it is 11:00 a.m. eastern. i'm kayla tausche. our top story is two hostage situations ongoing in paris just days after gunmen attacked a

satirical magazine leaving 12 dead. one hostage, involves two brothers suspected in that attack. the other situation involves unknown number of hostages at the kosher grocery store in eastern paris. with more let's get to michelle. >> it appears as though something is unfolding at the first hostage situation you mentioned. northeast of paris about 45 minutes. near charles de gaulle airport. these are live pictures. we heard loud noises on the feed. they could be gunshots, flash bangs but definitely explosions heard at this print shop. we also saw smoke. so we're not quite sure what is happening. so more loud noises we just heard this live. let's listen for one secondicious see whsecond.

let let's see what we hear. this is a situation where two suspects, two brothers in their early 30s, the kouachi brothers who are believed to be the sus -- there is definitely something unfolding here. it is just very difficult to see. what you see there are -- it is a very large industrial complex with many 18 wheelers parked around it. and then there is a small print shop, almost a house on the other side. the cameras are on the far side. so it's very difficult to see what's going on there but we can see smoke coming from beyond it where we believe the gunmen are holed up with at least one hostage. this is believed to be the location of the two kouachi brothers who were involved in the shooting two days ago at the satirical magazine charlie hebdo. on the run for two days. a massive man hunt and earlier

today hundreds of officers surrounded this town. no one in or out. told everyone to stay inside. and this has been ongoing for nine or ten hours at this point. police officers surrounding this industrial unit which appears to be a warehouse or distribution center. and ongoing at the same time there is also another hostage situation going on in eastern paris at a supermarket that specializes in the kosher foot. the individual who has taken hostages in that supermarket has demanded that the individuals in the situation you see here be released unharmed hr else he is going to kill some of those hostages. those are the dramatic situations that have been been playing out for now hours here in france. as the country seems almost under siege as a result. it's hard to know what those noises are from here, obviously.

so guys we're going to keep monitoring this. it's been a dramatic series of events throughout the morning, as things have started to happen. and it's been unclear whether or not they are connected. when the supermarkets events first started, we didn't know if it was a copy cat. then clearly drip by drip we've gotten pieces of information that suggested all of these incidents so far today are connected. there are now four suspects. we were originally talking about two. the two individuals a in the hostzage situation. now there are two other individuals that police have put out what call a bolo, a be on the lookout for. a woman and a man connected to these two individuals and also connected to a female police officer shot dead yesterday in paris as well. and it's believed they are connected to the supermarket situation. >> i understand michelle and you will know more about this than i

do. clearly you are very close to charles de gaulle, one of the main paris airports. >> reporter: yes. >> there were earlier reports or fears these guys may have got hold of some sort of mortar equipment. i don't know where we ran with that during the course of the morning. how close to the runway are we here? there were flight interruptions were there. >> they did close down two runways for arrivals because they said they did not want to interfere with things going on there. but it's my understanding it was about 5 miles away. it's unclear whether that proximity was something that led to fears about plans or not. the entire airport is not shut down. just two arrival runways. is if you are suggesting they were concerned about the rocket fire i think they would have shut down the whole airport at this point. and we don't have indication of that. >> and you have done a lot of

reporting on just the masses of security france has deployed to this situation. what is the count right now as we now have two situations? >> i would assume we're up to the thousands for sure. when we saw the video of what happens happening in paris, clearly they were deploying hundreds of people to the situation with the supermarket. and we could see streets blocked off, major streets blocked off in eastern paris. if you are familiar with the landscape of paris, the geography, the supermarket is just beyond that large perimeter road that surrounds the city. and then we know that there were hundreds that had descended on this town as well. and the video shows just to keep it kor docordoned offer from ev else, from the press. and from the number of people we had shown you originally on the ground the numbers are very large. swat team, special operations teams, antiterrorist teams in

effort to capture these individuals. >> thanks michelle. for more on what's happening inside paris or in france,lest get to cnbc's hadley gamble. what is going on where you are on the ground? >> reporter: we're about 30 miles from the center of paris. we're about 5 minutes from charles de gaulle airport. you can see the village where all this is taking place down the road behind me. we saw several ambulances moving towards the air. and this is a school that swa s.w.a.t. teams have been brought no to evacuate. and waiting for this terrific situation to come to an end. we understand these two kouachi brothers have been holed up for most of the afternoon in this business.

french authorities have said they are not going to go in unless the hostages refuse to negotiate completely. unless the negotiations completely break down they have no intention of goingen in. also we understand these two brothers are linked to the shooter at the grocery store in paris earlier today. a grocery store was held up by heavily armed gunmen. reportedly there are hostages there. we have no detail yet on the numbers of the hostages. again the french authorities saying these three gunmen are linked. an update on the shooting with e saw yesterday. two photographs released of the possible gunmen in those situations as well. those heavily armed and dangerous. michelle. >> yeah we're hearing from nbc's news's richard engel nooesh nearby you. he's saying he just heard two

explosions from the direction of the industrial area. and there was gunfire. he is calling it gunfire. he could know. just unclear how many shots -- >> okay. >> here is coming in. police going to capture the two brothers. believed to be storming the building. we're hearing gunfire at the printing building. two ambulances just raced past him as well. that is coming from tweets he's putting out at the moment. so looks like they are making some attempt to get to these two brothers who are holed up in that printing sop. >> michelle and hadley for now. thanks for adding so much value from both your insights as well as our nbc colleagues on the ground in france. let's bring back former cia field commander.

garyis eat good to see you again. >> pleasure to be here. >> our colleagues reporting police had attempted or their ideal was to get these hostages alive. now that we have heard explosions, what do you make of the situation on the ground? >> well if you heard reporting of explosions and shooting, they either used breeching technol y technology, blasting to get through a door or wall and possibly flash bangs before the engagement if there was gunfire. the french unit that would be doing this would be gig 9. that is the intervention group. they are most famous for having successfully executed the rescue of a plane load of passengers in 1994 from a tarmac in france. these guys are very very good. a commander in that thing went toe to toe from the door of the plane. fighting four terrorists in the

cockpit. they all died and he was shot six times and shot. they are quite, quite capable. >> what i was watching as i continue to watch this unfold is what effect it it would have. the fact that we're getting towards night fall in france right now. 5:10 p.m. as i belief. as they are balance wlg to go in as it is a hostage situation with the fact that night is falling and that has han effect on the ability to do the operation. how do you expect that to play out not just here but a also at the kosher grocery store closer to central paris. >> nightfall favors the counterterrorism team. they will have the night vision. and if they turned the power off the terrorist will be in dark. darkness favors the forces the civilization here. gig 9. >> and the fact there are two

situations unfolding right know and the suspects appear to be communicating with each other, at least aware of what is going on with the hostages and the suspects in paris, saying that they will act if the other suspects are endangered. how do you balance two ongoing situations where one outcome may or may not effect the other? >> what the securities forces are going to try to do at both locationings is make sure they have scrambled the cell phone and cut any internet, try to block any technology or, you know, potential for communication or the collection of information over the internet. anything they can do, they are going to try to block this. harder to block radio, if someone has a simple radio that might be a hard thick. but they are going to try to do those that separate those. but if -- as you have reported the individuals holding hostages at the kosher grocery or delicatessen learns they may

act. so you may have an assault, simultaneous assault at two locations. >> they would though from -- i mean potentially there is a conflict within the organization here. because in what you are saying, you have set the bar very high that the other people in the kosher restaurant on the other side of the paris must know nothing of what we can see and the rest of the world can see and hear now. how. >> you try to block that. >> i understand that. but how can those security forces ensure that is the case? that is a very high bar in an active situation, sir, isn't it? >> they can't. but let me just say this. counterterrorist forces, assault forces are intervene in two occasions. when they believe the hostage is at risk or if there is an armed break out. but those police and those counterterrorism forces at the kosher grocery store also will be aware of the assault there and they would be ready to go. >> we now are hearing one of

these suspects may have received training from al qaeda in yemen. what type of intelligence can be obtained about what may have happened in yemen? who may have been with this suspect and who type of training he may have received? >> clearly we recognize many of these militants that have been trained or have fought in these zone, whether it will yemen or iraq and syria. they go through terrorist training courses and learn about improvised explosives and small weapons fire. the handling of weapons. they go through ideological training. some of these people are capable. these individuals have made a lot of mistakes though. they are tired. the as couple of days here. >> forgive me for interrupting you we have what we believe to be live pictures from the delk tesen. it looked as if we had some movement there. are you air ware. here we go. are we back again. it looks like -- it would appear that the police are moving --

>> we know there were four explosions heard at this site guys. reuters is reporting four explosions heard at the site. so once again as we see these individuals move into that super market in eastern paris, reuters is reporting four explosions were heard in eastern paris as well. so it could be that we have simultaneous attempts here to end both of these situations as nightfalls. >> it is worth pointing out michelle as well that there are clearly civilians being moved away from the situation. >> and being put in an ambulance it looks like. yeah. >> this late in the siege would suggest that you had already cleared the bystanders i would have thought but i'm just

speaking at the top of my head. >> it would appear we're looking a the hostages coming out of the supermarket at this point. >> let's return to our guest. i'm not sure if you are ache able to see the pictures here but it would appear almost a simultaneous action on both sides. if indeed they have moved in on the kosher store. >> that's what i thought a few minutes ago, that they would have do that. >> gunfire and new explosions heard at the site of the hostage taken in eastern paris. that would be on the left-hand side of the screen, that is the eastern paris location of the supermarket. and once again reuters reporting. there is definitely activity there. gunfire and new explosions heard at that site in the left-hand side soft the screen that you see. >> a lot of commotion. we have seen head lines there are forces at the other hostage site, at the print shop. do you have any news on what might be happening

simultaneously there as it appears we do not have steady pictures come in from northeast of paris. >> we don't see any activity at that point because we have seen a lot -- all of the feeds have switched now to the supermarket location at this point. >> can i just point out what's happening here with the pictures. this may be totally by chance but the fact we were able to access internationally the pictures on the kosher store suddenly as there was movement or after some movement may not be a coincidence. you may find the state broadcasters are cutting lines abroad when it is necessary for the security situation on the ground. >> that is typical. a lot of the feed services do that. they will take local television live and feed it down the screen we have and feed it right into the news room. that is possible. we may have just been taking live pictures from local television within france.

>> i believe we still have gary bernstein with us as well. now that we have news of multiple explosions but we do see much activity this late in the rescue attempt. would you still believe that these would be diversionary explosions of sorts? >> no i suspect if you have had explosions of and bursts of gunfire i would strongly expect they have gone in. because once you start this, the terrorists are going to try to kill those hostages quickly. once you begin the move you can't all the way through. >> we need to go back to hadley gamble on the ground near the second hostage site in northeastern france. what do you know? >> reporter: we've seen multiple ambulances with sirens blaring headed down the road. just a few kilometers behind me is the village where the two brothers are holed up. multiple police cars and helicopters circling.

so it looks like behavior the police are doing is underway. we're hearing a stream of ambulances. their lights blaring on the way down the highway. it looks like they are turning off here towards the village where this hostage situation is taking place. we've seen multiple helicopters flying over head. if you can hear behind me the multiple ambulances looks like about 20 of them on their way down a major highway through this village behind me. we've also -- >> i think -- hadley -- >> streaming behind me as well. >> i think we should point out that hadley is at an industrial state outside paris and she is moving the move in potentially on a commercial printing press. what we see now on our screens are the situation much closer to paris in a suburb, where you

have a kosher establishment that had also had a hostage siege situation. and this establishment that you see now had said they would maintain that hostage situation really in respect of the what was happening at the industrial estate. and they should not move in on the terrorists, the two suspected brothers for peer of what would here. if you are joining us it it would appear we've had movement on both situationingses. >> as we had been discussing the potential for a simultaneous move by french forces on the ground on these two sites. certainly seems that that is what has taken place. michelle caruso cabrera, what news do you have? >> we have a producer listen together feed in french. we're going break in. not confirmed, but the associated press is reporting that the brothers in the is scene on the right, that the brothers have been killed. once again that is not confirmed

by nbc news. but afp, the agency french press is reporting that the two brothers have been killed. not the ap. i misspoke. i afp, agency french press. unconfirmed. afp is also tweeting the same thing that the two suspects have been killed and a hostage has been released in the situation you see on the right-hand side of the screen where the two brothers are holed up northeast of paris about 45 minutes away. we are waiting to see if anyone else confirms that. but once again that is according to agency french press. on the left-hand side we have a producer speaks french and listening to the feed and can hear that at least five ambulances brought in, they are expecting more people to be brought out. anything else we can add to this? five ambulances. they have seen somebody taken out who appears at least injured

at this point. and we're waiting for more details and what is the situation with the suspect or injuries there. once again agency french press reporting about the situation with the two brothers northeast of the france that the two brothers have been killed during this attempt to end the siege by the police. >> and yet importantly as you mentioned michelle a hostage also released. do we have any idea of the numbers of people, the magnitude of what is going on on the left of the screen. how many hostages were taken in that kosher supermarket michelle? can you give us an idea of the scale? there is an awful lot of police or security personnel in that screen now. >> that number has been unclear from the start. five people, seven people, eventually reuters would just continuously say serl. knew there was more than one and also the threat from at least the one individual in the supermarket that hostages would

be killed if the other two brothers were harmed. so we knew it was at least more than one. and it would make sense in a supermarket, the busy supermarket, the day of the sabbath people are going shopping for this. so it would make sense there would be more than that. we now now the situation that we're showing right now we were pretty certain there was on one hostable in that situation in the industrial town where the two brothers were. >> michelle we appreciate you bringing us the details as the situation develops very quickly on the ground in france. gary bernstein is still with us. now that we are getting some unconfirmed reports from agency france pres press that the two suspects have been killed by what appeared to be simultaneous moves by french forces on each of those sites, your reaction to that news. >> well of course, god bless the french for moving and the security forces. based on the reporting it looks like they have at least saved

the one hostage at the one location. i hope they have saved a you will the hostages. gign has a great record and professional record of this. let's hope they were able to contain this and don't have any additional attacks in the coming days. >> gary, this is the second, obviously, time in recent weeks that we've seen an urban attack using guns in a city center. give us some context. >> jon, sorry we have a reporter on the newsline from afp whose reporting that the two brothers have been killed. we want to bring them into the question. correspondent on the scene there. what are you seeing from where you stand right now. >> i'm in paris right. near the hold up in paris and the police are cordoned off a large section of the place. i can't see much. but 10 to 15 minutes ago we had

three loud bangs and people started shouting and running away and more gunfire and more bangs and silent since then. some bursts of the gunfire and that is it. i have no idea what the hostage situation is i have to say and i don't know either whether the hostage taker is dead alive or been taken. >> we're all clearly scrambling around for the information as we can bring it in. according to the feeds at least 10 people were seen exiting the building, we should be clear talking about the seen scenen o the left. a second assault team apparently followed the first into the kosher supermarket. the raid team were shouting get down, get down. clearly some wounding and according to reports shouting they have him. and stretchers were then brought out at the scene and then firing. basically there was a cease fire to what was going on. i mean, what can you actually see now? what do you see now as you look towards that supermarket?

>> well as i said it's cordoned and early on we were actually on a bridge overlooking the highway around paris so we could see the place clearly. they pushed us back and again. and we can't actually see the place at all. we're korcordon bed off so we c hear it but ke can't see it. i think the police have done that deliberately to avoid any further casualties. but the mood here from come from slight worry but really everyone is very calm now. and just burst into panic when they had the gunshots. >> you are breaking up a bit. thank you for that. let's goat michelle caruso cabrera with more details. >> reporter: dow jones, the associated press and limon newspaper all three report the

kouachi brothers are dead and the hosage has been rescued. multiple sources reporting that. and the hostage held by the brothers had been freed. the situation on the right there. there you see the kouachi brother, 30 and 32. and nbc news reporters spoke with a film maker yesterday who spoke with one of the brothers years ago and said he had been radicalized as young man about ten years ago. the kouachi quarters are both dead according to multiple news reports and the hostage has been freed. >> thanks michelle. and these are the two suspects in the charlie hebdo attackings from a while ago. also in the print shop reported dead. >> we still have the correspondent from agency france press who is near the second

site that was also the scene of a hostage situation that has been unfolding this morning. bring us up to speed with what's been going on in the recent moments as we were going through the news of the result of the siege just northeast of paris. mary ann are you -- i believe we're having problems with mary ann's audio. but michelle? >> reporter: i haven't got more for you at this point. it's just that we know that the suspects in the charlie hebdo massacre have been killed and hostage freed and we're waiting for more information on the kosher supermarket. we've seen people coming outlet as simon was talking about earlier and some individuals taken away. but certainly it is a little bit of chaos there at this point as we're waiting to get clarity. >> the speculation at this stage michelle.

but you have to ask yourself if the two brothers have been killed and one hostage released. >> reporter: hi, sorry i guess the connection is not great hey sh. >> it ended in that commercial printing process, the degree to which they had backup from that broader organization. ma mary ann you are back with us. watching the scene on the left with the downtown paris the breaking on the siege of the supermarket. what can you see. >> reporter: well again i can't actually see the supermarket. but there is a long avenue leading into towards the supermarket. and i can see lots of ambulances and police. and people around are kind of excitingly speculating about what's going on. but unfortunately i'm afraid i can't give you much more than that. >> what is the general mood of the nation? clearly this has gone on for more than two days. i imagine it is wall to wall

coverage. what is the general mood of people? what is the attitude or mix of attitude that is you picks up on? >> reporter: the general mood was one of real unity. and i'm half french and people are often criticized for being disunited or unhappy this time of around but people have gathered and gone out in unity. and there have been the antimuslim voices. and of course today because it's been happening in paris and just northeast people have become much more somber but still calm. no sort of panic. >> yes, i just want to mention actually given the time that the paris boss is now shutting up with the rest of europe. in fact it's been a very negative day for paris and pluch of the euro zone as well. the pairs market down 2.3% at the close.

not really in response we assume to what you are seeing on your screen here. more to where we're going with the european central bank and the banking sector in particular. >> le monde is reporting a situation on the left the supermarket, the hostage taker at the siege is dead. that is reported by newspaper le monde. we've just lost signal as you can see. but if we see those reports confirmed it is going look like three out of the four suspects that police were looking for are dead at this point. so we're back to the situation in the northeast. now we're back to paris. we is have a lot of feeds coming in but once again the hostage taker at the coach herb supermarket now dead. >> and this just in. president obama was updated this morning before he left the white house during his daily briefing. this is a topic according to the deputy press sect aretary of expansive discussion in the

white house. the president had been kept up to date. he's reassuring top officials have been in touch with their french counterparts minute by minute. and the president signed a book of the condolence yesterday. the hos hostage taker within the supermarket is dead. that means three fatalities in two storming of two siege situations. let's bring in someone with the fbi. we appeared to have had the gig nine the terrorist wing moving in. all three hostage takers to our knowledge have died. what more can you tell us? >> well unfortunately this was always the way it was going to end. we knew -- i'm sure they had profiled what they were dealing with here. these weren't just average criminals.

they weren't taking hostages to try to negotiate anything. they were always going to martyr themselves. so i think it was ordained from the very beginning of this conflict. >> so chris you don't believe that there was a situation possibly where the g 1 gn could have gotten the hostages live is and as you say that they were prepared in this situation to be martyrs. >> absolutely. it was just a question of when. in fact one of the larger surprises for me was the fact they didn't martyr themselves at the scene yesterday. >> forgive me sir. you know far more than i do. but let me push back a little bit. if they wanted to martyr themselves, why were they stealing a car and trying to get out of paris or to an outskirt of paris neared the runway for charles de gaulle? why were they in a commercial printing press if that was the aim rather than simply being very scared? why not go to a more prominent

position that. would seem to fly in the face of the analysis you are bringing to the able and the analysis it is a very sophisticated terrorist attack when many people in france believe it is not. >> these particular terrorists have value to the organization. they are home grown from the standpoint of they grew up in france, speak the language and have travel documents so they have value to the terrorist organization they are working with. but they are jihadists. and in the end it will always be about martyrdom. so there they are part of the more sophisticated organization or lone wolf terrorist it's always about martyrdom in the end. >> how do you know they are jihadis jihadists? >> every earmark of, one has a criminal background at least. the way they shouted out when they conducted their killings.

the reason behind the killings. so everything points in that direction. >> okay. >> i don't think anyone doubts that. >> well some do. some think they are much lower level within france and actually they are being portrayed externally. let's leave to to that o one side. what happens now in a security sense at these locations. as you infer they are part of a bigger organization and both those locations now need to be secured to quite a high bar i imagine. >> exploitation of the intelligence they can gather at the scene. that's been going on over several days and they are going to work out their social network if they haven't already. that's been job one since this happened, to build out the malignant social network of these two individuals, three individuals and it will determine if they are participant of a higher up organization or inspired by a organization such as aqap.

>> let's get back to hadley gamble. near the site of that printing complex where the two brothers were killed just moments ago. what do you know from there? >> reporter: basically as you can hear behind me, heading up the road behind us just a few kilometers away is the area where these two gunmen were finally shot and killed just a few moments ago as the police closed in. the hosten has been freed we understand. the linked gunmen we understand has also been freed. we see a constant stream of police vehicles up the road. there have been no reports of anyone being wounded in the police operations. so a third day of terror coming to an end here in france and appears that all three gunmen linked to al qaeda, linked to the same cell.

and the two prererpetrators at least two of them of the 12 from wednesday's attacks are dead now. >> hadley, it isn't clear to me at this point whether the police shot the gunmen or even whether the gunmen might have taken their own lives based on the language it is not clear to me. is it clear to you? have they been specific about how these gunmen were killed? >> reporter: we don't have specifics at this point. what we have confirmed is that the two agagunmen are dead that were at the printing press behind me. we have to wait to hear for from the authorities. we can expect a press conference in the coming moments but essentially what we do know is all three gunmen linked to these attacks are dead. >> hal hadley gamble on the ground in france at the site of the printing complex where the two suspects in the charlie

hebdo shooting this week, have been killed. betts let's get back to michelle caruso cabrera with more. >> we're going to play back the tape we had earlier of when the events unfolded to walk you through a little more about what was happening. we understand that a lot of hostages were escorted out and people who've been listening to the feed and listening to who was speaking in french that they brought in at least five ambulances but hostages definitely leaving the scene. we know if there were injuries, people who were injured were treated within the supermarket as well. and one person was at least taken out who did appear to be injured. but once again this is the tape from just a few moments ago when the hostages were able to leave the supermarket after the apparent shooting death of the of the man holding them hostage and demanding the release of the two brothers in the hostage situation near the charles de

gaulle airport. >> thanks for walking us through. i believe we still have chris swecker on the phone with us. former fbi assistant director. chris are you with us? all right. we did but we no longer do. many i shall we're wondering. -- michelle -- i believe we do have chris swecker back with us. of course we have had some audio difficulties earlier this morning. we have seen video now of the hostages being escorted out of the supermarket scene in paris, ushered towards ambulances. we do not have pictures of hostenihos hostages in the is second scene at the printing press. i'm wondering what the protocol is when you rescue hostages in this situation. what happens next? where do they go? and what type of debriefing happens from there. >> >> of course those that need

medical treatment be will get that. but an agent will go with them to the hospital and at the first opportunity to speak with them, they are going to gather up all the information that they can get from them. as part of the overall picture. >> chris, it does appear, first i'll say we have information that says that police indeed were the ones who shot and killed the two gunmen. but let me ask. give me some context here. sometimes in the united states it is hard to get a sense how other countries and regions are dealing with terror threats. does this change the mind set in paris, in france, around the approach to dealing with terrorism? gunmen in urban centers in places that are not landmarks, not government buildings, threatening ordinary people. is this something that's been seen in the past? or is this different at this point as we look back on this?

>> certainly it'ses been seen more in europe than in the united states. although we have our share of incidents here, not all terrorist related. but as people know there are fewer guns in the hands of police and citizens throughout the eu. so there may be a re-examination of how they arm police officers and security forces in those countries. here in the united states we have -- obviously we have more guns on the streets in the hands of police officers. they have heavy -- in fact they are very heavily armed at times so it may well change that paradigm over in europe. >> president hollande has said we will do everything to ensure this doesn't happen again. what will happen at the state level in france? and what information will be collected from intelligence officials to try and attack this at the ground level so it doesn't happen again? >> well first and foremost, i think -- not i'm not the arm

chair quarterback but i think they are going to keep better tabs on people who travel outside of the country to go to these conflict areas. those in prison and have been let out you can't forget about them. and i think they will keep better tabs on people who come out of the prison system. because between the internet and prison system both in united states and europe those are places where people get even more radicalized in some places they are universities for radicalization. >> let's talk about the what happened yesterday in where the head of mi-5 gave a speech in che he was talking about mass killings potentially from syria. and there were organizational skills in that country set on doing something much more dramatic, much bigger internationally. how do you rate the various threats that we have at the moment? from the lower level threat as

arguably we have here to that much bigger mass, big number situation that mi-5 is directly worded worried about? >> sure. i think they have had experience with attacks in the transportation system and areas of soft targets that are extremely vulnerable. so, you know, i think we're entering a very, very dangerous phase here. very much like what happened after the soviet invasion of afghanistan when the war ended there or the conflict ended there. you had some well-trained combat experienced people who were very firmly entrenched in the cause. true believers, going back to their host countries and exporting, if you will, the cause to the borders inside europe and the united states. so frankly, my greatest fear is the small cell attacking soft targets and much like what happened in mumbai.

>> interesting. the head of mi-5 also warned, chris, about the use of internet and increasingly a lot of these terrorists are more difficult to discover. because they are getting cleverer of the way in which they hide their activity. and they are able to encrypt their information and in particular in europe there is a lot of anger that u.s. internet companies, particularly in the u.k. but i imagine this is true in france as well, are not opening up to the terrorist -- to the inquiries on terrorist events in the same way as in this country. and there still seems to be within the intelligence community a lot of concern about that interaction between big u.s. tech companies and you guys and what you feel you need to know. where do we go on that? >> yeah as i mentioned earlier, the internet -- which really wasn't all that active prior to 9/11 -- is probably the greatest recruiting tool they have. a mass marketing tool, if you will. and obviously we can't just shut down the internet. it is used for many good

purposes. if you get into the deep dark parts of the web you will find it being used for nefarious purposes and it is very hard to sift through all of that for the carriers and it is very hard for law enforcement to simply surf through the intent looking for bad guy activity. in fact prior to 9/11, prior to the patriot act the fbi couldn't do that. they would have to have a tip or some, quote, predication before they would go looking on the internet. so, you know, we have that balance between privacy and trying to prevent bad things from happening. >> but chris, after recent news and recent situations with the nsa and supposed. ing that the government was doing on some of these databases and within some of these technology platform, it does seem that the government at least in the u.s. is enemy number one for the technology industry. do you think that after enough ho of these situations question get those two sides to cooperate, to provide the information necessary and to work together in this effort?

>> certainly hope so. i was part distinguish wh-- whe bureau i was interfacing with the technology industry on this issue. and frankly we have been hyp hyperindividual lant vigilant is area. we're right in the middle of that right now. with the new technologies that are coming on all the time with encryption and that sort of things. and many think that law enforcement shouldn't have a back door way in to intercept those communications but this type of incident reinforces that they should. >> let's get back to michelle caruso cabrera at head quarters to give us an update on everything's that happened. >> appears the two hostage situations we've been covering for almost nine hours now are

over. there were two. one northeast of marries. a -- of paris. and one in the eastern part of paris. the suspect you see in the eastern part is dead. what you see hear are the hostages that were held exiting the supermarket. that was just moments ago. so this is the hostage situation that started roughly four hours after the first hostage situation. the suspect in this situation here that you see on the screen had demanded that the two brothers of the other location be allowed to leave unharmed and freed. the second situation in the northeast of paris, to the northeast of paris, about 45 minutes away near charles de gaulle is also over. we saw moments ago the place stormed the location where they were holed up with one hostage. both of those suspects are also dead. we don't know if they were shot

dead or committed suicides. and the hostage they held has been freed. we do not have any indications or clarity about whether or not any hostages at the supermarket were dead or injured at this point. what we know is we saw individuals leaving. >> i'm sure you have seen this michelle but we had a london translator watching the local french tv which i suspect is the feed we're watching now. the suggestion there was five hostages freed. one hostage taker was actually neutralized. the safety cordon is in still in place. public lighting had been cut and that is now switched back on. the raidmen going in opening the door with a grenade and the obviously different perspectives coming through. and we'll work out over the next hour kpa whaewhat exactly has h

>> i'm certain they would have liektd to have taken these individuals alive to be able to question them at this point. but clearly that is not what happened today. but we're getting, yes -- we have more confirmation now from paris police. source of the police office who wants to remain anonymous. confirms the death of the two suspects shot dead in the assault northeast near charles de gaulle airport and one hostage released. and no details on whether or not a police officer has been hurt. there were reports that one police officer had been hurt during the raid in that small town. the assault is also completed at the supermarket. that's what we're showing you right now. and we're seeing now different reports here. that the shooter may have been arrested and one is wounded. so this is a conflicting report that's just come into nbc. two shooters arrested. one is wounded.

so we'll get back to you on this. >> and that is in relation to the siege at the supermarket. >> exactly. >> in eastern paris. >> reporter: exactly. the live picture we are showing you right now. >> chris with are you still with us. >> yes. >> let me ask about the role if i may of darkness and light here. the fact we were hearing earlier on the show that actually night fall is the friend of the security services because they are able to greater extent to disorientate. i'm not sure whether they cut the power at the commercial printing press near charles de gaulle which is the other hostage scene but certainly we now learn the public lighting was switched off before they went in here and subsequently switched back on. can you talk to us about lights power and communications and the processes that the security forces would ideally go through? >> sure. they want every advantage. the assaulting team needs every advantage possible. and if they can, they will get

the lights out. you know, they want -- usually they will shut off the power at the very beginning of a hostage situation. but in this case they probably want want to antagonize them until they decided to do their assault. the second advantage they have, if you have ever been inside a room when a flash bang goes off. even when you were expecting that concussion grenade, and i've experienced it. it will stun you for several seconds and that gives added advantage to the assaulting team. and of course violence of motion, rapid movement, knowing where they need to go and what they need to do gives them another sang advantage. so it really is a tribute to the skill of the hostage team here that they were able to get the hostages out. >> joining us again is steven urlinger, the london bureau chief for the "new york times." we just spoke to you an hour and

a half ago. seems like a lifetime in terms of what's happened on the ground. what are you able to bring us? >> well i can't bring you anything that you probably don't already know. the two hostage takers were related. one in eastern paris threatened to kill his hosteningaages with colleagues were killed. the police essentially went in and did both of them at the same time. can the reports is is that all of the suspects are dead. and i don't know as much detail on the kosher store operation, which is less clear. but the reports are that the two main brother at the printing plant at come out firing and were shot dead. so things are a little confused. >> interesting. you are breaking up slightly. we can actually see the kosher situation on the left of our

screens at the moment. what i find interesting, are you suggesting that at the commercial printing press where the two brothers were near charles de gaulle that they actually came out fighting? is that what you just said? >> that's some of the reports that we've seen. i can't confirm them for you. because as usual with these things there are is a lot of reporting in the beginning that turns out not to be precisely accurate. so we should all be a bit careful. but the two brothers are dead. and le monde is quoting a police official saying the hostage taker at the kosher supermarket had also been killed. >> steven, thank you very much for that. it's good to have you back. michelle, if that is proven to be accurate an interesting edition to what we know. if they had come out firing on the commercial printing press on two situations that were inexorably linked.

who they liked it or not. they would have to move on both simultaneously. and whether the actions the suspects at the commercial operation triggered what we're seeing on the screen now. >> that is possible. because we're seeing more than one report what we're they are calling the charlie hebdo brothers actually came out shooting at police and that's when they were killed. two different wire sources reporting that. what is less clear is whether or not the gunmen or suspects at the supermarket are dead. we've seen one report from le monde that one suspect is dead and yet we see another source telling nbc news that two have been arrested. so that is still unclear at this point. but indeed, as you say the two terror suspects coming out shooting before being killed by police may have been maybe the catalyst certainly to start the operation at the area in the small industrial town northeast of paris.

>> let me bring in chris swecker. you have been through this with us over the last few minutes. you are aware of the context. again that is new information. potentially very important in realizing exactly what happened here, no? >> very much so. i'm -- if they are roeeacting t the two coming out. there are a couple of variables. they may have had to assume these subjects were in touch with each other. maybe via cell phone or access to radio or television. so one event may well have triggered the other assault on the supermarket. that is the fog of war and those that could provide the information are obviously busy taking care of the information right now. i guess the facts will continue to filter in. >> let's bring back former cia officer gary bernstein what. do you make of what's unfolded up to this point sthsmt charlie hebdo attacks.

12 dead in that situation. and then the supermarket, the kosher supermarket situation unfold where thus far we have not heard anyone beyond the attackers themselves has died, fortunately. and then we have the charlie hebdo tahe hebdo attackers out at a commercial print industrial location, took one hostage. apparently released that hostage, came out shooting. from this series of events, what if anything can you gather about the mind set of these attackers? is this similar to in the past or different in some way? they seemed to try to get away, not go out in a blaze at one initial event. >> first off, cold-blooded killer terrorists doing initial attack. it looks like they didn't have a great exfill plan. that was the case in the 1998. they didn't have good documents and didn't have a plan.

people scattered on their own and made mistakes. frequently people don't believe they are going to survive the initial assault and don't take the time to plan their ex-fils as trade craft would allow. they of course did an a horrendous act and of course got worn down by time. the french security services threw everything they had at them. and were able to contain this thing and engage them and end it in what appears to be very professionally from what i've been able to see. the french security forces, gign are very well trained. they are an experienced force. i expected them to prevail in this. i'm very happy about the fact -- as we all are -- that it looks like the hostages have been rescued. but, you know, this -- you know, europe has a big problem.

they have no go zones. millions of peoples that have settled there that have not been integrated into their society. this thing has festered. we have states now, secular states across the middle east that have collapsed and are feeding terrorists into these areas. this is a long fight we are in. this is a battle of civil station ization and this is just not chapter in that. >> gary let me take you back. you describe with great power how these terrorists may not have thought through exactly what was going to happen. the new information that we appear to have and as you and others have suggested this is the fog of war. the detail need move prove to be wrong wrong but we were told there were several report has the commercial printing press, that actually the two suspects had emerged from the printing press, from the building and had begun firing. now just talk us through for

security standpoint when you are on high alert, you are attempting to contain the situation and that happens. a, the state of the suspects which must be very important in ruling to how you would then respond to what you're confronted with. >> counterterrorism forces and s.w.a.t. forces are going to use force on two occasions, when they see the individuals, the hostages are at risk or there is an armed break out. so if you see them coming out firing they may be attempting to do an armed breakout. they don't know. there are thousands of people there but they are going to give it a the last go. maybe it's 90% suicide and 10% hope they can escape. but that is the believe. the security forces and countersecurity forces surrounded them are waiting for this. this is one of the two options they are looking at. so if that is in fact what they

did do, it is no big surprise to the security forces. here they come. >> stay was for a moment. you are also watching pictures there. where the french president of course has been having emergency meetings and had officials moving to and fro. it is eastern time now. noon eastern time. michelle over to you. >> simon, it is noon here in the east coast of the united states. 6:00 p.m. in paris. the two hostage situations in france are over ending in a violent finish with multiple dead at this on it. unclear the actual number. the two kouachi brothers who police say are the terrorists who killed 12 people at the magazine charlie hebdo. both gentlemen are dead according to reports. they came out guns blazing at a location northeast of paris and shot dead. they were holding one