david: this is my kitchen table and also my filing system.

for much of the past few decades i have been an investor. the highest calling of mankind i've often thought was private equity. and then i started interviewing. i watch you interview because i know how to do some interviews. i've learned from doing my interviews how leaders make it to the top. jeff: i asked him how much he wanted, he said 250, i didn't negotiate and i did no due diligence. david: i have something i'd like to sell. and how they stay there. you don't feel inadequate being only the second wealthiest man in the world, is that right? largest sovereign wealth fund in the world is a sovereign fund of norway. it is overseen by nicolai tangen . he has a chance to oversee the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. i had a chance to sit down with him and ask what it is like to be responsible for a fund that large. tell us what norges investment

management does. nicolai: it has many facets. one is to lead investment activity. develop the organization. quite a comprehensive framework around it. working with the board, the ministry, the supervisory board. counselor ethics keeps us out of unethical investments. david: every sovereign wealth fund has someone running it but none other i am aware of has a superstar investor, a member of the giving pledge and someone who made a lot of money in the private sector. how did you come to do this job and leave your job running a successful hedge fund? nicolai: i had been running a company for 15 years.

i need to move on in life and do some other things. i was starting to apply to go back to university. and then this job came up and i thought, wow. it combines asset management, developing an organization and to do something good for the country so it was perfect. david: where did norway get all this money? one point $7 trillion is a lot of money. where did you get all this money? nicolai: [laughter] we have been drilling on the shelf for a long time. this was in a 1969 in the autumn on a cold day like this. this was for love's operating a platform called ocean viking. 2:00 in the morning, a platform chief was told to wake up the guy in charge. why are you waking me up at 2:00 in the morning? we found some oil.

it was the biggest find the world had ever seen offshore. it was announced to the norwegian population on christmas eve in 1969. david: is a leif erickson had stated norway it would be better for norway, right? he would have discovered the oil there. let's talk about the current investment environment. as we talk today president trump has been inaugurated in the u.s. are you worried about some of the america first policies he said he would pursue or does it not make a difference? nicolai: it is a complex question because we are a global investor. if we disregard all types of policies that can impact society and look at it from a pure financial point of view in the short-term it would be really good for our companies in america.

less regulation, more growth. that is positive. if there are a lot of tariffs, european companies will be hit by them so that is a negative. there is a question if the policies would be inflationary which would be bad news in the long term. david: let's talk about norges investment management. oil was discovered in 1969. when was this organization set up? nicolai: in 1996. the first deposit was 2 billion. it has grown to 20,000 billion. david: the money that comes in, you invested. it does that money go to every citizen or stay in the central reserve for use by the government? nicolai: they established a spending rule. you can only spend 3% of the

fund every year. the fund is so large it accounts for 25% of the state budget. i think it is very good to have the rule in place. david: 25% of a government's budget comes from what you do every year. nicolai: and my 700 colleagues. david: how many people work for you? nicolai: 100 in a new york, some in london and singapore and oslo. david: do people pay an enormous amount of your success? do people look in the newspapers and see how you are doing? nicolai: we have a ticker on our website that shows the real value of the fund and it is updated 13 times every second. david: that is a lot of pressure. nicolai: absolutely. david: your job is to oversee

several hundred people making investment decisions. do they come to you if it is a big decision and say we are going to put $100 million into something? nicolai: it is such a large firm. we have a very good investment mandate which we get from the ministry of finance and we follow that. we have decentralized mandates in the firm. david: do the people in norway criticize you saying you bought too much apple stock or not enough? nicolai: that is exactly right. we always make mistakes and it is always in the papers. [laughter] either you have too much or too little. when you own a bit of 9000 companies around the world there is always something going wrong somewhere and we always own it. david: today if i was looking for good investment ideas, what

is the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world, what would you say are a couple good ideas? nicolai: you want to be widely diversified across asset classes, geographies. it is very tough to do tactical asset allocation. the best thing to do is do the opposite of everyone else. if you were to do the opposite of everyone else it would be to sell the u.s. tech stocks, buy china, sell private credit, buy stuff that is out of fashion but it is tough to do. if you are contrarian and different from your benchmarks everyone will question your sanity. david: what about ai? nicolai: it has been fantastic. we have made a lot of money for the fund. the big american ai companies. i told people in norges just

before christmas when i asked how more efficient you are because of the new tools? on average, 15% more efficient. david: nvidia is still a good stock to buy? nicolai: that i don't know but for sure they make good products. david: when you look at your investment team, do they come in every week and say here's some ideas and you tell them yes or no or do you just listen? nicolai: in order to judge how they are doing they have to be accountable and you cannot interfere. i do not interfere in the process. david: in the u.s., esg and d.e.i. seem to be in less favored than they were two or three years ago. is that the case in norway? nicolai: no. david: you do not care about what the u.s. is doing? nicolai: there is clearly backlash. the policies are anchored in the parliament. we think it is important with

climate reporting and we think diversity is good. david: in most scandinavian countries there is concern about climate change and a lot of interest around renewable energy but you make your money from nonrenewable energy. you make your money from carbonized chemicals and fuels but you do not believe in that to some extent. how do you score that? nicolai: we believe in it and we believe the gas that norway produces is very important. it continues to be a big part of the energy supply and important for security. ♪

david: let's talk about your own background. you were not just working your way up in the government with

norges investment management, you were successful in the private sector. nicolai: i was born in a small town in southern norway that not many people have heard about. david: were your parents investment managers? nicolai: [laughter] my mother worked in the public sector with museums and art and my father was an entrepreneur. david: where did you go to school? nicolai: i started in norway and studied russian intelligent service. i went to wharton. i have a degree in art history and social psychology david: is it unusual for someone in norway to go to school at wharton school in philadelphia? when you went to wharton and said you were from norway, did people say where is that? nicolai: of course. david: did they make fun of norway and say you were a viking or something like that? nicolai: i was. [laughter] david: you graduate from wharton

and get other degrees. nicolai: the cool thing is you come from norway, it is all about being very humble and so on and then you come to wharton, which is like the opposite. [laughter] i went to class one day, what do you want to do? i want to conquer the world -- i did not say that, someone else did. people applauded. the mindset was different. david: you did not find much humility at wharton? nicolai: not so much. david: you graduated, did you go into the private sector right away? nicolai: i became an analyst and worked there for five years. i joined one of the earliest hedge funds in europe. david: where was it based? nicolai: london. . david: when did you set up your own hedge fund gekko nicolai: i took a break. i needed a masters in art history. i realized i was not very good at it. david: how do you know you are

not good at art history? nicolai: you get feedback from the professor that you are not the brightest. [laughter] i am better at looking at stocks than paintings. david: you built in our collection. nicolai: it is easier to buy art and write about art. david: how big was your own hedge fund before you stopped it? nicolai: just under $20 billion. one of the largest in europe. i'm proud of what we did. david: you have a $20 billion hedge fund you are averaging rates of return in the double digits. you got this opportunity to run norges investment management, did you say to your family i will not be making that much money anymore and we have to live more conservatively? nicolai: yes. david: what did they say?

were they happy? nicolai: yes. i have enough money. david: usually hedge fund managers want to buy airplanes and art. nicolai: i think that is a misconstrued perception of what happiness is. to me happiness is how much you have learned. some people measure success about how much money they have when they die. that is a total failure. the person with the most money when they die has lost, they do not have it. david: i did not realize that. [laughter] ok pay. you set up your hedge fund. when you left your hedge fund it do have other people running it? is it still around? nicolai: it is still around. it has been a great transition. they are doing better than ever. it is a total win-win.

when i left for the position in norway i had to give away my ownership stake so i gave it to a charitable foundation. david: you did so well that you actually joined the giving pledge, which means you have a net worth of at least $1 billion or so. are you the only person in norway who signed the giving pledge echo nicolai: there is one more. david: when you go to the meetings do you say i am giving away money or do people not talk to you about what you do now? nicolai: they talk about that, too. david: do you go to reunions at wharton? nicolai: i was on the board. david: they asked for contributions from time to time. nicolai: yeah. [laughter] i did give them a building david: the people in your class bragging about what they were

going to do, did you show up and say you did it without bragging? for five years you have been running this fund and done pretty well. now your term is up. you have another five-year term you could get. nicolai: i applied last week. david: do you have to apply or do you already have the job? nicolai: you have to apply again. david: did anyone else apply? nicolai: i think so. i don't know. [laughter] when it comes to this i am very humble. if they find someone else better at doing the job, he or she should get the job. it is a very important job. i have applied and i hope i get the extension. david: you are willing to do another five years? nicolai: yes. david: your compensation is modest compared to what you used to make. nicolai: it is a well-paying job

but it is a public sector job. david: any thought about going into politics and running for government positions? prime minister or something like that? nicolai: no. david: no interest in anything like that. suppose you do another five years. after 10 years i would probably assume that is enough. nicolai: i would love to go back to university at some stage. learn some more things. david: art history -- but you are not that good at that so you would do something else. what area do you collect art? nicolai: we have the biggest collection of nordic modernist art and be given to a museum last year. the new york times recently said it was one of the 50 most important places to go in2 205, so you will have to go. david: if someone is watching this and has never been to norway, what is great about

norway that would deserve their visiting? nicolai: the nature is unrivaled. it is like switzerland with a lot of sea around it and it is beautiful. you are close to the mountains, it is good for skiing and hiking. it is perfect. it is not so crowded. how many total people? nicolai: 5 million. david: when he was developing the nobel prizes, there were prizes given by swedish academies but he did not think the swedes were peaceful, loving people. he said the peace prize was given by people in norway. you have no interest in getting involved in international diplomatic things? nicolai: no. david: are your children interested in investing? nicolai: no. thank god for that. in my mind you do not want to follow your parents.

create your own destiny. you do not want to be measured against the success of your parents. i do not believe in inheritance. to inherit a lot of money is not a good thing. if you fail you are a total failure because you started with a lot of money. let them do what they want. david: today, are you worried about your borders because of what is going on in russia and ukraine? is that something you worry about with your investment appetite? nicolai: i am not worried about russia invading norway anytime soon. we are a member of nato. we border russia but since finland joined we feel stronger than before. learn, learn, learn. you have to believe in what you do. when things change, you have to change your mind and that is the rarest combination. ♪

david: sovereign wealth fund leaders, do they get together from time to time and exchange ideas? nicolai: we do. it is great. there is a lot of cooperation between the large funds. david: do you ever say, how did they get this job? nicolai: they are generally really smart. david: what are you most proud of having achieved in five years? nicolai: there are so many things that can go wrong. there have not been any major disasters and that is good. that is because of the great team we have. david: have you ever thought of running a norwegian tracking fund that lets people invest their money? nicolai: no. there have been talks about it but i would not do it. this is my last money job. david: you will not go back and

manage money again? nicolai: no. david: why not? nicolai: i have had this job and it is the most fun job in global finance and i do not think there is anything else out there. david: where did you meet your wife? nicolai: in a nightclub. [laughter] we were introduced through some friends. it was organized. the first time i asked her she said no. that is why i never take no for an answer. ♪

david: what would you say your biggest investment concerns are? you are running a $1.7 trillion fund. what are you worried about? nicolai: at the top of my list would be two things. one is inflation. there is an argument in a tight market when you decline supply or reduce supply of labor in the u.s., you -- these things can be inflationary. there could be a moment where even with a high level of government that people decide we want a higher coupon to lend to governments. you could see a stand up in interest rates. all the ai related stocks, the epicenter is taiwan.

you need to watch that. the thing that really scares us is the unexpected. whether it be a meltdown of nuclear reactors in japan, covid or a financial crisis, it is the things you cannot model that the rails markets. there will be a lot of them coming up. david: suppose i am interviewing you for your reapplication for this job. what would you say is the reason you deserve the job? you have done well? you like the job? what is the reason you should get this job? nicolai: the organization has done well, there is great teamwork, we have done a lot of great things. we are the most transparent fund in the world. there is always lower risk than changing. pros and cons, other people out there who are excellent. david: what do you do for

outside activities? are you a skier? nicolai: i spend a lot of time in nature, i walk in the forest, cross-country skiing, i picked mushrooms. david: you do what? nicolai: i picked mushrooms -- not the magic ones. [laughter] you walk around in the forest and you pick mushrooms and you cook them and make spaghetti. david: that is unusual. [laughter] wow. you strike me as a very happy person. i feel i do not find that many happy people in the investment world but you are pretty happy. how did you get to be so happy? nicolai: you have to figure out what makes you happy and i think people mistake that. they tried to make more money, try to buy more things. that is not where true happiness comes from.

it comes from spending time with friends and family and learning. i also do a podcast and i learned a lot through the podcast. david: if you are giving advice to someone watching about how to be a good investment manager, what is the greatest piece of advice you can give someone? nicolai: learn, learn, learn. the combination of being stubborn and agile. stick to your guns and believe in what you do but when things change, you have to change her mind and that is the rarest combination. david: you think humility is better than arrogance? nicolai: confidence humility is the magic. david: have you ever met warren buffett? nicolai: no. david: no interest? he has not called you for ideas? nicolai: i have not met him -- i met him briefly. david: is there one person who is a role model for you?

is there anyone you would say you have as a role model in the investment area? nicolai: it is difficult to not mention bill gates as a role model if you are a philanthropist. you make a lot of money and you are organized and structured in the way you give it away. i think that is really impressive. ♪

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