they just feel like they have no choice. >> yeah, dave saying it puts yellen in an interesting spot. either you do or you don't, and you seem darned as the saying goes. either way. guys, thanks for joining me on "closing bell." rob sox, michael santoli and "fast money" begins now. >> live from the nasdaq overlooking new york city's time square. pete najarian, guy adami. there's more pain to come. he'll tell us what he's looking at and check out these two photos. can you tell which is shot on the iphone 7? if you can, it might explain why apple's stock is surging. and later, heading out to the conference of captivating wall street, the man, the myth, the legend, carl icahn. warning about a market selloff.

the story of the day, the dow losing 258 points and really started with the bond market. check out the yield. this is why it matters to stocks. 7 of the 10 s&p sectors currently yield more than the ten-year bond. investors buying stocks because they are the new bonds. how big of a problem is this? bk. >> well, listen, we've talked about this. i mean, it's made me sick, we talked about it so much. this is what is going on. people are buying bonds. we're buying bonds for capital appreciation and stocks for yield. it's an upside down market. it's an upside down world. now it's starting to come home to roost. the volatilities increased. and the other thing you need to know, there is some underlying krentsz. some strategies out there that buy both stocks and bonds. and when the volatility is low, they get bigger in their stock positions. when the volatility goes high, then they have to sell those stock positions and sell the bond positions. so that's why you're starting to see both of these come down. and i would say, if you're a

bull, you want to root for lower rates, because higher rates are not good for this stock market. >> those so-called risk par ity funds. our friend from jpmorgan. what was so stunning about the selloff today, across the board. didn't matter what asset classes, bonds, stocks, gold. >> right. >> and then at the end of the day, the dollar reversed as well. >> some of that ends up being panic and we hear about it all of the time. when people are feeling the pain in certain places, they go to the places where they have had winners and start to take some of that off, as well. so i think that combination is why we saw this just follow through at the very end of the day. we actually dropped another 40 points from where we were trading in the last maybe 15 minutes of the day. we have been talking for a really long time about volatili volatility, how low it was, since the middle of july, somewhere between 11 and 13. now these big spikes in volatility. the opportunity was, either you want to protect or you do stock replacement. we've talked about it time and time again. one of these days, people will start listening. but they oftentimes don't,

because they get very, very bullheaded in terms of what they think is really going to happen and how long it's going to extend. sooner or later that ends. it looks like it's ending right now and volatility, breaking above the 200-day moving average for the vix, pretty impressive. pretty healthy move when you look at a week or so ago, trading in the 12th and now we're 18s and in the 20s. incredible how much volatility can really explode in times like this when people see panic. that doesn't mean there is not opportunities out there. a few things i was able to buy today. i actually added to apple. i also bought into lululemon. and i also looked at a few other names i thought were very, very interesting. jetblue being one of them in the airline industry. >> here's the thing. pete just laid out the volatility picture. six or seven weeks, it was boring. had to make stories up here and there. but here all of a sudden now we have a situation where rates are moving, stocks are moving, it's all happening very short period of time. i think it's really important to remember, the last time the fed raised interest rates, last december, the first time in nine

years, the yield in the ten-year treasury 2.2%. here we are at 1.73 and people are panicking in the stock market a little bit as we're up from 1.31 a couple months ago here. and i don't think that's the reason to panic. because we have interest rates moving higher, we know that the fed is not going to be raising rates until december. in some ways -- >> i don't know if we know that. >> we kind of do. they made a fairly clear over the last couple days that they may go in september. >> not a chance. >> i'm not sure it's as clear. i don't think they should. but i don't think it's that clear. >> when the fed lowers rates, they want to surprise the market and they want to have that effect on the stock market or on risk assets in general. they don't want to do it the other way, right? >> they don't -- if they're thinking about raising rates, they don't want to shock you on it. that's why they have come out over the last week and said that. >> the futures are pricey -- >> they're trying to manipulate that market. they're trying to get that market -- >> why would they do that? >> they don't want to raise rates. >> going back to 1994, goldman sachs research from may. when they looked at the 31 rate

increases, okay? during that time period, 50%, okay -- 50% probability of a rate hike 30 days pryer. they don't like to surprise. >> that's my point. >> this is what we've got. we got that on friday, the reaction today. you know what's striking about friday and today? >> tell me, please. >> the s&p 500 closed -- we're a few points away from where we actually closed on friday. that's what the damage has been. round trip. >> total round trip. to me the damage started with sovereign bonds. >> yes, definitely. >> it's interesting. we had kevin o'leary on i forget what night last week, talked about why he wanted to be in european stocks because the ecb had his back. the next day, the ecb basically came out and said, guess what, kevin o'leary, we no longer have your back. and if you look what's happened to interest rates since then, they have all gone up in a significant fashion. so i think u.s. rates are more function of what's happening overseas. doesn't matter. gets you to the same place.

>> including the german it ten-year bond. we saw that rise from negative. >> negative yielding bonds are a bubble. almost by definition. it's -- it's never happened before. and it's -- it's happening now. you do not want to be long. those type of fixed income. i could make the argument that on a selloff you want to start buying tlt on a relative value basis. >> buying -- >> that's what i would do. i have about a third of a position in tlt right now. and if we get, let's say back to maybe -- if we get to 180-ish on the ten-year, i'll probably add a little more tlt, because what's happening is the fundamentals of the economy are deteriorating, even if the fed raises. then people are still going to want to buy tlt, because the dollar is going to go up. which has been happening for the last year or so. so on these pull backs, that's what you do. >> so the cross current coming out of delivering alpha today, saying sell g 7 bonds. >> i would rather sell german bonds and italian bonds. >> i think they're still a safe

haven. >> what do you think? >> i think you can buy u.s. treasuries, do the tlt closer to 130. i don't think that they're going to go in september or november. and when you think about -- they've already priced in a 25 basis point move since the fed started talking a little bit more -- >> short-term buy on the market overall? you think they're not going to go in september -- >> 2050 in the s&p. higher than in mid december when they did the raise. and we are at 3% from the highs. i think if you get that sort of fiber cent pull back -- >> you know what stood out today? >> what stood out today, melissa? >> technology. >> you heard petey over there talking about -- apple had a huge part of that, no question about it. what i thought also is interesting today. not to -- your question was financials underperformed, right? you would have thought on a day like today, financials would be down, but not down nearly as much. i don't know what it means but

definitely took out. >> the yield curve steepened since the beginning of july. >> wells fargo. and then i would add in oil, too. right? we know that at some point oil stocks are becoming -- not a 45, probably below 40. you might have some people taking profits in anticipation of that. >> all right. it has been a bumpy right for investors in september, to say the least. if you would have listened oh our next guest, you would have made some money. there is clearly a case we could get an upside break out here, but with the long stock going into the worst month seasonally speaking, i think the bigger trade is to the down side. the neck line here, 2130, that's the point you do not want to go beneath. >> 2130. we're at 2127 on the close here. so is the correction coming? rich ross of isi is back. what do you say, rich? >> yeah, melissa. thanks for that. you're too kind. obviously the problem for stocks is bonds.

it's not the only problem, but let's focus on that today. this is your ten-year yield. we see you're still in a down trend, this is a big move in terms of yield from 135 all the way back up to 175, 176. i heard bk reference this. your 200-day. 180. above 180, forget about it. here's the chart that makes it real interesting. the weekly, the big double bottom here, a false breakdown to an all-time low in yield is the mirror image of the false breakout to an all-time high in stocks. july of 2012, the last bottom, july of 2016. july, bad time for a bottom in yields and a -- >> sorry to interrupt. we're awaiting some news out of delivering alpha. bottom line, though, correction? what do you see for stocks? >> bottom line, yes. 2050, 2,000 is where i become extremely interested. 2050, you probably get a bounce. >> thanks, rich isi. we want to listen in on carl icahn being interviewed by scott

wapner. >> interesting day. dow down 260 points. and we've heard from some of the world's best investors and brightest investors today who say that times are dangerous. paul singer, who you listened to back in your office, said that it was a dangerous time. ray dahl owarned if the fed raises interest rates, you could have asymmetric risks. are you still as negative today as you have been for the better part of the last year? >> yeah. i mean, i don't know if negative is the right word, exactly. but i think there are tremendous risks. and -- but i think anyone that is going to tell you it's going to go down tomorrow, next week, even next month or next year, it's sort of guessing game. but you could look at the environment and i think it's very dangerous. in other words, you are walking on a ledge, and you might make it to the end. but, hey, you fall off that ledge, you're going to really see trouble. and i think that could well be.

>> what pushes you off the ledge? is it the fed raising interest rates? you think they should? jamie dimon yesterday said they should. today ray dahl osaid they shouldn't. what does carl icahn say? >> i really will tell you i don't think it matters. because either way, there's a problem. if you don't raise interest rates, i think we're in a major bubble. you can't -- i think cigna said it right. i heard him for a while. and he is a very smart guy. i've known him for years. i think he's smart, despite the fact that he's not for trump. i think he's smart. so, yeah. he told me that. you know. no uncertain terms. i just saw him -- i haven't seen him for a few months. he takes it really seriously. and he says me somewhere, and he looks at me, "carl -- sort of complimentary. he said, you're a smart guy, you're a super smart guy. and then all of a sudden, he's got this rage.

how can you be for trump! and first i was laughing. and then i said, relax, relax, paul. and he really -- but he's a very -- he is a very smart guy. and he's one of the few guys i really respect on wall street. and i thought -- i listened to him today, and i honestly -- a lot of the things he said i couldn't have said it better myself. and that's saying a lot. he -- he was right on. you know what he was really on and -- we get into these regulatory agencies. and there are good regulatory agencies that do good jobs, good regulators. but there are so many that -- his words were right on. amazingly arrest fwant when you talk to them. and -- >> you've taken on the epa. >> it's not even taking on. a woman in the epa, look, i'm too old not to be politically correct. this woman, janet mccabe. and you know, she's number two

something or other. and she is responsible for the most idiotic -- and, look, i have an agenda here. but the reason i'm bringing it up is it fits into what it is wrong with our economy. people like her. and i'll tell you why. no, seriously. and everybody is afraid to say anything about. oh, don't say anything, there will be reprisal. i'm too old for that. let them do reprisal. we own a refinery. refineries, a couple of them. and here's what they do. and here's how irrational it is. and she's running this program. and get this. it's hard to believe. it's like out of "alice in wonderland." they have this program where -- i'm not against the rfs, and i'm not -- i'm certainly not against ethanol or for ethanol or clean air. i like clean air, i think it's great. but the whole point of what i'm saying is, that a few years ago,

they passed the clean air act, and renewable fuel standards. and that's fine. and then they come to the -- they come to this point, they go to the epa and say, in all your wisdom. and i will say this. i mean, janet mccabe, i'm certain she is a smart woman and nice woman. never run a business, no business background. and they say, you or whoever did this, you are going to police the fact that in the clean air act -- i'm going to make it simple, because i know scott is going to push me off in a minute, because he doesn't want to talk about this much. but, look, they push this thing in and say refineries, you are responsible for blending 10% ethanol, or something to that effect. i'm making it simple. they have what they call a blending law. and they keep raising it. more and more. it's like the israelites in egypt, when the farrow wanted bricks, but you needed straw and

he wouldn't give any straw. he said i'm going to kill if you don't give bricks. that's what they do here with the refineries. they say you have to blend this thing and we say fine. you go to the rack, you take it off the rack, and we say, we're happy to blend it. however, there's one little problem. the big gas station chains only owned mostly by big oil are saying, we don't want to buy your blended gasoline. we'll only buy unblended. we'll blend it ourselves. so we go to the epa and say now what do we do? she said, hey, that's your problem. i'm paraphrasing. this happened a few years ago. that's your problem. so how do we do it? well, at the end of the year, you have to give us something called rin. it's a piece of paper, really electronic. so they say, if you don't blend t you've got to go to the gas station -- let's say you have 7-eleven or the big oil companies that own them. and you have got to go buy -- they make -- they blend it. they take our gasoline, blend it

and then make a rin. okay. and now you've got to buy it. for a while, that was okay. it costs them 5 cents to make it, they charge you 10 or 15 cents. now the speculators on wall street, which is what they do -- it's analogous to the housing bubble. which is just what happened. and i'm not blaming the wall street guys. what the hell, they're speaker laters, that's what they do. so they started hoarding it and it's a completely criminal market now. there is no regulation in it. the rins up 5,000%. or the smaller refineries are going bankrupt. but here's -- and you go -- and you try to call this janet mccabe. you know. i say, look, i call up. try to be a nice guy to the secretary, please, i would like to talk. oh, she's on vacation. i said, well, i mean -- >> your voice on the phone has a way of scaring some people. >> i said i'm trying to be funny, you know. and they don't laugh. oh, she's on vacation, can't she spend ten minutes, get off the mountain or something, for ten minutes? they don't laugh. we don't disturb people on

vacation. i said, what if the world is falling apart? we're not going bankrupt, but there are so many going bankrupt. sorry. so it took me three weeks. i get a call. an hour to go before the phone call message, and say, she's not going to talk to you. so i said, well, you know something? i could get to the president of the united states in three weeks. or less than three weeks. it's very important. no, shell not talk to you. and this is exactly what cigna said. amazingly arrogant. let me finish the point. >> i do want to move on. >> you can move on right after this statement. so i said to her -- and i think this was funny. they didn't. i said, to the secretary, not her, because i couldn't get her. i said to one of the secretaries, look -- she says, the only way she'll speak with you, perhaps, when you're in washington -- and i said, i'll go to washington. well, when you're in washington, call her up and maybe we'll find some time for you. so she can see you. i said, i'll tell you what. i'll send you my picture, i'll put it on her desk, i'll frame

it nicely and i'll frame her picture and i can look at it while i talk to her. no laughter. she wouldn't even talk to me. now, i really don't want to boast. of but i made the point. and sent her a 30-page paper on why this is going to be destructi destructive. bring on great scandals, but worse than that, it's going to bankrupt a bunch of refineries, big oil is going to get what they always wanted, which you're going to see in a year or two, and you're going to get something like the housing crisis. because what's going to happen is, a lot of these refineries are owned by foreign entities, and they're going to push gasoline prices up double and triple and hurt our economy, and people know that. and the fellow named tom o'malley, the dean in this area, has been writing letters how it is going to be this huge scandal and huge bankruptcies. so my point is, this is what cigna was saying. they're amazingly arrogant, but i'll make my point about the

economy. >> the point you're making, in a sense, one of the reasons why you say you support trump. you think, and you've made the case you think he will get rid of some of the regulations that are harming business. of. >> but it's sort of worse than the regulations. it's the fear of these irrational regulations. i have a lot of companies. other people, you know -- other ceos i know. so if you're a ceo -- this is -- i look at this so simply, and you don't have to go through a lot of calculation. you look at it simply. you've got a ceo, you know, i've been critics of ceos, some i like, some i don't. but most of these guys are political survivors so they've got a business. and the business is doing okay or well. you can borrow money at zero percent or 2% or 1%. what would you do if you're a ceo? on the one hand, you can take that money, build machinery,

build factories and make our workers productive with new machinery. i mean, the pundits are all -- why are we not productive, because machinery is terrible. and the reason is that if you are the ceo -- >> we have been listening to carl icahn speaking to our own scott wapner here in new york city. a couple of themes so far about five to seven minutes into the interview, still tremendous risks in the market. and also talked about bureaucracy in the government and the fact there is too many government agencies out there and hearing about politics all day long. and, also, of course, risks in the market, the ongoing theme where we saw a market selloff on the dow. >> right. let's just take the risks in the market on -- are you getting paid to own stocks, are you getting -- the reward versus what the risk could be. and for the last two years, the answer is no. i mean, today we are now down, i believe, since november 2014.

market has gone nowhere. so, all right, maybe if you held stocks and got dividends, that's fine. but really, what is your reward at this point in time, it particularly if you start to see a slowing economy, which we started to see over the last couple weeks. >> what's reward in your view, guy? how are the risks/rewards? >> you have to make a decision. bk talked about it earlier and rich ross talking about the ten-year yield. if it gets up to the 180 level, i think the reward could be getting back into the bond trade. i also think, if you're looking for trade to sort of be on the other side of it, if you think rates are going to continue to go higher and i've said this for a while, you have got to get out of names like at&t and verizon. in my opinion, the only reason they have rallied as significantly as they have over the last six months or so is because people are looking for a place for yields. steve grasso has been talking about that for quite some time. still ahead, we will bring the other big headlines from the delivering alpha conference and how our traders are delivers those moves on fast.

here's what else is coming up on "fast." one of these photos was shot with the new iphone. can you tell the difference? if you can, it might explain why apple shares are surging. and our traders will tell you just how high they see it going, when "fast money" returns. where, in all of this, is the stuff that matters? the stakes are so high, your finances, your future. how do you solve this? you don't. you partner with a firm that advises governments and the fortune 500, and, can deliver insight person to person, on what matters to you. morgan stanley.

upgrade your phone system and learn how you could save at vonage.com/business

welcome back to "fast money." wells fargo plunging more than 3% after treasury secretary jack lew had this to say earlier inside cnbc's delivering alpha conference. >> this ought to be a moment when people stop and remember how dangerous the system is when you don't have the proper protections in place. this is something that our wash dogs found. if they weren't there, they would still be going on. this is a wake-up call. it should remind all of us and firms that culture and compensation make a difference. how you reward people, how you motivate people. and what values you hold people to matter. >> we should note, while the bank fired more than 5,000 employees, no one has been charged. brian kelly. >> yeah. so i would say -- so what do you do with wells fargo in this case? you don't buy it. you want to be aggressive, you can short it, because this is

not over. there's no way that 5,300 people get fired, millions of accounts are opened, and nobody knew anything about this? you're going to have congressional hearings, people are going to get hauled on to the tv. reminds me very much in that sense of what's been happening with biotech, right? where you had this -- all of a sudden, everybody piles on biotech because prices went up, we didn't like it. same thing with wells fargo. >> we had a fierce debate friday about whether or not the political implications would be a problem. here we are, senate banking committee hearing next -- whatever, the 20th. ceo, wells fargo, is going to have to go to the hill and testify and here we are with wells fargo down more than 3%. >> 5,300 people. the question you have to ask yourself, could it just be exclusive to wells fargo? i don't speak to the incentive programs of other banks. but to think that just wells fargo and 5,300 people in a vacuum -- >> only in wells fargo. >> makes you wonder. now i'll say this -- bk pointed

out the risks associated with this. tremendous risk. look at the banks that have traded well throughout. wells fargo, by the way, made an all-time high the middle of last year. it's been trading down ever since. the other side of that juxtapose it with u.s. bank corp, great bank out of the wonderful state of minnesota, that stock within a whisper of an all-time high. why? they do everything right. not to say wells fargo is corrupt across the board, but u.s. bank is, in my opinion, beyond reproach. >> if you think this is going to bubble into something bigger here and given the fact that the stock is already down almost 10% in the last month or so, i would say there is impossible that citigroup and bank america could not have thousands or at least hundreds of people doing the same stuff. these are similar businesses, right? they write the same sort of loans, open up the same sort of accounts and this is a competitive industry for people. >> do you think it spreads? >> here's the thing. i would not be shorting wells fargo here as a trade. but i would look at bank america or citigroup or the f. and that would be one where it's

pretty heavily weighted towards these money center banks. >> on a programming note, big interview tonight, john stump will be jim cramer's guest on "mad money." still ahead, apple higher today as iphone 7 preorders shatter records. the reviews are bullish. but is it enough to keep the momentum going? we'll explain, much more "fast money" right after this. energy is a complex challenge. people want power. and power plants account for more than a third of energy-related carbon emissions. the challenge is to capture the emissions before they're released into the atmosphere. exxonmobil is a leader in carbon capture. our team is working to make this technology better, more affordable so it can reduce emissions around the world. that's what we're working on right now. ♪ energy lives here. announcer: when they test you, stand firm

and move only when you hear the seatbelt click that says they're buckled in for the drive. never give up till they buckle up.

welcome back to "fast money." we want to go back to carl icahn speaking at the delivering alpha conference to our own scott wapner. >> you can't even blame them. you can't blame -- i really don't blame mccabe for screwing this up. she shouldn't be doing it. she should be talking to other people and getting their advice. >> let me ask you -- >> and then these rins are going to blow up one day and then you're going to say, oh, this guy o'malley -- there's going to be a huge government scandal. and then they'll be all looking for the scapegoats and maybe blame her for a little bit. what difference does it make when you've got a lot of people with the housing problem and the government maybe can't save it this time. >> let me ask you about bill ackman.

two years ago, we sat on this very stage in this room and you guys hugged it out. >> i remember it well. >> as do i. >> and then now -- >> we hugged? >> you did. it was a little awkward hug, but it was a hug. now -- >> i think i tripped on the steps. >> now you guys are back at it. what happened? >> i don't think we're back at it. i really don't believe that. i mean, he said a few things about -- i mean, look -- i take a little affront -- when i say -- i get the right from herbalife to buy up to 35%. and then i read that ackman is saying i'm manipulating the market. i'm a manipulator, because i said i wanted to buy the 35%, and i didn't really mean it. so is i said well, okay. i bought the 2.5 million shares just recently, and he said, well -- i don't know what he

said about that. >> look, you were -- >> you talk to him, i don't talk to him. >> you were mad, correct me if i am wrong, that he went on our network on cnbc and said that you were getting out because you believed that herbalife was, quote, toast. >> you want me to tell you the honest truth? i'm not jokinging. i wasn't mad. i wasn't really mad. >> just bought more than 2 million shares that day, just for a goof? >> it was down ten points, wasn't it? >> because they thought you were getting out. >> well, maybe he did me a favor and got it down ten points for me. ever think of that? maybe i did want to buy it. maybe he was wrong. >> you did consider getting out. >> is that a question? or is a statement? because you know i'm not going to answer it. >> maybe it's a little bit of both. why -- >> why don't you go to the next question?

>> why do you continue to believe in that business after the settlement with the ftc raises a number of serious questions about where that business could potentially be years from now? >> look, the ftc was involved, in my opinion, because of ackman, pure and simple. got the marquis to go in and get them going. that's my opinion on that. and -- but that i don't know. actually, the ftc -- when i look the -- when i look at regulatory agencies, by and large, the herbalife may be mad at me for saying it, but i think they've done a pretty good job by and large on things. so i'm not here to argue about what they did. i think they took maybe too long in looking at this company. i honestly will tell you that i think that they know or maybe they're not saying it, that we are not -- never were and were

not a pyramid scheme. we make a real product. a pyramid scheme, i give you this pencil and you get three other guys to sell pencils. that's not true here. we make a product, people eat it. but the interesting thing about herbali herbalife, the irony is, he says -- i'm trying to save these poor women that, you know, do this thing. and they -- that's their only livelihood. they're out there, they have their friends, and friends go and they drink this drink, and you can say it's no good, it's -- i'm not going to comment on the drink. but i will say they make some good products, i believe. i personally don't like the drink. i drank it, it gave me a lot of gas. i didn't like it. but, but, but -- a lot of people love the damn drink. and i drink this vitamin c. this vitamin thing every morning. i haven't got a cold since i've been drinking it. i've been doing it for two years.

put it in the thing. drink this stuff. my point to you is, they make good products. one. two, there is something for this last mile concept where there are people -- when i was a kid, i was 14, i was always working. i sold fuller brushes. you go -- you know when you sell -- you knock on doors, some people like it, some people slam the door in your face and you go to your friends. and the friends buy the fuller brushes from you. that's what these people do. and they make a living from that. and some people make a great living from it. now, did they go too far? some of these sales people go too far, the distributors n saying, hey, you can have a mercedes-benz, i don't know. but the real issue is, that these people have jobs and are working because there is a model in it our society where you're not -- everything isn't going to be bought on the internet. and by the way, our retailers don't personally sell you. there is a model for personal

sales. and the irony -- and here's a question for ackman, too. that, you know, with it all, the sales in the united states are only i think 15 or -- >> 20%. >> 20%. so it's only 20%. united states, i think, will do fine. i think there are regulation social security and some of the regulations in an ironic way are maybe good for herbalife, because we spent the money in the technology to police them. some of the smaller, you know -- smaller sales operations, companies are going to have trouble. so it might even be good. then let's go to outside of the united states where this model really works. you know, china first quarter you have 36% over a year ago. and i think second quarter 14. it's choppy. it's going to be down and up. but it's still going up. and that's going around the world. so you've got a model that i think works. and if i'm wrong, i'm wrong. i'm not here to sell herbalife. but i am telling you that i'm not just playing games buying

the stock. i think it works. i can change my mind. but i would tell you this. that i also looked, because i'm a market specialist, as i told janet mccabe's secretary, and i think i know markets. and as far as i'm concerned, i think no one that -- i don't want to say it in a bad way about ackman. but no professional would really want to be short a company where you've got 92 million shares outstanding and 28 million short, and of those 92 -- >> and we've been listening to carl icahn, specifically addressing his long position in herbalife, which is the opposite position, of course, as bill ackman. and he almost made a dig at ackman, saying no professional would take such a large concentrated short position.

>> something -- so he did the same thing at his company conseco 15, 20 years ago. >> so if you recall -- a guy named irwin jacobs, really hold old-school, took the other side of it. this is just history repeating itself, except now he's on the other side. i know that, carl. you've got to be careful what you say. good job. >> but i think he brings up just in terms of trading and investing, right? the point he's writing bringing up, it's about position sizing and what your portfolio looks like. let's say you like apple. you don't want apple to be 90% of your portfolio. it may have worked the last couple years, but if you manage money you want to have a diversification out there and you don't want to be 90% of your portfolio short one stock or long one stock. >> what do you say? >> that is how he runs his business. he buckets these things, creates verticals and goes all-in, and did it in target. and so this is what he's doing. they do a lot of deep dive research. he knows -- he feels it in his you know whats, that this thing

is going much, much lower. >> i think it's lower. >> bones. >> that's what i meant. and so -- here's the thing about icahn. >> by the bones. >> and therefore, there is no reason for him to get out. he can just continue to juice the short. still ahead, apple surging on a slew of positive reviews and record reorders for the new iphone 7. while that may be big news for the stock, when it comes to the camera, can you spot the difference between these photos from the old iphone 6 and the new iphone 7? we did some experimenting of our own, and the answer just might surprise you. all that and much more ahead on "fast."

welcome back to "fast money." the new iphone 7 reviews are coming in and creating some excitement. this comes as t-mobile reports preorders for the new iphones were the highest in the carrier's history and sprint saying orders are up more than 375% over last year's apple success debut. the burge calling the iphone 7 and 7 plus terrific but also incomplete. rico didn't see it as a

compelling reason to upgrade. but tech crunch calling them the best ever. and the new models as the magnificent 7 in a review, calling them superb smartphones. apple shares are up more than 2% today on the news. in spite of the big market selloff. the dow's only gainer on the day. the man behind mashable's iphone review joins us here onset. lance has brought with him the iphone 7, as well as the 7-plus and sporting the wireless ear buds which allegedly do not fall out of your ears. >> they do not. air pods. i've been wearing them almost nonstop, it seems, for the last four or five days. and they don't go anywhere. they've got five hours of charge, and they come with this 24-hour bit of charge in the case here. but, you know, you don't need them, and you don't need them if you buy these new iphones. >> pass those around? >> sure. so you've got the iphone 7 there with the jet black case. and you've got the iphone 7

plus, with the black case. both of them have 12 mega pixel cameras. in fact, the exact same 12 mega pixel cameras. you'll notice on the big 7 plus, there is a dual camera design, because there is also a built in 2 x optical zoom, one of the big selling points for the bigger 7 plus. they both also start with 32 gigabytes of storage, thank goodness, because that would be crazy. if you look at the bottom, everyone take a look at the bottom, there is no 3.5 millimeter jack, all right? that is a big deal for people, the thing that was rumored, what people are afraid of. it has happened, but don't freak out. because they also -- every single one of them ships with this, which is the ear bud with the lightning port at the end. and this. and here's what proves that apple got way ahead of the curve. this is a donningel, this is an adopter that goes from the lightning port to 3.5 millimeter jacks, so for all of your beats headphones, all of your favorite

headphones, you can still plug them in. but you only have one port at the bottom and i know everybody is upset, because you can't charge and you can't listen at the same time. some people like me charge at night. i don't do that. but if you need to, there are adapters you can put on the bottom which i don't really like. so there is that. and by the way, give me one of those phones for a second. >> sure. >> i've got to explain one other really important thing. >> and then we have -- >> i promise this will be okay. i want to just do that for a second. so -- they're waterproof. they're basically water resistant to one meter, thirty minutes. if you go into the pool accidentally, you drop it in the toilet, you don't have a problem. >> you have a problem if you drop it in the toilet. might not be a water problem. but you've got a problem with your phone. >> so the only thing i'll tell you, if you do that, just don't plug it in for five hours, that will probably have to dry out. the only caveat. but it's -- i dropped this into a bucket of water, i've run it under water. and it works. >> and they work. >> so obviously, the camera is

the big selling point of the iphone 7, according to lance and many other people. so we actually devised a test of our own here. earlier, guy and pete helped us out with this test with the iphone 7 camera to see how it compares with the older model. here's identical side by side photos. which one can you guess was shot on the iphone 7? brian? >> left. you're asking a dyslexic kid to go left or right. >> the one that has more color, which is to me on the right as i'm looking at it. >> oh. left was the iphone 7. now let's take a look at the second set of identical photos here and see if you can guess which was on the older phone or newer phone. >> i say right -- no, no, wait i'm going left this time. because it looks worse. >> so you think -- okay, the 7 photos look worse. dan. >> left. >> and the answer is? >> yeah. >> let's take a look at this

third set of photos. identical photos. oh. >> left. >> dan? >> right. >> and the answer is? all right. >> dan knows a lot. >> what is the verdict here? when tim cook tweeted out the sports illustrated photos, they were stunning photos. and these are arguably ordinary people would take these photos of them sharing a hot dog and things like that. and you -- >> yeah, so the difference. they're both 12 mega pixel camera on the iphone 7 and the iphone 6 s. the mega pixels haven't changed, the color element has. six elements. and the f stop is open to 1.8. but those things, especially 1.8 is going to help you in lower light situations. this is actually a bright day. so it wasn't much of a difference. but i took the pictures just holding it up really fast and taking this shot. i saw small color differences between the 6 s and the 7. i actually saw bigger differences in the image quality

between the 7 and the galaxy s7 from samsung. >> galaxy was better? >> no, the galaxy -- what samsung tends to do is overbrighten colors. which actually when people look at them, they like it. but it is not true color. >> right. >> so the thing is, you want your colors -- you want your pictures to be true to life. i think that this camera on the 7 is a nice camera and a good camera. i'm much more excited about the 2 kps x optical zoom. you can go to 10x digital zoom. i wouldn't recommend that. >> so it sounds like a rave review. if you just got a phone last year, is it worth the upgrade? >> a lot of people got 6s. a 6 because it's a big leap. the selfie camera, automatic image stabilization, look better. that's good for you. >> selfies. >> so, yeah, i think -- people

are on 5s and 5 -- yeah. they're going to want to upgrade, absolutely. because the technology is so much better. inside is the -- >> the other part of the review at the very bottom is to wait. to wait until next year. >> well -- >> the 8 -- on the tenth anniversary is going to be a huge deal. >> maybe, maybe. there's been -- okay. there are always rumors. and sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. >> what do your bones tell you, lance? >> well, i think what's happening is, here's something that's very important to pay attention to. why does this look very much the same as the phone last year? you start to run out of things you can do with the slab. they have been polishing, they have taken away somin dents. this button isn't even a moving button any more. it's a vibration underneath. and by next year, of course they'll take away the indent. what is the point any more? so those things are going to happen. but apple doesn't tend to go for weird, kitcheny things. they go for things they think will help their customers. >> lance, thank you.

mashable. next, hedge fund heavyweights sending shock waves. and how our traders are playing them right after this break. more "fast money" still ahead. i'm here at the td ameritrade trader offices. steve, other than making me move stuff, what are you working on? let me show you. okay. our thinkorswim trading platform aggregates all the options data you need in one place and lets you visualize that information for any options series. okay, cool. hang on a second. you can even see the anticipated range of a stock expecting earnings. impressive... what's up, tim. td ameritrade. this just in. 50 million customers' data was not compromised this morning in a security breach that didn't happen. wall street, not rattled... at all! no. sir, sir. what went right? everything. we have a brief statement on this non-breach. we're happy to report there's nothing to report.

my dad's company wasn't hacked today. cool. my dad's company wasn't hacked today. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪

we're drowning in information. where, in all of this, is the stuff that matters? the stakes are so high, your finances, your future. how do you solve this? you don't. you partner with a firm that advises governments and the fortune 500, and, can deliver insight person to person, on what matters to you. morgan stanley.

welcome back to "fast money." our own scott wapner is's discussion with carl icahn finishing up. but some market-moving comments from carl icahn on herbalife. listen in. >> would you do a tender offer? >> is that a question? >> yeah. did you hear how it ended up? offer? >> i would consider it. i -- don't mean -- my lawyer is sitting out there somewhere. this is not a 13-d thing. because i certainly have not made -- i don't have any stated intention to do it. but there again, it's something i've thought about. doesn't mean i will. but -- and i think there are other people that might. i think herbalife is certainly a candidate to go private. in fact, frankly, where wearing

my shareholder hat, i think herbalife is better off private. >> carl icahn has asked the ftc for rights to buy up to 50% of shares, more than the 35% limit. we're looking at shares of herbalife up around 2% in extended trade. melissa? >> thank you very much. you saw shares moving eyer. is this a trade -- >> i think it's pretty clear he wants to squeeze ackman out of this. i think he's continuing to do that. so, you know, who do you bet with? i would bet with carl? >> who would you bet with, carl or bill? >> both have had some struggles, quite honestly, recently. but in this particular case it seems like carl has the upper hand. huge short in this thing and the squeeze potential right now, i think that's working against him. >> let's get to kelly at the delivering alpha conference with some of the other biggest calls of the day. kate? >> melissa, so jim chanos, noted short seller, had an interesting thesis when you think about the market's reaction. tesla.

he does not like tesla's attempt to purchase solarcity. doesn't like it at all. notes that both companies are cash-strapped. notes in particular that solarcity might have needed a bridge loan in order to help get this deal done and get them to the finish line. it's still under independent review. here's what he had to say in short. >> we know tesla is gearing up with its factory and model 3 production line. but i think what's less obvious is the problem at solarcity. and solarcity is in the business of leasing panels to homeowners. the problem is, if you look at the model, it's just plain uneconomic and has been for a while. >> worth noting and perhaps unsurprising, both stocks were down today, and also the go shop period that solarcity has, 45-day period to go out and find a better offer if they can, expires tomorrow. so perhaps we'll hear an update on what's happening there. moving over to paul singer, elliot management's founder, had a very interesting discussion with kelly evans today.

he was kind of typically characteristically bearish, as he has been about the zero it interest rate policies, central bank actions and many other things, saying among other things recently and today, that we're very much in a brothy bond market. he said in terms of investment recommendations, he doesn't have any particularly obvious ones right now. but he likes gold. he thinks it's underrepresented in many portfolios. listen to him on that. >> in terms of directional assets, i think gold is underrepresented in portfolios as the only money and store value that has stood the test of time. that is under, in my view -- undervalued and underpriced in today's world. >> singer also said that he thought everyone should sell g-7 bonds. he does not like long-term government bonds, not one bit. he thinks that further turmoil could be to come and he doesn't like the level at which this

debt is trading. in some cases, at negative levels, melissa, as we all know. >> all right. kate kelly, thanks so much. so much to cover out of delivering alpha today at cnbc. kay kelly. so in terms of ideas here, a lot were presented. what do you gravitate the most? >> i think the idea of selling g-7 bonds. that to me is most interesting. i would take out the u.s. i think that's a better relative value trade. everything else, without a doubt, is in a bubble. we're in a bond bubble, no question in my mind about that. >> pete? >> the most interesting thing for me was bill miller. always been fairly bullish. but he pointed out a couple areas where he thought, for instance, the airlines. he said these are incredibly cheap, essentially. this is a buy here. we've all thought that for a long period of time. i've been one of them. interesting to hear that when you look at so much devastation in the market over the last couple trading sessions. >> jim chanos, short on tesla, well-known. shorting tesla and solarcity. is that a good deal?

if the deal falls apart, great for the short position, it would be great for tesla. >> tim was arguing last night on the show. in the short term, tesla might bounce. for me the most interesting thing, quickly, was paul singer talking about how gold is underrepresented. i thought that was fascinating. >> all right. let's go around the horn. that time of the show. pete. >> great paper, the stock has been absolutely bludgeoned recently. but lululemon. going higher. >> interesting. >>. >> we saw a reversal in the dollar higher today. didn't really happen in the euro as much. but there were some big moves there. sell eem, strong dollar back. >> dan. >> so we were talking about wells fargo. this probably has some legs. i don't think it impressed wells fargo here. xlf is a better play towards 22 in the next couple months. >> guy. >> well-navigated, melissa lee. >> in the control room. >> the control room, top notch. top notch. you know what else is top notch?

>> what? >> the price action of al abegan today. >> interesting. i'm melissa lee. thank you so much for watching. see you back here tomorrow at 5:00. "mad money" with jim back here. in the meantime, jim cramer with the ceo of wells fargo, up next. >> my mission is simple. to make you money. i'm here to level the playing field for all investors. there's always a and i promise to help you find it. "mad money" starts now. hey, i'm cramer. welcome to "mad money." welcome to kra america. you want it make friends, i'm just trying to make you money. my job is to educate and teach. so call me. or tweet me. @jimcramer. get used to it, folks, we're not in kansas any more. we're in oz. where the markets are really ex