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sfls welcome to "street signs." and yeah, it may be cold outside but it is hot in here. i'm going to look at the right camera. because we've got the latest on the billionaire battle royale, two hedge funders have it out live on cnbc. we go back to the ring for the recap of what has everybody talking. markets are burning it up to, wow, what a day. >> it is wow, what a day. let's bring in scott wapner, who got kate kelly weighing in as. cramer, what do you think, did they do a disservice to themselves by coming on today? >> i don't ever want to say that because scott wapner had some of the best tv we have ever seen. how much was involved in herbalife, which i know scott kept trying to get back to, which icahn seemed to think he

was bullilyiying him when he tr to get back to the matter at hand. it is risky for someone because of the mechanics of short squeezes and investors that can pull their money out and possibility of both loeb, daniel loeb and icahn teaming up -- >> i tell you, scott. but i tell you, scott. what i found the most fascinate, new name here is mills lane. scott mills lane wapener. unbelievable tv. congratulations on the interviews. >> thanks. >> was the insight into each man, right, ackman was reserved, highly technical, wanted to go into -- you were trying to drag him out of the legal argument. icahn was don't bleeping tell me what the bleep to do. right? what did you take away from each man's disposition? >> just how much animosity still exists, brian, over a decade, when this all really started.

when ackman was running his prior firm, gotham. it went through court a number of times and the court decided with bill ackman and that animosity has clearly festered and now it is pouring out into the public. maybe because of this public position that ackman was taken and addressiveness which he has done it with, that icahn has taken issue with. it is the way these two guys roll, you know, if you will. icahn is -- i mean, ackman is methodical, right? it is the way he gives the speeches on conference. any of these events, salt in las vegas, or wherever they show up, it is the way these guys work. icahn is a little blustery. he has been in a lot of prize fights, if you will, and this is

what happens. >> ackman doesn't suffer from a small ego, you guys and he is not afraid to use the public forum in order to talk about investment ideas that he feels passionate about. we saw examples of that today, clearly. but i will say, earth others made this point, he did a lot of diligence on this stock. whether he is right, i don't know. i have the same amount of diligence. but i think the numbers of herbalife have gone unanswered by the company and by the per per poer export longs. though we think it may, ackman. so what we will see if these guys have more to say in terms of articulating why it is a great investment but i will g e ackman credit for doing so much credit. >> i will give ackman credit for not going through the phone and lot tooling icahn. if they were physically together and that was me, you would have

to physically restrain me. ackman did a great job. kate, kate, ackman was personally attacked. >> no, no, i hear you. >> icahn was -- >> saying he was a liar and -- >> the first stone was thrown by ackman, not icahn. >> how so? >> he said horrible things about him right in the beginning of the interview. >> ackman came back swinging with his statement. >> back and forth. >> he sounded nervous and angry. but he was fact-based. he had the facts on when icahn did a similar thing to make a sort presentation. he had this whole eliot spitzer thing. looking into the merits of the situation. can you bring him on your show. he add point by point rebuttal. and you're right, it was emotional. >> who do you think he had boater case today? >> obviously having done research, i believe ackman's research was very deep. that is what is required when it

comes down to this entire story. herbalife. you can't just -- as jim would say, do it because the -- [ inaudible ] >> herb, we got a bad connection there. you got 20 put the tin can and string down. we will get you back when you have a real connection. scott, let's get back to you. were you surprise bid -- i i'm sorry i keep coming back to this. but it was like, a cage match with two different styles. mma where you have one guy who is sort after street baller, right. then the other guy trained in brazilian jiu-jitsu with a more delicate touch. >> no, i'm not surprised. these guys don't like each other. they made it clear. >> but they used to do business together. they had dinner together. somebody wanted to be someone's friend. >> yeah, carl icahn came out on the short end of the stick. the court said so. he is not happy about that and

he is not happy about the waybill ackman is in the public and short sale position. i'm surprised it happened one li publicly the way it did, but i'm not surprised their dispositions were the way they were. they don't like each other. >> ackman's fairly careful statements -- remember on the day, responding to the ackman short and he could hardly keep his composure, he was so upset. then he made something about his 90% of their distribution outside of their network that he later today retract on our air at his own investor day. so i do think ackman, for whatever criticisms of him might be, he did is fact-based, does research, and it is hard it respond in kind. >> kate, let's be real, though. none of these guys are taking big positions without doing research. everybody keeps talking about it

and herb sites the tremendous amount of research that bill does on herbalife. and i'm sure he has. but not to suggest that dan loeb on the other side of it is not making as compelling a case because he hasn't done as much research. >> if you guys can hear me, there's no way in the short amount of time that he got involved co-do that level of resear top of have the kind of conviction that someone like ackman had. it sim possible. >> assuming he began the research and trade, after ackman put his on, do we know who that? >> we don't know what kind of -- >> he could have been in the middle of it already. we don't know. just say it. >> you know what? you would be right. i would tell you that ackman having spent -- spending ten months, it is back understanding the kind of story. >> herb, i love you, okay? and you do the best work possible. and boy, i do ever wish that in my investing career, doing the most homework and having done

the most research, paid off. it doesn't necessarily. there is a real surreal attitude about this, which is that you know what, because ackman's done the best research, therefore, set best man and therefore he wins. it is not like that at all. >> i've been short stocks where a company bought a company and within a few years they wrote the company off to zero. if you were short autonomy -- i don't know whether you short it or not, but autonomy was bought by hewlett-packard. herb says, there is no finality to this. there is. if there is, if michael johnson uses that cash flow. ceo of herbalife, take a look at cash flow, take a look at the number of shares and they decide to do a tender or get someone to buy the company, it is game over. >> you're totally right. by point of bringing up the homework, to the extent we are deconstructing this fight today,

ackman's cool approach tends to win the arguments. >> you need the government to come in and say -- >> yes. >> he made an incredible fact-base aid proed approach o y penney. >> let's get a soundbite. today's conversation between ackman and icahn went a long way past herbalife and doing business. there was dirty laundry and mud-slinging as well. let's bring up the bit about the cry baby. >> i'm telling you, he is like the cry baby in the school yard. i went it a tough school in queens. they used to beat up the little jewish boys and he was like one of the little jewish boys crying that wathat the world was takin advantage of them. and he with a was in hi office, practically sobbing about how i could help him. like the song, roux the day i ever met the guy.

>> that is icahn talking about ackman. what do you think when he is getting personal about that? >> not sure the religious references were necessary there. could have been any -- you know what i mean? >> i've been there, done that. doesn't mean i'm anti-or pro carl. >> i want to get to the meat of sort of the short issue that they brought up, jim. this is right up your wheel house. ackman sort of got into the technicals about how ---what he was doing and icahn made accusations and ackman said, listen, we think you are forcing a short squeeze on herbalife, right? you are doing something just for a short term gain. take us into the technicals of what ackman was talking about. what was he referring to with icahn? allegedly doing some. >> sure. when you buy a stock, obviously you can take delivery in the stock, okay. and the other side has to give it to you. and the seller gives it to you. when you short a stock, you have to borrow the stock first. because the -- the guy who buys

it from you, he is going to -- he want the stock. you can't just say, listen, i'm shorted. sorry, i don't have that. >> there is a physical delivery issue here. you have to have a borrow. you have to find the shares. the idea would be that if a lot of people come in and buy the stock, they will get that stock out of the vault, okay, take the stock out of the vault that is lent it a short seller and the short seller will not be able to cover. it will have to -- so the company, whoever his broker is, will cover for him. that's how a squeeze develops. you can't find the stock. you can't find the stock. >> do you think then, okay -- do you think that ackman believes icahn knows there is not enough out there to do that and if just by his name, the icahn name carries a lot of power, that if you take a position or say what your position is or hint that you've got a position, you could cause this panic to cover. >> no different from david einhorn, oh, conference calls lining mike wallace -- >> two point, if i may.

one is that in terms of einhorn, he is totally flat right now when it comes to herbalife. there was a period last year where he was short hernal herbalife. i looked into the mechanics of it, he said 20 million shares short. that was roughly the short interest at the time. as you know, that interest level is delayed and probably artificially low because of how it is reported. if you wanted to join him and go short as well, it is harder an more expensive, right? if he add big majority of the interest. it is hard to go short as well, right? >> you have to borrow shares and they can charge you a certain amount for that. but it is really important, people at home to realize, listen, you got to do work if you're in this to try to short squeeze or go into zero. they do have -- these guys have unlimited firepower, both sides. and you know, it is in -- >> it is incredible that ackman

says it is going to 0. >> you need mary jo white, you need everybody to come in and say, i'm shutting this down. arthur anderson, to shut this down to 0. >> this is based on a lot of research. he thinks the herbalife blows that out of the water. >> can i ask a quick question? jim, let me ask you a quick question. why do you think icahn won't admit that he is long with herbalife? he remained so cagey about it. >> that was disappointing. i know you tried at the end and i was hoping one more -- you tried many times to get him to talk about it. that made it sound like, that he isn't in it. but i don't know. i don't know mr. icahn. if he said, cramer, you idiot, i'm in it. i would say, okay, fine. >> we have to go. but i will give you my position, scott and jim, that he might

have a significant size above 5%, that would require an sec filing. if he says, yes, this, then it comes out he is 5 or 6% and he didn't file, he is in trouble. >> all good reasons. >> either that or maybe he took the trade-off entirely as earlier suggested. he wrote it up, pocketed -- >> he could have said that. what the harm in saying that? he would have said something. other than the fact i was bullying him. >> he may have bought millions of shares. >> scott wapner never bullied anybody in his life. >> stranger things have happened, other than the jewish boy school yard, paul simon thing. scott was asking a question we would all ask, but he was suddenly the bully. >> yeah, scott is the judge, not the plaintiff. >> earth barney frank did that to me, i got in the middle of it. that is what happened to scott to the tenth degree. scott, how did it feel to have carl icahn, can i talk, can i

talk, how did that feel? >> i didn't know what to expect. these guys were in a heavyweight battle and i was trying to keep it about them and not about me. hopefully i succeeded. >> you did a very good job, scott. kept your cool. okay, we will talk about this later on. >> what is next? >> you can restitire now, scott. doesn't get any bet are than that. >> he will do securities arbitration. >> stock is getting its mojo back. we will get more on the day just ahead. >> we have spent the last 16 minutes talking about it, if you just missed it, if you are coming out from under a a rock, please tune in. well recap the best of, the brawl. stick around. what if the nex, isn't a thing at all? it's lots of things. all waking up. connecting to the global phenomenon we call the internet of everything. ♪ it's going to be amazing.

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although watching billion airs slug is out is fun, let's get to what is going on here. today. despite the fact that apple is cratering, it is down this week. continuing to cline today is its best day in three weeks and we have s&p 500 as well. back above 1500 mark, and is now poised for its longest winning streak in 8 years, folks. i think that 1500 was that level that we cracked back in december

2007. there you go. you've got your stats. let's get straight to the trading floor. find out more. mary thompson, what are they saying down there? >> they are talk about icahn versus ackman. optimism with the u.s. and global economies are improving as we head toward week and the dow, s&p and nasdaq now all on track to post weekly gains. the nasdaq actually reversed in an earlier decline for the week even as apple continues to fall today yet another 52-week low for the tech giant. this despite -- or i should say, what is fuelling the nasdaq right now, offsetting weakness in apple is strength we are seeing in semi conductors in the wake of good earnings news and the like of kla-tecor. let's take a quick look at apple. sorry, i went out of order there. a terrible past five month force

apple. but of course we want to look at what i consider to be the stock of the day. that's herbalife. take a look at its shares. up about 3% or so. did spike during fast money. volume pulled up after that. but it is moving towards session highs. as is the dow. mandy and brian, back to you. >> mary, thank you very much. certainly is the stock of the day. in case you haven't noticed, folks, markets are getting their mojo back in a big way. we are hitting is you per la tifrs, but check this out. 22 billion flowing into stocks and bonds. bottom line here, people are interested again. be careful. because history says, one big thing could derail this run. let's get to that and why we have been rocking. with jim, ceo principle global investors and president of car cadian asset management.

jim, thank you for coming on the show. why do you think there is a sudden insurgence in equities. >> i think it is justified. justified by the fundamentals because, you know, what happened with the fiscal cliff deal on new year's eve is messy. it is typical congress. but it brings away from the table the a idea that u.s. would generate a recession in 2013. it is a messy compromise but it takes that risk off the table. the fundamentals of the u.s. economy are pretty strong. you've got cheap energy here by global standards. innovation, manufacturing moving back. and the housing sector at least will grow. this should be a good year for the u.s. economy. we are seeing that in company results. i would say that this is a particularly strong january showing. but it should be the beginning of a pretty good year. 10 to 20% in u.s. equities is my ballpark. >> 10 to 20% is what you are looking at. >> my fear here is when the

retail stocks sees headlines like multiyears and stocks nearing record highs, that's when they tend to get interested and pile in. sometimes as we have learned for example in late months of 2007, it can be near the top and they get burned. >> yeah. i really don't think that's the case this time. i'm not calling for people to stampede into the market. i think like any market strategy, you have to slowly lend your way in. but the fund manials as you just heard are increasing. manufacturing will come back as our energy prices come down. housing is coming back. i think this is a decade's story. in my busy always say that people hire me today to work for them but i really work for the future person that they will be five and ten years out. and five and ten years out from now the dynamics taking hold now are very, very bullish and so many people have money in the mattress earning nothing. so this idea that maybe they get under too late or miss the boat, this is a very long-term thing. and markets have a way of moving up in a projected stair-step

fashion and i think after 13 years of being at a plateau, well be, whether in ai a year o two or next month, or the next decade, we will look at the united states doing well. >> could you agree with jim that we could see 10 to 20% of equities this year, though? >> i believe from the point of view there is so much money on the side lines earning nothing that rubber band effect of it coming out could absolutely could do that. it is not outlandish, but i try not to call short term market moves. >> i want to get to something that was said yesterday at 30 rock. jim, i know you're in a little box there. from memory and s&p 500, what is interesting is that over time, recently, i'm always saying recently, right? we have seen the two diverge. rates have gone down. i'm trying to break out the john

madden illustrator here, markets have gone up. but there have been plenty of times within say last ten years before that, where they were going the same way. if rates normalize, jim, will we crush stocks or can they trade divergeantly? >> i would expect for the next year or two, to see rates tending upwards. probably it will start with a steepening of the yield curve. in other words, federal reserve keep the short rates at zero. but you know, 1 190 on the ten-r is too low. equities arch better alternative. even rel estate and some corporate bonds are a better alternative. i expect to see rising rates going along with the rising equity market. >> jim, i'm sorry, agree with that. but will that mean a lower stock market o 0r can rates and stocks both rise?

>> they can both rise. and i think that that happens as economy recovers. >> understood. we've got to leave it there. jim, ken, thank you very much for joining us today. >> thank you. oh how the meet mighty have fallen. apple has fallen and exxon has reclaimed that top spot. and many are asking, is tim cook, cooked? what say you, john fortt? >> mandy, no. tim cook is not cooked. reason one, tim cook is find. support from the board of directors. he is the guy that the board picked. and he has two full size ipads and mini in 2012. china labor story and management reorg, but let's look at numberes. when you factor in last year's long holiday quarter, revenue is up 27% year over year. net profit up 7% apples it apples. was it gutsy for cook to revamp

80% in single quarter and put all those costs on the balance sheet? absolutely. apple of course saying it would have been more after risk too move too slowly. reality check, let's look at paint. how much value has been lost here in $246 billion in market cap since september peak. we just broke through 52-week low today. what can you buy with that? how about general electric. ten yahoo!s, i'm not sure if you would want ten yahoos. what is interesting to me is this, if you believe apple is crushed for the long-term, that the heart of the stock, from what i can see, we will see the truth in a year one way or another. average selling prices on the iphone haven't come down much at all. if apple sells the iphone 5 design for a year and a half, and history suggests they might do that, margins might go up. but if sales are slowing, we will see that too. but tim cook wasn't hired to react it stock like this.

the way he is compensated, he is hired to play the long game. his grant stock matures after five and ten years he is not trading day-to-day, guys. >> that's what the ceos say, right? er with not here to watch the day-to-day moves of our stock. $246 billion. that's a lot. >> and john, we got to go, they all say that, but that is garbage. >> that is the only report cart card after ceo's performance is a stock price. period. goes down for a long enough time. >> restricted value or not, they like to say it anyway. >> obama bomb shell of federal court saying the president violated the constitution with some of his ray appointment. >> if you missed it, we will reair the clash of the titans. the best moments between the epic telephone battle between bill ackman and carl icahn. stick around.

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great job. [ applause ] thank you. and on a protocol note, i'd like to talk to tim hill about his tendency to use all caps in emails. [ shouting ] oh i'm sorry guys. ah sometimes the caps lock gets stuck on my keyboard. hey do you wanna get a drink later? [ male announcer ] hold packages at any fedex office location. welcome back. here is the beginning of the brawl. when icahn and ackman argue about a deal they did together ten years ago which set the tone for their tenuous relationship. >> i got involved with this ackman guy, and it can cost me -- it cost me money.

>> because it cost you money, carl, because the court said you renegged on an agreement you guys had and the court repeatedly said that. >> let me say one thing. i will tell you and i've done stuff in the '70s and '80s on handshake. and i will tell you categorically, ackman knew he wouldn't get half of the profits. he was in such trouble he was in no position to ask for anything. at the end of the deal, he said, would you do me favor and sign something called schmuk insu insuran insurance. in this business, you want a friend, you get a dog. >> carl wanted 80 in cash and we could have sold it for 90 bucks

to someone else, or i can't remember the exact number. now schmuk insurance, who comes comes up with that terminology, carl icahn. the risk so us is that carl got the company. carl bid for the company and got it, we got nothing. if someone else with a lower cost of capital and carl ended up with the company then carl would have to pay us as long as the deal happened in three years. i thought he might wait three years before making a bid or hold the thing up so we didn't get paid. that is the risk to us. i was concern with dealing with carl icahn because unfortunately carl icahn does not have a good reputation for being hard shake guy. >> this is where it heats up. they are discussing current battle which is herbalife. this is a longer clip here. we do want you to get the full picture of back and forth basil, let's have a listen. >> let's start with what i want to say. ackman is a liar, okay? to begin with, i live mid life from 1960s and '70s by

handshake. i almost lost my firm a few times by hand shakes. ackman has -- he's got one of the worst reputations on wall street. and i'm going to tell you this herbalife is a classic example of what he does. let's look at herbalife. ackman was doing badly in 2012. down 2, 3%. probably woke up in the morning and said, let's see what company we can destroy and put out a bear rate on it. happened from the late '80s until now and did a bear rate. kill the stock. now we can show investors we made more opinion money. by the way, if we can mark these things and make more money, he says he is not making profit, but that gives him a better rate of return for himself. mang has done that. if you read the articles, he has done it all his life. i swear to you, and we didn't make a lot of money on this damn crazy thing we did with him. i made 4 million.

but i was insensed. i adverb al agreement with him that he would not get any piece of the money and, as i said, in major, major trouble and he is basically lying. he is in major trouble and he said look, i'm not taking profits. there is one thing i will do. i don't want you flipping the stock in a couple of weeks or months or whatever it was. and therefore put that in. we didn't flip the stock. the agreement we thought unfortunately said, that it only applies to flipping the stock. and unfortunately, the agreement wasn't well written. my lawyer is a great lawyer but this one is missed. so we go into that. i tell you something, as far as i'm concerned, i wanted to have dinner once with me, i had dinner with him. i got to tell you, i left and i couldn't figure out if he was the most sanctimonious guy i ever met or the most arrogant. he takes a risk. he goes short 20% of a company, goes out there and i'll tell you, this could be the mother of all short squeezes.

and i will tell you this. that one day, if somebody -- if somebody wants all this stock back, what is ackman going to do? he will be just history repeats itself. back where he was in 2003. with all of the guys redeeming and where does he get the money in the stock for this? but that's not my issue. i don't have an investment with ackman. i wouldn't have an investment if you paid me to. if ackman paid me to. the invest many is second to none. as far as i'm concerned, i made a huge mistake getting involved with him. and what is even worse is that even after he won, after he won, he planted article nets new york times pounding his chest to tell the world how great he was. and you know, as far as i'm concerned, the guy is a major loser. it was once said about a guy who

spoke in parliament, young man, i would be happy if i could be assured of one thing in my life as you are sure of everything. if you ever listen to ackman, he will tell you what to do, how to do it. i was dizzy after having dinner with him. >> carl -- >> okay, listen, i will tell you, one day, i think half could be the mother of all short squeezes. that's not me saying it. but ackman did it. look at the timing. ackman did it with a week to go or month to go before he had to show results. results were bad for 2012 and this got results up double. so he could get fees for himself. then he talks about charity. that's complete bull [ bleep ]. he is not giving it to charity. that's assuming that they are charities themselves. that's what i i will say about ackman. >> carl, let me remind you we are on television so that is an

interesting choice of words. >> let me do this. and guys on the trading floor down here at the new york stock exchange clearly appreciated it as well. >> i would like to -- >> can i just say a couple things and move on. >> yes. >> just to clear the record, okay. first, not having a bad year in 2012. herbalife did not double our returns. that's just false. >> i can't hear what you said, bill. i'm sorry, i can't hear you. >> carl, you and i can talk off line. we are wasting the world's time on this thing. >> i think that carl either has a very, very bad memory or trouble with the truth. we have a very -- we didn't make a verbal agreement on hall wood. he has very good lawyers, as he says. just read the agreement. the agreement we put on the web. ten-page agreement. he can say today what he thought he said back then. but this is much more important to me than carl. obviously we read the agreement. carl is a big boy. he signed the agreement and we

had several courts conclude we were right. and he held us up as long as he could. he is not used to having someone stand up to him. particularly a little guy like me in 2003, and we did nothing wrong. we criticized a big public company. they made our lives miserable. we were investigated. but the benefit of investigation is we were exonerated and we got our dues. the world realized we were right. the stock went from 70 to single dollars. went to a couple thousand basis points. i gave my share to a charitable foundation. he carl can try to orchestrate a short squeeze. he can try to scare his investors from me, which is what is sound like he is doing on

this call. he are an unleveraged fund. we are thought fowl if in the way we do our business. i told carl, after the whole thing he called me up and he literally said, bill, we can be friends now. i wish i had a recorded conversation. and i said, look, bill, you are no friend of mine. every time he does this, i will defend myself. >> i never said i wanted to be friends with you bill. >> okay, carl. okay, can carl. >> you said you would like to be friends so we could invest together. >> carl i have no interest -- you think i want it invest with you. >> i wouldn't invest with you if you were the last man on earth. >> a clip after contentious interview. let's get to reaction. joined by kate kelly and robert frank here as well. what is interesting kate, i've been going back and forth with a former carl icahn employee. i don't want to give up his name. what he said though, is this, this employee he e-mailing me

about carl, is that ackman papered the deal better. carl is notorious for not paying attention to legal ease. >> why he calls it a schmuc agreement. >> yes. maybe there is a difference in legal materials. ackman is a harvard grad. icahn is a tough new york kid. they both may be right in what they thought the deal was. >> maybe. i don't know the merits of it so i can't say. i think ackman is a bit after boy scout. he airs 07on the side of trans parncy. you will see there is a lot disclosed in there that your regular investor wouldn't disclose. i looked at swap agreements put on for a stock, i think a company in. in any case, you never see that level of detail he shared at the time.

that's just his game. that's why he treats investors to a four-hour speech -- >> and maybe there is backlash against that style. >> yes, on, maybe we should call it ak-lash. sorry, coined that. >> bill a pontificator. this is a time when the hedge fund industry is under assault. wouldn't you agree? >> right. >> fees are under assault. there is a lot of talk about macro managers, folks investing in what they want be were late to the game. why should not investor not get into a liquid fund. don't have gates and so on. we have u.s. attorney investigating sac and other funds. >> it is under fire. >> it sp. >> what is your take? >> i spent ten years covering the wealthy and looking at their psychology. i looked a the this interview from a psychological perspective. what jumped out at me is this is not about money. this was not about a trade or

even this past legal dispute. this was about respect and reputation. a lawyer -- >> and grudges. >> and grudges. and personal vendetta -- like i'm not your friend. you are my friend. very personal issues. >> you are ma lining my reputation. you are a liar. >> exactly. when a $10 million guy files a lawsuit, it is about the money. when a $10 billion guy files a lawsuit, it's about personal issues. >> they are so wealthy, it doesn't matter. >> personal issues to me stood out here. again, a lot about, i'm your friend. you're not my friend. about respect. bullying. and if you look at these guys -- >> it is about putting the potatoes in the sack on the table. >> let's be honest pep and icahn. and i'm not bashing him. he said, we didn't make a lot of money on the deal, maybe $4 million.

>> very important point. >> let's look at wealth differential between these two guys. icahn worth between 14 to $18 billion. ackman, we don't know what he is worth. but he has never been on an official billionaires list. let's call him $700 million, maybe a billion. the wealth differential. and you could hear icahn saying, we don't know what he is worth, he is a loser. money a measure but it really is is about respect here. >> the hedge fund industry is under fire in general. i remember talking to a pension fund manager for a large company i know in the d.c. area recently. he said, i don't want anything to do with a guy like bill ackman. he also mentioned david einhorn. i don't need these guys coming out swinging, who knows what they might do to move the stock or investor perception. i don't need my board why i'm with somebody like this and may

potentially move the needle. >> icahn gives the impression he is so wealthy he doesn't care what people think of him any more. he was swearing on air. >> and a different generation. like hank greenburg. >> old school. >> old school. >> i want to make this simple point. sometimes it is about very personal issues and this was very personal. >> our producer did a get job. ackman said, icahn could have crushed me and i was a nobody and he probably didn't think i would do anything. >> some people thinks it is the size of the wallet. >> it is the size of the brain. >> size can matter. >> that's about my ears. >> you hear better. >> part two of battle. right after this. ouncer ] you are a business pro. executor of efficiency.

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coming up "closing bell", christine lagarde has the role

of the u.s. economy. and bill gates will tell us what microsoft has up its sleeve. plus, why he doesn't allow his kids to use any apple products. what? speaking of apple, that stock hitting a one-year low. find out if it is too cheap to pass up. and if you are real good, mandy and i will show you more of the ackman/icahn battle of the it toians. >> thanks, bill. i will try to do this in an australian accent. welcome back, mate. that didn't work. clash of titans. has that was good? >> that was bad. considering you've been working with me for 18 months, i would think you would have a better aussie accent by now. but your slang is second to none. >> oy! slash of the titans -- which one is it? happened earlier on cnbc.

now it gets better, folks. icahn accusing ackman of dumping and talking over the billionaire. >> i'm simply asking you if you are long herbalife as the world want to know and the motives behind it. that's all we want to know. that's what every person watching this program wants to know and if that position is in all -- >> can i yes. >> i'm going to give it to you. max called me up. he said ackman is making at these aspersions about you. he is going to come on saying you're the worst man in the world. do you want to go on tv? i said yeah. that's why i came on. >> right. >> but i'll tell you about herbalife and what i will tell you and what i said before. you know, i think ackman did herbalife because i don't -- obviously i don't like ackman. ackman is lying about what happened. i didn't need the 4 million bucks i made there. what incensed me was that he weaseled out of the deal. we'll leave that alone. you're right.

happened ten years ago. leave it alone. he weiss aseled out and i'll te thaw. i am known as a tough guy but if you take my handshake you live by it. there is nobody who said i ever went back on a handshake. now let's go back into herbalife. right now i believe, i'm not going to the s.e.c. or the fdcc but i believe he goes out, has 300 people in a room. this is the typical ackman. i wouldn't care if it was anybody else but ackman but he goes into this room and he gets 300 people and he tells them how bad this company is. it's a class -- you scare the hell out of people, get the stock down. he marks the stock on december 31st and makes $600 million bucks on paper and tells the world how great he is. he's giving it to charity. and shows the world he's made 12% which isn't so great anyway. i'd like to say we made 28% last year without going and having to go pump and dump stock and having to go and have rooms full of people.

>> okay. number one carl is free to make a tender offer for the company. you want to bid for the company go ahead. >> you don't have to tell me what i'm free to do. >> okay. number one. number two obviously we don't think there is going to be a tender offer for the company or. we don't think anybody will write a check to buy a business we believe is fraudulent. number two carl icahn says the behavior is bad. number three at the irish stone conference in front of 500 people carl icahn pitched trinity industries which he was short 22% of the outstanding shares according to "fortune" magazine. you can tell us whether it is true or false but you did precisely that so i find it interesting that you have an issue with herbalife. we simply provided to the public full transparency on this investment. 330 slides in detail. not scaring people but going through the facts about the company. okay? we did exhaustive research over a year and a half. we'll either be proven right or

proven wrong. okay. we shorted the stock. we have not covered our shares. we believe in what we -- and we have more to come by the way. >> right. >> we have some questions the company has given us the opportunity to ask. we will have responses for every issue they raised and their response of presentation to us and what i thank carl for is certainly helped highlight herbalife and the issues at herbalife and my guess is that he bought herbalife. if he did because i think someone leaked it to the press and flipped it out when the stock went up and made a good trade. congratulations on a good trade. i don't believe there is any real investor who can own this business long term because we believe it is a pyramid scheme and we believe we can prove that to a degree of certainty. >> i appreciate, bill, that you called me a great investor. i thank you for that. unfortunately i can't say the same for you. >> there's more. after the break we'll get final reaction to today's epic battle. right? fair to call it that right? >> epic battle. >> what do they call it in

australia? >> epic battle. >> i do know australian. >> yeah. >> i'll drink some fosters on the commercial break. >> in french battle royale. >> with cheese. back after this. more rain... [ thunder rumbles ] ♪ [ male announcer ] when the world moves... futures move first. learn futures from experienced pros with dedicated chats and daily live webinars. and trade with papermoney to test-drive the market. ♪ all on thinkorswim. from td ameritrade. [ dog barks ] ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] something powerful is coming. ♪ see it on february 3rd.

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a federal appeals court ruled today that president barack obama violated the constitution when he used a so-called recess appointment to fill vacancies on the national labor relations board last year. a few minutes ago a white house spokesman jay carney said the administration disagrees with the ruling but the u.s. chamber of commerce said it was pleased with the ruling as did house speaker john boehner who accused the obama administration of using the nlrb to impose regulations that hurt our economy. the ruling puts the new consumer financial protection bureau director richard cordray in a vulnerable position as well because president obama used a similar maneuver to install him last year. brian, back to you. >> hello. there we go. >> thank you very much eamonn javierers. okay. some final thoughts. kate kelly obviously we've been watching all day here on cnbc the epic battle between ackman versus icahn, a real clash of styles here. >> that's what i think, mandy. what you're seeing is in this case an older generation versus the younger whipper snapper

generation. i actually think even in ackman's own circle of friends there is a split emerging in terms of the public, you know, activism that ackman espouses the four-hour presentation, using the press to kind of get the message out versus the much more low key let my filings speak for themselves. that's what you're seeing from david einhorn increasingly. the man is not afraid to get on an earnings call and ask sharp questions but he has been very mum about his position on herbalife. we only just learned through an investor meeting he briefly had a legislator on herbalife in 2012 that he has since flattened out to our understanding. dan loathe let the filings speak for themselves. they are not going public with this. they know their industry is under some assault and want to let ackman do his own thing. >> you know, icahn has made so much money in netflix in like a matter of weeks. >> right. >> i mean, hundreds of millions of dollars. >> right. >> likely over this trade. right? this is probably the best trade of his career i would imagine. >> right. >> you wonder why he wants to come back into this