relationship and a nice touch between the two. but maybe, most likely not enough to really get over the conflict >> always appreciate it. that's going do it for us on squawk on the street on a tough day on the street. thank you for joining us tech check starts now. >> good friday morning welcome to tech check. today, buy now, pay later gets a lot of affirmation in the clouds, finally we have some new hardware to discuss as

facebook and amazon rolls out some new products on glasses and tv throughout the hour, we'll reflect on what that meant and a few issues related to cyber security and defense john, and an important day to do that we are going to start with a stock people are definitely buying now buy now, pay later company affirm surging up 25 plus percent after the company reported 71% growth along strong guidance that doesn't factor in any contribution from the company's partnership with amazon at or near the jump of the people using the service an increase of almost 2 million.

the stocks up almost 70% off the highs hit in february. across those high tech stocks that are surpassing or nearing those february levels. not just bikes or peloton. outside of peloton, they grew 178% versus just doubling in the prior quarter. that's part of the reason why a lot of investors are like, it is mostly bikes are like, well, it is more than that. >> getting a lot of attention there. i do want to point out this report from credit karma with interesting data 44% of adults have used these services

there is incredible opportunity to expand. i would think there would be a concern about the fact that a third of u.s. users have fallen behind on one or more payments on 72% of these buy now services said their credit score declined i do expect this service to see massive growth in partnership with amazon. could there be limits to its growth because there are risks to credit? >> i'll talk about that this morning with jim on the 9:00 a.m. the firm has worked through a couple of different walls of worry. one was gender identification and loss prevention. what is the response from legacy credit card companies as it does appear at least now, buy now, pay later is doing real disruption to the classic credit card space >> for sure. the traditional credit card

companies would have to give up a lot. i might argue, that it is good people's credit scores were impacted you've been tweeting on the coin base thing and other companies in the crypto space with the high yields on accounts that aren't quite savings accounts. how much of this is technology is real versus fintech snake oil? >> thanks for having me, there is a lot to unpack here. an exceptional product founder, so there is no surprise by anybody in the technology industry that he would build a category leading exceptional

product and people really loving the product. 70 million users must not be wrong that he built this and it is not a fluk. they system atticly worked through it who is using thisproduct is a question why are they using it? what shouldn't be using this product or they don't have the money and this is incentivizing. obviously retailers like to get those sales and mortgage lenders like to get those. tons of reasons to be concerned. i would like at what other cards are they going to turnover this is a product-led founder in tech and is a product

revolutionary. ruling out loyalty incentives with a credit card and membership i use a credit card but mostly for that i pay it off mostly every month. once that comes in, this could be significant chunk of it >> you get those offers with buy a new laptop i can afford the laptop. i don't know why you are asking me this. this concept is capturing the imaginations of not just consumers but those of the companies like apple this will become a standard. it is veryhard to create a standard in technology we'll see where he takes it. there is a lot of product

extensions they can add to this. you mention coin base adding an alone product those wealth fronts going out there and adding savings or roths or margin loans. you want to make sure you have guard rails. the sec with coin base is exceptionally concerned about crypto systematic risk they are asking people to pump the brakes for every good actor in the space, circle, making their coin, you've got these other rouge marketplaces they are not domiciled anywhere. those people with large groups of money, what could go wrong?

>> you raise so many interesting topics here. with what you've raised, coin base has responded to the sec. what do you an tas pate to become of that what do you think will indicate for the industry and could it end up benefitting those players? >> deciding when the sec sent them notices without giving you exactly what's going on. they've done a lot of document requests you give them the benefit of the doubt that they are acting in the best interest of consumers trying to avoid a black swan event.

i think the sec is a very strong group of people. he didn't. that's a bold stance to take if your business is a financial business that needs to work with them to the point that they could give some additional clarity but there is a fine line these equipment owe people want no rules they want to claim that regulators are being too hard on them a lot of the crypto people don't want to pay taxes. they understand you have to pay taxes on trade unsophisticated when it came paying their taxes that has to go up at this level of scale

that is sort of entertaining >> so much consolidation that travel one stop shop. what will we see next? greater consolidation those are all starting to come to the position like amazon web services or a complete platform like google or operating system for all financial products for robin hood to start with crypto, everybody will add savings accounts taking loans out against your crypto or borrowing against it

like productivity software everybody will have a slack competitor or a zoom competitor built in there will be best in class apps but this will turn into a suite of products. it means michael soft had a strangle hold. google launches google docs and makes it 10% of the price. you'll see this vibrant marketplace where steady hand and innovation and products and consumers are all in it will be a dogfight you'll see apple, google facebook, maybe one or two of them say, this will be a critical part of our future if

the regulators allow it, we might see some regulated m&a activity >> the guard rails hold. assuming that they do, you are removing so much friction in the flow of money in spending. imagining that level of consumer and economic growth. removing this friction where we see it all the time. the ability to find a place to stay for an object you think about what idea did consumers embrace the most it was give me whatever you want to buy on the generation and it was

for that simple idea let me control my money. don't screw me on the fees don't nickel and dime me that is a trend we are seeing in the gig economy. i think it will be a trend of post pandemic, if we ever get out of this thing, people please get your vaccines. it is a charged topic. we have had a group of people who have reassessed things who said, i'm going to retire early. or i'm going to start my own company. i have all these tools just open a new tab and register a domain name all of this with consumers and americans are voting for when they go work at uber, lyft,

doordash or start their own company overgoing to do shift work has resulted in a come zags in freedom and joy for americans that learny sanders and elizabeth warren with the demand have been far zeeded by what their offering bezos and amazon just offered people their bachelor's degree they are demanding the government pay for college and they are offering it the market works >> the market works. give us your view as a prom nnt angel investor in this kind of covid period we are still in

focusing on growth and what he said about the environment right now. >> march of this year where they said okay, we are coming out of it i would say that fog has descended on to the road we are probably in the midst of more indecision now than a month or a year ago. today, we are kind of stuck in the middle >> what is the environment you are seeing for innovation? >> you seeing that same fog? >> there is a certain type of fear in this than 9/11 those were acute events.

this was a drawn out, long, debatable one. the majority of tech and software companies benefit from this not that they want to but people are in front of computers more you take out commutes and give them better computers and force them to adopt the technology those tech companies that embrace the work is phenomenal those for midible offices. they are up and working. they are highly talented they are moving company to company. you lose culture and add velocity and talent. >> people are like, we lost vp of whatever but we have more candidates they change a tab and they are back to work that level of efficiency has

never existed before seeing two things. inspiring and disturbing the companies that are working, ee fish sen is crazy they've improved 20, 40% more productive on salary and office space. workers are happier. winners are moving faster and faster with more challenge then i'm seeing a lot of new money dumb money comes in. they say, you know what, we see these company's ipo. we see what happens sometimes that works out but what i'm seeing is really disturbing. what we are seeing with

elizabeth holmes at scale. there is 10 of those it is not going to be like a deranged elizabethholmes sococi pajs >> that's why we need business journalism >> and governance. there for a reason >> jason, always great to have you. >> great to have you good to be with you. z scalers in the green after what some are calling another jaw dropping quarter we'll break down the numbers with the ceo later this hour tech check is just getting started.

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being used in suicide attacks. today, they worry the same failure of imagination again this time, in retired security i talked to the former head of nati national security agency >> the only limits in cyber is the limit of imagination there is almost no limit to what can you do >> he said he worries the hacks we've seen could come close to attacks critical everyone to charge an adversary could time an attack for the most damage or even cripple our ability to respond to each one. he worries about more insidious attacks where the target is american society itself. >> how could you increase the pressure on our society.

what could i do to limit medical care, vaccine production what could i do to exacerbate economic inequality and for stall economic recovery in the middle of this economic challenge we've had in the middle of the pandemic >> rogers told me the january 6 insurrection shows we are vulnerable as never before as plans to stoke violence among americans. the key is prevention and resiliency bad things can happen. the ability to an shosh shocks and keep moving forward. >> our colleague was asked how 9/11 changed her career. she said it was a moment she realized you had to think about the unthinkable and make that

envelop of possibilities bigger. a lot of discussion has been about the country's ability to rebuild after things like 9/11, the pandemic and even january 6. >> right when talking about resilience, he's talking about absorbing these and keep going and to see them coming in the first place you have to have the intelligence out there, the defense. ultimately, you can't think of everything that could go wrong in the world he worries when people try to do that, they see an enemy around every corner he does not think that's where america needs to go. there is a way to do this and not to do it, carl >> thank you you will continue to see more 9/11 coverage throughout the day and don't miss tonight, america remembers, 20 years later. a special edition with shepard

smith live from the memorial coming up, a look at the defense tech industry. known for founding occulous and selling it to facebook in honor of telling the story of those there that day, here is peter giacchi. >> you were paralyzed at that moment i remember that feeling of feeling completely helpless when the first building came down, that smoke was on us so quick, you get the feeling of fear and what do i do. you think to yourself how easily that could have been you the thing that sticks with me the most was that feeling of mortality that day of just how easily life changed for so many

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breaking news crossing on the epic antitrust lawsuit against apple. shares dipping around 1% or 2% epic on all counts except one. reading through the opinions that are some what short and include a counter claim. do you have reactions? >> i do. one point apple did not win is a key one. it involves the court saying developers are now going to be able to direct customers to other payment systems outside of apple's app store and they'll be able to communicate with their customers without being restricted by apple.

apple, officer's and agents and et cetera are permanently restrained from keeping developers of including in their apps and links, calls to action to direct customers purchasing in addition. in other words apple can't keep customers from sending others and communicating through points of contact obtained from customers through account through the app. this would be a big change to the app store and how they charge and have their own community and the court saying you have to have developers to add payment mechanisms and other

pieces of communication. >> that's exactly the reason we see the stock down by 2.5% i do want to note that judge ruled in favor of apple on all counts except what josh outlined and epic will have to pay $12 million of damages to apple. revenue collected in that period in which it was able to collect payments on fortnite the reason the stock is down now is the one issue the judge ruled on that's in the cracks of the seat cushions what i think is so important here we've reached out to apple and epic this is going to be a really crucial turning point for the

way apple operations its whole system it all comes as south korea issuing this ruling. this is exactly the crucial thing here and what it is going to be for apple's future, you think. >> what we saw out of south korea and japan. this gets right to the core of the issue which is how much agency do developers have for better terms and how much leeway do they have to develop and direct them to other means of navigating and acquiring other products other than through the app store. saying apple is allowed to say you've got to offer our method

there within our store but also saying you've got to allow them to offer other methods as well this is a big shift of a business model for a lot of developers most of the economy is now relying at least in part on stores and distribution like this >> it is clearly a material for developers i will add that the street has been on guard for something like this morgan stanley said, look, there have been a lot of headlines about the app store. we estimate the effect to apple is at maybe 1 to 2% or negligible it remains to be seen. there may be some impact between apple's models and developers'

models >> if you look at the fact that this is a permanent injunction, it is a set back to apple's model. try to envision on this being apple's services selling those gadgets, using the app store as part of the eco system >> if you look at this ruling, it shows a hint of key arguments in terms of antitrust concerns all clearly laid out there that happenle should not be able to control the walled garden. that was being challenged in different parts of the wall and crumbling to different parts of the world. this is the biggest blow dealt to apple yet >> we are seeing spikes in electronic arts, activision and

others apple, itself, it's a very small percentage of its revenue dependent on this particular mechanism in the app store apple has the iphone, the mac, the integration. le loyalty of the customers using those. they had ways that they could charge and collect the value outside of this one app store mechanism. you were talking about that, saying this had a big impact on some major players that did business on the app store even if it didn't have a huge impact based on its revenue and profit model. >> just want to point out some of these stocks on the move. spotify shares up over 2%. match group shares up 2.5%

those are both companies that had their interest aligned with epic in this case. it is interesting to see how some of these other companies that have been paying that tax, if you will, that apple will be reacting to this news. >> let's not lose sight of the fact that we are days from another product launch joanna told us earlier maybe a little opacitiy in terms of what we'll hear it will be interesting to see whether over the next several days, these trades on headlines or others that have driven cycles in the past >>ly also take a -- i will also take a look at alphabet. unlike apple with integrated

hardware and software. so much of what alphabet is doing is based on those digital transactions or the advertising on top of those models one might assume what is good for t for the goose is the judge is applying this to the apple app store, others will have to play the same way the eco systems are strong >> let's bring in nilay. the larger question is whether it is a major loss for apple itself >> i think it is the app store revenue model is the driver i think fundamentally, apple has a huge opportunity to monday

ties other parts of the app store. if it spurs them to do that, it will be a win in the long term business. >> what do you think the implications are for google in the play store and recently on the level of control that google has been able to exercise there. a big moment for the gaming industry there are so many game application measures this strikes me as a big light to accelerate. on the gaming front, specifically the funny thought of this trial was the back and forth trying to decide what a game was or whether roblox was a game or a metaverse. this order is a sweeping win for

apple. epic won where it mattered the third-party payment options. what's a game in the game industry can they do commerce inside the game there are still questions on the apple platform on the google front, what is different, is that google runs a platform with contracts with third parties. they use their leverage inside of that industry against handset makers and carriers. that is a little different saying we make those play by our rules. you might find in that case is the judge not only rules anti-steering and they have been acting like eama monopoly and hw

that might be managed in the future >> what it sounds like, you are saying what i was trying to say. you have better authority. saying if this is bad for apple, it is probably bad for google too. it might be even worse given everything else they are up against. >> simple thing is, how does apple retain control over the phone and ios? you just maintain. it is nonsensical. how does google maintain control over android they do that with what looks like monopoly control. the payments have paper trails

pressure to make sure it comes out in their favor that paper trail and pressure might break worse for dulgoogle the long run >> interesting apple could certainly appeal the parts of this ruling how do you expect that to move forward and how do you expect their behavior to change in the interim? >> i'm a veteran of the apple and google versus oracle i've been covering those cases for a decade this is all going to get appealed apple will almost certainly request a stay of this order they've already bent on this rule because of the japanese case, the jftc issue certain types of app reflect the ruling in certain ways i do expect apple to appeal and

get a stay on this injunction. i would assume epic will appeal. they lost on a lieutenant of accounts here. i expect both sides to appeal the decision we'll see what happens next. >> interesting i'm glad we had you there today. with he see apple down 2%. a decline you don't see that often but only back to a 10-day low. >> some of the factors we've been discussing about the relative impact and to continue talking about that let's bring in a veteran of apple watching and analysis gene munster this represents a procedural loss for apple it seems to me, apple loves certainty and it already has been thinking of ways to shift in case something like this happens. is this a major strategic flow

or opportunity for more innovation on apple's side >> i think the latter. i want to frame in what the blow looks like and maybe from the highest level and think about the app store conversation first, the steering component we are talking about today relative to the piece apple lost at epic. the second piece the ability for third party app stores to be allowed on ios to allow app developers to sell around the pay wall that was not talked about. the third is the take rate the take rate, which is 15 and 30%. that's what this comes down to i don't think that would be touched other the next several years. i'm probably the minority in that group but i want to talk about the impact and what that

is the ability for app publishers to steer those to have a direct payment relationship is the head wind to the app store. the reason i think it is only a fractional head wind is for a typical consumer, the ability to manage prescriptions and security around it i ultimately bet on humans being lazy if the price is the same, they will likely continue to transact on the platform versus take the lead from the steering inquiry. an app developer could say, we'll give you a big discount if you come direct to us. instead of the 30%, we'll share

15% with you there is something they get for accessing 15 million customers the question isn't whether the take rate should go to zero. there is a number all app developers would be comfortable with all of this together is noise. the reason stock is down, is it shows this is the third time in a month apple has effectively given up or lost a little something. they've won some things but lost some things too. investors want to sleep well at night but it begs the other questions. what happens with the need of app store on ios and the take rate those will be relevant to the apple conversation the next couple of years. >> the times leads with this quote, the court cannot ultimately conclude that apple is a monopoly.

josh, let's bring you into the next as well maybe that reflects the fact that historically, at least, apple's wins are comparatively unilateral >> having to find the market as the gaming transactions and evaluating the conduct whether apple is a monopoly. at 55%, extraordinarily high these do not show antitrust conducts and that apple is engaging in the conduct and the anti-steering provisions for

consumers and the legal choice it is so interesting because the app store has been under pressure you have seen apple making these adjustments and changes. a few we've touched on tech check. having these media apps. netflix and spotify. offering these in the link so that developers can offer those directly through email the decision is interesting because it is not what these want to see. they want the third party app store. this is the first round of appeal and why this probably goes on for years in the courts,

guys >> really notable in the way it attacks and is operating i want to bring in john gruber how potentially impactful could this be for apple? >> i think it is still unclear to me what could happen in apps if this injunction takes place or not what is clear is the anti-steering provisions that apple stuck to you can't tell people to go to netflix.com and sign up on the web. that's done and they'll be allowed to do that very unclear to me what it means for games and will games be able to sell directly through that app, which is what epic brought

the suit to be able to do. it is a big difference to me in how it affects apple >> john, the notion that gene brought up sort of relying on the friction in terms of managing all of your accounts. >> i think it is an under talked about aspect of the consumer advantage of usage of apple's current system everything you signed up for in any app that is a subscription you can cancel is all available in the settings app. very easy to find. very easy to unsubscribe i think the overlooked thing is that it makes people more comfortable to subscribe if you have to sign up for every

subscription on the web and if you have 10, manage 10 different user names and passwords and websites and renewal i think it is a real factor. >> thank you for that perspective. it seems to me that either way no matter what this does or doesn't mean for game developers in the short term, it is an enormous opportunity for stripe which is not public yet. we think about what are the payment platforms people might use outside of directly dealing with apple's in app purchase and app store mechanism. that is kind of what stripe does is, you know, reduce friction in digital payments, for pay pahl, other companies we've been talking about so much can they be more convenient than apple and offer developers and apps more control i think is going to be a key question. >> yes

interesting, john, as we watched the shares now down closer to 3% rather than 2%, which is again larger than historical drop for apple on a given day by the way, approaching now the 50-day moving average which has not been below since june or so. i do wonder from a legal strategy, historically they've been able to husband their resources and strangle a lot of opponents just through time and keeping these things they have obviously a huge amount of legal endurance. how much might that come into play if you are talking about developers obviously much, much smaller? josh, i'll throw that one to you. >> i'm sorry could you repeat that? >> the ability to string this thing out as long as possible, how much of a tactical advantage might that be? >> listen, i think apple has shown they'll be willing to make certain adjustments and changes. we've seen that already. they are reacting and making different shifts to their policies the big one here that we're seeing is the antisteering

policy i don't know how consumers ultimately react to that even if you give consumers the ability they are to look for alternative payment systems how many people actually take advantage of that, there is a certain ease and convenience of paying in the app toward what people have gotten used to another key piece here and maybe this gets to your question, maybe you can weight it out, i think it will also be interesting to see how lawmakers and regulators react some on the street were saying they were watching closely because they saw some type of possible response, relationship with regulators in d.c they thought those government attorneys and lawyers and regulators would be watching this judge's decision and sort of seeing, well listen, if we were going to bring a possible antitrust case does this make us more or less willing to do so now that they have this decision, see how this very well regarded judge has reacted >> well, josh, just to follow up, do you think this lays out a bigger antitrust case for washington for capitol hill here how do you think this could play in to all of these bills now

being considered to regulate not just apple but other tech giants >> i think as an investor you've seen a lot of hot talk for years now. you have gotten used to a lot more scrutiny on capitol hill from lawmakers and have seen what is being talked about discussed and debated, what's being proposed as an investor you going to want to see what is actually passed i don't think as an investor the antisteering was front and center as gene munster was just talking about you want to see what is proposed and passed when it comes to take rates, what happens with third-party app stores and payment systems in the apps we have to see what is passed there on capitol hill. >> josh, glad you were there today to help us understand. we'll continue the conversation. shares now down about 3.3% stick around and we'll take a break. josh gruber, markets meantime down 130 having a race, a gain of 225 points.

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john gruber still with us to talk about this apple epic ruling john, i want to go back to

monopoly issue because i don't think we've given it enough attention. it is important here that the court says apple is not a monopoly under federal or state law here and definitions though it is engaging in anticompetitive conduct under california's competition laws. that does take some air out of the sails of those who have been attackingapple calling it a monopolist the court says it is not >> i agree and the more i read this the more i think it really jibes completely with the announcement apple and the japan fair crate commission announced last week which also the japan fair trade commission said they didn't find any mondaylyist behavior -- monopolist behavior with apple and also the agreement with the jtc i think that what is ordered today is saying the same that apps must be allowed to link to

external websites and be able to tell users within the app that they can do so and perhaps, you know, save money by doing so >> yeah. >> it is actually these -- so i think the initial investor reaction is an over reaction because my quick reading of this is that this is no different than what apple sort of preemptively announced last week >> the payment fees do seem to be a little different but we'll continue to track whether there is a significant change here john gruber, thank you >> john, let's bring in steve kovac tech editor at krcnbc.com i'm most interested in the impact on apple eps, the wall in general, or the discussion that goes beyond apple. >> let's talk about eps. while we don't know the exact

margins for what apple makes on the app store we have a ballpark figure that the revenue is $64 billion. there have been numbers floating all over the place like the margins are like 70% or insane numbers like that. so i think that is what people are looking at and why we are seeing shares down 3%, 4%, last time i looked. >> just a quick question, steve, looking at the rest of the ecosystem here and the potential implications we're seeing the stock, the match, and road blocks, other game companies, spotify, up significantly on this news how do you see it as playing out for all of the companies that distribute through apple >> i am shocked my inbox is not full of cheers from spotify and match. usually as soon as one of these rulings come out over the last few weeks they are just so happy. and until now the thing was, hey. they haven't gone far enough this is getting really close to what the spotifies and matches of the world want. >> appreciate that very much

as our piece on cnbc.com points out, part of the testimony, judge rogers said it doesn't seem to me you feel any pressure or competition to actually change the manner in which you act to address the concerns of developers you could argue that is a pivot today. we'll continue to monitor that have a great weekend let's get to the half. appreciate it very much. thank you. welcome to "the halftime report." like all of you we are remembering the horrific events of the 9/11 attacks 20 years ago tomorrow our friends on the investment committee will reflect on that tragedy during our show today, where they were, what they remember about the terrible day, and those that followed. we'll also of course cover the markets and that is where we'll start today. we will definitely get to the apple news but we want to start with the incredible numbers we saw showing just how much money is fleeing from the financial space and where some of it appears to be going. it is a major market story joining me for the hour members