investors and creates jobs. and occupy obama. the president once again bashes millionaires and billionaire, just in time for mayday. and forget the headlines. it may be a stalled speed economy, but america is not in decline. please keep the faith. "the kudlow report" just moments away. they say money never sleeps. neither does jim cramer. follow @jim cramer on twitter. >> i like to say there is always a bull market somewhere. i promise to try to find it just for you right here on "mad money." i'm jim cramer. see you tomorrow. lawrence, huge show tonight. what do you have? >> all right, jimmy, we're going to defend apple's supply side tax planning. good evening, everyone. i'm larry kudlow. this is "the kudlow report." once again, president obama gives a highly divisive class warfare speech. 1% versus 99%.

soak the rich. occupy wall street. oh, my gosh. all this in front of the afl-cio building trades union today. here is the amazing thing. nott once in the speech did he mention the keystone oil pipeline where hundreds of thousands of blue collar jobs would be created. in full reelection mode, obama never even mentioned it. instead, he was too busy bashing successful people. in just a moment, the dnc and the rnc are going to face off on the president's mayday preview. also this evening another new york sometimes piece on business, this time targeting apple for legal tax planning. now, folks, the world's largest company paid $8 billion in taxes last year. they're responsible for 47,000 jobs in the u.s. probably another 250,000 support jobs. wouldn't you leave for a low-tax state yourself? where is that news? plus, there is a key

economic debate tonight. should we be scared of an economic down shift, or is all this talk of america in decline just that, only talk. all right. we begin with the president's speech. it's unclear if he was in presidential mode or campaign mode or what. either way, he unleashed another soak the rich volatile and class warfare. listen to mr. obama early today. >> if you ask them what is their big economic plan in addition to tax cuts for rich folks, it's dismantling your unions. >> that's just one of the lines from the president who was cheered by union members with chants of "four more years, four more years." cnbc's chief washington cold front john harward joins us from the white house with details. good evening, john. >> reporter: good evening, larry. well talked about the ramping of election rhetoric especially since rick santorum dropped out of the race. we got a full dose of that today. republicans, of course, have been attacking the president for bankrupting the country without creating jobs, without

generating strong growth. he hit back hard today in a speech to building trades union members, going after republicans for their sense of priorities. >> republicans in congress would rather put fewer of you to work rebuilding america than ask millionaires and billionaires to live without massive new tax cuts on top of the ones they've already gotten. now what do you think will make the economy stronger? given another tax break to every millionaire and billionaire in the done, or rebuilding our roads and our bridges and our broad band networks that will help our businesses sell goods all around the world? >> now larry, even though economic issues are expected to decide this election, they're not the only elements of the campaign dialogue. today we saw mitt romney hit back against the president's video, which was released a couple of days ago taking credit for going after osama bin laden, raising questions about whether mitt romney would have done the same. mitt romney today said at a campaign event that even jimmy

carter would have made the decision to take out osama bin laden. and at a white house news conference later, the president pointed in return at the statement by mitt romney in the 2008 campaign casting doubt on the wisdom of going into pakistan after terrorist targets. so larry, we're going to see this going all the way through election, as well as the economic debate. >> john, i was trying to get this reference. was jimmy carter in favor of killing osama bin laden? i'm trying to clear that up. >> i think the mitt romney was trying to say even a leader regarded as weak as jimmy carter was by the american people by the end of his presidency would have made the hard call on the intelligence that was available to go after osama bin laden. it's an understandable point for mitt romney to make. he's got to try to impeach the president's accomplishment there, because the bottom line is george bush went after osama bin laden, didn't get him. barack obama did. and so mitt romney's got to try to undercut that accomplishment a bit. >> all right. thanks very much, john harwood. appreciate it. what we heard from the president

is really an occupy wall street class warfare speech. joining me now are brad hoodhouse communications director at the democratic national committee. and shawn speiser his counterpart at the republican national committee. i have to tell you, i love you guys. brad, i got to start request you. i often start with you because i see and hear things out there that i need explanations for. >> sure. >> extraterrestrial things. let me get this right. the president is speaking to the building trades council about infrastructure, okay, and all he does is bash rich people, okay. and never once mentions keystone, which is the most shovel-ready infrastructure project possible. how is that possible, never mentioning keystone, brad? >> larry, you are johnny one-note. you and charles speiser are johnny one-note when it comes to keystone. look, the facts are the facts. this wasn't about class warfare. >> exactly. >> this was about priorities. i mean the president, and this

is actually a fact. the president sent a jobs bill to congress. he said let's fund these infrastructure projects that would create hundreds of thousands of jobs, and no one disputes that we have crumbling bridges, crumbling roads we have infrastructure needs. we need high-speed rail. republicans said no. >> after spending $831 billion on stimulus one. $831 billion. that's a lot of money for roads and bridges. >> well, look, first of all -- >> as far as keystone, you want to talk priorities, this is the first time that the republican national committee has said yeah, we agree with the afl-cio building trades. but their number one priority according to their president is keystone equals jobs. in their book, 25,000 jobs. we're with them. >> here is the thing about the republicans message on this. you couldn't find a message with the flashlight and two hands. one day you're saying that the president is in the pocket of big labor.

the next day you're using big labor's words against the president. >> brad, brad, my friend. hang on a second. >> he has no credibility on the issue. >> let me just -- >> no credibility on the issue of jobs. >> let me just get in here one second. brad, wait, wait wait, brad woodhouse, you know, i'm going to direct this at shawn. i'll let shawn answer because brad's got a little more time. the point is, shawn, the most shovel-ready infrastructure position is the keystone pipeline. the building trades council who obama spoke to today, all are in favor of the keystone pipeline project. and literally hundreds of thousands of jobs are at stake. blue collar jobs, construction jobs. shawn, is this going to be continuing as a campaign issue, because there is going to be another vote. i think obama's not going to be able to get around this. i mean i just don't see how he gets around this, shawn. how does he get around this? >> for three years, this administration has given unions everything that they want.

the stimulus bailout for general motors. you name it. >> i'm glad you're -- >> everything that they wanted. the one time that we actually agree with them that keystone equals jobs is the one time he actually caves and sides with the environmentalists. >> brad woodhouse, let me switch gears a little bit. does president obama support occupy wall street, the mayday parades are going to be perform, parades, protests, whatever. is he a supporter of occupy wall street? >> well, look, i think the president has said and we have said many times that the sentiment that you hear from people that have been involved at occupy protest is actually very similar to some of the sentiment you've heard on the tea party side. people want to see institutions working for their benefit. and they often, especially at this republican control of the house don't feel like institutions are working for their benefit. they have anxiety about the economy. but this issue isn't about occupy wall street or class warfare. this issue is about making the investments that would create

jobs. republicans do not want to -- republicans do not want -- republicans do not want to invest. >> shouldn't be blocking those -- >> republicans do not want to invest in infrastructure. >> one at a time. good ahead, sean. >> larry we have passed a stimulus. $831 billion was passed. the president got everything he wants. for two years. >> 2/3 of that was tax cuts, by the way. 2/3 of that was tax cuts. >> brad, chill. let me finish. here is the deal. for two years you guys controlled everything. you had a super majority in the house, a 60-vote majority in the senate. you controlled everything. you got everything you wanted, and now you want to go back and join george bush. you want to blame the weather, everybody but yourselves for two years you did -- >> we did pass and we created -- >> that's insane, sean. we're not losing $750,000 a year. we're not losing 750,000 jobs a month. >> from getting the work. >> you're both missing the point. the republicans just passed a

six-month extension of the highway bill. i think six months is a terrible idea. but the key point in there is -- >> they're sitting on the legislation bill. >> no, no. they got it through the house. you're wrong. it's passing the senate. it's in conference committee right now. come on, let's be honest. it's in conference committee. six months is a lousy idea. but the key to the whole infrastructure debate is keystone. i'm sorry, brad. i do not understand how president obama, he can blame millionaires. he can blame billionaires. he can side with occupy wall street, but he's speaking to the trades union, the construction guys of the afl-cio. he cannot get around keystone, brad. this is one of the worst political mistakes and worst economic mistakes he has made. >> larry, one project is not the infrastructure of the entire country needs. and by the way, if he was -- if the building trades were so upset at the president over keystone, why did they receive him so warmly today? because they know that he is the one to committed to real infrastructure projects all over the country. roads -- >> they got everything they

wanted for the last three years. >> high speed rail, all of which the republicans oppose -- >> he'll probably have more flexibility after this election. >> they'd rather pass more tax cuts for the wealthy. >> sean spicei'll give you the last word. >> i think the unions have gotten three years of everything they wanted. the president probably said give me a pass for three months and i'll give you keystone. >> i should get the last word when i come on this show. >> i gave you the first word. i always gave you the first word. >> i know you do. >> the first and the last. the answer to sean spiceer's question. brad woodhouse, sean spicer. thank you, gentlemen, as always. i'm learning to love those guys. i think they're going to be regulars on our show. up next tonight, why did "the new york times" do a hit piece on apple? the paper says the world's largest company sidesteps billions in taxes, but there is

nothing illegal. how about fix the broken tax system with supply-side corporate tax reform? that's my apple question. and up ahead, too much economic doom and gloom running amok. we found someone who says america's decline is a myth. the u.s. is better, stronger, and faster than anywhere else in the world. and later, sex, lies, and paychecks. team obama tries to perpetuate that old fallacy that women make less money than men. but we've got facts to show you it ain't so. and please don't forget, free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity, not occupy wall street, not 1% versus the 99%. and i'm larry kudlow. we'll be right back. carfirmation. only hertz gives you a carfirmation. hey, this is challenger.

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apple legally sidesteps billions in taxes. that's the front page of the "new york times." and i want to stress one word here, legally. cnbc's bertha coombs joins us now with the how and the why of the apple tech story. >> apple shares, let's start with what they did today. they ended the april below $600, losing 3% for the month, despite posting the blowup first quarter earnings. but while down for the first time in four months, apple

remains the u.s.'s most valuable and profitable company. and part of the reason why may go beyond its popular products. just a few months after "the new york times" and others reported on the tech giant putting it under pressure over working conditions at foxconn facilities that makes many of its products in china. that resulted in apple ultimately hiring an independent labor monitor group. now come questions about the strategies that the tech giant uses to minimize its taxes, perhaps boost its profits. as a result, "the new york times" notes that silicon valley-based apple set up a subsidiary in nevada, a state with no corporate state tax. and the "new york times" in its analysis while apple last year earned over $34 billion, about 40% more than walmart, earning about $24 billion, apple paid about half what walmart paid in taxes globally. making its nominal tax rate

around 9.8% compared to walmart's 24%. now in a statement to the times, apple defends its tax practices, noting that its employees alone have already paid $5 billion in taxes already this year. now it's not unusual that tech companies pay lower taxes than other industries, and they work tech issues to their advantage. while brick and mortar stores like walmart collect sales taxes in states where they operate, amazon is very well-known for convincing state legislators where it's operating, its big systems and big distribution centers not to collect state taxes when they send those things out there in order to make sure that they have jobs there. now for individual investors, tech companies are now poised to be very big players this year when it comes to discussions about dividends according to

s&p's howard silverblatt 2012 is poised to be a record payout. and are the second biggest sector paying out dividends. and larry, you know what that means. most likely now that they know their investors like those dividends, they're likely ton going to be a very loud voice when we see the bush tax cuts expire next year when it comes to the issue of keeping capital gains taxes low. so they're all over taxes. >> right on, right on. do not double and triple tax investment. in the capital, bertha coombs, cnbc. thank you. so for me, the solution to the apple issue is u.s. pro-growth corporate tax reform. no wonder companies want to leave high tax california and go to zero tax nevada, or low tax ireland. it makes total supply-side sense. bold tax reform. let's talk. we have martin sullivan, former treasury department economist. he is the author of the report "how apple sidesteps billions in

taxes." we have fill kerbin. i want to start with you. why is this such a shocking "new york times" revelation that california's 9% tax rate is worse than nevada's zero or that the u.s. at 35% is worse than ireland's 12.5%? what is this? rocket science? of course that's what a smart company would do. >> well, of course. and "the new york times," of course, is shocked and outraged that incentives matter and companies respond to high tax rates by moving economic activity, moving economic capital. it's the rational thing to do. they have fiduciary to their shareholders to conduct business in the most economical way possible. the 9.8% is a phantom. you can't take 2011 cash taxes paid and divide it into 2011 profits because you don't pay your final 2011 tax bill until 2012. they're measuring different periods of time in the newsroom rater and the denominator. apple is a growth company. of course you're going to

understate the tax liability that way. i think it's a deliberate distortion from "the new york times." >> one of the troubles from the story is there is a lot of different tax satisfying figures there is a worldwide, statewide. i can't figure it out. martin sullivan, why is this such a big deal? here is a company. 47,000 jobs, 250,000 support jobs, made a bloody fortune, kajillions of dollars for its shareholders. this isn't just rich people. shareholders in this case means people in pensions, state and local government union workers and unions. so why shouldn't apple act in the best interest of their shareholders? i ask you tax expert, former treasury official martin sullivan. >> larry, the -- let me take exception to your lead. i don't think anybody is bashing apple. apple is a great company, and the high-tech companies of america are the crown jewels of the economy. the problem here -- >> a sob story about a local

community that tear at the heartstrings. it doesn't get more slimy than that. >> well, let me just say that the problem that "the new york times" is pointing out is not something that anal is doing, that they're doing something wrong. it's our tax laws which allow them to take advantage of a loophole that most other companies can't take advantage of. i think we all can agree that we want a tax system that is fair and neutral, and this type of loophole tilts the playing field. >> look, it's not a loophole to try to avoid taxes on foreign-sourced income. the whole rest of the world deliberately excludes foreign-based income from the tax base because that's the correct economic treatment. the problem in the u.s. is we try to tax foreign-based income tax. we'd be better saying giving everyone the benefit apple has instead of only giving to it companies that have the lawyers and the accountants that are clever enough to plan around. >> if i may, the issue is not the foreign source income, it is income that should be properly sourced to the united states that is being shifted offshore.

>> i disagree with that. >> that is being put into the tax equation. >> 61%. >> i want to ask martin something. martin, look. i think the issue here is the great competition, a, between states, tax competition between states. and b, between countries. in other words, the old days trs united states had it all to itself, and state tax rates were pretty high. what you got now, martin, you're a tax expert, a former treasury man. this competition is bringing down tax rates. canada has a 15% federal tax rate and a 10% dominion tax rate, provincial tax rate. how can the united states have a 40% tax rate in this new world order of low corporate tax rates globally? that's really my question. >> larry, i absolutely agree with you. we must lower our corporate tax rate. i think the rate should be 15%. >> well, i love that i love that, by the way. editorially. thank you for that. >> however, to get there, if you look at the romney plan, the

ryan plan, the obama plan, the bowles-simpson plan, all say we need to close loopholes. this loophole that apple is using is the biggest loophole. if we want to start getting our rates down, we have to start broadening the base. we don't want an uneven playing field. >> all right. fair enough. >> what is the loophole? >> let's allow apple to pay the same amount of tax as a midwestern manufacturer or a northeastern service company. that's what we're talking about here. >> they're paying the u.s. tax on all their u.s. sales. >> i'm going to give you 20 seconds. do we need a corporate tax at all in the united states? >> well, i think we could just have flow-through treatment for corporations the same as we have for partnerships. frankly, at the end of the day, only individuals pay tax. corporations collect them, but they pass them on to shareholders, customers, or employees. >> i agree with that, but we have to pay for it. >> marty sullivan, you're a very

sensible guy. we appreciate your input. phil kerpin, you're a sensible guy. and i'm a sensible guy. let's abolish the tax altogether, or at least reform it. a proud milestone for the hard hats and all americans on the new york skyline. this is a great story. later on, the pay gap between men and women. does it really exist? we've got some surprising information for you on that one. i'm kudlow. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] citi turns 200 this year.

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after an epa officials last week, that epa official is falling on his sword. cnbc's bertha coombs is back with us. more on that and all the latest breaking headlines coming into the cnbc newsroom. >> hey, larry. a regional epa official is resigning after his, quote, crucify comments surfaced last week. al almandar sent a letter to lisa jackson stating his regret over using the word, and it wasn't a reflection of how he ran his region. oklahoma senator james inhofe made an issue out of his comment on epa enforcement against oil and gas companies. and one world trade center rising near the site of the twin towers is now the tallest building in new york. topping the empire state building. when the new building tops out in june, it will be the tallest

in the u.s., and the third tallest in the world. and groupon gets a bump after hours from its board shake-up. the board is adding accounting expert daniel henry and deloitte vice-chairman robert bass who will serve on the audit committee. who is out? starbucks ceo howard schultz. and a story that cnbc broke earlier today, delta airlines closes their deal to buy the trainer pennsylvania oil refinery for $180 million. delta received 30 million in state subsidies for that payment. the refinery is expected to provide 80% of delta's jet fuel needs in the u.s., reducing its fuel costs larry. this is a first. it's really quite an interesting move on their part. >> all right. many thanks. cnbc's bertha coombs. later on "kudlow," the paycheck wars. team obama tries to stoke a false war on women, arguing that women make less money than men.

but we've got facts that speak otherwise. and up next, too much economic pessimism. we found somebody who says america's decline is a myth, like steve austin and the $6 million man, the u.s. is better, stronger, and faster than anywhere else in the world. believe it or not, we can rebuild. we have the technology, economic strength versus economic sputter. our experts are going to face off. it's very important to understand

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welcome back to the "kudlow report." i'm larry kudlow. in this half hour, like mark twain, reports of the american economy's death are greatly exaggerated, although it ain't great. also this evening a diplomatic crisis pitting america against china over a dissident reportedly holed up at the american embassy in beijing. one false move by any side wreck relations? and new figures show women are being paid less than men. but it's a gender hours work gap, not a gender pay gap. we're going to try to show you the math. first up, at the white house correspondence dinner, comedian jimmy kimmel took a good jab at the president who won the message on hope and change. take a listen to kimmel. >> mr. president, you remember -- you remember when the country rallied around you

in hopes of a better tomorrow? that was hilarious. [ laughter ] that was your best one yet. >> president obama laughed. but the growing chorus of economic naysayerers is doing anything but laughing. "the new york times" calls it an economic down shift. goldman sachs calls ate jobs down shift. there too much pessimism out there? let's bring dan gross, yahoo fans columnist and author of "better, stronger faster: the myth of the american decline." that is out tuesday, may 8th. he is going to be back to talk about it. he also have jimmy pethokoukis of the american enterprise institute. i actually like what both of you are saying. but jimmy p., you think right now even the stalled speed recovery is down shifting again. that your take? >> it looks like it. what we've seen so far might be unfortunately the best of the year. i mean this looks like maybe a little bit better than last

year. but it looks like what i think. listen, 2% growth, 8% plus unemployment, that's stagnation by american standards. >> and jimmy, does the fact that "the new york times" agree with you trouble you at all in your analysis? >> it does trouble me deeply. i kind of push myself away from the computer. i thought for a while. well, maybe even "the new york times" has gotten it right for once. >> dan gross, your article is also very interesting. you pull, you tug at my heartstrings because you know i'm a quintessential optimist. >> that's why i wrote the book, larry. >> it was great. but what about the stalled speed recovery? in other words, 11 quarters, 2 1/2% growth. it's less than half of the historic averages, way below what we had in the 1980s. why are you so optimistic about the longer-term in view of the problems we're having in the short-run? >> well, look, we are about to approach the third anniversary of this expansion. we live in an age of long business expansions where you have quarters of 3 and 4% growth, and plenty of quarters of 1 1/2 and 2% growth. i think now the consumer is

actually kicking in. if you look at the most recent gdp report, business investment was down. government as a percentage of the economy was detracting, and guess what? residential investment, ie housing is adding. consumer spending is agenda. car production is going to be up massively this year. car sales are up massively this year, gaining strength. >> where are the 3 and 4% quarters then, dan? >> we had some. and we had a 3% -- >> not for a while. >> hold on, jimmy. we had one in the fourth quarter, and we're probably going to have one the first quarter. the first take was 2.2%. but broadly speaking, there has been this tendency the last few years to short america, to short our policymakers, which are probably worth shorting, but to short our private sector, to short our markets and to short our consumer. and when you look at all the charts from the past three years, whether it's our stock market doubling, whether it's corporations' profits going up 50, 60%, whether it's fdi, for directed investment we get the most of it.

we get the highest share of tourism. well get the highest exports in the world. >> i'm not sure the argument is there is something -- you know, the housing, you can still talk about the banks. but for the rest of the private sector, i'm not sure that's the concern. i'm not sure what you're arguing. the concern people have is the impact -- >> we are in a long-term decline that we are never going to regain our peak and we're going to have a japan-style -- >> the impact of government, government on the private sector, whether it's through -- >> no, i don't -- >> whether it's debt crisis, that's the concern going forward. >> if the administration has been engaged in a war on prosperity and corporaprofits, going remarkably wrong. remember march 6th, 1999, the op-ed obama's radicalism is killing the dow. so whatever policy have been put in place -- >> you make some great points. >> the entrepreneurial spirit. >> dan, look there is a natural gas revolution from shale

fracking. >> absolutely. >> that's boosting the manufacturing sector. you also mention the apple and google and facebook revolution. i love that stuff. but at the same time, you got president obama out there today addressing the building trades. he is bash billionaires. he is bashing millionaires. he is bashing business. and i think jimmy's point is correct, dan. no matter how you slice the pie, this has been a slow based job recovery and a slow-based business recovery despite the fact that you correctly note they were swimming in profits. you to ask yourself, dan, why don't they create the kind of jobs, why don't we have higher employment as a share of the workforce like we used to if it is all so good? >> let me just take the other side. people talk about the prospect of a louisiana decade like japan had. we had one. 1999 to 2009, no growth in stock market, no growth in jobs, no growth in income. there has been widespread restructuring. so in the book we talk about we have internal resources, ie natural gas, but also our

ability to restructure, find efficiency, figure out new business models. and looking around the world, the global growth that is making a lot of people feel so badly has not necessarily been a zero sum gain. that's the point. >> what he is not quite grasping is that this private sector, which he is saying some great things about is not impervious to bad policy. richard nixon said it would take a genius to wreck the economy. well, it doesn't really take a genius. it just takes a bunch of bad policies like not getting your debt under control, like leaving tax too high and imposes regulation on regulation on the economy. >> i got to leave there it. [ overlapping dialog ] >> we'll have you both back when the book comes out next week. you're terrific. >> jimmy has to read the book before then. >> we're all going to read the book. send me the book. i want to read the book. dan gross, thank you very much. jimmy pethokoukis, thank you very much. programing note, by the way. speaking over books, tomorrow's show i'm going to be joined by robert shiller. he is going to be here for his

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this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way. devry university, proud to support the education of our u.s. olympic team. all right. we have this breaking news coming into cnbc. the "washington post" now reporting the office of congressional ethics has found no evidence of insider trading violations involving house financial services committee chairman spencer baucus, and will recommend that the case against baucus will closed. baucus was criticized for buying stock options while supervisoring the nation's banking and financial services industries. okay. to other news. the fate of a chinese human rights activist may be the most important human rights crisis china has faced since tiananmen square. it threatens to upset the latest round of dialogue between the u.s. and china, that to occur later this week.

hampton pearson joins us with all that what is going on? what can you report? >> well, how about the global economy, tensions in north korea, iran, syria, and the european debt crisis. all those things were already on the agenda. now the diplomatic fallout caused by the daring escape e i. he fought against force aid borgess and corruption inside china would open the administration up to attacks from both the left and the presumptive republican nominee mitt romney, who released a statement urging u.s. officials to take steps to protect chin and his family. now this afternoon during a joint news conference with yoshihiko noda, president obama sidestepped the question about reports mr. chen is under u.s. protection in china. >> obviously i'm aware of the press reports on the situation in china. but i'm not going to make a statement on the issue.

>> and tonight secretary of state hillary clinton heads for beijing. >> we have a full range of issues that covers all of the political and economic matters that are of concern to our nations and our people. i'm not going to address the specific case at this time. >> and the administration's point man on the ground is assistant secretary for asian affairs, kurt campbell. he is in beijing. act gists claim he is involved in intense negotiations with the chinese to decide where chen should go next. treasury secretary tim geithner will join hillary clinton in leading the latest round of strategic dialogue with china, set to again on thursday. both sides say those talks will go forward. larry? >> all right, thank you very much, hampton pearson. so just what will the overall impact be on u.s.-chinese

relations? let's bring in jordan chang. gordon, this derring do, this is a gigantic embarrassment to china, it is not? >> oh, you're absolutely right, larry. you know, the state department is treating this like a crisis, and it is a choice sis. but it's china's crisis. it's not ours. and there is only a limited amount of things we can do or should do in this case. what you have is chinese leaders fighting with each other. perhaps that is connected with chen's miraculous escape to beijing. >> i'm going to assume, gordon, he is in the embassy. i'm going to ask you. there is no way we would release him back to the chinese, we being the united states, there? >> no, you're right, except if chen himself wants to go. because chen's friends say that he does not want asylum in the united states. he wants protection from chinese authorities for himself and his wife. that would be very difficult for us to give.

and so my guess is that he eventually will come to the united states. if he wants it, he'll get it. >> let me ask you this. maybe there is another scenario. if on his own reconnaissance and request, if chen is released, wouldn't there be like 100,000 people standing outside the u.s. embassy cheering chen? >> well, there could be, unless chinese security forces prohibit that. but i'm guessing the chinese security forces, which are controlled by the politburo want to cause trobl for hu jintao and wen jiabao. i'm getting there will be more near the embassy when chen is released. >> and that might be what chen wants. that might do more to embarrass the politburo. it's still a communist country. >> that's why he doesn't want to leave. he knows if he leaves, he'll be marginalized. if he stays, he could become a

real force to change. >> all right. gordon chang giving us the inside scoop. thank you, great to see you. >> thanks. up next on "kudlow," new census numbers and bureau of labor department statistics. they say women are being paid less than men. but wait a minute, wait a minute. the labor department admits it's a gender hours worth gap, not simply a pay gap. we're going to reveal the truth, right after the break. in here, great food demands a great presentation. so at&t showed corporate caterers how to better collaborate by using a mobile solution, in a whole new way. using real-time photo sharing abilities, they can create and maintain high standards, from kitchen to table. this technology allows us to collaborate with our drivers to make a better experience for our customers. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪

female voters will certainly

play an important role come november. but with the economy still stalled, political rhetoric in the so-called war on women has become heated. take a listen to this exchange on pay equality during nbc's "meet the press" yesterday. >> the romney campaign wants to talk about women in the economy. the women in this country still make 77 cents on the dollar for what men make. >> hold on a s.e.c. >> women don't make less than that? >> actually; if you start looking at the numbers, rachel, there are lots of reasons for that. >> no, do women make less than men for doing the same work? >> no. >> wow, okay! >> men work an average of 44 hours a week. women work 41 hours a week. men go into engineering, science and math that earn more. no, no, no. >> no it isn't. >> all right. here we have cnbc contributor howard dean, former vermont governor and dnc chair, and we welcome back house member kathy mcmorris rodgers. she is a republican from

washington and vice chair of the house republican conference. you know, kathy mcmorris rodgers, there is an hours worked issue here. alex castellanos is right. when you look at the labor department numbers, men work longer because women are rearing children. this is by women's choice. but there really isn't a pay gap. it's an hours worked gap. what is your take on that? >> the 77% number is certainly misleading. it doesn't tell the whole story. and when you compare men and women in the same positions with the same experience, the same education, there is no pay gap. men, on average eight to ten hours more a week than a woman. so you need to look at, yes, what the position is and you need to compare apples to apples, not pick and choose. and once again, it is -- this is an issue, it's an example where the democrats are trying to

distract, divide americans, whether it's men or women. in this case, rich or poor. but they are trying to distract americans from the real issues there is not a war on women. >> howard dean, before you come slashing back, let me get just one additional number out, and then you can do whatever you're going to do. again, from the labor department, college educated men and women who have never married. so they have no kids, between the ages of 40 and 64, okay. men $40,000 a year. women, $47,000 a year. okay. so actually, the women do better. >> well, the women as a whole don't do better. i find it somewhat ludicrous that we have republicans talking about equal pay for women when they hated the lilly ledbetter act, which is the first order of business for us and then there really would be equal pay for women. here is the fax. by your own math, larry, this is nonsense. let's suppose for a moment that the labor department did say 41 hours is worked by women and 44 by men. that doesn't account for a 23%

wage difference. the fact is women are on the short end of the stick economically, and we would like to fix that. and the republicans would simply like to give all the money back to the big corporations. we're not going to do that. >> go ahead. >> the republicans support equal pay for equal work. that has never been in dispute. lilly ledbetter was a bad bill. all it did is open the treasure chest for the trial lawyers. and you know who wins when the trial lawyers gets into this. it wouldn't have helped women actually get jobs or employers hire anyone or put americans back to work. and again, i would say the real issues, the real issues come back to the economy, come back to job creation, the debt. these are all distractions from the real issues. >> this is total nonsense. you guys are making this stuff up. the fact of the matter is that lilly ledbetter wasn't paid equally, and the republicans voted to keep paying her not equally. this is a nonsense argument coming from a republican. the facts you state ready simply not so. the republicans voted against equal pay for women that is a fact. >> the bill didn't equal pay

for -- >> nonsense. we had enough washington talk for this. we want equal pay for women. we want women to be treated decently. >> well, absolutely. i would say that republicans support equal pay for equal work. >> they voted against lilly ledbetter. how can you say that? it's absolute nonsense. >> it was on the books before the lilly ledbetter bill was put before congress. >> this is a nonsensical argument. >> lilly ledbetter, all it did was open up the treasure chest for trial lawyers. >> total hogwash. it's always the trial lawyers. it's never the republicans' fault that women don't get an equal pay. >> look at the fax. >> i'm not letting you get away with it. even on larry kudlow, propaganda doesn't fly. >> the democrats are panicked. >> not going to happen. >> howard is accusing me of being a propagandist. >> i say even on larry kudlow -- well, that's true. you are a propagandist on this issue. >> i'm just using a fact. here is another fact.

again, women have 58%. this is amazing. in 2012, women are now earning 58% of all college degrees, whether it's a two-year school, a four-year school, or graduate school. women are earning 58% of all college degrees. men, 42%. so ms. rodgers. >> yes? >> the thought occurs to me, simple mind as i am, women are gaining the upper hand in this long-term battle because college-educated women are going to outstrip everybody. and eventually, they're going to be in all the high pay professions. so why is there such a hullabaloo? the college education, women almost 60% now, for heaven's sake. they're going to twin whole race. >> look at the law schools. look at medical schools. it's really exciting to see women in all of these positions, including congress. and you know what? there were a record number of women, republican women elected to congress in 2010. the republicans won the women's vote. they actually -- women actually

fired the first woman speak over the house because they didn't like the policies that were being promoted by the first woman speak over the house. it's really exciting to see. >> law school and medical school, women graduates of medical school get paid less than men graduates. that's the same true at law school. >> but is that because they work fewer hours and more part-time? >> larry, you better be careful. there was a big flap last week about whether work inside the house was work or not. i don't think it is and i don't think they get paid less because they happen to have children. >> if you work part-time, if you work by choice, i'm saying by choice during certain earnings, don't you have to take that into account? by their own choice. >> i don't think that's true. >> what is exciting today is that women can have those choices, can have the flexibility that is available to them. and i think we need more flexibility in the workplace so that women can have -- i've introduced the flexibility in the workplace act, which would give women more options that are those hourly employees. >> we believe the federal

government should stop telling women to do in their private lives, their person lives and stand up for women's real issues and pay them what you pay men. >> we didn't get agreement. i thought we would, but we didn't. howard dean, thank you, sir, as always. kat my mcmorris rodgers, we appreciate it. don't forget tomorrow i'm going to be joined by robert shiller and senator tom coburn. that's it for this evening's show. i'm larry kudlow. thanks for watching. (female announcer) most life insurance companies look at you and just see a policy. at aviva, we do things differently. we're bringing humanity back to life insurance. that's why only aviva rewards you with savings for getting a check-up.

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