tv Power Lunch CNBC May 5, 2020 2:00pm-3:01pm EDT
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good afternoon welcome back we're in the kitchen once again. our breaking news coverage of the markets begins right now on "power lunch." stocks with a rally. the dow up about 370 points. 356 right now as investors seem to be optimistic about the progress being made in reopening the country to business. you can see that sentiment playing out if crude oil it's up about 20% again today as demand rises and production cuts begin. the balance of supply and demand may be kicking in. the ceo of oil and gas company parsely energy will be along to tell us about his company and how he's doing it. despite the optimism, america is
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drowning in debt as never before ballooning government corporate and even household debt piles have some experts sounding the alarm on a potential debt bomb coming we have more on that in just a minute >> yes we do as you mentioned, energy helping to lead thisrally higher don't look now but the tech sector just turned positive for 2020 let's get to bob for more on the markets. bob. sdp you' >> you're right. who would have thought nnenergy was a break out. yes the green chute story still per va prevails volume is light. there's the s&p near the highs of the day energy, i know you think this is crazy but energy is on the verge of breaking out to the highest levels since the whole thing started falling apart. nice moves up here they look like vs. these charts right now i know that sounds crazy but the
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big story is tech. the technology s&p sector, the largest sector in the s&p just on the verge of turning positive for 2020 i said this many times when you get facebook, apple, amazon and microsoft up about 2% in the day, generally the s&p will be up regardless of what happens to everything today. hospital stocks, tough time. they got killed with everybody stop doing elective procedures the stocks up. they said they are shifting to recovery focus they are resuming elective procedures this is the green chute story that the market is wanting to believe that h is looking over the mountain dupont didn't have great numbers. they talked about april sales toward the second half war better than expected it's not fantastic you see modsest moves up there as well.
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this is the kind of stories the market is wanting to believe for the moment back do you. >> thank you very much are stocks on the ways to the record highs we saw in february. thank you. it's nice to have you back i want to talk about valuations and whether the market is pricing in too much profit or paying pricing in more than really is justified. what do you think? >> we think right here the market is priced to perfection it's pricing in a v shape recovery i think we have to think about the conversation that has suddenly shifted in the country in the last few days
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we learned the great lockdown has not vanquished the virus but states are deciding to live with the virus. what that means is even if we get a second wave, we may not shut the economy down again. if that's the case, we're going to choose to live with the health consequences and also try to restart the economy i think that's what you're seeing, the subtle change in that conversation. >> how vulnerable is the stock market you say it's priced to perfection now if we start to get bad news on the virus or worse news on corporate earnings, what's the down side? >> i say going forward we have to look at what's happening with corporate corporates and consumer behavior there's a risk curve for how individuals choose to reenter the economy as we once knew it
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clearly, that risk curve will dict tats that certain actions are not going to happen whether it's getting on an airplane or restaurants or large stadiums. that is where we're going to see the risk there we talked about this before, there's a solvency risk. while the fed has very clearly helped with the liquidity issue, it's not clear the businesses will survive on the other end and we're talk about small and medium size businesses that employ close to 50% of the u.s. workers. that's what we need to look for. >> right david, let mes bring you in here you have an interesting way of thinking about the market today. you say act one was the strong balance sheet versus the weak. now you say it's the bad economy companies versus the good economy companies or the good
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earnings businesses versus the bad. explain that tell me who is in one category i can only imagine who is in the other. >> all of i.t., literally all of held care. consumer staples and in the other camp, it's energy, financials, industrials. >> there's so many subsets but then there's the hospital operators that i can't imagine are doing well right now you also mention, at least, one retailer that you like which is kind of out of left field and that is tractor supply >> yeah, pit's a stock we have
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owned for a few years now. kind of aninteresting snapshot they're businesses rural almost kind of a stock market metaphor for social distancing they tend to be more rural they're probably not as afraid of going into crowded stores they are doing great on the ecommerce front. they are a stand out which has been a really difficult retail sector and particularly with some of the news in the past 48 hours plus of some of the notable high end retail potential bank rupruptcy names >> i would guess tractor supply is about as far as away as you can get from j crew. thank you very much.
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kelly. thanks america's debt problem is growing. treasury secretary says he will issue an additional $3 trillion in death adding to the goth's high balance of 24 trillion. that's as corporate debt is piling up amid the coronavirus outbreak this could just be the tip of the iceberg. stooe steve has more >> we have to watch debt rising in four different places they are all on their way up the federal government is brothering i borrowing to replace the lost revenue of the the other categories look at the rise in corporate debt corporations have been on a borrowing bing here. this is from intelligence. they compared the -- since the
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pandemic was declared by the w.h.o. through the 27th of april. $265 billion of corporate debt compared to 108 billion in the same time in 2019. part of that because the fed has step forward with a fram in whi -- program in which it will be purchasing debt. all of this has a dramatic effect on the gdp has congress has issued $2.6 trillion of new spending kelly, lots of borrowing and pay back to do down the road >> it's the way of offsetting the loss of business and spending that's happening because they are loading up with debt so they can raise cash to get through the crisis they tend to kind of both of
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these debt piles are growing together that's probably the only way we can keep gdp from shrinking massively as a result. >> that's right. in the last crisis we underestimated the effect of government spending in a crisis. it has a bigger multiplier effect larry summers ran some simulations and said without government spending, deficits would be larger over time because of the fall in the economy and ensuing decline in tax revenue. >> steve, thank you. how do we deal with this growing pile of debt in the u.s. and whab is the way out joining us is the president of the american action forum. we can look again to the example of japan to know it's not necessarily inflationary we can expand government debt a lot more than now. at what point do we worry about next steps and paying it down and all of that? >> well, i think certainly there
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should be no hesitation to continue to borrow to address the needs of the crisis and to support the economy. that's the top priority of the public health mission and the economic support mission we're on track to lose 10% of gdp in the second quarter. there's still a lot to be done to get that back on track. past that, there is a moment in 2023, 4 or 5 when looking forward the federal budget will not only continue to be on an unsustainable trajectory, it will be jumping off of a much higher point because of the b borrowing. you have a sustainable budget. that will require a lot of work on the part of congress. that's the moment when this bill really comes due politically it will be hard to raise revenue, control spending
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and that's been a conversation they've tried to wash for a long time >> there might be some logic to it we learned the whole idea of stabilizing debt, it doesn't really count for anything. it's something people say to make them feel good. >> it does count for something the u.s. isn't close to that moment just because you're not having a crisis doesn't mean you're doing great. you will push this somewhere else whether it's forcing us to borrow more from abroad. sometimes it doesn't show up as inflation but it does show up as financial instablts. there's good reasons not to make this problem worse >> i guess all of those reasons
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probably really start to matter a long, long time from now in growth you got to make sure you don't hurt your income ability in the long run because you're choose things to pay off debt that you would be better off not doing now. >> it's the mirror image of ha steve mentioned. we want to contribute to the growth of the economy because to not is to make the problem much worse. we need to do that right now, no worries about the borrowing. in the future, much more discipline >> i think a lot of it will be dictated by the campaign trail by this current and future
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presidential campaigns do you think this will feature into campaign rhetoric in a real way this will drive voters to turn out or will it be pushed to 2024 and beyond? >> i don't think so. i don't think this is a big conversation piece for november. this isn't like the financial crisis where it was man made and fingers being pointed about who caused the crisis. here, no one caused it every one needs help we're all in this together these federal programs are having the federal government borrow on our behalf and having the government get the money i don't think anyone will run for president promising to balance the budge et cetera t oe future debt. it's a conversation for years past 2020. >> thank you so much we appreciate it
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>> tyler health care, tech leading this oil as dubld over the past week. we'll have more on that staggering move as we head into the close of that commodity. breaking up is hard to do and wework co-founder adam neumann isn't take it so well. he's pulling softbank for pulling out of part of its rescue package for the troubled start up more "power lunch" coming right back at you.
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something beautiful is how we communicate if i have something i need to change or talk about, or he has something we need to talk about we prefer face-to-face meetings. it's real partnership. i see musk as the best high growth investor in the world i'm pleased he chose to invest in us. >> that is wework co-funder and former ceo adam neumann in january of 2009. fast forward to this week and thest a totally different story. neumann is suing softbank over an abandoned 3 billion dollar
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buyout what chance do you think neumann has of succeeding? >> softbank think they have a good chance. he's alleging they sabotaged this deal. their financial position has gotten much more precarious in the last few minuonths. they have taken steps to undermine this deal. it could be a long battle for a while. i think the court will decide this >> would it be a big financial setback for softbank at a time they are reeling from a number of investments >> if they had to pay it, for sure it raises a lot of questions about softbank's ultimate commitment they said they would pay this $3
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billion. there's debt that's going to give to wework they have a lot of question marks around their financing even more so wework has huge financial questions around them right now. the future of wework, this money, much of it is going to adam neumann and employees and early inverss. it does raise the question of how much money will they give wework when they need it >> is wework facing an existential threat can it make it through this crisis we're facing now and what is the crippling effect on softbank how damaged are they as they come out of this >> this has always been the big question for wework before the implosi implosion, before the position it's in right now. can its business model survivor
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a recession? the idea of taking these long term leases and renting them out on shortser terms. a lot of your customers are backing away from the short term commitmen commitments. the next year will be critical as for softbank, i think maureen brought up a really good point how long can it afford to have these battles with portfolio companies in the vision fund that has taken a number of hits. it's not just wework a will the of the companies that he has made large bets on like uber have been struggling long
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before this. remember it has alibaba and a number of assets but reputationally i think that he continue to take hits. the longer this battle goes on, his reputation continues to be further tarnished. >> maureen, same question. what do you think regardless of the financial impact this implies for its investments going forward? >> i think it does raise big questions. there was a pressure for people in every category to take the money. now it's almost the opposite i think there will be a lot of fear of taking their money going
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forward. it's now fighting to see if they can get paid as promised >> found r friendly, i know probably going to seem quaint after this thanks tyler. still ahead, the race for a cure for coronavirus is on as pfizer begins human trials of a vacci vaccine. we'll bring you those details. norweigan cruise line sinking 20% as it warns of bank rup rupt si. wasting time. that's why td ameritrade designed a first-of-its-kind, personalized education center. their award-winning content is tailored to fit your investing
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welcome back let's go to sue for a quick update >> new jersey is reporting another 334 deaths since yesterday. the highest daily death toll in the nation governor fill murphy says he understands that people want the state to reopen but says it cannot be done prematurely >> with all due respect, this the the fight of our lives nobody is itching more to get this state back up and running than the team up here. we got to do it right. we got to do it safely and we are committed to that whether you like that or not jet blue and spirit have gotten government approval to halt some flights through the end of september jet blue can suspend service to
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16 cities including atlanta, chicago and dallas spirit can halt flight to six airports including those in phoenix, denver and seattle. in guatemalan, more sailors that had been quarantined are returning to the aircraft carrier. some 4,000 spent a month in isolation following an out break on ford their ship that affected nearly 1,000 crew members. as always, you can get more on our coronavirus coverage by heading over to cnbc.com ty, back to you. >> thank you so much pfizer beginning human trials for a possible coronavirus vaccine and megahas the details for us hi, meg. >> pfizer started first human tria
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trials they began their trial in germany last month now they have quite a lot of vaccine manufacturing capacity as well. they are saying they hope to be able to manufacture millions of dose of this vaccine this year hundreds of millions of doses in 2021 here is a time line of the ones that have already entered trials sort of toward the left and then those who have given dates of when they plan to be in human testing as well. quite a lot of vaccine projects in the clinic and talks on being ready for some groups.
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that would shatter all historical records >> thank you very much cnbc virtual summit on health care is coming up next tuesday, may 12th you can find out more about it at cnbc.com/healthyreturns now let's go to seema mody. >> we're watching norweigan cruise line warning it can't predict if any of its ships will sail again this as it has $2 billion of debt if equity let's discuss with our team. we have known the cruise lines have been under distress and need to address liquidity concerns why is the stock down 20% on news of this capital raise
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>> for me, personally, i think the cruise liners are the ones that will get hurt the worst out of this. cruise ships are a floating petpet petri dish i don't think they will come back soon. they are most likely going to head towards bank rupruptcy and their stock price could head down to 5 and even $0. >> the cruise lines are trying to address those concerns. it seems like norweigan will pay a high price to get investors on board. what's the take away for equity investors? >> that's a high coupon to be paid the last time we saw this wa carnival cruise. they paid a haiku upigh coupon l the stock got hit hard at the beginning of april when the bond sale went low for carnival, the stock started to rally a bit.
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this 20% decline in norweigan might provide a very short opportunity for the stock to bounce a bit i think it will be a short livered and i agree with danielle here. you look at the charts on carnival cruise and morweigan, their charts are curling back eefr at over at a much lower level than the beginning of the year. if they do bounce, you don't want to be chasing you might be look to short them again. >> got it. that bond deal prices this afternoon for norweigan. thank you for joining us for more trading nation, head to our website or follow us on twitter. back to you. thanks still ahead, we'll sit down with one of the youngest ceos. he'll be here to explain how he's beenshaking things up
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members to expect this effort to wind down in the near future senior administration official tells me the group has already been meeting with less frequency with those meetings taking place every other day or so compared to every day as they had been taking place in the most recent months leading up to this moment kelly, this news comes amid many states having case counts and hospitalization counts that have not started decreasing yet but as the federal government's effort goes, this perhaps communicates a feeling on half of the white house they have stood up many of these efforts and that the group itself doesn't need to meet with quite as much frequency. >> any explanation as to why >> reporter: perhaps it's just that if they feel that there are hospitals and states that needed ventilators that now have them if they have instructed successfully the private sector to produce more of this personal
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protective equipment if they feel the efforts are at the level they need to be now, perhaps they don't need to meet as often remember the coronavirus task force met every day to inform the white house's daily briefing on this topic. that isn't happening every day, you have dr. fauci said he wishes he could do just the material job of being a doctor and dealing with the data and meetings then perhaps that's behind this as well. >> interesting thanks there aren't many calling it a come back just yet but we are seeing a continuation of that near term move higher for w.t.i. or u.s. based west texas intermediate oil prices. there's about 24 half. world benchmark crude prices hoverering around 31
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$31 per barrel the up side is a mix of certain factors. you have optimism over the easing restrictions. you have production cuts that are already in progress or planned in the coming weeks giving the recent slide in oil prices here in the united states we have data from the energy department showing a drop in production all be it from record high levels. we'll get more inventory from the american petroleum institute. you've got official energy data out tomorrow 10:30 a.m. eastern time i'll send things back over the you. >> thank you very must have. we appreciate it the shares of parsley energy stocks higher today. it's continuing a furious rally up 90% or thereabouts since back on march 20th. parsley also did something odd it krien increased its quarterl
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dividend the drrceo has been pushing texs to slash output for the first time in decades. welcome back to cnbc it's good to see you your numbers were good on the bots tom line. hea revenue was down you beginning to see first sign offensesign of a demand rebound at all many. >> i think a rebound might be a strong word. i do believe we have definitely seen a demand bottom here in texas we're getting back to open up the economy slowly but surely you're seeing a rebound from that very low bottom >> right now west texas intermediate is at $24 a barrel.
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if oil stays in that range of say 22 to 3 32, what does that mean for your company and more broadly, the industry in which you're a player? >> sure. the industry is definitely not out of the woods yet even a recovery to the mid-20s is not sufficient for the that majority of operators to continue on in is a healthy level for us. we increased our free cash flow on the year. our target from 300 million to 250 million even in this face of this massive pull back in pricing. the industry will need to see pricing north of $30 to maintain production flat into 2021. >> matt, it's kelly here back in the studio i'm curious about the value of your hedges and whether that's playing a role and what you're able to do with the dividend in sfl >> it's a tremendous asset for
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us no doubt it gives us comfort that this dividend is safe for long time. >> it was a super clairvoyant move on your point what happens now it sounds like as of yesterday that ryan who was pushing for some prorating or quota, they have abandoned that. what would you like the see happen now >> you're going to see every company make their own decision. it's simple logic when you have global demand down between 20 and 30%. everybody should do their part in the near term to help balance these markets in a time of pandemic i think you'll see shut ins from 10 to 40 to 60% depending on the
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oerp operator we will see markets balance over the next couple of months. >> how much production have you taken offline and how much do you anticipate taking offline? i assume you're not spending on new construction or new wells at all. >> that's right. these projects are about $60 million a pop. until we see clear visibility t that $30 pricing, we're holding back on new capital projects >> let's come back to the idea that oil stays in this neighborhood for the next 10 months or so the weak go away the crippled limp through. what happens >> it's going to be a lot of bandages and a lot of triage
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going on across the industry if that's the case. we said it before, there's about six companies that can pay off their debt parsley being one of them through the producing wells only they would have a positive return on their projects to be able to pay off their debt in full past years. >> thank you very much for your time we hope we can have you back soon up next, a key question as businesses reopen. are they legally responsible if someone gets sick? stocks rallying today. younitised health, apple, home depot are the biggest contributors we'll be right back. ♪i'm always walking to the same old place♪
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commission free today. welcome back as businesses start to reopen, one big question remains can they be held legally responsible if someone gets sick congress is grappling with that issue and elon has the story >> business groups want congress to step in because the standards of the states are literally and figuratively all over the map.
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some are starting to grapple with this question in utah the governor signed a law that would raise the bar for lawsuits related to exposure as a state begins to loosen its lockdown north carolina passed a similar bill that's aimed at essential businesses and in mississippi, the governor there, wants his legislateture to look at this later this month supporters of this movement including the u.s. chamber of commerce say there's pres decedt 20 states had increased legal protections for health care workers and hospitals. it's happening in red and in blue states. the chamber is out with a new poll today showing there's broad bipartisan support for extending those protections to a wider swath of businesses. on capitol hill, democrats say it's not the companies that need protecting it's the workers they are pushing for a worker bill of rights to cover those worried about returning to an unsafe environment guys >> yeah, ylan, it's a thorny
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one. the language we have to watch closely but this afternoon it sounds like they are trying to figure out way to perfectly craft it >> reporter: right it seems like there could be some common sense provisions that both sides can agree on i think the challenge is that initially, perhaps, some of the business groups were asking for too much there's a lot of different laws that could apply including on privacy, notification for layoffs. should those be included should this be limited to exposure i think you'll hear business talk about they want know what steps they should be taking in order to ensure that workers are safe they want to see that codified into law so there's no question about it >> t going to have a huge impact on the pace of reopening in this amount we see. sorry, tyler go ahead >> not at all. there's no such thing as a free lunch, everybody knows or free money from the government. exploring the hidden cost of the
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paycheck protection program. we'll talk to the ceo in about the challenges his business is facing how long will it be before they can hold a live concert event again. stay witus to connect really matters. to keep customers and employees in the know. to keep business moving. comcast business is prepared for times like these. powered by the nation's largest gig-speed network. to help give you the speed, reliability, and security you need. tools to manage your business from any device, anywhere. and a team of experts - here for you 24/7. we've always believed in the power of working together. that's why, when every connection counts... you can count on us.
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this virus is testing all of us. and it's testing the people on the front lines of this fight most of all. so abbott is getting new tests into their hands, delivering the critical results they need. and until this fight is over, we...will...never...quit. because they never quit. welcome back and wait until you hear this. business owners who take money from the government and receive grants may have to pay taxes on that money just one line of fine print in the paycheck protection program and is causing a lot of headaches now. kate >> we've got good news and bad news for small business owners we'll start with the good new us the department of treasury
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updated guidance on rehiring as enhanced unemployment may complicate the process for small businesses the guidance says that to qualify for loan forgiveness, borrowers must have made a quote good faith of rehire then the worker's rejection of the may be documented the other guidance is really frustrating small business owners expenses related to r forgivable loans through ppp won't be tax deductible business owners we've spoken to say they've made plans around these loans and didn't realize they'd be taxed. some say this was advertised as a grant and that's not the case. the latest stats show that 2.2 million loans have been made for a total of $175 billion. the average loan size is coming down now it's $79,000 which the administration says the aid is reaching smaller businesses this time around. but new data from the nfib shows about 60% say they've received loans.
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40% say they're still waiting and more than half of those still waiting have gotten some notice the loan is approved like an e tran number from their lender back to you. >> all right i'll pick it up. thank you very much. my next guest is the ceo of the number one ticket concert selling theatre in new jersey. while his business received a ppp loan, he's expecting a $25 million hit over the next 18 months because of coronavirus. for more, let's welcome in adam phillips president and ceo of the count basey center for the arts in red bank, new jersey good to have yu here f i was in red bank weekend before last and walked by your venue it was very nice, but i have to say that red bank, which is usually a bustling town, was pretty quiet >> yeah, well first of all, thanks for having me red bank has been very quiet and you know one of the reasons why we've been out there making it
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heard and known that a robust recovery in our town reopening really requires anchor venue like the center for the arts >> because when you attract a crowd, that has ripple effects throughout the whole town. restaurants are fuller retail establishments are doing business parking revenue. all kinds of things that spin off your concerts and performances hupg can this $787,000 ppp loan carry you? >> not for long. maybe it's two months. you know, i mean back when we applied and got it of course we're very grateful we did get it, june seemed like a year away and now junecorner quy we're hear ng the industry if we're lucky, perhaps a september opening. there's talk it could be as late
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as january of next year. and you know obviously each map that we have for ourselves is is more devastating than the next our job now is to try to increase our runway. but $787,000 is not going to get us very r far. >> forgive me for not knowing the answer to this how much of your annual revenues comes from philanthropy? >> you know, we probably do about, we're quite lucky to say that about 75 to 80% of revenue is from our concerts and classes and things like that and then being non-profit, the proceeds, the extra that we have, the surplus goes for rainy day funds which we've blown through all of it in the last three months. and also goes to support our education because our mission is to inspire, to educate and to entertain. we certainly have been able to inspire and education, but we
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have not been able to do our entertaining so much except for putting some things online >> can you survive if you can't hold a concert or an appearance until january? >> you know, survival is not look great for us. in fact, it doesn't look great for the entire arts sector we have not made a dollar since march 12th so the losses are astounding and you know we try to build our runway as long as we can but u unless there's going to be some sort of a reinvestment in the entire arts sector, you know you're going to see theatres and not for profit organizations closing left and right and resuming some semblance of normalcy of our lives will be impossible to do because people are going to crave to be together of course when it's safe the airline industry for
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domestic airlines was given $62 billion. the r arts industry was 75 million of which 25 million went to the kennedy centerment tha just those kind of numbers aren't going to taken a sector that is critical for the resemblance of our lives >> well adam, we thank you very much little known about new jersey is it is full of wonderful towns of the size of red bank and red bank is sure one of them we wish you the best and a a speedy comeback. president and ceo of the count basey center for the arts in a wonderful town of red bank and for the latest on small business news, advice and resources, go to cnbc.com. we're going to final check on the markets after this i know that every single
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shl for everybody in the consumer and experience economy. >> it's really true. one of the questions i didn't ask was how u is it ling goipg to look? are people going to sit next to each other it's going to be a different eck appearance when they do reopen, kelly. >> it is >> thanks for watching our breaking news coverage and we continue now into the last hour of trading with the closing b l bell >> thaupg, tyler and kelly and welcome, everyone. stocks are surging 59 minutes left of trade. more states and countries around the world are moving forward with reoping plans despite wide variations in how successfully they've slowed the progress of the disease. the recovery in oil prices is helping lift battereded energy stocks and the services sector fell into contraction for the first time in a decade but u that plunge came in better than expectation. >> we are surging, up 1.9% on the s&
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