you know, in real simple

forms i say uncle sam should stay out of corporate and business compensation. i say the fasb accounting nerds should stay out of mark to market. just let the bull market recovery forces run. let free market capitalism breathe. and we've got a shot at a decent economic recovery and some wealth creation in stocks. dennis kneale, where are you headed this evening? >> we're going to talk about that great recovery and five thing is learned this summer. thanks a lot, larry. "cnbc reports" starts right now. tonight on "cnbc reports." the summer is over. you heard it on "cnbc reports" first. finished, through, done. so tonight, we're moving on to the fall. just like dennis called the recession over more than anyone else. >> this horrible, frightening recession is ending now. >> we're bringing in the back to school, back to work, back to business season before anyone else. on the agenda tonight, just

hoich money will flow into the narcotic from retail investors the next few weeks. the nasty health care battle focus. and how the backlash populism that swept through washington like a virus on the internet will affect american business. "cnbc reports" starts right now. get the real deal with dennis kneale. good evening. i'm dennis kneale. wl well, knock me over with a feather. i would have bet a bundle on a big tumble in stock prices today. retail sales unexpectedly fell a tiny bit. walmart seat zeals were bleak. jobless dlam clails went up a touch higher than expected. yet stock prices rose again. the dow now just two points away from 9400, up 36 today. nasdaq up seven, still above the 1,000 mark.

s&p up a bit to 2 09, just like the year. there's a lesson here. let's review it. all right, folks. you know i like to get out in front of the next trend. i'll start with this proclamation. it's august 14 and summer is over. we have a full show tonight, a half show tomorrow then i'm away for the next two weeks, all right? it's time to review. the things i learned this summer. lesson number one, nobody really know where is the markets are going. we're all just guessing. hint, today's surprise rise. lesson number two -- sometimes the experts are just plachb wrong. they hooted when i called this recession over on june 25. now they agree with me. they're hooting at me now for my belief in the great recovery. lesson number three -- often the events that we dread most turn out to be far less damaging than we feared. our healing in recent months shows that, guys. lesson number four.

in a data-diluted world, how we feel is even more important than what the numbers tell us. remember, you feel better first, then the economy turns up as a result. not the other way around. and lesson number five, this is the most important one. america is tougher and more engaged and resilient than h americans realize. moments after the bad news came out this morning, i started hearing from bears and bloggers. they were delighted. in thele markets open and stocks began to rise in spite of the headlines. when markets closed up today, i didn't hear from any of them. let's weigh in with some bulls and bears. we've got randy bateman and bearish scott redler. we also have paul bicochy and john brown of europacific capital. what about my lessons?

and what about a better recovery than anyone thinks. what about randy bateman? >> i think i agree with you. there's a lot of money sitting on the sidelines that are ultimately going to sink their way into the marketplace. i think the longer that this positive market force will move forward, i think that's going to draw more and more of that capital into play because the yields are just compelling. the price to book value is compelling and we're starting to see green shoots turn more into the sequoias. >> every time i expect a pause, the market pauses and then goes up. >> the power of emotion is a very powerful thing. you' seen these markets rise strongly, like almost 50%, based on hope and belief that the recession is ending and greed. the fact that that we don't want

to be left behind. it's gone very fast, very high in a short space of time. and meanwhile, earnings are down and revenues are down 15%. >> the expectation. i guess you think it's gone too far, too fast. >> back in march, opportunities were everywhere. we were very bullish. but now we need to be a little cautious. everyone is getting excited. everyone wants to get in now. it could be a tiny bit too late to just initiate positions now. i would rather see guys looking to get involved, buy on a pullback, not when we're getting multimonth high headlines and everyone is thinking they missed something. >> but what happens over at delta if the bull pak doesn't come until the start of next year? >> i think then we may see an abatement of the fear that's really driven the retail investors to the sidelines. the six is still between 3020

and 30 which is extremely high. there's still a tremendous amount of money pouring into cds and things of that nature. so what you have is a retail investor that's still very much on the sidelines. and if the market were to persist moving higher and we get more confidence coming out of the retail investment community, i think that could help put some momentum behind this market. >> i want to add something to that because the retail investor need to start thinking like the professional trader or investor. if they're not involved now and they're just jumping in because they hear things are much better and people have been making money they're going to go into the same habits they've been in. getting out when they're fearful, when they're scared. and then chasing it once we're up 48%. it's time for them to educate themselves. >> chasing the hot stock is always a sure way to problems in investments. this is what the risk is now. >> an one end i'm delighted the markets are going up. it lifts my own mood.

on the other hand, you got to worry about at what point is it too late to get in there. randy bateman, are the markets ever just wrong? so the economy is going to go back into that second tail spin that some people expect? and yet the stock market doesn't know that? >> the markets are always going to be a function of supply and demand. and that demand is going to come from human emotion, there's no question about it. but there's money starting to flow back into mutual funds on the equity side. and part of that is that just recently, we're starting to see a lot of statistics that are showing that professional investment managers are actually outperforming the market. the efficient market theer vi starting to go wayside now because managers have gotten more data. they've gotten more visibility in the marketplace. people are going to start to trust them again and think that they can add value and that's indeed what the statistics are telling them right now. >> if the bears are right and the economy is headed for a second big tumble and yet retail

investors keep flooding in. isn't that going to keep stock prices high despite the fact that the bears might be right in a longer run? >> i doubt that the retail money that's on the sidelines now will be enough to overwhelm the other forces that would drive this market lower. i mean, the reality is, if this market is going to correct, it's going to do so with or without the participation of retail investors. the problem that retail investors will be faced with like we talked about is getting too caught up in the emotion of the marketplace. they have to be vigilant in picking the companies that haven't moved 85% on the back of no earnings growth or have not seen an expansion of cash flow. >> john brown, what is your outlook for the fall? what is going to happen to stock prices generally in the fall? >> i think an extended downward diagonal. >> a downward diagonal? >> where do stocks go in fall? >> maybe three to five bear

markets on way to a serious erosion within two years. >> go ahead, scott, where are stocks going in fall? >> listen, you saw asia, the shanghai index just fall 10% like that. that's the kind of environment -- >> you talking a few days ago? >> within the last two weeks. they're 10% -- >> 5 in a single day and came back the next day. >> it came back a percent and went back down another 4.7%. down 10% overall in two weeks. that's the type of move that could happen once the rug gets pulled. >> how much was shanghai up in the previous 6 to 12 months. it doubled, right? >> that's where the growth is. we're more of a mature economy. >> more than doubled. a lot of the chinese stimulus money went straight in the stock market. >> you're still gettinging way ahead. but what happened was, anyone that bought that market on those highs -- >> go ahead, john.

>> but dennis, almost half of the government stimulus money in china went straight in the stock market. that's not very healthy. >> it's been pretty healthy for investors over there. go ahead. >> what i'm thinking if we do continue and you're right with a great recovery, you still need to be prudent on your entries. you can't buy into the excitement. anyone who bought the overseas indexes and are now 8% under wat water, they're not sure what they need to do from here. that's why it's a tricky time. >> if you hit a lotto ticket for 100,000 cash, it's just come into your bank account, where do you put it right now? >> i think you've got to go into the equity markets. the u.s. market or emerging market, i think that's the police it's going to be. we had bad news today. pretty significantly bad news with regard to the retail side of things. i think the predominance of data that's going to come out through the rest of this year is going to be positive data with regard to the economy.

that's going to stimulate a lot of people to get off the sideline, take those money in cds and money funds and start to invest. >> with that 100,000, put a third in now. don't put all in. >> i'm with you on that. >> so if we do pull in, you're prepared and you have a plan. don't put it all in one time. oh, i missed the boat, putting 100,000 in now. >> and put at least half of it in gold. >> i don't think you put any money in the market unless you leave it alone two years. i don't go for the short-term in-out, in-out stuff. >> that's going to be the market in the future, i'm afraid. going to have to be a lot more flexible than we've been in the half. >> dow million in 100 years. all right, thanks very much. appreciate you being here. next up, you see this here? this is a picture of andrew hall. andy hall. he's supposed to get a lot of

money for making citigroup a lot of money. but because of new rules and regulations from washington, he may not get it all. yes, you've heard the story, but wait until you hear this latest development. it is an outrage. i'm back in two minutes.

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>> how is it a washington lawyer is the pay czar deciding how much fat cats can earn? i i'm calling it the art of breaking the deal. the president hired kenneth feinberg. one man on his radar screen, andrew hall. that trader for citigroup whose contract is set to pay him $100 million because his small team churned out, like, $600 million

in profits for citi in the past year. and now andy hall is offering concessions just to avoid combat with ken feinberg. joining me is julia ruzinski, joe cat wince, republican strategist and erone brook. where to start. conservative or liberal. let me just go with liberal. julie, don't you think really that wall street is much better at figuring out the right pay practices than some lawyer who has no experience on wall street? >> actually, i think wall street is absolutely horrific in figuring out pay practices. especially when they're taking taxpayer dollars to fund their own pay. the situation with andrew hall is complicated. he set up a contract and it sounds to me he's entitled to what the contract stipulates. but sorry, they failed in the

past. i don't want to be spending my money on them anymore. >> joe? >> julie, if you want your taxpayer dollars to be well spent, make sure the company succee succeeds. and the best way for citigroup to succeed is for andrew hall to be paid and given an incentive to continue to succeed. these are the people that are going to bring the company back. the government has no right to try to regulate andrew hall's compensati compensation. >> where do you stand on this? >> if you talk about what should be done with the tax dollars, we shouldn't have pail bailed them out to begin with. andrew hall would have found a job elsewhere and not with citibank. we should be getting out of these companies as quickly as possible. the government has no job running american business. that is not the role of government. >> but once government has put government into the banks, does government then have a say in pay? i think government ought to loan the money to the banks, turn

away and leave them alone. >> if they don't like the way it's being done, sell their stock and get out. >> it should borrow money from the government and be left alone? no one else gets to borrow money from the government and -- >> everyone is borrowing money from the government. >> whether or not mr. hall is entitled to his money legally is another issue. >> when you get a loan for your law practice from a bank, the bank doesn't tell you how much you're allowed to earn. it doesn't tell you what color the carpeting has to be. >> but what the bank does tell me is that i've got to engage in -- i've got to engage my practice and move forward with my practice in a way that's going to be not risky, where my compensation won't be tied to some strategy that will make me a lot of money now -- >> go ahead, joe. >> why are you trying to punish andrew hall? he made $600 billion for the company. why should he be allowed to

receive -- >> i think we all agree -- i'll spak speak for myself. the issue is contractually sounds like he should get his money. the issue is what dennis asked early. should wall street get a blank check from the taxpayers. and as a taxpayer .pip said they screwed up their so badly, why should i give them more money to screw up even more? >> should the government be evolving itself in pay if the shareholders of the bank, when the bank lost 90% of its share value. if the shareholders don't repel, beyond why some government regulator -- >> because one third of citibank is owned by you and me the taxpayers. the piper calls the tune. i'm sorry for wall street and city bank, but that's the way it is. >> and even more important, the fact that the government wants to ensure we're not involving, we're not engaged in risky -- >> oh, the government knows risky -- go ahead. >> the government can regulate

risk? the government has no clue. these are the regulators who let everything happen for years and years and they didn't have a clue. now they know what risk is? >> tens of millions of americans kbet get checks from the government for a variety of things. i think let's all send our paychecks if in and get our government to sign off, it's okay how much money we make. >> i'm frankly offended the government has to bail out private corporations. i don't want my money spent on that either. we agree on that. what i don't agree on is now there's an implicit backstop for citi because they're too big to fail. if we're backstopping them, and we are, then i want my money -- >> then let's fight against the backstop. >> two things. first of all, let's remember something. this was not aimed at bailing out the little banks. we were afraid if a couple of

these big banks failed it would domino around the world and it would kill business. business couldn't get finance. let's remember that. it wasn't a bailout for the banks. it was a bailout for the economic system. then the banks, some of them have paid back that t.a.r.p. so it's not like the banks have been ripping off government. and then third, this just in. i love saying that on tv because i'm new at this. this just in from the washingtonpost.com. big banks may have to pay more for regulation. the obama administration is planning a broad reworking of the fees financial firms pay for their federal regulation, increasing the rates for big companies while easing the burden for smaller ones. now, this is something that people miss. we're upset about the government program, guys. but when goldman got a government guaranteed loans to raise $20 billion or something, they paid $600 million to government for that guarantee. and so the banks do kind of pay their way. >> so why is government trying to get in the business of banks? why is government trying to regulate composition?

when it does so many things poorly, why would they want to the -- >> tonya? >> rather than turn this into anti-government which is always a bad rant. i think we should look at the facts here. what the czar is intended stood to make sure these companies who we bailed out are not embarking upon risky short-term strategies where executives make a lot of money for engaging in risky behavior in the short term. >> the government is the ones engaging in the most risky behavior. lowering interest rates to 0% is riskier than anything bank requests can do. the government got us into this mess and it's not the job of government to bail companies out. >> that's the last comment. i have one last rejoinder. i just want you guys to remember that the bankers who messed this up. they paid dearly. their stock portfolios plunged 90%. these guys got hammered and

killed. that's the best way to make sure they don't take on too much risk next time. we've got a lot more ahead tonight. it's a real deal favorite. health care, or as i'm calling it tonight, death care. we've had some of our staff read through the plan line by line. but up next, rolling the dice in vegas. vegas, baby. it's been beaten down, but it has a unique way of coping. and it's a lesson for the rest of this great nation of ours. he ran off with his secretary! she's 23 years old!

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♪ las vegas is at the very epicenter of the economic earthquake. huge hotel construction projects sit idle. yet people in vegas are undaunted and they're gambling on a comeback. in the new issue of "time" magazine, joe stein takes a visit to the heart of the american dream. a vegas-style rebirth. as a former magazine editor myself, we always take a story and make it better. nice job, bill.

it's a nice read. the dismount really grabbed me. this is a town built on hopes and dreams and people don't give up hopes and dreams when there's a recession. i think it's a great lesson for america, what do you say? >> i think in las vegas it's always the next roll of the dice that's going to turn you around. the lesson here is that they accepted their losses, so to speak and got back into it. they got to a clearing point or are getting to that point. hotels have gone bust. it's got the highest foreclosure rate in the nation, but they're really busy at getting over that and getting on with things. >> your writer describes it, a $500 he toll rooms, 750 square feet are going for $190 at the wynn and a gift certificate. he says business is kind of booming actually in the middle of this terrible slump. >> what happened was they got real about the prices. the thing about the hotel is you

can slash prices really quickly. when i was there in january, they hadn't quite done that. steve wynn said okay, what's it going to take to get people back in town? they hacked prices pretty severely. and as a result, the occupancy rates went up ten percentage points into the 80s. >> that's a huge change, too. and one thing it shows, as much as we keep reading from the experts that the consumer is dead, the consumer is done. he's too leveraged. you give him a little bit of incenti incentive, and some people start to open up the wallet. >> well, one thing that's happening is people are traveling. i was talking to someone at holiday inn. hay ear out there. they want to travel. they want to have a vacation, but they're very particular. they're looking for discounts and you've got to meet their price other wise they're not going to go to your place. >> i read this story, this guy joel stein, he must mention

strippers six or seven times. i hope you carefully reviewed his expense account. an awful lot of strippers in the story pop i'm waiting for it and isle be looking at miscellaneous expenses. >> there you go. there let's get the real deal on vegas from our bulls and bears. randy bateman, scott, paul and john brown. you seem kind of conservative. what do you think of vegas? >> well, conservatively a gambler. i have been to vegas. but this is built on a hope and a dream. it's divided between gamblers and investors. those people who recklessly gamble their money in the stock markets in the near future in my view will be cleaned out .. and those who are very prudent and invest their money carefully will make actually great deals of money and will be really quite rich at the end of the recession. >> scott, what about gambling on

casino stocks thems. a lot of them went way low, like below a dollar some of them. then they came back to $12, what do you say? >> a lot of the casino stocks were pricing in projects that weren't going to get finished. they were talking about macau. now credit is easing a bit and so much money has already sunk in. they're taking the bankrupt trade out of it and now the stocks are coming up. wynn is probably the class of the view. then you have lvs and mgm. with traffic increasing in vegas, those stocks are starting to get some attention and starting to break out into more normalized levels of where they should be tradelinging. >> do you think casino stocks ought to be sold? >> i think lvs is a 20% short position. and they were on the run today. lvs was halted and they came out with a new financing plan for the city center that excited investors. that stock was 80, 90, 100?

and it's $14. >> lvs is las vegas sands. that's sheldon addison, right? >> i believe so. >> he's a hero of capitalism. i think he doubled up on his bet. went into his own pocket to keep the company afloat and now they're coming back. i wish them back. got to wrap this thanks. there's still a lot more ahead tonight on "cnbc reports." >> it's the debate of the year. health care in america. >> it's unfair. the government hasn't done it the right way yet. >> people are legitimately angry. >> the ceos and the people of these insurance companies who don't know a thing. >> straight ahead -- the next round in the fight. we serve as the ring. we're back in two minutes .. so, what's the problem? these are hot. we're shipping 'em everywhere. but we can't predict our shipping costs. dallas. detroit. different rates. well with us, it's the same flat rate. same flat rate. boston. boise?

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ick today.nouncer: yep, it's that easy, >> death care, death panels. that's how americans describe an end of life provision in the house version of the health care reform bill. the furor over this bill has hundreds turning out to town hall meeting ace cross the country. here are just a few folks i ran into at a meeting in new jersey yesterday.

>> i don't like them making a decision whether i live or die. >> i'm in my 70s, and i don't want to be given a pill to make me comfortable. o. >> if they in any way destroy medicare, i would be devastated. >> those reactions are why u.s. senators today say they will not include this controversial end of life care in their version of the health care bill. but advocates argue the government could save $91 billion over ten years by better managing end of life care. folks, here's the one bad thing about this entire story line. i really think that end of life care is something we've got to talk about more honestly. about 85% of your entire life's medical costs at the end of life. medicare is going to pay a

doctor for an appointment so once every five years he can talk to his patients for end of life. i don't think government should mandate that. i have a doctor. he should be talking to me anyway. >> i think the government shouldn't be involved in this process at all. it should be a decision between the patient, the doctor and the insurance company that the patient has. if you have enough money to keep yourself on a machine and you can run it for 20 years, all the power to you. >> tonya? >> again, with all due respect, life and the american is not an ayn rand novel. >> it seems to be unfolding like an ayn rand novel. >> "atlas shrugged" is my favorite book and not at all. but the bottom line frankly is that the sad thing about this provision is it was so terribly distorted by partisans, people like sarah palin who said this was going to result in the government trying to kill people.

this was just all made out to be a big fat lie that completely confused people. >> so you take this out of the bill and now it will get passed, right? because that's the only reason why it was opposed because sarah palin told a snib. >> one thing i have to disagree with you on is the legislation is not mandatory at all. it is voluntary. all it means you and i can go speak to a doctor and when we're 65 and older we can talk about potential possibilities of what happens when we're too -- >> why do you need that in the bill? >> because right now medicare is not paying for it. that's why. >> this is socialized medicine. this is what happens when big brother gets involved -- >> that's medicare! >> the intentions are good. jul julie, if it was one of you all good folks trying to do the health care it would probably be just fine. but at the end of the day, you

have -- >> joe, i love yoen i have frems respect for you but when you tell me this is socialized medicine, the government is taking over your medicare, the government runs medicare. what are you talking about? >> i'm talking about -- the money in the bill set aside for comparative evaluation research, which it has a formula that says -- wait a second. it has a formula that says it's the cost of treatment divided by the number of years the person has for treatment. if you're going to live a long time you get the treatment. if you live a short time, you don't get the treatment. >> you guys have to stop doing that. the purpose of that provision is to make sure -- hang on a second. the president elect of the american medical association made it clear the purpose of this provision was simply to make sure that doctors are paid for their time. the free markets like doctors being paid for their time. and that's all that it is. >> these kinds of provisions, once the government takes over,

it's going to affect young people as well as old people. everyone is going to be determined by some utilitarian function fk of how expensive it is to keep a person alive. what kind of treatment they should be or shouldn't be gettings. >> do you want to get rid of medicare altogether? >> do you want your grandmother -- >> that's just not accurate, joe. you know that's not accurate. >> wait a minute. i have to step in on something here. here's the thing. everyone is upset that any kind of legislation might lead to rationing of care. might i just submit that what we need most of all is rationing of care. what we need is a more reasonable approach so that you don't spend millions upon millions of dollars keeping alive people who are going to die very soon anyway. >> my grandfather passed away a few years ago. he did not know what his end of life wishes were.

i wish we knew. i wish he had an opportunity to consult with his doctors before he became incapacitated. this provision is exactly what that stipulates. this is exactly what it does. it does nothingless than that. >> my doctor can't decide to take his own time out to talk to me about such an important issue without wanting to bill medicare, then my doctor ought to just go jump in a lake, man. >> you're talking about medicare payments. we have breaking news live in los angeles. as the media rating system, the nielsen system may be about to change dramatically. >> a consortium is in the works between the major media con gram rats and also some of the advertising agencies like wpp groups to create a new system to measure media across all the platforms, especially to cushion

on new media platforms. obviously nielsen dominates on traditional media, on television. but nel sen doesn't go where these companies want to go. nielsen hasn't been able to do this. so this consortium is very much in the works. we're talking about nbc universal and disney, which sources tell me are among those to be most likely to be part of the consortium when they're completed but nothing is finalized yet. a lot of them could drop out before anything is final. in terms of timing some of these companies tell me they're looking to get this done by mid to late september, but it all depends on what happens in terms of the negotiations. so dennis, this is still very much up in the works but we'll keep you posted. >> thanks a lot, julie. appreciate it. and folk, let me just tell you something. i want any new ratings system to get my ratings up. they're simply too low. i've watched nielsen 20 years.

they'll come up with rival services and this plan will get nowhere. next up, my heroes of capitalism. julie, you are not on the list. i'll give you a hint, though. it's two men with one name. i'm back in two. and shoot me an e-mail. cnbcreports@cnbc.com. go ahead, guys, let me have it. [ engine revving ]

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>> got some more breaking news just in here. let's get to darren rovelle on the news line. >> reporter: michael vick has gotten out of prison about 85

somedays ago. there was a question as to whether any nfl team would sign him. he was given an exclusive to "60 minutes" that would air this sunday. it wasn't clear if any team would sign him before this. and espn is now reporting the philadelphia eagles have signed michael vick. the nfl quarterback to a two-year deal. it's going to be an interesting situation as far as what the reaction is going to be from sponsors, from season ticket holders. and obviously the philadelphia eagles decide that it's worth taking a chance because michael vick must be talented enough. of course, he's not going to be their starting quarterback. they have donovan mcnabb, but enough of a project that this is a risk worth taking. >> this is a kind of a real shocker, isn't it? america, we kind of love dogs so when you're put in prison for mistreating dogs because you ran a dog fighting ring of those pit bulls, i imagine peta is going to go wild over this, aren't they? >> yeah, he was the most hated

man in all of sports certainly. and, you know, he has over the last five days spoken at two events for the humane society. those these are the things he's going to have to do. anyone who hates him and who is going to be his critics he has to align himself with. and i assume the philadelphia eagles are going to help make that connection so that anyone who will hold up signs of protest or try to do what they can, try to be their friend. >> which nfl team -- >> it's interesting it happened before. before the "60 minutes" interview, before we could even hear from him. his last apology was before he went to prison. >> which team, is it the redskins that have the dog pound? we're going to see all kinds of -- >> yeah, the cleveland browns. >> the cleveland browns have the dog pound. that will be interesting thing to see. all right. all right. and let's bring in the real deal squad to discuss this.

we've got julie roginsky, joe watkins. you're a philadelphia guy. are you liking this michael vick move. >> am i smiling dennis? is there a great big smile? i'm smiling because i think this is going to be great for the philadelphia eagles. it's a great franchise and michael vick is going to be a great addition to the philadelphia eagles. he's a talented guy. he paid his debt to society. and at the end of the day, let he or she without sin cast the first stone. >> do you own dogs? >> not recently. >> you're a cat person, aren't you? >> i'm a new york giants fan and joe, i expect nothingless of your team than to hire a guy like this. >> my, my, my. i . >> i say look, he paid his debt to society. my dog is going nowhere near philly fans or michael vick. i don't know who's worse.

i want an animal rights pay czar that's going to take a quarter of his salary and donate it to an appropriate rescue organization. >> i introduced protection of animals legislation and therefore i think it's an abhorrent thing. but i would rather see a man who repents. >> i believe darren mentioned he's doing speeches for the humane society which we thought was real wonderful. but it turns out, he did that -- a guest came on, he did that to stick it to peta because peta got the people to file the charges. so he went to the rival group, the humane society. so one wonders how sincere it is. so let me say something else here. i don't want to be on the side of a dog abuser, but in the south, pit bullfighting and dog fighting is very much a cultural thing. they didn't look at it in the same way that regular americans look at it, that it was direct cruelty to animals.

some people felt like in some ways there was almost a racist element to the prosecution of bt busting white guys who are doing big dogfighting rings. and what do you think of that? >> well, you know, honestly, cruciality to animals is a bad thing. regardless of who does it, it's a bad thing. without regard to the color of the person, people who mistreat animals ought to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. we have here michael vick, somebody who paid his penalty back to society and should be forgiv forgiven. >> he did pay his debt. but is there sometimes a p.r. so bad you can't even bother to hire the guy? >> i think that's the philadelphia eagles' decision to make. i personally wouldn't hire him, not because of this, because he's an unstable guy. who knows what's going to be next. he knew it was against the law. he did it. he got into trouble. >> he's a good football player, though. >> hang on, one at a time, folks. >> he has a right to get a job and the philadelphia eagles have

a right to hire him. some of the fans have a right not to show up because they don't like him. >> i would say that you're wrong. michael vick showed that he didn't have any regards for the wild but maybe he just didn't like government. he should be entitled to do whatever he wanted. >> dennis, what's going to happen? he's probably going to end up like john rocker, he played baseball for atlanta. he's going to implode. >> go ahead. paul? you want to get in? >> i think what you have here is an interesting dilemma because just a few days ago it was announced that dante stallworth, he had a vehicular manslaughter charge, suspended for a year. that sort of got swept under the rug. and michael vick, it's tough to compare the two crimes, but i do think that sometimes we do some down much harder on a guy like michael vick. in this country, we love a redemption story more than anything. i think he may be fairly

surprisingly well received. >> isn't this something wrong though about backing down harder on a guy who is on animal charges ban a guy who accidentally killed a person? >> i agree completely. i don't think -- i don't think that dogfighting should be illegal. i think it's horrible. i think it's immoral. >> but you don't think it should be illegal? >> that's a whole other issue. >> another show. >> i am a strong believer in -- >> animals and small children. >> individual rights. >> this is a. animals and small children. >> guys, here's the thing, let me tell you a secret if you all talk at the same time, the viewers can't understand. please stop doing it. go ahead, julie. >> well, all i will say is i'm sorry but i do have a dog who is like a child to me. but that's not even the point. >> then take care of it. >> i have taken care of it. have you seen what these dogs look like when michael vick was done with them? >> i think it's horrible, it's

immoral, it's wrong. >> it's what he used to do. he doesn't do it anymore. >> it's the job of government to defend human beings. it's doing the opposite, unfortunately. >> it's not the job of government to defend dogs who are being beaten and kicked? >> he served his time. >> michael vick is going to be on dog parole. >> he served his time. >> it's up to the government to uphold the law. he served his time. he was young and dumb. we've all done dumb things when we were younger. obviously this was an extreme. i'm a dog lover. i've had dogs all my life. you know what, philadelphia is a tough town. they're not going to give it to him easy. he's going to go in there and prove himself. america loves a good comeback. >> it's bad to abuse dogs. worse to abuse human beings. at the end of the day michael vick has paid his debt to society. i think he's going to bring philadelphia eagles to the super

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one final word tonight on quarterback michael vick, the guy abused the dogs and now joined the philadelphia eagles. forgiveness. thanks for watching tonight. we'll see you tomorrow at 8:00.