meta or openai's

models, what does that mean for the legality? deepseek has open-source there's but they do not have the reality to get rid of the legal issues. openai is being sued for their use of traina date -- training data. this is one of the issues. the intellectual property issues have not been solved. we are dealing with 18th, 19th and early 20th-century copyright ideas and trying to apply them to 20 problems. the legal system is years behind with the cutting edge in technology. mike: sentinel one chief information security officer. thank you. we will cover deepseek's impact with andrew feldman. this is bloomberg. ♪

mike: not all hardware providers are worried about deepseek. the partner of nvidia that sells chip testing equipment just lifted its four year full cap -- forecast, 40% in anticipation of spending. it downplayed the impact of deepseek's big debut. andrew feldman, ceo of a company building computer systems for a deep learning patients. you are trying to go toe to toe with a big competitor, and that is nvidia. what do you draw in terms of an underdog story with deepseek? andrew: i think this is an enormously exciting moment and sends multiple powerful messages. they used less compute and fewer

people and produced something quite impressive. now, that is a reminder that those of us who were underdogs and competing against the 800 pound gorillas in the industry, small teams of hard-working people with big ideas can produce industry changing results. that is what we do. caroline: they used to. they used inference offerings from you. what do you see and what have you taken on in amounts of sheer necessity that they need in this moment? andrew: sure. we are now in beta with our deepseek offering. and as your last guest said, there are two ways. you can use it through their app and i think he is correct that that data you can assume goes right to china. or you can use it through a company like us or perplexity or a collection of others offering the model. and we, of course have all sorts

of protections for your data so you can be assured that it will go nowhere. there is a tremendous demand for this type of model. one of the things that separated this model from previous models was its ability to reason and qlogic. those types of models in particular outperform the other models. and they do that by using more compute during inference. and this is something that the whole industry has been grappling with and we are the fastest at this. what it means for the user is a better experience, quicker answers and less waiting and that is what is moving the customers right now. mike: you had been planning an ipo and do you have an update? and we understand that an interagency panel has been reviewing all of this. do you have an update there? andrew: i do not.

but i think that the deepseek model was put out right around trump's inauguration and i do not think that was an accident. i think this was an effort to communicate at the geopolitical level to the u.s. that the previous administration's regulations had not worked. that the chinese engineer was capable of doing extraordinary things, even in the face of the regulations imposed by the previous administration. caroline: what is so interesting about this? you talk about the geopolitics and the timing used with hauwei -- huawei. many think there is anxiety around g 42 and the overseas locations. how do you tackle that in this environment? andrew: we have a strategic partnership with g42, which is a

national champion ai company for united arab emirates. they are one of the u.s.' staunchest allies in the middle east and they have a long track record of supporting u.s. interests and being good allies. one of the things that deepseek has taught us is that we will need the community and our allies. that we thought perhaps the u.s. could run this alone and the computer companies like nvidia and amd, and we had the openai of the world. but i think what we are learning is that we will need the entire u.s. ecosystem in this ai battle. caroline: thank you so much for joining us. come back when you have a bit more news on the ipo potentially coming up. kristen howell joins us to talk about what she will be looking for. and remember an activist

investor and what she makes of elon musk's involvement in government and the german government. this is bloomberg technology. ♪

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caroline: welcome back. i am caroline hyde in new york. mike: i am mike sheppard in san francisco. caroline: there is some anxiety ahead of the fed and earnings with microsoft, meta and tesla after the bell. the bitcoin is getting a risk off trade. maybe because of what trump media has announced, a pairing into financial services. they are launching a fintech brand with -- in collaboration with charles schwab. sally bakewell here to discuss. are we expecting this from an entity related to the president? sally: we could have.

he just launched his trump coin and declared himself a huge supporter of cryptocurrency. he has the crypto president. it is not a huge apprise that trump media is diving into financial services world with this investment. it is notable that donald trump actually transferred his shares in trump media last month to a trust which is controlled by his eldest son so he no longer directly owns what he has the sole beneficiary of that trust. so i think this is an example of how the trump empire is deepening its push into crypto and fintech. it is interestingly timed because just last week trump made comments about traditional banks and how he said that they were effectively d banking conservatives. he made a barb at the bank of america and ceo as well as the ceo of jp morgan. he has a big fan of the crypto and fintech world. mike: in effect, is the trump

media group trying to create something that elon musk has dreamed about for all of these years? a one-stop social platform with everything, messaging, finance and you name it? sally: we know that trump media is investing $250 million in the effort and that money is in custody by charles schwab which will advise it on investments in strategy and offer separately managed accounts, etf's and other crypto and bitcoin related products. getting into the financial services space is a lot -- is something that a lot of companies have done. x announced that it is partnering with the -- with visa on the digital wallet to be this everything app that musk has talked about. we have seen amazon in financial services as has apple with the wallet. it is a difficult world to enter

and a lot of incumbents such as zelle and venmo that holds portions of the market but equally a lot of companies want to diversify their revenue and a lot of companies want to do that. mike: thank you so much. tesla releases its fourth-quarter earnings later today and investors will be closely watching for information on new products and sales volume and they want to know how elon musk's new role in the trump administration is impacting the electric vehicle maker. let us bring in kristin hull, the founder of nia impact capital. this is a moment for summary like you. have sales numbers earlier this month from the company. we see the new president pulling away the ev subsidies and the ceo of tesla himself quite distracted by cut -- by politics. these are choppy waters for any

company. how is tesla going to navigate them? kristin: this is a tricky company and all investors are watching for these earnings. we want to see that there is a commitment to growth and an ability for execution. and we have questions. can the ceo execute on these and do we have a board that will support the growth that we will see? mike: what are you looking for in particular when it comes to the business including self-driving and perhaps some of the other businesses that have emerged for tesla including ai and robotics? kristin: that is a good question because as investors we want to see growth and a plan and guidance. and what we know from the earnings reports from the past is that consistently there will be surprises so we can expect that. we want to see sales growth in their main revenue source. and yet, you are up dropping in

popularity. actually worldwide tesla has been dropping in popularity. we have competition coming up with regular automobile makers as well as some of the chinese that are coming in. it is a complicated terrain for tesla to navigate. we will want to see that there is a ceo in control with a plan. caroline: you are so important in terms of a voice because you are an activist investor. your questioning often the role of elon musk and the policies he invokes and the way he acts. notably at the moment tesla does not seem to be related to fundamentals. the shares have doubled since the last time we got earnings and the numbers have not been great since then. instead this is a proxy on elon's closeness to politics. how do you distinguish that for yourself as an investor? kristin: thank you for the question and this is a complicated company, particularly when the ceo is as

involved in the federal government as he is. often times if there is a role granted that you would drop your current day job and we are not seeing that happening. we do mean that -- we do believe that every company deserves a full-time ceo so we have a lot of questions. we have questions about how tesla will attract and retain and promote top talent because as we know this is an innovation company and innovation does derive from really loyal client base both on the client side and the employee base. we are looking to see how is the company going to manage this? caroline: for years since you first bought into tesla you have been trying to communicate with the company and pushing against the activities whether it conserves -- concerns around anti-dei, and certain perceived anti-semitic comments and there is also the latest when we come to the concerns around just years recently made around the

inauguration made by elon musk and his support of idf, which is a right wing group in germany. nothing seems to matter when you go into a shareprice that is up and to the right. kristin: you bring up interesting points. this company does seem to stand alone as far as its memeness. other companies would not get the same reactions with that type of ceo and those types of behaviors. we are looking for the long-term possibilities. when you have such a controversial ceo, we are seeing that sales are dropping. popularity is dropping and the brand has been damaged. so how is the board and the rest of tesla going to step in and see sales growing when we are having a lot of controversial issues. as i pointed out we are seeing not only to clients where i live in california, many are switching to rivian and other ev

brand specifically based on the brand and some of the issues that they see that they do not want to be associated with. we are seeing that for employees. who will want to work for tesla in such a volatile environment? these are questions that investors have. mike: it has been a year since tesla dropped diversity and inclusion language and we have seen since then other companies and the federal government following suit in some fashion or another. do you see this changing at all and what pressure will you be able to apply to tesla at upcoming meetings? kristin: for all of our companies we want to see strong human capital management. whether you call it dei or supporting your employee base we want to see tesla and other companies hold their employees on the asset side of the balance sheet rather than the expense side. we want to see that tesla is showing that they will invest in their employee base.

again to execute on all of the innovation they have promised they need strong and loyal employees. whether it is called diversity, equity, and inclusion or merit-based hiring we want to see that investment in the transparency around that. with tesla we have been asking them to remove forced arbitration from employee contracts because that conceals a lot one is going on for managers and investors for -- as well as employees. caroline: thank you so much for joining us today. do not forget to check out the bingo card for this round of tesla's earnings. you can work out what words he used and how many times and if they are in line with that card. tiktok still needs a u.s. buyer to avoid a ban. the 75 day extension runs out in april. we will talk about the all-cash bid that he has put together with none other than mr. beast.

this is bloomberg technology. ♪

caroline: this is bloomberg technology and you are looking at a live shot of the principal room. tuning to special coverage of the fed decision at 1:30 p.m. eastern time. you do not want to miss it. mike: could a widely popular influencer become an owner in a hugely popular social media platform? mr. beast is reported to be speaking about multiple groups of investors about buying tiktok's. one of those groups is led by the ceo of employer.com. jesse joins us now. thank you for being with us. how involved is mr. beast with your group's bid? has he fully committed to

joining your team? jesse: i think mr. beast as we said last week, we hope he joins as far as possible. we are excited to have him on and his group backing our bid among others as well. caroline: he has not formally signed on his seeing whoever wins? jesse: i think there are some articles that came out last week and mrbeast and his group are definitely signed on with our group but it is not exclusive. he can work with as many as possible. caroline: what about your bid, who else is involved other than yourself and potentially mrbeast? jesse: it is a great question. we are not a very large bid by any means. we are a bunch of technologists and founders and there's folks like david from roblox, as well

as nathan foley of anchorage among a bondage of others -- a bunch of others. they could stabilize tiktok and put it in a good place for users and data integrity across the united states population. we are excited about the group we have. it is a grassroots effort as opposed to the larger bids and we can have folks that will make a huge impact. we are really excited. mike: what have you heard back from bytedance and two at the company are you dealing with specifically? jesse: that is a good question. we have not heard back directly. it has been radio silence on their side but we look forward to chatting with them. it looks like there is some movement with different conversations we have had across a bunch of different parties. as of right now we are excited with the way things are trending and so, no direct comments with -- contact with bytedance so

far. caroline: really fascinating. roblox, i get that you want to be aligned with social media and discussion in groups and interaction of young people. you have major name in human capital. why are you interested in this asset? what change do you want to make? jesse: that is a good question. obviously the data background and that a flag -- affects roblox directly and they share the same values. and one of those is i have two young daughters who will soon be on social media and hopefully my goal and whoever wins, whether it is myself or another group, i hope that it is safe enough for people to feel comfortable for people like me, with my young daughters going on tiktok. and right now where the algorithm is set and how the data is being used, i would not feel that comfortable doing that thus far.

that has been my goal and my values and that is what i want to do with it directly. mike: president donald trump has made selling tiktok to u.s. buyers or reaching a deal a priority. what kind of contact have you had with the white house and what support are you getting from officials on your bid? jesse: we have an ongoing dialogue with the trump administration and we feel very comfortable in terms of how we have, through. we have already preset in terms of board of directors and subcommittees around finance and technology and everything else. we feel good and we have an all u.s.-backed team with all of the data and servers and technology. definitely it will be a challenge. but -- over from bytedance and move it here that we feel comfortable.

caroline: ultimately, it sounds like you are making one just for the good of humanity and for the good of your kids. you said and i think you accidentally said whoever wins out. so take this seriously. you have named significant people in this and use -- you yourself is a significant entrepreneur or founder. help us understand how serious the nature is and how much money you have behind it? jesse: so, definitely a very large bid. we basically have, i think the other public number which has been floated is $20 million by another group and ours is significantly higher, that offer. caroline: he tells us, ceo of employer.com. thank you for joining us. a slew of earnings after the

closing bell and what to expect. this is bloomberg technology. ♪

mike: microsoft and metea are -- meta are reporting after

market close. let us bring in ryan. meta and microsoft are two different stories. meta seems to be getting more of a pass, why is that? ryan: thank you for having me on. last week they came out and gave a new target that was significantly above what people are expecting and while a lot of ai spending has come under scrutiny. the stock rallied and it seems like the overall take away was that people view them as investing from a place of strength and an earlier amid all of the selloff and volatility related to deep she -- deepseek meadow rose again, a validation of its own aiu bottle which is open source getting a little bit of a bedroom deepseek which is another open-source model. a validation of their strategy. caroline: microsoft increasing an 11% increase in revenue and they have to vindicate their spending and whether openai is valuable since the deepseek

news. ryan: absolutely. they have disappointed based on their sharepoint does share price reaction and some worries about the strength of their cloud business and our people justify paying the high multiple especially compared to meta. that is a real focus. we saw a lot of weakness on the deepseek news and a lot of implications for how much money is being plowed into ai based on the traditional architecture. if deepseek is able to do it in a more cost-effective manner this changes some of the economics. caroline: going to be busy. moving on to two other companies. service now and ibm. let us get to it. software is having its moment because of deep speak -- deepseek, what do you expect? >> ibm, their method so far has been in their consulting business. everyone is watching their bookings because that is a good place to be with the picks and

shovels question because no matter what happens even if the customer does not buy it, ibm will help you set it up. that is a good set up. folks are watching for that as well as their own software business, largely. mike: on service now, genitive ai is a big part of their story. tell us what you are looking for when they drop? brody: the application software vendors were struggling a little as it relates to ai but with the agent moment there is more optimism, especially with deepseek with people saying our models getting cheaper. maybe that is scary if you are nvidia but if you are a company that will deliver those models to your customers, that is good. service now is at an all-time high and folks are -- it is down a little bit today yesterday it was at an all-time high. investors are excited about the potential for the application layer having its moment.

caroline: both have their moment in 2024. ibm up 30% more. service now up 50%. so, is it all about just talking up the ai narrative as much as they can? brody: that is a huge part of it. ibm had a great year last year because they were one of the rare react seller and stories. you could poke at their rate and say this is only 2%. their software business is accelerating and the idea that it would become a serious software contender five or six years ago was not the most popular take. today we have seen that it has played out. mike: is there any weak spot in either companies as they head into this afternoon that investors are going to be concerned about in particular? brody: they are both pretty big government vendors and obviously what does -- doge, if we cut off

the spending on unnecessary things, elon famously does not love to pay software bills at his own companies. so some investors have said is this going to be a concern when it comes time for a company like service now with sales so much in the federal government. caroline: i correct myself, service now is up 81% in 2024. great to have you across both of the earnings. that does it for bloomberg technology. do not forget to check in on all of the earnings or our podcast on the terminal as well as online on apple, spotify and i hard. this is bloomberg technology. ♪

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>> welcome to bloomberg markets. of course today is fed day so happy fed day. policymakers are set to make their decision in two hours with investors not just focused on jay powell but the first wave of big tech earnings. here are where things stand at midday with the s&p 500 down about .4%. you have technology shares and rates while financials are higher. speaking of, the mag seven losing 1.3%.