iphone tomorrow. i like to always say there is a bull market somewhere. >> chicago school teachers are still ripping off the kids and the taxpayers. it is a traffic veststy. good evening, everyone. i'm larry kudlow. thousands of teachers clog the streets of chicago as day two of the teachers' distortion plan -- oops, strike - strike -- continues and thousands of dollars are made to keep the schools open as they selfishly attempt to rip off the same kids, parents and taxpayers. this is wisconsin coming to chicago. that may wind up being a good thing. the question is will obama accolate, rahm emanuel fold like a cheap suit or will he hang tough and give some public order and decent education at a decent

cost to the city of chicago and its families. this evening, the president's leadership is being questioned over the fiscal cliff. listen tohouse speaker boehner over whether they can reach a deal with president obama. >> i'm not confident at all. the house has done its job on the sequester and looming tax hikes that will cost our economy some 700,000 jobs. the senate at some point has to act. on both of these, where's the president? where's this leadership? absent without leave. >> moody's today warned the fiscal cliff could cause another credit down grade. investors shrugged it off. the dow closed up 69 points, a 4 1/2 year high. with us to talk about the credit down grade and failed obama leadership we welcome back tom

coburn and mr. rice and famed investor jim rogers sorts out the market for us. as america honors 9/11, armed lo hooligan hooligans tear down the american flag as president obama is accused of snub ibing netanyahu from israel as the crisis deepens. we welcome former white house chief of staff, andy card. we begin tonight with the biggest ripoff perpetrated on the american people. the chicago teacher's union strike over outrageous demands by the union. today, they and their leftist students pickketed. thousands of students left on the streets and parents leaving work to care for them. will democratic may wror rahm emanuel, rambo he's sometimes called, is he going to fold,

give teachers their election year rewards or what? we'll talk to dan prop on the dan prop show, wls in washington and steve, senior follow at the manhattan institute, author of "shakedown." and parent advocate and executive director of class size matters. dana, i want to go to you. i don't think we've ever met before. i want to get your take. i'm not objective at all. i think it's a complete ripoff and the numbers go to teachers, pensions, health care, don't go to the students, not helping the city, this is a disaster. >> larry, you're right generally speaking. the question is will rahm emanuel cave? he's already caved. he tried to give away the store. the chicago teachers' union wants the entire business district. this is a school system property taxes have been raised $200

million over the last two years, expended their cash reserve, a credit down grade and management side proposed 16% increase with benefits remaining the same. that has the more reasonable side that shows you the virulent stockholm syndrome that afflicts the city of chicago. >> $76,000, pre-benefits. the average chicago family makes $47,000. 16% increase over four years, as dan said. that's more than twice the inflation rate. a co-pay of 3% on health care, 70% of the chicago education money goes to pensions and people. 15%, 15% of fourth graders know how to read and 50% don't even graduate from high school. and the teachers don't want to submit to performance tests. i'm sorry. with all due respect, that is an outrage. >> can i say something. first of all, any who knows

what's going on in chicago know this fight is not about pay and benefits, about working conditions, class size, teacher evaluation. right now, there are kindergarten kids sitting in classes of 43 in chicago, meanwhile, rahm emanuel sends his own children to a private school where no classes are larger than 18. in terms of teacher evaluation, all the teachers want in chicago and elsewhere in the country is a fair and reliable evaluation system. meanwhile -- >> i think they don't want anything, these numbers are so bad -- look -- >> no. >> we had the same battle in new york city until bloomberg and joe klein finally got through. for you to say you want better classrooms, the money doesn't go to the classrooms. >> exactly. it doesn't go to the classroom. >> it goes to the teachers' union who protect the teachers themselves. that's the traffic veststy. >> do you want to give me a chance to speak? >> i'm sorry, you're saying a

lot of things i disagree with. you're not being accurate. >> i'm being 100% accurate. there are $250 million rahm emanuel has in tax increment financing supposed to go to the schools but instead going to his business cronies like the hyatt hotel chain. >> i don't know what that has to do -- >> the academy of science, which is our most elite and respected bunch of researchers in the country have not come out not once but twice against the teacher evaluation system they're trying to impose in chicago. >> we're not here to talk about the pritzer family, we're here to talk about the chicago union disaster. >> exactly. >> i want to go to my friend. what's your take on this? >> the school system is 20ing $12,750 a student. above the national average, divide the number of teachers to students, one teacher for 18 students. if they have classrooms with 43

kids in them, where are all these teachers? what are they doing? >> that shows you the bad management of rahm emanuel. >> that's rahm emanuel's fault? >> let me go through, the cash and pension and health care benefits look very large to me. the salaries are twice the median income in chicago, there's almost no co-pay on medicare and health benefits and so much from chicago city council goes to pensions or individuals, not to the classrooms, not to the kids. >> that's not what this strike is about. >> part of my take is by one standard the teachers have the best pension system in the country. here's the thing. the city captain even afford to fund the pension system. one of the problems this city faces even before they give anything to the teachers, they have hundreds of millions of dollars of pension payments upcoming. >> and property taxes go up, let me guess, just like wisconsin.

and eventually bankrupt the whole city. >> last year, chicago residents got hit with the illinois 66% income tax increase. they are under siege. i would not buy into chicago. >> dan, i want to go back to the political question about "rambo" emanuel. he obviously is pro union, his boss, they will win illinois by 20 or 30 points but they pledge to help every union around the country. how will this work out? is rambo going to fold like a cheap suit or what? >> i'm not sure obama will win this state by that margin, i think it will be closer than people think. in terms of mayor emanuel, the teacher's union has already won but the question is margin of victory. steve mentioned $12,000 per pupil. it's actually $24,000 per high school graduate, which,

remember, is the point of sending kids through this system. in 1993, former reagan education secretary, bill bennett said the ku klux klan could not design a system more harmful to children. wait a second. fast forward 20 years and the only difference is we're paying more and those kids that were in the schools in '93, are parents of kids in the school today. >> go ahead, lanny. >> we had mayoral control in chicago for 17 years. before this, we had arnie duncan and paul ball last running the schools. dai daley was in charge. if there hasn't been good progress, it's because we're doing the wrong things. >> that's not true. >> right now -- can i say something? if you look at the polling in chicago, the vast majority of voters and parents are on the side of the teachers, not the mayor. >> that goes to the stockholm syndrome that afflicts the city which is why it should be

quarantined. >> you're talking politics. i can tell you rahm emanuel has very little sympathy among the parents in chicago who see that the teachers have the best interests of their kids at heart, not the mayor. >> what i do not understand, i'll be very sincere. i don't live in chicago but i've done some homework on this. 15% of fourth graders -- 15% of fourth graders are proficient in reading and roughly half graduate from high school. those are what i call real bad numbers. >> absolutely. >> for the teachers' union to object to any decent performance standards is off the charts. >> it's not a decent performance standards. >> is off the charts wrong. >> it's not a decent performance standard. >> rambo wants performance standards and your teachers' union won't give it to them. >> first not my teachers' union. i'm a parent, not a teacher. if you ask any an expert in this

area including the national academy of sciences whom i hope you trust, larry, they say this evaluation system is not ready for primetime and will lead to very good teachers being fired. that's the last thing kids of chicago need at this point. >> we will leave it there. you can catch me on wls radio thursday mornings with don and roma, and on the weekends for my syndicated show. next up on kudlow, as america honor honors 9/11, armed hooligans storm egypt and desecrating and tearing down the american flag. tonight, we will respect the flag and honor it with our very special guest, the man who informed president bush of the attacks on that fateful day, former chief of staff, andy card. we never forget 9/11. you should always remember, america is about freedom and

free market capitalism is america's best path to prosperity. never forget 9/11. i'm larry kudlow. we'll be right back. i don't spend money on gasoline. i don't have to use gas. i am probably going to the gas station about once a month. drive around town all the time doing errands and never ever have to fill up gas in the city. i very rarely put gas in my chevy volt. last time i was at a gas station was about...i would say... two months ago. the last time i went to the gas station must have been about three months ago. i go to the gas station such a small amount that i forget how to put gas in my car. ♪

welcome back to t"the kudlo report" as we honor 9/11. an inauspicious day. you're looking at pictures of the freedom tow whether we lost thousands of our blessed souls, patriots that lost their lives to defend our country against the evils of terror. in just a moment, you will hear from the man who informed president bush about those attacks on that day. i will ask him this question, where do we stand on the terror war in 2012? the same question i ask jonathan dietz, where do we stand now when it comes to security. how does it look to you? >> it looks a lot better than 9/11. security is improved. core al qaeda is weakened but the threat remains a constant ongoing one. bin laden is dead, countless other terrorists have been

killed and captured during the bush years and obama years and the military and cia efforts continue. phish has doubled the number of agents dealing with counter-terrorism. nypd has 1,000 cops in new york city alone dedicated to fighting terrorism but we see the plots continuing. we have seen the underwear bomb plots on planes and zazi try to attack our subways, more than a dozen attacks since 9/11 alone. ray kelly has talked to you about this. more than a dozen plots targeting the city and good policing and intelligence targeted many of them and sometimes good luck. we're safer but not yet safe. >> you have -- ray kelly, in my opinion, is the greatest police commissioner this city has ever had and put together a phenomenal operation to make us safe. are the security law enforcement breaks working together satisfactorily? >> there's always that

competition, especially here in new york between agencies. you have joint terrorism forces not only in new york but they've grown, agencies working together, sharing intelligence and cooperating, doing great work behind the scenes. a lot of cases we don't hear about in terms of the type of disruption going on. things have improved and glitches and problems between competing agencies but overall, the cooperation continues to try to stop these plots and attacks. that's clearly the priority and what the public expects. >> many thanks. we appreciate it. joining us now former white house chief of staff, andy card. he first notified president bush of the 9/11 terrorist attacks 11 years ago, at a school in sarasota, florida and now serves as acting dean of the bush school of government and public service at texas a&m. welcome back to the program.

it happened again this morning. every time i see the pictures here in new york of the world trade towers getting slammed, i basically think two things. number one, we must never forget and number two, we must also never forget there is a terror war that still goes on. i want to get your take on that and do you think the bulk of american people would agree with me? >> i think they should agree with you. they should never forget what happened on 9/11 and the fact bad people did terrible things to the united states and they were organized. it takes an awful lot to make sure that doesn't happen again. that's why the shield of america is important. intelligence services and people who understand what's happening around the world to help protect us so we don't have an attack. and then we have the sword, the military, men and women in uniforms, the ones that go out and fight to make sure we can be safe. we have to remember both. we do have an ongoing war on

terror, maybe people don't want to call it that. that's what it is. today is a day of remembrance. we promised we wouldn't forget the victims, the hero, many became victims themselves, let's not forget the outstanding work of our intelligence community, men and women in uniforms and the diplomatic corps focusing on it as well. i also recognize the need for leadership. america must lead. no other country will do it. people don't have to love us around the world. they should respect us or fear us. >> i want to ask you, andy, you're the chief of staff, an old friend, you had a very senior position. mr. bush, president george w. bush laid down what i call bush doctrine rules. you're either with us or against us. any country that harbors terrorists is against us, that the united states can make preemptive strikes against these enemy countries.

i thought those were extremely important doctrines that president bush laid down. is it your opinion, your view that those doctrines are still being honored today in our national security policy, especially toward terrorists? >> they're in place. president obama has not changed the foreign policy that president bush did change and put in place, which means we're going to be preempted. we want to prevent the next attack. i don't think there's as much resolve, quite frankly, with president obama and i don't think he's provided the leadership and i don't think he's introduced the fear to those people who want to do bad things to us. i think they feel a little bit empowered. thankfully our intelligence k e committee is on its toes and will do everything they can to help. i think we're very lucky. i wish president obama was a stronger leader around the world and wasn't as passive and steps back. it can only come from the

president of the united states. the leadership comes from the president. >> everybody favors the assassination of osama bin laden. everybody favors that. that was put into place, most of that was put into place during the george w. bush regime. i'm sorry mr. obama seldom gives your president any credit for that. it troubles me for at least a couple years, the obama administration refused to use the term "war on terror" or "terror war." now, i suppose they do because of the osama assassination. they never used that word. that goes back to my initial point, we must never forget. >> you're exactly right. we are in a war against the terrorists. they do not represent the nation state. there is nobody to negotiate with, no one to say, sign this document and turn over your sword or we'll meet you in a tent or debate about the shape of a table. they are not interested in

having peace. they still want to attack the united states. that's why we have to be ever vigilent and need the resources for our intelligence community and keep our military strong so the world recognizes we will not allow for this country to be attacked. quite frankly, you are either with us or against us, an ally on the war on terror or not. you better be an ally. >> those are president bush's, i hope, universal and ageless doctrines. andy carr,d, a bunch of hooliga tor down the american flag on the embassy and bnetanyahu woul like stronger support against iran. do you have any thoughts about that, hooligans taking down our flag and the state department saying, maybe they were right.

that doesn't stait well with me >> it doesn't sit well with me. >> the arab spring, will produce weeds, not flowers. america's leadership is needed and people should know where we stand and make sure america is always going to be safe and our national security policy is very very important. i hope that will happen. i'm disappointed if the state department said what you might have said. >> they said some movie was shown, maybe it was wrong to show the movie and maybe we shouldn't have shown it, instead of saying, how dare you rip down our flag? how dare you rip down our flag? that's what they should have said. i don't know why they don't say it. >> america is still the country that has given the world the example of how people should be treated and what real respect in leadership means. it's very important america stand up for america. i hope our government stands up for us. >> andy card, thank you, sir,

god bless you for your service. appreciate you coming on in a difficult day. coming up, the dow jones closed up to a five year high on anticipation of germany's bailout ruling and thursday's fed ruling. only a short term rebound or -- my friend joins me live on set, as he always has through the years, he will straighten me out. are we there yet?

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let's talk some stocks. the dow logged its best in nearly a year. cheap and interesting opportunity as the next big investment, let's find out more. before we get to your new and big opportunity, i want to ask you, the u.s. markets since early october is up 30% on the s&p. that's pretty darned good. what's that telling us? a lot of people didn't expect that to happen? does it mean our economy at some point will get better, how do you read that? >> it means the federal reserve is pumping huge amounts of money into the market. not good for you and me but those people up 30% since october. this will end in a terrible mistake. >> terrible mistake. i don't want to talk a lot of politics but i do want to ask you, some people are calling it

an obama rally, and some calling it a romney rally. is politics part of this? >> nothing to do. a federal reserve rally. they're printing money. it has to go somewhere and going into the stock market and commodity market. >> quite possibly thursday we will get an announcement from bernanke that there's more federal reserve money that will be pumped in. should people go into that long, commodities, grain, silver. >> the market is already up 30%. i wouldn't jump on what mr. bernanke says thursday whatever he says. they've been printing money all year. it's not as though this is something new. assets are up, money supply is up. he's out there, in the market. i don't think they will announce it because they look like fools. qe-1 didn't work and qe-2 didn't work, you think they will announce it and say we failed so try qe-3.

>> maybe qe-1 was necessary, maybe. qe-2 did nothing. if this was so good and it was going to work, how come it hasn't worked? economy is slowing down, unemployment high, all this money they're putting on, it hasn't worked. >> you're finally catching on, these guys don't have a clue. >> you're exactly right. let me turn back to the other side of the world. if china is getting worse, not better, some people think their numbers are phony and only growing at 3% instead of 7 or 8, what's that do to your commodity universe? >> i don't trust any government numbers, u.s., chinese, german, anybody, they make them up. india, good gosh, they make these numbers up. china is slowing down, trying to slow down for three years, being successful. some real estate speculators will go bankrupt in china. this is all planned. fortunately so far, looks like a good plan. whenever you reduce demand for

anything, demand is reduce, at the same time we have supply problems. >> would you buy china? >> i'm not buying china. i only buy china when it collapses, every time it collapses, i buy. >> the surprise to me reading your notes was your newfound love and affected for russia. love and affection for russia. vladimir putin, if you get too close, they might throw you in jail like they did the oil and gas guy, kotter kospy. >> don't worry. you described my newfound enthusiasm. you never get it right. i am for the first time in my decades, getting it right, thinking about buying russia. i have never. the only time i ever invested in russia is on the short side. >> why quickly? >> why? because putin seems to have caught on. he said the right things all his life and never done the right things. now, they're starting to do the right things, to my

astonishment. i'm surprised. >> oil and gas, a go energy play. >> i want to play the other things. i don't know what yet but there has to be other parts of the russian economy attractive. it's very cheap. >> on the way out, are you still as optimistic about world commodities and the need to be long commodities? >> i have not sold any commodities. if the world economy gets better they will go up because of shortages. if it doesn't get better, they will print money, the wrong thing to do but that's all they know to do. >> jim rogers of rogers holding seting me straight as he has all these years. moody's turning up the heat, issuing a warning for washington, if you repeat last year's debt ceiling fiasco, it will likely cut the credit rating. former secretary robert reich squaring off with senator tom coburn.

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welcome back. a warning for washington from

moody's, if they fail to accomplish the debt ceiling, the country's credit could be downgraded again. >> good morning from capitol hill. this threat today, that's really what it is, from moody's kind of puts more heat under the butt of lawmakers on capitol hill. many of them, in both political parties for years now have said, without acting on what they've said, that there needs to be a deal on spending and taxes that substantially reduces our debt and deficit. with the clock ticking, there's no agreement in sight. democratic and republican lawmakers stood together to remember 9/11. but they're so far apart today on the budget deal they need to make the top republican said they might fail. >> i'm not confident at all. >> reporter: if the fight over taxing the rich and spending isn't settled by january, everyone's taxes rise.

deep cuts get triggered in defense and social services. the economy takes such a big hit, it's called the fiscal cliff. moody's investor services warn today if the current budget negotiations fail moody's would expect to lower the rating of u.s. t bills like rival standard & poor's did last year when congress gridlocked. led by mitt romney, the republicans are focused on the defense cut, charging president obama is to blame even though republicans agreed to make them automatic if there's no budget deal. >> the president should be called upon, asked what is his plan? how is he going to lead to make sure that our military is not hollowed out. >> democrats have a plan. agree to tax the rich more, avo avoiding pentagon cuts, the moody's down grade and the fiscal cliff. they say it's republicans giving up and adjourning next week. >> like you're facing a catastrophe and saying, we just

don't have time to address that. we have to go home and campaign. >> reporter: democrats will, too. job one is getting re-elected. >> it looks like facing the fiscal cliff will have to wait again. larry, this time until november. back to you. >> many thanks, nbc steve handelsman. my message for washington tonight, why can't you all extend this congressional session in order to do the people's fiscal business and stop playing recessionary politics. it will save the country, it's time to make a deal, to avoid a ngs and stop the looming tax and fiscal cliff. think about this. here is a calendar. the moment the continuing resolution is passed, probably thursday or friday, congress will leave town for the election. nothing more will get done. then, after the election, of course, they're all ready.

it all ends up to 12 days on the schedule after the election. therefore, the economy is destined to go over the fiscal cliff and into recession and congress is driving that bus. the longer they wait, it won't be a 2% recession, it will be a 4% recession, it could be 5 or 6%. that is how irresponsible this story is. let's get right to our special guests, former labor secretary robert reich, author of the book "beyond outrage" and welcome tourist some coburn. senator coburn, tell me where i'm wrong. there's only a couple working days that will happen between now and the end of the year and the recession goes into place, tax hikes go into place and the recession goes into place. >> i don't agree, larry. there's probably about 20 days of work that we will address those issues.

especially the morning of december. the reason nothing's happening now is there's no leadership for anything to happen. one. the career politicians in washington don't want anything to happen until they see the outcome of the election because it will either enhance their positions or weaken their positions, so they don't want to make commitments now. >> i want to ask you, senator coburn. you say there will be 20 days in december, i say maybe there will be 20 days in december. i will concede your point. here's what i don't get. why not do some more work right now. why not do the people's fiscal business right now? take another week or two off. the country is burning up at the failure to get this done. it's stopping business and investors. this is the part a lot of people do not understand. why do you have to go home right now? >> i don't disagree with you. why were we off in august in a work period when actually what it was, was a cam papaign perio?

the problem is it's the same old problem. career politicians won't make the decision to fix our country until the pain of making those decisions is less than the pain of not making those decisions. you haven't gotten to that point yet. you won't see it from the career politicians until after the election. >> robert reich, the definite, 5 trilli trillion dollars, up over a trillion a year, now up to 16 trillion. there is no growth plan because these tax hikes are hanging over the economy, for individuals, businesses, smaller business, stopping hiring. you can see the slope in the economy is going south not north, that's my point. the longer we wait the closer we get to recession. >> i agree with you on this. i think i agree with you for a slightly different reason than you are putting forth. i agree the fiscal cliff is very dangerous and most economists looking at that fiscal cliff

saying we cannot have those huge tax increases saying it will bring on a recession. the irony here is moody's potential downed grade and threatened down grade has to do with moving too quickly to reduce the deficit through that fiscal cliff. that's what they're worried about. this is very different from moody's last year and certainly different from standard & poor's where they were worried about the failure to reach a deal for the budget deficit. we have a deal. that's what congress did. there was a budget control act and we have this fiscal cliff as a result. >> would you sponsor -- would you argue, robert reich, that we should raise taxes, not only the tax rates that will go up across the board but raise taxes, take about $440 billion out of the econo economy? as a good keynesian, how can you possibly support that? >> as a good keynesian or good citizen concerned about the

economy, i would say the best thing to do is not have any budget cuts at all until we reach some sort of consensus about a trigger mechanism. maybe 6% unemployment and 3% economic growth and i might go along with postponing tax increases until we reach that trigger mechanism as well. certainly no tax increases on the middle class. we can debate whether there ought to be tax increases on people who cannot only afford the tax increases but whose spending is not affected by a tax increase. nevertheless, let's at least agree this has to be done in phases. first, don't do anything until you have growth back. >> this is my quarrell. i think this process should go on for several more weeks. the election is not for several more months. two months away. i don't know why the house members and the senate members, mr. coburn, can't carve out several more weeks to do the

people's fiscal business and to do the economy a favor. you know squlrve, sir, this eco sloping down to 1.7%. it probably isn't going to be any better in the third quarter and i don't think anybody wins, obama doesn't win, romney doesn't win because the america people lose. >> first of all, let me put forward to you, larry, there's not going to be a fiscal cliff we're going to go over. you're discounting the political nature this place has always had before an election. they're always going to go home, they're always going to protect their seat. they're going to spend the time. the question needs to be is where has been the long term thinking to solve the big problems for our country, we're in a fiscal cliff quote-unquote i don't even like the word because we couldn't come together because there was no presidential leadership, there was no leadership in the senate, there was little leadership in the house to say we have a major

problem in front of us. what was our default position? the default position was a control act i voted against and many of us conservative because it's the wrong way to do it. we are not going to have a fiscal cliff, it's not going to happen. we are going to solve it before the end of the year. i just got out of a meeting with democrats this afternoon. we're not going to allow that to happen. >> i sincerely hope you're right, senator coburn. i'd be happy to prove you wrong. >> i hope senator coburn is right, too, and i don't have any evidence he is right. >> thank you very much. up next on kudlow, facebook ceo mark zuckerberg opens up for the first time about the disastrous ipo and the stock soars almost 5%. hear what he had to say when we check on the news headlines coming into the cnbc newsroom. that's next up. please stay with us.

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all mark zuckerberg had to do was talk to the media about the disastrous ipo. more on that one and all the latest breaking headlines coming

into the cnbc newsroom. good evening, jackie. >> good evening to you, larry. for the first time since the disastrous ipo, mark zuckerberg took questions and popped the stocks. he says he's optimistic about mobile. and ceo benmoshe said they may be in a position to give a dividend by 2013. the government is now down to a 15.9% stake. in prison, whistle-blower, bradley berken feld will be a rich ex-con soon. he was awarded $104 million by the irs for providing insider information of ubs's insider promotion for u.s. taxpayers, the largest irs award ever but he will have to pay taxes on it. >> i hope they're lower tax rates at some point. thank you. cnbc's jackie deangelis.

coming up, bob woodward's new blockbuster bombshell, president obama is to blame for last summer's failed debt deal. how and why? all coming up next.

welcome back to "the kudlow report." the explosive book hitting bookshelves today, bob woodward's "the price of politics" all suggests president obama is to blame for last

year's failed debt negotiations. with the deal in hand, he relentlessly pushed for more tax increases. and listen to what he toin the interview with bob woodward. >> his best, $400 billion, he knew he wasn't to get a damn dime more out of him. >> woodward's book calls into question the president's leadership or lack thereof. let's talk. we have the filmmaker behind 2016, "obama's america" and author of the book, "obama's america," currently a number one "new york times" best-seller. in honor of your number oneness, i never thought of bob woodward as partisan anything, certainly

partisan conservative but he gives a damning indictment of mr. obama's mishandling of the debt deal last year. what's your take on this? >> there are two ways to read obama's behavior, neither one is flattering to obama. obama is a bunkler, habitually pushes for tax increases, doesn't know how to close a deal. that's an obvious interpretation. does obama-care that much if he got a deal? does debt help him in some way because obama has been so promiscuous and reckless about spending, running up the debt, 5 trillion in the first term, if he ran another 5 trillion in the second term, the national debt would be 20 trillion dollars and he would be responsible for half of that. i almost wonder if debt serves a purpose for obama. >> let me come back to that. woodward says at one point there is no adult supervision in the

white house. very interesting. do you agree with denesh at the end of the day, president obama doesn't really care, run up the debt and spend more. is that his strategy, deliberate ly sabotage the debt deal last year? >> let's look at the evidence. the question who cared about closing the deal. according to woodward's reporting, the president put out a counselor offer, called it to john boehner, didn't get a call back, called again and didn't get a call back. in an unusual development in president negotiating, president obama placed a third phone call after two unanswered calls back to boehner. that is fact. that is in the book. that is something the parties agree on. denesh asks whether he cares. i think the evidence is right there. i'm not going as far to say why john boehner didn't call him back, you have to read into his heart and mind. it's very clear from the actions the president took he was continuing to pursue a deal. as for the debt, i want to answer the second part which is as for the debt.

>> he blew the deal. >> we can't all talk at once. i didn't interrupt you. we can't all talk at once. if you keep talking, this happens and it's not fun for any. >> i just want to read a quote -- >> can i finish my answer. >> hang on. >> i want to finish the debt part. >> i understand. you can't go any further on debt. i want to ask you, if you believe president obama had another deal, okay, he sees he blew it with boehner on the extra $400 billion on tax, how do you reconcile this? david crohn, harry reid's chief of staff, in the oval office with obama says, "to the president, it's really dishearteninat this white house, did not have a plan b. that's all i'm trying to say, they didn't have a plan b. to give them credit for plan b knocks out this david crohn quote. he just said that to the president. >> he may have said it to the president, one person's opinion, not unlike john boehner's

opinion, there are other opinions here. the president in his actions has reached out and willing to go a lot farther than most democrats wanted to go and took heat for it even when it was just a rumor. that doesn't mean these problems are solved. i don't see the counter offer from the republicans at this point. >> denesh, the other part i find very interesting, i have not read the book, read the news accounts of the book, not combed the book they'oroughly. at the end of the day grownups had to take over. biden and mitch mcconnell. what does that tell you. >> it tells me obama may see debt as a way of settling america's colonial debt. in other words, this debt has to be paid off by our children and grandchildren and a lot of that money is owed to people in foreign countries. debt is a way of transferring wealth away from america to the rest of the world. >> i have to leave it there. sorry we're truncated.

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