all right. remember, tuesdays you do 19 straight? i don't know. it's always more. i promise just when you are on "mad money." i'm jim cramer. i will see you tomorrow! we have breaking news to start with tonight and it is devastating. a massive tornado has created a widespread disaster in the oklahoma city area. the biggest drama is what you are seeing right now, a school in moore, oklahoma, rescue crews are looking for survivors. we alts have reports of terrified parents rushing to the scene of that destroyed school. here's cnbc's bertha coombs with more. hello, bertha. >> reporter: hello, larry. your heart goes out to the people of moore, oklahoma. the tornado ripping through the area this afternoon causing

massive demonstration in that suburb of about 55 thoumt people. no official estimate yet on injuries or fatality, but the devastation is clear. the national weather service has given the twister a preliminary ef4 rating. that is the second highest rating. but back 14 years ago, this area suffered a category-5 tornado that was devastating and caused massive fatalitys and devastation. an elementary school you mentioned, plaza towers appears to have taken a direct hit in moore. tonight, the search continues for young children in that school. according to a.p., several children somebody pulled out of the rubble alive. the kfor reporter on the scene, lance west, said the search is under way for the youngest student. the students between the 4th and 6th grade managed to be evacuated. the obama organization reached

out to the governor, janet napolitano calling mary fallon telling her president obama has directed fema to leave no needs unmet. the same area as i mentioned having seen a devastating tornado, one of the biggest and worst every, larry, beyond that jop lynn, missouri -- joplin, missouri in 1919. back to you. >> bertha, it looks like from the pictures, first responders are getting into the school. but i can't be sure. do we have any reports on that? are they there on the ground in enough numbers to rescue these school kids? >> they are, indeed. we have been hearing reports, monitoring the coverage of kfor the affiliate in kansas city for a time. they were actually knocked off the air because of the storms ongoing into this evening. they have gotten in there. the weather service says much of the weather has moved away from oklahoma city. it's gone west and to the east

and to the south. so the area is a little more calm now. so that search now at least not likely to be interrupted by more severe weather. >> all right. many thanks, ber that coombs. now, let's see where we are with the storms and whether more oare on the way. brian norcross joins us with the details. good evening, brian. >> reporter: good evening to you. the storms from the area have moved to the east. take a look, let me show you what the radar is showing here at this moment. the red box as we see here are tornado warnings, the yellow ones are severe thunderstorm warnings. in other words, not rotation, but still damaging wind. the system that went through moore, south of oklahoma city has moved up in this direction. you see this is all a part of a line that is still active extending southwest of dallas up to northwest of st. louis. now, tomorrow, we still have the potential of some storms over here or down in here, especially

and a satellite chance a little farther east than we have today. so these storms are slowly going to diminish this evening. stormy, somewhat of a chance. these massive tornado likely we saw today, likely a historic tornado, that kind of tornado is not expected tomorrow. >> many thanks, appreciate it. now, for the moment, we may return to oklahoma city coverage and tornadoes as we go along this evening. let me shift back to washington, d.c. the irs scandal, where tea party and conservative groups were targeted. it turns out, virtually the entire white house staff knew about the problem and the treasury investigation for several weeks, except the president. i'm not blaming him for the irs problem. as a former white house staffer myself, i don't understand the lack of information flow into the oval office. he seemed to be the only guy in the building that didn't know. anyway, what was the role also of the irs union? that is called the national treasury employers union.

did they quarterback this tea party attack? all the more reason in my opinion for a special council to get to the bottom of this. let's get a handle on what we learned today on this scandal. john harwood joins us now with the details. good evening. >> good evening, larry. the white house dribbled out a little more information today about the disclosure at the end of the process, after the i.g.'s report, investigation had been done, jay carney last week had said the white house council's office was informed in late april and didn't pass on that information to the president. today, he clarified that earlier, lawyers in the white house council oofs in mid-april got the news. then on april 24th, kat rumner the white house council and shared that with the chief of staff and now jay carney maintains they did not tell the president because there is nothing he or anyone else could do at that point. >> we knew the subject of the

session and we knew the nature of some of the potential findings, but we did not have a copy of the draft report. we did not know the details, the scope or the motivation surrounding the misconduct and we did not know who was responsible. most importantly, the report was not filed and still very much subject to change. >> reporter: of course, larry, it is important to note the disclosure today shed no light on how and why the targeting was initiated in the cincinnati office that screened those tax exempt organizations. we may get more information about that when doug schulman, the bush appointee who served his five years was in charge of the guy who got fired last week testified before the senate finance committee. >> all right. john, i just don't understand why they didn't give the president the info. that's the other thing. i'm not accusing him of theng anything. i just don't know why he doesn't have a right and a duty to get the information. lanny davis, you know lanny

davis wrote a rough piece saying the white house council should be fired b for not giving the information up. >> reporter: the information that jay carney got today it was the end stage of the process the report was not released. the president was going to have to wait for the public release in any case. he has a million things coming in, why share thats information with him if you didn't have the report and simply tell him, well, it's going to come. you might as well wait for it, anyway. that was the.that jay carney made. >> thanks, john harwood. we present the update. so as the irs plot thickens, can we trust the obama administration to investigate itself or is it time for a special council? joining us now cnbc contributor and former pennsylvania governor ed rendell and former attorney joe degeneva. he served during the clinton

passport file in 1992 and he was to probe the international brotherhood of teamters in 1997. gentleman, welcome. governor rendell, i want to go to you first on this, to me, as a former white house staff guy, i worked under reagan. you know that, i do not understand why the president wasn't given this information. i want to start here. i'm not making accusations. i'm not saying he had a darn thing to do with this. i'm not saying anybody in the white house has a darn thing to do with this. in terms of running the place, if the council gets the information and the chief of staff gets the information and the press secretary gets the information, how can the president not get the information? >> well, larry, it's a good question. let me start by saying there is no conspiracy here t. head of the irs at the time was an appointtee of president george w. bush. he wouldn't be a part of the conspiracy to help the obama administration. having said that, you are right. there is a pattern here. remember on the a.p. scandal the attorney general didn't inform

the president what i will tell you is the governor of pennsylvania, if my staff didn't inform me about things as important as wire -- taking e-mails from the a.p. surrupticiously and a scandal like this i would have fired people. i think lanny davis is right. it's absolutely outrageous the president was kept in the dark and there is no explanation for it. you run the government. you manage the government. you need to be informed of these things. >> that's it. joe degeneva. i want to give you a whack at this question. the news came out today. how in the heck can you stop the information flow? you got a president now, joe, who seems not to know a whole lot about a whole bunch of crises and this is yet another one. >> well, i think what you have is a design strategy to keep things away from him as a policy. this is to create plausible deniability. so he can say, as he has done now repeatedly over the last few weeks, that he didn't know about

something. i think this is bad government. i think you can believe that the president is ignorant and we all want to believe that, that this is not some blatter. it says there is no conspiracy because there was a bush appointee. we don't know what happened, period. we don't know if there was a conspiracy. we don't know if there wasn't a conspiracy. there needs to be a thorough investigation. the first thing that needs to happen is subpoenas need to be issued for documents and there needs to be a special council. there is no way that the justice department can investigate this matter. they have a political conflict of interest. this directly is related to the 2012 election theoretically. they should get out of it, but there is no way they're going to do it. the justice department is going to run this investigation and it will be dogged by questions about its legitimacy from the very beginning.

>> why is joe degeneva not right, governor rendell? >> well, first of all, joe's decision here is pretty preem cure. there is going to be senate oversight hearings. >> what is my decision? >> oversight hearings. that we need a special prosecutor. i think it's palermoture. >> oh mi god sclmt you got to be kidding me. >> they have subpoena subpoena power. let's see what they come up with. again, if the head man is a bush apparentee. >> let's go there, it's all george bush's fault. >> no, no, i'm not saying it's not george bush's fault. >> oh, please, stop talking about a bush appointee. that is so trivial. >> it's the fact. it's not trivial. >> oh, baloney. oh, for god's sake, giver it up, ed, when they got information from the irs employees, that was a crime. the senate in the house don't investigate crimes t. justice department does. when pro publica got taxpayer information. when taxpayer information -- >> all of that stuff. >> that is a crime.

>> but your theory must rest on the fact that someone in the white house ordered the -- >> absolutely no. i said nothing about the white house. >> well, that's what you are implying. >> all i said was you don't have any proof. >> governor ren dem, look, i just want to ask you this, i'm not, right now, i'm not blaming the white house. okay. >> neither am i. >> i'm just saying. i don't know what president obama had to do with this or anything. i'm just asking you this. hang on. ed rendell the principals of this thing. let's look at this lois lerner, doug schulman, who was bush's guy. steve miller, who was the acting guy. those people all basically lied to congress at one time or another, including the bush guy, because they said they did not know, they did not know about these attacks. they did not know about this bad process. and they did know. they all knew in 2011 and

schulman definitely had to know by 2012. those are facts and they lied to congress. my point is, if the top group keeps lying about the targeting of conservative groups, then that tells me right down the chain of command, there's going to be lies, unless as joe said, there are subpoenas under oath to get to the bottom of this. david werfel is going to go into the committee. he's going to run the irs. i don't know who he is. he is probably a fine man. he will be there four months, not nearly enough time. lack lew, he is an obama operative. that's why i think you need an independent council. >> you will have senate and a house committees with subpoena power, number one. that's i think an important thing and listen, the thing that you guy, you guys get enmeshed in there, you notice i have great respect for you, larry, but you get enmeshed in this. this is exactly what the public doesn't want. exactly what the public doesn't want. they don't want washington wasting their times on scandals

that really have no motivation -- >> how 15. how convenient. >> no, no, they want washington to be talking about jobs, about education and energy. >> how 15t. >> and certainly about fixing theet the. it's what's wrong with washington and wrong when the democrats do it. it's wrong when the republicans do it. >> apparently, nothing happened here. apparently, this ir thing is just a mirage. let me tell you something, there were crimes here. when pro publica got taxpayer information. that was a crime. when the romney information was given to another organization that was a crime. i'm perfectly happy to have the house and the senate do their investigations. i didn't say they shouldn't. what i did say was simultaneously, there needs to be a federal grand jury going on an someone needs to be put in front of it and subpoenas, i hope the house and the senate investigate until the cows come home. but there were crimes committed here. there is no doubt about i. someone needs to be held accountable. you know, it's really an inkreent truth.

inany -- an inconvenient truth. it went through 2011. my gosh, all these smart people. we are told they are the smartest people that have ever occupied the white house and they just found out about it a couple weeks ago. what a surprise. >> governor ren dem, i want to throw this in. we will not have time to go through it properly. perhaps both of you will come back. >> any time. >> the national. >> with the subpoena. >> the national treasury employers union, it's a liberal government union. it represents the irs workers. that union has not been discussed yet, but it may be the source of this problem of these attacks on the conservative groups and on march 31st, 2010, this is according to american spectator. you may disagree with them. lord knows. but they're making a case that the head of that union, col len kelly, met with president obama. this is shortly after the united decision came down.

i am troubled by that, governor ren dem. because i have been looking for a quarterback. i have been looking for a quarterback for this leftist movement in the irs and now i see this government union and i say to myself, that could be the quarterback mt. >> larry, quickly, no. one, i think they can find out about that with subpoena power. number two, i repeat, to weed a conspiracy theory, you have to assume a george w. bush appointtee was in on it. ludicrous. >> you don't need a conspiracy to commit crimes. >> larry said there is a possible conspiracy between the union and the white house. larry just said that. >> who knows, who knows? >> you have to assume a george w. bush apointee was in on it. >> keep going, ed, are you doing fine. keep blaming george bush. he's responsible for the tornadoes, afternoont he? you guys really are clowns.

utter fools. >> governor, all i'm saying, governor. >> don't en1u89 me. all i'm saying is he was an apointee of george w. bush. it's not george w. bush's fault. >> ed, he lied, too, i said that. he lied. >> he was trying to help obama beat romney. of course, you don't know. because it's ludicrous. >> maybe. >> it's ludicrous. >> all i'm saying is schulman lied just like lerner lied. >> helping obama, ludicrous, joe. >> that's why there has to be an investigation. >> you are the only person that mentioned the conspiracy, not larry. >> ed rendell, i hope you guys come back. you make a lovely couple. i appreciate it very much. now, folks, it's not just the washington post casting the falsehoods coming out of team obama right now. the congressional bug office also definitely showed the president misled the public about his budget and tax plans as recently as last month. we've got that story.

later on, a senate committee will drag apple's name through the mud tomorrow hinting it fiensd ways to add taxes. we have the breaking details on that story as well. i think he's going for corporate tax reform, which remind me about free market capitalism. we will get back "the kudlow report", the massive tornado in oklahoma as soon as we get more breaking news. .

our budget will be reduced by another $2 trillion, so that all told we will have surpassed the goals in deficit reduction that independent economists believe we need to stabilize our finances. but it does so in a balanced and responsible way. >> really, mr. president? well, it seems like the congressional bucket ofls didn't get the same budget memo that you did. get this, i know it's a shocker, but some of the president's other budget promises fall short as well. the president promised to cut deficits by an additional $2

trillion. but the ceo's report find just about 1 trillion in deficit reduction and deficits rise again after 2017 and obama promised $1.2 trillion in spending cuts the ceo review finds just $172 billion and the president promised to balance budget approach, a balanced approach to the budget. but guess what? the review finds that tax hikes outweighs spending cuts by nearly 6-1. that is not balanced. however, joining us on set tonight, business insider's ceo and editor-in-chief henry blojit and henry kukis. >> i think one point i would make is the only way we are going to close the gap is by raising taxes and reducing long-term spending. >> where do you want to raise

the taxes? >> i think you can raise lots of tax, the wellthy can go up, generally. >> northern more than we had, we just got $600 billion. >> if you look at a gdp basis, spending is at 22%. we have been at about 20 for both. we fwt to converge on that number if we want to balance the number. >> what's your take? >> i'm not sure what bothers me more the fact that the president's numbers didn't quite add up or the fact that he has a budget which lowers the debt of the gdp later, not sooner. listen, as you taught me, what council, what happens in those first two or three years. >> that's the only thing. >> he actually takes it, takes up 4 or 5 percentage.. when he runs the obama foundation, that's when the deficit gens to drop. >> i love the obama foundation. i just think 6:1, i appeal to your sense of fairness 6:1, tax

revenues over budget cuts, sounds completely unbalanced to me. >> i think part of it, what they will come back to is what your projections are in the out years. that's what a part of the differentials is. but, yes, i think it could certainly be more balanced an 6:1. >> the citizen goal was talking $3 of spending cuts for every dollar of revenues. years ago, ronald reagan made a similar deal and gefr e never got the spending cuts. so is it credible? >> oh, listen, over the long term, this administration and, you know, basically all your leftist economists think the united states is dramatically 81 taxed. they think tax is a share of the gdp need to go way above 18%. i seen liberal think tanks, 23%, 2005%. 27%. do taxes need to go up? maybe they do, unless we focus

on getting that spending control, getting those entitlement controls, we won't be able to tax our way out of this. >> here's the thing that bothers me, i don't want to raise all these tax, obama care is going to raise it, too. you and i probably disagree. obama says his spending cuts are $1.2 trillion over ten years. the cbo says only 172 billion. that is a humongous gap. that troubles me. it is duplicitous. they are playing the same games that everybody is playing. >> obviously, we had paul reen playing games with his budget. it's going on on both sides, i think that probably the obama administration is saying, look, we are not getting everything we asked for. let's start here, we will meet somewhere in the middle. i'm glad to hear jim say taxes have to go up a little bit. that is a sign of reason. i think. a lot of people say we cannot raise tax, we've raised that. that's it. spending has to go from 22% of gdp to 17% of gdp. this is going to be a very

different administration. what i'd like the administration the say is you mentioned paul ryan. paul ryan at least gave a sort of a long-term outlook of where he thinks spending an taxes should be. the president hasn't said how much tax, how much revenue are we going to need over the long term, if he did the current tax -- we will need a value add. >> he has, the answer is more. more tax revenue. >> more plus more times more. >> we got a real disaster on our hands in oklahoma. we're going to get the latest on the tornado damage and frantic rescue efforts. i'm so worried about those school kids with everybody else. that's up next on "the kudlow report." .

we have breaking news out of oklahoma city tonight, a massive tornado has hit. once again, are you looking live at that destroyed elementary school in moore, oklahoma, where the rescue crews are looking for survivors. let's go back to bertha coombs for the latest. once again, good evening, bertha. >> reporter: good evening, larry. it shouldn't come as too much of the news given the sight of the devastation and what we've seen. the medical examiner's office in oklahoma city telling nbc news at this point there were ten fatalitys. the bodies are en route tomorrow to the chief medical examiner's office. no further details available.

as you mentioned. one of the areas that appear to have been taken a direct hit was moore, oklahoma. that was a suburb south of oklahoma city. the area that took a direct hit was a neighborhood with an elementary school towers plaza elementary school. their search is under way, this tornado took place at a time when school was letting out. so there was some kids still in school. others able get out at this particular school, according to reports, the older children in the 4th, rath and 6th grade were able to get out. children in k-3 were unaccounted for. according to a.p. there were several children rescued live from the rubble. as you can imagine, a very intense scene in moore, oklahoma tonight, larry. >> bertha, nbc news is reporting that the hospital in moore was destroyed. that sounds like a real bad

story. >> reporter: one of the weather channel reporters was saying this is the worst devastation he seen in a single area thins the tornadoes hit joplin, missouri, it leveled the town more than 150 people died in that particular devastation. this town, larry, remarkably was hit hard just 14 years ago. it's not often that you would see this kind of devastation from a tornado hit again in the same place. >> bertha, i hate to interrupt, but we actually have somebody on the phone, oak, thank you, bertha coombs. we will come back to you in a few moments. congressman representative james along ford of oklahoma city. -- langford, of oklahoma city. is that your district? >> it's just about 6 miles sourt of my district. we share a border and this is actually 6 miles from me. >> what can you tell me on the ground? what can you tell me right now? >> the key things are people

trying to clear the streets as far as emergency response. first things first, trying to get people on the outside, have you the largest number of people, that will be schools, daycares, theaters, any place where there is a large gathering of people. most of the homes, the home searchs is happening with neighbors rather than emergency response because they can't physically get into those locations. you talk about a tornado a mile wide and everything destroyed in that mile. all the dear, all remnants of those homes now are on the streets. you have like .er line, so you physically can't get people and materials in there unless you walk or run and you can't because there is no clear space. >> congressman, let me just ask, look, i'm worried about everybody. we're going to pray for everybody in this terrible storm. but i'm particularly worried about the young school kids, apparently, the youngest school kids may be the ones in most trouble. a, are the first responders getting in there, are the rescuers getting in there and, b, what else can you tell us about these young children?

>> that has been a priority location for the first response. first response is making their way in there. they're getting in there by foot. they are working in there by hand. like i said, machinery and get more people in there to be able to help. they are focused on. that they have been able to pull some children out. i do not have the latest update in the last couple of minutes where we are with that. that is obviously one of many priority locations there. >> all right, mr. lang ford, we appreciate. god bless. thank you for helping us tonight. >> thank you. >> we will come back to this story throughout the hour. this will be a big story tomorrow. all right. hang on a second. stay with us. we're going to take a quick commercial break. then we'll be back about tomorrow's big story. .

jopli joplin again the big story we have been following this evening is a massive tornado in oklahoma. let's get some more from bridgestone norcross from "the weather channel." what do you have? >> larry, i want to show you what i have this afternoon and what they were looking at radar in oklahoma. take a look at this map here joplin here's the radar joplin

this is the city, the elementary school we have been watching so closely at plaza towers elementary school joplin this is when the storm peaked about 3:20 central time joplin watch as we go through time here joplin i'll go every 5 minutes, crosses i-35 joplin notice not as many purples joplin so on the east side of i-35, not as strong a tornado. still extremely formidable very unfortunately joplin then it moved on quickly out of the way joplin the storm weakened to the east joplin so very unfortunately, this storm, which didn't have a very long life actually peaked in intensity right over the elementary school, the plaza towers almostry joplin there is another school in the area, briarwood elementary that we haven't heard much about joplin hopefully, it's good news we haven't heard, we don't know, though joplin about a mile and a half wide path through the southern part of moore, oklahoma, south of where the big tornado hit in 2000 or 1999 that killed 36

people joplin this is a wider tornado in terms of intensity, hard to say whether it is as intense as that one was, but it's going to be close joplin this is going to be probably the biggest tornado disaster we have ever seen in the united states. >> brian, since we last talked, which i think was about a quarter hour ago, are you still seeing more new tornado threats next day, next week? >> there is a few for tomorrow in the arcotechs area joplin the arcotechs would be the center of the tornado threat joplin it does extend further north and south joplin the atmosphere is becoming less favorable for these strong tornadoes already this evening joplin. >> brian norcross, thank you very much joplin we appreciate it. let's get a preview of what should be a big day for apple and its ceo on capitol hill joplin ayman javers joins us with all the details.

>> reporter: good evening, larry, carl levin gin, the u.s. senator who is doing the chretien in discretion joplin he said they set up in any country anywhere around the world. he unveiled that detail in a new report from the subcommittee on investigations. he says apple entities were not tax declaredentties of any jurisdiction joplin they were legally registered in ireland. they weren't tax residents there or in the united states. he says am had net income of $30 billion from 2009-2012 but paid no corporate taxes from '09 to 2012 joplin it had a mailing address in cork, ireland but for the physical presence anywhere and no employees joplin in two of the three directors board members of that eventty were apple, ink ploy yes, sir based in the united states. now, take a look at what apple says, they have released their testimony for tomorrow's hearing. they say that at $6 billion, apple is likely the largest

corporate income taxpayer in the united states. they say apple does not use tax gym gimmicks joplin they say the existence of this entity, apple international does not actually reduce their tax liability joplin now, carl levin was joined in this xramps by john mccain who halls had tough words for apple. take a listen joplin. >> apple capexti apple executiv boast they are the 2nd highest corporate joplin they are the largest tax avoiders joplin it's unacceptable joplin am, they're not the only one, they're the most egregious ofteneder. >> now, larry, tim cook, as we say, will be up on capitol hill tomorrow. he will be asked to explain the details that have been released in this report today joplin he will be there with other apple executives joplin we will bring you all of that tomorrow morning. he will be facing very tough questions in the context of this

report joplin. >> ayman javers, thanks very, very much joplin take a look at this, apple's expense was the third highest at $14 billion joplin that's federal, state, local joplin how can the senate harass tim cook when apple is already paying so much joplin let's bring back henry bloj it and what do you make of this story? >> i am, first of all, surprised on how tough they are being on apple joplin it shows how fall apple has fallen joplin apple is spectacular at dodging taxes joplin nobody is alleging that they're doing anything illegal, however joplin i think apple's point is going to be, how could you expect us not to have our accounttants and lawyers construct ways for to us pay the least amount of factions possible joplin that's ridiculous joplin they point out, obviously, they paid a lot of taxes. >> jimmy p joplin in the wheat tournal i read late this afternoon, apple says, mr. cook says they employ 4,000 people in ireland. they, apple, employ 4,000 people

in ireland. i'll read you this joplin and they distribute dividends that aren't taxable under u.s. law joplin but will is a legitimate operation. 4,000 people is 4,000 people joplin. >> those aren't all in the tax department, right? >> the 4,000? we don't know joplin now we don't know those guys. >> ge has about 120 joplin so they can vice president 4,000 joplin the scandal here is that we have an amazingly complex tax system at a high tax rate here that incent sooizs these companies to go through extraordinary measures. the hearing should be about is how can we have a tax system which is simpler which is less horner honorous and bring capital here. i am dub young, let's scrap the tax code joplin i refer there be no corporate income tax and we would have some sort of higher exam gains or dividend taxes joplin just get rid of corporate tax joplin it's the worst tax in the world, agree. >> henry blodget, should there

be some reasonable tax penalties to repatriate the 120 billion apple has or the tech companies have it? should we help them out? >> i'm happy to say, i agree gree with you, jim, it should be simplified joplin corporations will continue to do this until it doesn't make economic sense for them to do it joplin there should be an easier way tore the fal to come back in lower tax rate is what apple is proposing t. way they say it, they say they're so rich joplin they're basically saying, look, we'll offer to pay taxes if you lower the capital gain, or, i'm sorry the tax rates so we can bring it back joplin but it should be lowered under this scenario joplin it should be simpler. >> i agree with that. what my friend john mccain doesn't understand an senator levin doesn't understand, these companies do business around the world. help me with this joplin don't they sell iphones, ipads everywhere? >> they are in a global economy. >> cash overseas. >> exactly joplin the united states is a relatively small part of apple's global business

at this point joplin they make products all over the world. they design them in california, butles where joplin so the idea that it should all accrue to the u.s. doesn't make sense joplin it really does have to be simplified. >> it's a global economy joplin maybe we can get you down with john mccain joplin now, we have more evidence. there is room for the bulls to run. . or having cut

costs. they're the result of better tax efficiency, better technological efficiency and lower interest costs because the debt rates are so low. >> the tax thing is fascinating to me. not just because i'm supply side of it. they're saying, what the studies say, doing business oversees. >> that's right. >> what we were saying. >> and apple being good at avoiding taxes. >> that's the deal. if you take out energy an technology the two wide margin i guess and maybe banks, too, if you take out energy and technology, these studies say, you are really not that far from the mean, 65 basis points, less

than 1%. your comment. >> that's right. i think more broadly, we are still above the mean, even if you look at it that way. i think what has to happen to get the economy cranking is ceos have to have the guts to start investing aggressively. it may take margins down, over the long term, that will be great for the country. >> zach, so many people have said, good, smart, hedge fund guy, people you and i know very well that these margins, essentially, corporate margins times sales revenues. that gives you your profit total. i've arc youed the sales ref fews are not so important as the earnings are. if the margins stay up, we're if god shape. with they stay up. we are only talking 65 basis points above the long run mean? >> to be slightly incendiary, i think the notion there is a mean that tells you something when basically you are talking about maybe 40 years of apple's to apple's information.

while wall street talks about these things conclusive, there is no statustician that there are patterns that must repeat. i know that flies in the face of the wall street mantras. we are always looking for the cliches. secondly, i would say companies have a long way to go still in what they have been doing, they are increasingly detached from national economies. they bear healthcare cost, education, aging, infrastructure. companies bear none of those costs and increasingly bear fewer of them. that means their ability to generate earnings, revenue and growth that in no way lines up with the earnings of a national economy. >> but it's better. they have more choices around the world. >> they have more latitude. i think we are still in, you know, at some point in the middle of this transition. >> and technology companies are global companies. >> because companies have to spend money -- >> energy companies are global. >> and companies have to spend money on technologies to cont the earnings in revenue growth,

technology will continue to a sec-of-of profound growth, itself. >> last one, henry, we got to go fast. one commodity, talking about energy, i don't understand why oil prices are $96 a barrel when gold has basically collapsed. in my humble opinion, gold is going to collapse another 4 or $500 bucks, broad commodity indexes have slowed down. where is the oil drop? it's a tax cut as you know help a lot of be help a lot of households. >> a big excellent question. i think on gold part of what's going on, people realize the big story over the last five years, with i is we were going to have rampant inflation. you have to buy gold. >> it was wrong. >> people are realizing it. >> i'm mea culpa on your website. i said i was wrong, ben bernanke was right. but now, so gold is -- i think oil should fall, too. i part of oil is inflation. we're also producing so much oil with the fracking revolution.

>> a very good revolution. it may be a sign things are more positive in the economy. >> certainly between u.s. natural gas and u.s. shale oil, you should have an immense enough supply soon enough the price of oil will come down. >> we will come right back stay with us. i'm kudlow, stay with us, please. . with the fracking revolution.

i'm kudlow, stay with us, .

let's get back to the breaking news out of oklahoma, where first responders are still searching through the rubble tonight following devastating tornado which ripped through the

region this afternoon. joining us now on the phone, oklahoma congressman tom coal whose district suffered a direct hit. miss cole, thank you very much. you are from moore. are you on the ground? what can you tell us, sir? >> well, i left there less than 24 hours ago to come here to d.c. to vote. i'm on the first plane out of here in the morning to get back. first one we could get. so i'm in d.c. now. i have been in touch with the governor's office, their chief of staff in east northrup also will local officials in moore and friends and family on the ground, the ones can you reach. so it's absolutely been my hometown for 53 years. so it's pretty devastating to watch. >> miss cole, talking about reports from the governor and so forth, we are told i heard earlier there was a death toll of two. i cannot confirm that. i want to know if you heard

anything. >> i don't want to get ahead of the official reports. the numbers will go up. they will go up pretty considerably. we are lucky we had god warning. we had the national storm laboratory. in a situation like this, we had 12-16 minutes. again, they know what they are doing. people in oklahoma take this stuff very seriously, moore has been hit four times in 15 years, '93, '09, now this. the people are good. you have an f4 or f5 rolling through, you are above ground, it doesn't matter what are you in. there will be tremendous casualties. >> there is another report that the hospital in moore was destroyed. do you know anything about that? >> i do know it was severely damaged. i don't know how, the extent of the damage. it's very, actually just south, less than a mile south on, from the plaza to our school that you are seeing. so yeah, right along i-35 right in the storm path is where it

moved. so i have gotten that report earlier today, myself. >> all right. you are on the plane tomorrow. will you be out. we have a few seconds. can you get back tomorrow? will you be able to land? >> i will be able to land. moore is about 12 minutes away. >> congressman tom caldwell, thank you very much. many thanks henry blodget, zachary carabel. you both are great. god bless all the people in moore and oklahoma city. [ musick ] i knew there were a lot of tech jobs available out there. i knew devry university would give me the skills that i needed to make one of those tech jobs mine. we teach cutting-edge engineering technology, computer information systems, networking and communications management -- the things that our students need to know in the world today. our country needs more college grads to help fill all the open technology jobs. to help meet that need, here at devry university,

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