the monster conference on saturday. i like to stay there is always a bull market somewhere. i promise to find it just for you right here on "mad money." i'm jim cramer and i will see you tomorrow [ music playing ] an unprecedented government violation of privacy? a police stay or a necessary step to keep us safe from terrorists? it turns out the u.s. government has a vast database of phone calls on millions of customers. we are going to debate both sides of this hot button issue. chris christie makes his pick for interim u.s. senator. some republicans and conservatives are furious that the appointed senator won't even be allowed to run for the senate. plus, stamford economist will brief us on tomorrow's crucial jobs report. what should we really be looking at? how will it affect the markets? and we haven't seen him much since the election. mitt romney is ready to make his

voice heard again. we will hear about everything from immigration, to the economy, to the irs scandals, plus my guest host tonight, the ceo of cypress the kudlow report begins right now. good evening, everyone, i'm larry kudlow. this is "the kudlow report" and a very special welcome to my co-host this evening the great t.j. rodgers, ceo of cypress semi conductor. thaumpl, t.j. >> the honor is mine. >> thank you, first up, the obama administration collecting massive noen phone numbers on millions of verizon customers. ayman javers now joins us with the details. good evening, ayman. >> reporter: good evening, a new one breaking just within the past couple of hours this

evening. the washington post reporting this teefg nsa has a secret program known as prism in which it cooperates with the leading service providers in the united states to gather some of the most personal information on its targets. this from the washington post reporting the nsa and fbi have been tapping into the servers of then u.s. internet companies, extracting media, epales, doubts. the program is intend -- e-mails, documents. the program is intended to collect terrorist media. the washington post is reporting that the companies participating here include microsoft, yahoo, google, facebook, pal talk, aol, skype, youtube and recent addition in 2012 to this program, youtube and apple added to that program, so larry, cnbc is reaching out to those companies to get their statements and comments on whether or not they participate in the program.

that's the washington post reporting, all of this coming on a day that revelations that verizon was sent a fisa court order, a secret intelligence court order ordering it to turn over communication, records about american phone calls and phone calls overseas. that revelation is attracting a lot of attention, also, support for the nsa up on capitol hill, including from house intelligence committee mike ronlers, who came out -- rodgers who came out late in the day who said this is a program, the verizon program in particular that has already saved american lives, take a listen. >> the reason they use this, i can tell you why this program is important, within the last few years, this program was used to stop a program, excuse me, stop a terrorist attack in the united states. we know that. it's important. >> reporter: and, guy, i am told that we have just within the past couple of seconds now got an statement from apple. let me read this to you because

i'm just literally getting it here now on my iphone. apple is saying, we have never heard of prism. we do not provide any government agency with direct access to our servers and any government agency requesting customer data must get a court order. so, larry, there will be a lot more to this. apple now saying they have never heard of this prism program. apsome one -- apple was named in the washington post story. what it said were power point slides from inside the nsa detailing in, those slides included the name of apple as well. now the company is saying it's never heard of this program. so we will have to get more detailed here on what exactly is going on, loorry, a very dramatic day here in terms of national security and intelligence gatherings on americans. >> this will be a wild story with all the names you listed. apple will deny it, whatever,ee mon -- eamon, with respect to the provider, is the insinuation

by the washington post or the description by the washington post, i have not seen the copy, are they saying that the government goes right into the e-mails, picks up the e-mails or just processes the addresss of the e-mails and where they're going? >> as described by the washington post, they're saying this is a program where nsa analysts in for the mead out here in the washington, d.c. area tap into the servers of the these companies and actually read some of the details. the washington post said in the story they were given this information by an nsa career official who expressed what they said was horror at the scale of this monitoring. the official telling the post that the nsa is capable of reading your thoughts as you type them on the screen. pretty dramatic language in that story. but it is a sweeping survials program from the description in the post. like i say, nbc news has confirmed the existence of these

programs as data collection programs. for this question of which -- >> prism. >> this changes the story. this may change my whole opinion of the story. >> it's a much more sweeping and bigger story we knew as of this morning when we were focused on this fisa court order to verizon and u.s. telephone companies for meta-data or information about phone calls. this would seem to imply the nsa would be looking at the content of these suspected terrorists or nuclear proliferators. >> that is a great change. eamon javers, if you hear anything, put your right hand to the show. i appreciate it. the question now is there a bush-obama era that will be remembered for spying the u.s. and invading our rights andee eamon javers says this is a more intensive story. maybe it's more protection for the war on terror. let's talk, we welcome to the

show for the first time ron foreignier, oo forinnier, a senior fellow, with me on the set, the. j. rodgers. ron fornier, you may have heard the latest report from eamon javers on the internet servers. this changes the story, ron, probably more in the direction of your worries. >> yeah, well, not just my worries. i think it's in the direction of the worries of the public. there is no doubt we have to do things to get our hands dirty in this war on terrorism. i think most americans understand that. for example, we have a national journal, we have a poll in a couple days that shows before these incidents, 80%, more than 80% of the public feels they are being intruded on their privacy by the government. it's not going to push that hot button. it's going to push that hot button. can you have a backlash against

a transparent responsible spying activity that cracks down on terrorism. the president has failed and his predecessor have failed to explain how far we need to go to roll back civil liberties to protect our country? and that conversation's got to start. >> peter brooks, let's have this conversation today. we will get t.j. in, in a minute. when i first read the story. verizon and other telecoms. my impression was they were involved in the record-keeping and they could trace the record-keeping to see if there are any terrorist patterns and record-keeping doesn't bother me one iothat. i pay my bills, there's third parties that see those records. now on the heels of the washington post story, which perhaps ron fornier knows also, it sounds like they're going into the content. that i think complicates it. that's going to require court orders or it's going to make this much more complex. >> well, larry, this is breaking

news. we have to be cautious about what we say. the fact of the matter is we don't know at this point the phone records are any different than e-mail records. once again, what they're trying to do with the phone records is try to make connection between people that may be suspected. no substantive information is taken. we don't foe that's the same case with the e-mails. just as you said. they may find somebody out there, a bad actor, they are following. then they go back to the court and say, hey, i want to read their e-mails the court says yes or no. so we don't know that they're violating any sort of rules. you know the phone program in my view, i'm not a lawyer, but my view that it's constitutional. it's legal. and it's necessary. i mean, we don't want to forget 9/11. you don't want to forget the boston marathon attacks and the 50 other filed plots in this country since 9-11, we're if uncharted territory here. >> he made a very god point. >> go ahead, ron. finish your point. >> he made a very good point we

don't foe what they're doing. we den know whether it's legal. we don't know how far they're going. we don't know what else they're doing that hasn't leaked out yet. that's why these last two presidents have been really irresponsible in not explaining to the pub wlak it is they are dog and why they are doing it. it creates an amazing distrust with the public. >> there are sources and methods out there. >> gentleman, hang on. >> they need to be careful. >> t.j., you know a lot about the internet and telephones what is your ink instinct about this story as it develops? >> well, my first reaction is hooray for apple. i hope hold out for our champions of liberty. i happen to be a republican. i'm ashamed of my party and what they have been doing. they go into a secret court. they making aation iss nobody knows of. there is no exkro. they start grak people's records, what's next? you go in a million houses check around so we can save somebody from terror based on somebody's comment? who knows if that's true? that is awful t. democrats are supposed to be about social

liberty. now i got the democrats acting reich republicans and taking your money. this is not good. >> ron fornier, if anything, you made this point, obama is continuing the bush policies. i lock at some of the under surveillance, the a.p. the fox news, secret subpoenas and under surveillance, i would say team obama has gone thursday than bush at left in some cases. >> you might want to make that argument t. democrats have made the counterarchitect. to me it doesn't matter. what are we doing arguing over who is worse on civil liberties. the fact of the matter is both these presidents have a terrible record and we don't know what they're doing. we need to find out what they're doing and do the responsibly and have a ambulance we all agree on. not dos phishing expeditions through our electronic underwear. >> peter, i'm for the expert on this i'm not a lawyer. this has been authorized under fisa which goes back i believe to the late 1970s. if i'm not mistaken, at least the telecom part of this was

authorized every so often by a court, by a fisa court or whatever s. that true? >> yes. every 90 days it has to be renewed. if fact is, larry, look, i'm not saying people haven't made mistakes here, the fact is that fisa which is a legal organization looks at this, congress people in congress, there have been oversight of this issue. >> no. >> i'm sure over seven years, there have been many lawyers in the government that has looked at this from a constitutional standpoint, from a liam standpoint. i'm not saying we should trample on civil liberties at all. it's a fine line when you live in the dangerous times between civil liberties and national security. >> we have to tell you, democrats in congress will tell you, folks like senator widen they have not had real oversight. it's been a show briefings. >> harry reid and feinstein said today, totally different. >> these programs are so sensitive they got to be careful about what they say. >> i don't want to be partisan

but what i read earlier in the day is that senator feinstein, along with republicans saxby chambliss both said this is okay. >> senator weiden an other investigation said the exact opposite. >> are you rights i heard weened say the -- widen say the opposite. >> when apple setz they don't know the word prism. they may not. might be the intelligence code word. so we need to learn a lot more. >> t.j. you are more a libberitarian on this point. so we put in, not necessarily for your sake, maybe for my sake, the idea that the united states in some sense is moving towards aer government involvement. it may not be a police state. it's moving in that direction. is that your fear? >> sure, it's the little inevitable in times of war. look. we took people because of their ancestry and put them in internment camps in world war ii. we took men and women whose sons died and put them in a prison camp in california. so whenever we have an attack,

civil liberties go away. that's why i would hope the democrats stand up and say we have to defend, what is liberty? what is liberty if they start searching through your personal belongs through your e-mail? what are they protecting us from the they're already doing what they're supposed to protect us? >> that e-mail part which is if you information from me i find very troubling. we'll get more news on this we'll get more information. we will cover it later in the week. ron fornier, peter brooks, thank you for coming back. appreciate it. coming up, another roller coaster day on wall street. now everybody is looking forward to tomorrow's big jobs numbers for june. actually it will be the number for may published in un. >> kelly:. plus former presidential candidate mitt romney joins me live this evening. we ask about the economy, government budget shutdown and maybe this under surveillance business, irs audits of his own top campaign donors and much more, please don't forget, free market capitalism is the beth

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that's me. why can't we get by the way 300,000 jobs a month? why can't we get 400,000 jobs a month like we did in the 1980s and 1990s? what is holding us back? here is ed lazeer. he was problem's chief economic adviser. he was. he is now at the hoover senior fellow. he wrote "the hidden jobless disaster." we continue of course with t. zwrchlt rodgers on set. ed lazear, i want 300,000 a month, 400,000 a month. seriously, we're so far behind

the trend line, somebody told me if you ran a trend line over 12 years, we are 12 million jobs below where we ought to be. >> it's not 51,000 a month. we need 300,000 a month to get back to the situation we were in in say 2006-2007. the big problem is that not only have we lost jobs, but we have been gaining jobs at a rate slightly above our rate of population growth, which means that what we're doing is that we're keeping pace with the growing labor force. we're keeping pace with the growing population, but we're not gaining back the jobs we lost. so if you are thinking about, you know, when are we going to have a recovery? when are we going to get back to where we need to be? my estimate is about 13 years. >> wow, 13 years. one more point before i get t.j. in here. what you said in your article today is yeah, okay, you can see the unemployment rate. are you saying the employment rate the employment rate. >> right. >> is the one we should watch.

that being tanked. it's still tanking? >> right. that's exactly right. so if you talk to a group of people like me, academic labor economists, most of them will tell you the thing they watch is the employment rate. what you care about is not the number not working, roots the number -- rather the number of people that are working. the difference is the people that fame out because they are discouraged either because of the nature of hiring or other factors. so the bottom line what we care about is how many people are working. now mostly -- >> how many are employed against the percentage population is that what you are saying? it's about 58% now. >> exactly. >> it will be closer to 65 or so percent? >> well, the 63.5% when it peaked if late 2006. and then it dropped down to the low 88s. it's been at about 58.5% for the last three years.

we have been level at that point. the question is, why is that? that's a completely new phenomenon, larry. this is not something that's happened in the past. of course, you heard the fed talk about they're looking for rate to drop down to 6.5% before they're going to start tightening up the money supply and looking for higher interest rates. the problem is they're looking at the wrong number. if they're looking at the unemployment rate. in the past the unemployment rate would have been a perfect predictor of what was going on on the jobs side. since 2009, that's broken down. >> let me get a real job creator if here. t.j. rodgers, why can't i get my 300,000 or 400,000 a month? >> it's straight forward, any time you transfer money from the private sector to the public sector you lose jobs. they don't say we took it by borrowing out of the private sector. what are the figures? cbo says the government jobs in the $800 billion stimulus

package you had costca between $500,000 to $400 million each to create one example. i invested a million two in a restaurant and created permanent jobs today f. they'd have taken that million from me and put it in the government they would have killed 65 jobs and created two jobs. this is what is wrong. >> we wasted that money? >> absolutely. >> pulled it out of the private sector, threw it away. >> what a surprise, political pork isn't as efficient as ent (niers. >> you heard t.j., i got to get out. we spent sought much time on the government tapping. are we taking the over or the number? i'm not asking you for a number, the over or the under? >> well, i'm going to probably go with the under, be you the one thing i want to mention is that remember there is so much error in that monthly figure you shouldn't get too excited about it one way or the other. >> i promise not too.

>> etd lasear, i appreciate it. the man that plays spock on the irs video, he gets grilled on capitol hill. new information shows clearly it was the irs in washington, not cincinnati that called the shots targeting tea party and other conservative groups. we're going to park city, utah, to get mitt romney's take on the irs scandals. how would he have handled it? we will talk to romney a little later in the program. .

another day of hearings on capitol hill about the irs. what we learn today? well, cnbc has that story. kayla. >> good evening, lar risks if the day ends in y, we are getting more on this scandal. darryl issa grilled ferris fink. you may know fink better as spock from this irs training video. fink was then asked to watch the video and called it embarrassing. the irs misused money spending it on luxury hotel rooms and training videos. fink said he didn't have accurate records but said the spending could be as high as $5 million. larry, i know you have been asking how high up does the irs targeting scandal go? we have a new name, it's carter hall. the "wall street journal" obtaining interviews by congressional investigators with irs employees in cincinnati. one of those employees said officials at the irs in

washington helped direct the probe of tea party groups and carter hall even sent questions to be asked of tea party groups. so if this is accurate it would debunk the original story by lois lerner that this targeting was done by a few rogue agents in cincinnati. larry, it looks like this scandal is heading to washington. all signs are pointing there as of today, certainly an interesting development. >> and it's going to grow. t.j., you are looking at this on the west coast, what do you see? >> i see the government doing bad stuff again. i see people scrambling for plausible deniably. the oliver north quote the government is intruding on the rights. with are the champions of freedom in washington? where is the democratic paert party? >> as kayla reported you have a senior lawyer at the irs in washington. senior lawyers report to chiefs, chief counsels, okay. i will not name names tonight. i will let that sit a while.

this thing is not over. we have not gone up the food kane yet. >> one of the interviews reviewed by the "wall street journal" in this report this morning was quoting a real e relatively junior irs employee involved in this targeting in cincinnati and she said i wouldn't have had done any of this had i not had the authorization of someone at a higher level. this sort of thing doesn't happen unless you get that signature. >> thank you ever so much for the update. up next on "kudlow," for the first time in 30 years, new jersey had a republican senator. only a couple months, actually, why did governor chris christie insist on a convoluted election process? we will go live to park city, utah. we will be joined by republican nominee mitt romney all on "the kudlow report." we're coming right back.

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. >> welcome back to "the kudlow report." coming up in this half hour, just what went wrong in the 2012 campaign? and might there be a silver lining to the irs targeting scandal? we will ask mitt romney when he joins us live from park city, utah, for a wide ranging

interview in just a little bit. meanwhile, new jersey has a new republican senator for the first time since i don't know the revolutionary war. you heard that right, new jersey now has a republican senator, at least four months, something like that. i can't hardly county. republican governor chris christie appointed attorney general jeff chiesa to fill the senate of frank lautenberg on monday. contributor robert costa of the national review, mr. t.j. roggers, ceo of cypress semi conductor. who is this guy? >> long time jeff chiesa he used to be a u.s. attorney with christie earlier in this decade. he comes in as a christie allie. he will only be there until october. he says he's a conservative republican. we have to wait to see. >> i did see that. why did governor christie insure he not go, in he, his appointed

guy, not go into the primary and not run for the senate? >> this is the real issue right now in the garden state. republicans are furious because they have not won a senate election in new jersey since 1972. the lost republican senator was nick brady in 1982. he was appointed. christie has a special election in october t. person who runs is not going to be on the ballot with him in november. makes it tough for a republican to win. it's a tough two-month primary period, no big name republican wants to run in this two month primary, it will be very tough to go in. >> but a tea party guy named steve lonergan. he's a serious guy, i know him. >> keep an eye on steve lonergan, he's won for governor twice. he lost both races. he's a tea party guy, ran americans for tea party new jersey. definitely has a shot in the race. >> can governor kain's son, is he going to run? tom kain, junior, will not run.

joe crillos won't run. i expect lonergan to be the nominee or close to the nominee. here's the story, you have to file by monday. if you don't have a thousand signatures, you can't run in the primary. >> let's look at the other side real fast, cory booker is the odds on favorite. on the other hand, i know frank cologne. i know he has a couple 3 million dollars, do we write him off? >> don't write him off. he has the new jersey democratic machine, $3 million in the bank. booker is a media star. he does not have this thing in the bank at all. she still has to run a tough race. >> i am probably dreaming here. i'm just saying it's not out of the question, you have this august primary and you have an october 16th election. lonergan the tea party guy could come out of the august primary. everyone in the state will know his name by then and kind of roll with a lot of momentum into october, which is almost around

the corner. >> you know why that may work is if you have a singular election in october. one federal election, a one off schedule, lonergan can run instead of working with all the other state candidates in november. >> then chris christie will look like a genius, look at this i helped get a conservative tea party guy. robert costa as always, many, many thanks for that wrap-up. up next with the u.s. drowning and runaway government debt touching $17 trillion, what is the real impact on business and the economy? t.j. will share his perspective next up. still to come, we go to park city, utah, we will be po joined by mitt romney. we will talk irs and the obama economy and what went wrong in the 2012 election bid. the cover for it, coming right back with romney. hey kevin...still eating chalk for heartburn?

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made possible by honda. and overborrowing and expanding its size and scope? is that the biggest economic problem we face? is that the problem with this anemic and subpar recovery? let's talk with our co-host, t.j. rodgers, founder and ceo of

cypress semi conductor. you were talking about the employment numbers. i want to go large here. i know this is one of your key things. what would it take for america to get back to a reasonable government size and grow the private economy? >> you got to shrink the government and it's not talking about the deficit as milton freelandman once told me is not what it's about. it's talking about spending. whenever you spend a dollar through the go. you create a job. not enough jobss. 500,000 to 204 million for jobs created. the private sector, if you look at small business in the u.s. 30,000 created a job. in that little restaurant, in a kip case, i run a company in silicon valley. every employee comes with fab bricks. a big plant. even that, we created 1

skirkt,000 jobs. the minute you start extracting money from the top 1%. that's one of the big themes, you put it in the government, you will destroy jobs and you will create fewer jobs in the public sector. even the european social democracys are getting it. for example, the big region now is green jobs. >> right. >> okay. well, there is a study in italy for every green job they created they lost 2.2 jobs in the private sector. >> i love that. >> no, excuse me. >> 4 jobs. >> 4.8. >> love that. >> italy and spain set down their greens jobs stuff, they realized they were doing more damage than helping in the public sector. >> is it, therefore, okay, from your perspective, we spend all this money, we, the government the obama administration they spent almost a trillion dollars of stimulus money at the top. did that, in your view, block the kind of recovery we should have had from a deep recession spending that money and creating an atmosphere and environment that more is come snk is that

why business is holding back? >> uncertainty is something that causes businessmen to be cautious. you know, when i hire somebody in some place, i pour concrete, i here them. i pay for their kids' teeth to be fixed in their mind for a decade. it's almost like committing to a family. you can't do that if you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. you will get some new idea from washington, new tax, some change that will undermine the foundation of your business plan. >> what's obamacare do to if cypress semi conductor and other like businesses? >> i don't know. we're working that out in california right now. we have been doing well, we like every other company in california do well at taking care of our employees for health care. i think what i'm worried about is they're going to start getting taxed because they have so-called cadillac healthcare now the health care we give them, they'll be taxed on it. >> that's exactly right. will be a big problem. all right. t.j. rodgers, he will be b.c. the. up next, we will welcome former

presidential nominee mitt romney. he is live for us this evening from beautiful park city, utyou utah, "the kudlow report" coming back to speak to mr. romney. feel it! feel it! feel it! nice work! .

former gop presidential nominee is wait wading back into the political waters today, kicking off a conference in park city, utah, fee curing leading republican, including chris

christie, paul ryan and rand paul, also some democrats like former obama adviser david axelrod and los angeles mayor antonio villa ga rosa if i have that right. mitt romney, t.j. rodgers is still with us. governor, i just want to begin right off the top with some fuse out of washington, d.c. i want you to listen, house speaker john boehner pushing back today against president obama's threat to vito any spending bills that aren't a part of a broader budget deal. please take a listen, sir. >> in short, the president said, higher taxes and higher spending is going to shut down the government. i think that's reckless. listen, there is no one that wants to make progress on the deficits more than i do. i have been working on it for years now. i know how hard it is. that's why the idea of shutting down the government, if we can't find a deal is so irresponsible.

>> governor romney, this is interesting. i guess the charm offensive is over, because yesterday, obama said, basically, if you don't do it my way, that is to say, eliminate the spending cut sequester and raise taxes on the upper end earners, again, if you don't do it my way, i will vito every spending bit. how do you read this? >> well, that's not the productive key to leadership, of course. i'm not the guy if favor of the ultimatums on either side of the aisle. sometimes have you people on the right saying they will shut downen the government or do something draconian, on this side the president threatening he will do the same kind of thing. look, we got to get beyond that. we have some real opportunities as a nation. at the same time we have a lot of people out of work, work is stack nating, schools aren't fixed. we look to washington, people

say can't we learn to work together and find common ground? i shake my head as i see what's coming out of washington and wish it were possible for us to see the kind of leadership that frankly we see in homes, in churches, we see in state itself and cities across the country. it's time for something to really get going there. >> would you say to speaker boehner, maybe you talk to him, i don't know if you seen him recently, to defend the spending cuts, to defend the sequester? >> well, look, the reality is that there has been a process that's been pursued that has whittled away at some of the spending excesses, but president obama and just like speaker boehner knows that we're spending too much money and that we can't keep on spending massively more than we take in, that we're on a very dangerous road, that ultimately we have to cut book on some spending and hopefully in places where there is waste and abecause, but we got to cut back on spending. the sequester was not the ideal way of doing that.

you pay recall during the debates in the campaign, i said, look this sequester is a real problem. the defense department is responsible for 20% of federal spending but 50% of the cuts are coming there in a world which is still a dangerous place. so the sequester is not the right way to go about it. gosh, we had hoped to see a gland bargain with the president leading on a real effort to put in place the kind of long-term spending restraint that would get us back to balance. >> i want to ask one question about the campaign. i want to look forward, not backward. during the campaign, you were very pes mick about -- pessimistic about the state of the economy and spending as you discussed and deficits and debt. some people say, governor, you were too pessimistic. on the other hand, in terms of a message that president obama was the optimist and that that is one reason why he won, that the optimist always beats the pessimist. how do you plead to that charge that you were too pessimistic?

>> well, i think for people that are out of work, things are pretty tough t. reamity is we -- thei reality is we r still have unemployment. for those people doing well, people at the high end that have a lot of money in the stockmarket, they have big smiles, of course, that is being financed by the fed printing money the stock prices continue to rise, in part, because of a virtual 0 interest rates t. low cost of debt has meant a that people are rushing their money into stocks. look, it's an artificial boost. i'm happy to see things getting a little better and things will continue to get better, but the president's policies are not helping. and for those people that are out of work, for those people that are taking jobs that are well beneath the pay they were used to, those people are having hard times. i'm not going to forget them. i'm not going to ig for them. >> you blasted bernanke on a number of occasion, you and i were both wrong the inflation

never happened, i have given him a me culpa. do you think bernanke just the easy money gave us enough recovery to elect obama? >> well, there's no question but that the easy money and effectively holding interest rates down artificially with the fed buying what three-quarters of the treasuries that are being put out by the government, in that kind of setting, you are creating boost in the stockmarket and creating some consumer confidence, which helps the economy, but, ultimately, there is a price to pay. you can't keep outspending massively more than you take in. borrowing, we have gone from 10 trillion to $16 trillion of debt. you can't do that forever. when interest rates return to normal levels. they l. they won't stay at 0 forever. when they return, we'll be spending $750 billion a year on interest. now, that's more than we spend

on national defense. that's the price we're going to pay for the large estimates coming from the fed in financing these massive deficits. look, markets work. governments can't overcome the power of markets and what we're seeing with mr. bernanke and with others is an effort to try and ignore the fact that we just can't keep on spending massively more than we take in. >> let me switch gears. i want to talk object this irs scandal. there is an unconfirmed story that is developing among the major news networks, sir, five of your top fundraisers were audited during the campaign, two and three times. and that they had never been audited before. do you think the irs was targeting you and your top backers? ed. >> well, we know the irs was targeting groups that were conservative groups. we'll learn more about whether people who were supporting me were being targeted. i don't have the facts on that

yet. i'm sure as time goes on, we'll learn more. i think there is no question the american people rightly believe their government has broken trust with them. we have all given all of our most sensitive information to the irs. what assets we have, how much money we've made. we've given them those pieces of information with the clear contract that they're going to keep that private and not politicize it. and what we found out is that the irs has politicized, has used politics as one of the purposes of their great power. >> wouldn't that have come from -- >> this is something that is very disturbing to us. >> wouldn't that have come from the white house at the end of the day? is this food chain going to lead us to the white house and the oval office in your view right now? >> i don't know where it's going to lead, but peggy nolan and her op ed in the "wall street journal" said, look, this there has to be a call from the white house when the president says these people are people i'm targeting, why, other people can get the signal and can pursue

those individuals if the signal is coming that way. look, i just think we're seeing a setting where government has been used to punish people that government doesn't like. the irs has done that. this can't go on. we have got to not just look at the individuals who environmented our trust, but we've got to change the structure of government to prevent this from happening in the future. >> a couple other points, governor, we appreciate your time as always, a lot of scuttlebuttt, you remember when christie embraced obama over the super hurricane the superstorm sandy. a lot of people said it damaged your chances of becoming president. i believe governor christie is out there with you in utah right now. that's the advertisement. here's my question, do you hold it against christie he did what he did, if christie runs for presidency, as many believe he will, will you back him in 2016? >> i'll be backing the

republican nominee for president. if that's chris christie, i will be backing him. i have no ill will for chris christie. he helped me during my campaign immeasurably, got money, got endorsements, went out on the trail. he did what he thought was best for the people of new jersey. that's why he is so popular there. i have no problem with chris t. governor will welcome in the president. let not worriant. that we have in our party a number of differing views a about the direction the country aught ought to take. we will all get a chance to hear from them and choose those views we feel are the most compelling. i have to tell you, larry, i'm optimistic about the prospects of a republican b.c. the elected in 2016, i think the american people know what they have seen can't go on forever. >> i know it's early in the game, rand paul who i think is out there, you got marco rubio, jeb bush, cot walker, who have i left out? senator ted cruz, any one of them could be the candidate.

you do have any objections to any of them? >> well, i haven't gotten any objections at this point. i'm sure there will be some i'm more inclined to towards others and so we'll see as time goes on. i'll be fighting for the things i believe in, hopefully, find people that have shoes those same views becoming the nominee of our party. but i can tell you that my party and the people you described are individuals who are concerned about our futd, want to make sure we help the poor in the country, we build a stronger middle class, fix our schools, those are the things we care about. that's why i'm a republican. >> let me say, we have a wee bit of time left. on immigration, do you support the senator rubio bill the so-called gang of eight bill in the senate which kind of looks like it will die a slow death in the house. first question, do you support the immigration reform bill? >> well, i support the plan that i describe during my campaign, what's come from the gang of eight is not exactly the same. i applaud the fact that they're working on something. i'd like to see the house pass their own legislation.

we have got the fix our immigration system. we've got to get more skilled workers into this country legally. we got to fix the illegal immigration system and we got to deal with the 11 million here illegally. this can't go on, being kicked down the road and every four years becoming a campaign issue which keeps hispanic voters from voting for republicans. >> what just last, very last question, when you talked about self deportation or volunteer deportation, do you think that that really hurt, it's got to be yes or no, hispanic vote and crossed over into the asian immigration vote, too? do you think it hurt both of those votes? >> well, it probably did. of course, as you know, what i was referring to i wasn't saying, i say we shouldn't have government deportation, mass deportations rounding up people throwing them out of the country. instead, people should be able to make their own voluntary choice. but that was, if you will, mischaracterized, obviously, be i the open six campaign. that's the nature of campaigns, to sound somehow sinister.

it wasn't as all. it was saying don't deport people on a massive basis through government. let people make their own choice. >> i hear you. we appreciate it very much, really do. my co-host t.j. rodgers thank you so much for being so patient with us. tomorrow night, we will break down the jobs report. we have john sylvia, the chief economist at wells fargo. i'm larry kudlow, more free market economics tomorrow night. [ lorenzo ] i'm lorenzo.

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>> narrator: in this episode of "american greed" the fugitives... international mutual fund manager eric bartoli lands in the small town of doylestown, ohio, selling a dream. >> the message was very clear. "i'm successful, i'm happy, i know how to make money." >> narrator: but his promise of a mutual fund with never-ending positive returns is just his latest lie. >> i would doubt that eric bartoli made an honest dollar in his adult life. he's probably gone from scam to scam to scam. >> narrator: bartoli allegedly steals more than $65 million from investors throughout the western hemisphere. >> you're looking them in the eye and saying, "your life savings have been stolen." >> narrator: and when it all comes crashing down, this accused con man t