>> too much debt, and then they went into brick and mortar stores, as well. which they probably did not need to do. thank you very much. >> thank you thanks for watching, everybody. >> "closing bell" starts right now. it is the last day of january, and stocks are looking to end a strong month on a high note as we await major challenges later this week the nasdaq is up today and up since the start of the year. welcome to "closing bell." here's where we stand in the market the s&p 500 gaining back most although not all of what was given up yesterday we were up 2 1/2% last week, down a bit more than 1% yesterday. and now up about 1% here we see the ten-year yield coming

in a little bit. gm is jumping on strong earnings, as well as solid guidance ups getting a boost on a bottom line, and exxonmobil also higher after beating earnings mcdonald's lower, despite topping estimates. and caterpillar at the bottom of the dow after a profit miss. we'll talk to brendan far for the latest calls to ban tiktok and his thoughts on a tighter crackdown of huawei. andkelly will join us. the s&p 500, encompassing the entire nearly 13 months since the s&p did peak for all-time back last january

again, we have regained most of what was lost yesterday, up close to 6% for the month. one thing to take note of, still slightly below the early december high. so everything that's happened in the month of january has happened within the range that we also were in, in december it's kind of interesting, and certainly there has been some good, technical information, some indications of new demand for stocks it's not as if we have yet broken out take a look at the home builders these are both hitting 12-month highs today. and here you have the home builder etf, which is not back at the highs but way above the prepandemic levels and it's basically right on the verge of getting toward those levels that were only ever seen in the 2021 housing nirvana

boomtime so it teams like the market is saying we're going to refresh demand with lower mortgage rates and the consumer is okay, or maybe something secular going on in terms of the shortage of new housing in this country. worth noting, a lot of mixed messages in this market. we'll try to decipher some of them as we close out january take a look at the major averages all higher for the month the s&p is on its pace for its best start of the year since 2019 the nasdaq on pace for its best month since july tomorrow, we'll get the latest interest rate decision from the fed and we will see if this rally holds up in the face of that let's bring in tony dwyer. good to see you, tony. obviously, we know what the leading indicators have been saying based on what the market has been hinting it.

any pause on that sflont -- front? >> price has an amazing way of changing sentiment but no is the answer i think you stole my thunder when you opened up and appropriately pointed out, we're just getting back to losses in late december. before coming out, i looked at the high yield market, the s&p 500, the ten-year note, all around where they were at that december peak. and if you look at the relative performance of the industrials, the financial space where there's so much interest going into the year, they're all back to the relative performance level they were in early november energy is at the exact same relative performance as it was in late june at that peak. so it's a really confused market just like you and me and everybody else at what point do you transition from bad news is good news to bad news is bad news

ultimately, it would be historically unique for the yield curves to act the way they are, the leading indicators to be where they are. all the different money supply in europe and the u.s. is still kind of in free fall so it's one of those times where i'm going to stick with the fundamental data, because even with the market data, it's so comp compelling >> sure. as all those things point in a similar direction, what they don't exactly tell you is the timing, and how long the lead times might be we just never quite know how that will work in terms of the fed decision tomorrow, in terms of the message jay powell offers, is there anything you think can bend the economic trajectory much one way or the other, or do you feel like it's well baked now? >> i think it's well baked in. what is interesting is in tech, you're getting layoffs are the new bull signal, which is unique but when i look at -- here's the problem that investors have. i'm as confused as everybody

else, but here's what the man said we don't want to replay the early '70s, which means taking off the -- taking the foot off the throat of inflation or the market too early which creates longer term and more entrenched inflation down the road. he's also said they're not going to do anything this year in terms of cutting rates so at this point, they're having tough time with credibility. he may push back a little bit and, again, the market is a little bit overbought, but nobody knows ultimately how high the market can go on this momentum run what i do know is, again, it will be unique to not go into some degree of recession if you go into a recession, you'll never bottom the s&p. it doesn't mean you have to go down 20% as we talked about

before on the show you know, this -- you're not new in the bear market it's a year and a half old for the average stock. to me, this dents ek peckexpecto of going to zero to me, the margin compression will be evident and you can have a fed that will allow us to look through the coming slowdown into the recovery >> so that implies that you would still need a relatively stiff decline in this market we're now, you know, 500 s&p 500 points, well more than 10% above the lows from october. so that would be some kind of a scare that something worse was likely going on. and that's what it would require to get aggressive in terms of buying >> we were in the camp in the fourth quarter rally, we turned more defensive in the first week

of december when you had run almost 14% higher off that october low. we're back to those levels in all those areas i mentioned earlier. so the market is confused. it didn't know if it should stay down, what do you do from here and that all comes down to what is going to happen with margins? and what i would like to do for the viewers is give a little data so currently, the consensus expectations, according to my earnings, for s&p operating profit margins for 2023 is 12.6%, down from 12.7% in 2022 and 13.4% in 2021. the reason i'm using those numbers, let's assume it's a soft landing there's never been a soft landing that's been a double digit level in margins so the margin assumptions, again, it's going to be historically unique for them to stay above 10%, when you have a sales decline, not decline, but a slowdown, which is ultimately

what drives them it's normally weakness in the revenue side, because you caut prices fast enough when you are going down >> we'll talk another time i don't know how the composition of the s&p today versus years past matters, but it's a good point. potentially more erosion to absorb tony, great to talk to you >> thanks for having me. after the break, the clock may be running out on tiktok the company's ceo is expected to testify to congress in march amid growing calls in washington to crack down on the chinese owned app. up next, brendan carr joins us to break down why he's in favor of a ban you're watching "closing bell" you're watching "closing bell" on cnbc.

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welcome back to "closing bell." time may be running out for tiktok in the u.s. the company's ceo is slated to testify on march 23rd in his first congressional appearance this comes amid growing concerns over how the company handles privacy and data security. those worries prompting ing sev u.s. lawmakers to introduce bills against tiktok that would prohibit app down loads on u.s. de devices. join us now is the fcc

commissioner brendan carr. commissioner, it's good to have you with us. you have certainly been vocal and on the record in believing that tiktok ought to be banned here is there anything the ceo could sayin congress that might either change your mind or assure you there is another way short of a ban that can take care of the concerns you have? >> it would be difficult at this point. the last couple of weeks, months in particular, the tide has been moving out on tiktok and accelerating clip. we had last month a new report where tiktok had to admit that, in fact, they had been surveilling the locations of specific u.s. reporters that had been writing unfavorable stories about the company. so i think it's going to be very difficult at this point for the ceo to come here that will say anything that will give me assurances that we can put in place protections. the federal government has been negotiating with tiktok for months now they've had every incentive to be on their best behavior. but that's when they surveilled

the locations of u.s. journalists, the head of our midterm elections, they targeted candidates that criticized the company. >> it might be certainly difficult to reestablish trust, but is it just about trust and what you consider bad faith by the company, or are there just practical constraints to simply having, you know, u.s. official eyes on it making sure it's not misused? we are talking about a world where you can only use certain sports betting apps in certain states i wonder what the impediments are here >> i think we can move forward with a ban other countries have done this we have seen upwards of 30

states ban tiktok from government devices in those states there's other precedents there was national security concerns with an app called grinder. that app was sold. so tiktok in some ways is uniquely replaceable, because a lot of people think about tiktok like normal social media like a facebook or linked in, where you are building a net worth of people you follow. as soon as you go to the application, it feeds you content from an algorithm in beijing. >> i guess i'm wondering if these other proposals, which would essentially allow tiktok to continue to operate here, but more or less just sequester the data, have it run on servers that are domestically based. >> yeah, i don't see that working out in this circumstance for a couple of reasons.

there is a story over the summer that got internal communications from officials talking about exactly that type of deal and protections. and officials said that it remains to be seen, even with the protections, whether product and engineering, meaning beijing, can access the data there is another story that had officials in l.a. meeting to get detailed information about the oracle servers where this data would be held, including the location of the servers. so i think that's clear to me that even tiktok officials aren't sure that they can trust these protections that we have put in place >> you mentioned that some -- to some degree, this could be done entirely through treasury and through the process. but do you expect it requires legislation to do what you would open to do >> there's bipartisan interest on that front. this is one where it's teed up right now. i think they should take action now because we are exposed

all these new protections i don't think will be enough we could see action in congress. there's bipartisan interest. congressman gallagher from wisconsin a republican has a bill that would ban tiktok nationwide on the senate side, you have democrat senator mark warner, chairman of senate intel that said tiktok is an enormous threat and scares the dickens out of him, his words. so there is growing bipartisan concern and coalescing around the idea that a ban is what it will take. you look at the data flows and surveilling locations of journalists, when at first they denied it, i think that's very telling. >> the administration is looking to further cut off huawei from, i guess, u.s. suppliers of

equipment. is that sensible at this point does it go towards similar ends in your mind >> i think it's a step in the right direction. the report is that the administration is looking at a digital action that would cut off less advanced chips to huawei they're banned from 5g chips, which has been an effective tool it would make sense to look at extending that as the reports indicate but if we have secure networks, by removing huawei, we have to go the next step and pair that with action on the app we have secured communications networks, but insecure apps running on it, then we really haven't taken care of the problem. >> do you think all of these measures come at a cost of essentially really closing off what has been the flow in goods and ideas, obviously china doesn't allow those things in, but if the corporate community i wonder is sort of going to look

at this as a step back >> i think reciprocity is a great starting point for tech policy that is not the case when it comes to the communist party of china. so there is a whole set of national security concerns we have to act on and mental health, a study showed that tiktok accounts set up for 13-year-old girls were showing eating disorder and self-harm content. a version of tiktok is available in china is showing museum exhibits, educational material so there's quite a contrast when you look at the things shown inside china versusout here in the u.s. that underscores the real national security that we have here >> commissioner brendan carr, appreciate your time today thank you. >> thanks. all right. let's get a check on the markets here the dow is up almost 200, 192 at this point the s&p 500 has slipped back just slightly, up a little less than 0.9%.

and wall street is buzzing about spotify today. we'll explain that, next later, our exclusive interview with the ceo of visa al kelly on his final day as the al kelly on his final day as the head of the company. lets you customize interfaces, charts and orders to your style of trading. personalized education to expand your perspective. and a dedicated trade desker. that will push you to be even better. and just might change how you trade—forever. because once you experience thinkorswim® by td ameritrade ♪♪♪ there's no going back. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and things are a no-go because you keep seeing double, ♪♪♪ or...your bloodshot eyes have you seeing red,

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what is wall street buzzing about today? spotify user growth. at a time when wall street has been worried about consumers pairing back on these services, spotify's stock is up sharply after adding 33 million active users. spotify now has 489 million multiactive users and should hit 500 million during the current quarter. one area that will help the

bottom line, podcasting. >> we've talked about over the next one to two years getting podcasts a break into profitability. and long-term, we believe we're on track we said '22 would be the peak in terms of the negative impact and we'll see the benefit of podcasts moderating in '23 and improving thereon. >> the stock is still off nearly 50% from its 52-week high, even after the recent rebound julia joins us now for more on this so certainly getting some results on the subscriber side, although i guess at a cost, and people are focussed on margins, as the company is. >> it's so interesting i spoke to the cfo and spoke on the phone earlier this morning, with the ceo they talked about how they are focused on reining in costs, laying off 6% of its employee base and will continue to invest

in areas of the podcast that are a drag on the bottom line, but will be doing with an eye on the margins, trying to figure out which of the investments are most valuable. >> yeah. so i was going to ask about the advertising side obviously, another focus of worry on the street. it's as if the numbers came with some relief in terms of how they performed. >> yes certainly there was a little bit of relief there. i asked this question, what do you expect in terms of the ad market as a whole? we will be hearing from snap chap after the bell today. we hear from meta after the bell tomorrow so there's a lot of curiosity about what is going on with the overall macro environment in terms of advertising they said that things, regardless of what happens, we feel confident in the ad options. this is a relatively smaller business for spotify compared to the strength of their

subscription business, which is essential for the future so some big picture confidence in their particular offerings as they compete in this overall market here. >> absolutely. certainly we'll check in with you later as those numbers come. julia, thank you up next, an interview with visa ceo's al kelly on whether he has seen any signs of a slowdown in consumer spending. conventional thinking delivers conventional results. at allspring, we break away with purpose. harnessing data-driven insights and boundless curiosity. we dissect the market from every angle.

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(co-worker 4) what are you doing this weekend? welcome back paypal joining in on the wave of tech layoffs, announcing it's cutting 2,000 jobs, around 7% of the workforce, the ceo writing to employees, while we made substantial progress, we have more work to do. shares ticking higher on the news, now up nearly 15% on the year with today's gain of almost 2% meantime, u.s. consumers are starting off the year a bit less confident than they were in december according to new data out this morning visa recently reporting earnings showing a strong holiday quarter. let's bring in the ceo al kelly who joins us on the last day at the head of the company along with kate. >> hey, mike al, great to see you

thank you for being here >> kate, good to see you >> i want to start with what mike just mentioned, visa reported earnings, no hint of all at a consumer slowdown how do you reconcile that, what you're seeing in your role at visa with so many other data points that do show a slowing consumer and some pressure on consumer spending? >> yes, we're seeing boring stability from the consumer, up 9% in the holiday season, 141% in 2019, and i think a lot has to do with the amount of cash digitization that has happened during and post pandemic we saw during the holiday season, 5% higher mix of people shopping in ecommerce than face-to-face environments. and that combined with the fact that there is still a lot of pent up demand in terms of travel there's been a nice return of travel over the course of the last number of months.

that's frankly continuing. >> in the past few years, it's in your ten cure, the doj talkig about debit cards and competition. one of visa's biggest deals was called off i wonder how investors should think about voes visa's growth going forward? >> we've made a number of purchases since the planned acquisition was rejected by the doj. so we're going to continue to look at good opportunities and good companies it's something that is part of our growth strategy. i think that will continue regulatory activity around the world, i've been involved in payments for almost 3 1/2 decades. regulatory activity is part of the game when you're there we spent a lot of time trying to educate regulators and work with them around the world. in the case of the doj, the

latest cid we got from them is similar to the ones we had gotten before. they're looking at debit and competition in the united states we believe we are completely compliant with all the laws and that we're doing all the right things >> al, i remember visa coming up i guess the 15th anniversary of its ipo. the whole story was payments are going from cash and checks to electronic form, plastic or otherwise. where are we in that process it seems as if it's getting more splintered there will be electronic payment options. >> nigood to see you, thank you the industry is a great industry the pie continues to grow and afact a lot of players that said, we have an incredible history and brand, incredible

infrastructure and global foot print that's hard to duplicate frankly, there are a lot more ways to pay, mike. but we don't pick winners and losers we enable anybody that wants to figure out how to provide a new way to pay for consumers, to work and run on our network. ultimately, we believe that the consumer, based on the value proposition and the user experience, will make the choice as to what is in their mind, the best way to pay. so when i look at the fact that there's still $15 trillion spent on cash and checks around the world, the total addressable market for the b-2-b space, i see nothing but tremendous upside in this market and the pile will continue to grow that on top of the fact that geographically there's still so many places where payments are

they nascent. we're just beginning to scratch the surface in terms of consumer payments >> you know, getting a little bit into that, in terms -- we have such long-term drivers of overall volumes. i wonder if you can have much of a read on the current pace of the cyclical fortunes of consumers. the overall space is growing and what clues you might look for that would suggest maybe things are weakening, whether it's more spending or other metrics that you might be able to look at >> you know, mike, my successor tomorrow, ryan mcinerney says when we squint really hard, it's still hard to find these things. but there is some substitution going on if somebody spent $100 at walmart yesterday, they might be spending a little more on food and pharmacy products and a little bit less on discretionary

items. we know there is some movement away from brands to generics but when we do our analysis and we look industry by industry, and we look country by country, we are still seeing a stable consumer out there, and i think one of the areas that's really attractive right now and has really grown much faster or recovered much faster, mike, than we thought is cross border travel, and that's still with asia still being behind 2019 china obviously being 2019 and north america, the united states specifically, just getting back to 2019 levels, given where the value of the dollar has been and how difficult it's been for international people to get visas into the united states >> and you want to ask me about the political environment. you've had some challenges over the past few years, things like gun control and some of the new protocols there.

pushback in visa's role in online pornography and issues there. what is your advice to ceos who are wondering when to chime in, if at all, on some of these issues, and any regrets how you dealt with some of those controversies? >> my view, kate, is very simple if it really impacts our country, our company i should say, i should speak out. but if it doesn't, i shouldn't we have a very specific purpose at visa, which is to uplift everyone everywhere by being the best way to be paid and pay. i want everybody to be comfortable using our products we're guided by the law of each land we on rait around the world. our belief is we should follow that law so yes, there's a new merchant code for gun stores. that was a standard established by iso in europe given that we operate in a

global interonperable world, we follow standards so anything that is legal is still allowed to be purchased. and beyond that, some of this nonsense about, for instance, we can create a gun reg city and track people is nonsense we don't collect the data, so if you go into a gun store and buy a tent, i just know you went in there, i don't know what you purchased. >> i appreciate your time today on your last day as visa's ceo >> kate, thank you very much mike, thank you to you >> thank you, mike back to you. >> thanks to you both. take a look at where gm shares are they're revving higher after reporting better than expected earnings and guidance. coming up, a top analyst is maintaining his sell rating on the stock. as we enter a break, check out the standout stock winners for

january. it's a lot of the names hit hardest last year. tesla and roku both up around 40%. we'll be right back. you'll always remember buying your first car. but the things that last a lifetime like happiness, love and confidence... you can't buy those. but you can invest in them. at t. rowe price, our strategic investing approach can help you build the future you imagine.

let's check out our stealth mover. international paper, and investors are seeing some big paper profits today. the company packaging together a fourth quarter profit beat on the back of lower costs, issuing stronger than expected full-year guidance, thanks to improved profitability. the share is up 10%.

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major averages the s&p 500 up 1.1%, paul, on day when i don't think earnings are dazzling anybody, but here we are with a 6% s&p gain in january. what do we attribute that to >> it all comes down to expectations when it comes to earnings, mike what you have seen heading into this earnings season was the fact that expectations were extremely low. you had some of the most -- the highest negative revisions in the month leading up to earnings season that we have seen in quite a few quarters the last two earning seasons, the market was up 8% so when you have that low bar, it is easier for the companies to exceed them and we have seen relatively disappointing results relative to expectations. the earnings beat rate is lower than the 30-year average the revenue beat rate is lower

than the three-year average. yet the average stock has been doing much better than the three-year average the ones that are beating are doing much, much better than their average. and ones that miss are going down less than what you would expect it's all about supply and demand you have a scarcity of companies beating expectations, investors are -- you have more companies missing -- [ inaudible >> yeah. i guess it loses its power to shock on that level. let's get to one of the outperformers. general motors surging after issuing better than expected full-year experience they said they had no pricing changes for its electric vehicles planned, a departure from ford and tesla. gm announced a $650 million investment in lithium americas,

committing to its ev strategy. let's bring in garrett nelson from cfra. he just raised his target to $32 on the stock, but maintains a sell garrett, good to have you. >> thanks for having me. >> what fails to get you on board the stock here i know your projected target valuation for gm based on what you expected to earn is more like five the six times earnings what is it about the company that doesn't warrant more of a p ethan that >> yeah, we think they're making a very aggressive bet on the future of electric vehicles. they want 40% of their u.s. fleet to be electric by the end of 2025. and we see a situation in the very near future where the u.s. market is really oversaturated with electric vehicle models, and the demand just isn't there. if you look last year, evs accounted for about 5% of total of new vehicle sales in the u.s.

there is well over 100 new ev models that consumers can buy by 2025 so there is a whole lot of new models coming to market. we just don't see many selling particularly well. >> now, gm's production goal for the current year, is it 400,000 evs? just in the very near term, gm's fortunes are not strictly hitched to how it manages to fight the ev market share wars >> in the near term, they're expected to introduce three new ev models this year. the chevy silverado, the blazer and the equinox. aside from the chevy bolt, there's two others they had to discontinue due to poor sales,

the spark and the volt if you look at the market, tesla vehicles still account for almost 2/3 of all evs sold in the u.s. so you look at the rest of the market, it just doesn't leave a lot of opportunity for gm and other competing automakers who are rushing into the ev market >> all right we'll have to leave it there although it is worth noting even with this pop in gm shares, it's still below where it was in december so clearly, some skepticism about how well they can do that. garrett, thank you very much appreciate it. >> thank you it has been a volatile day for shares of exxonmobil reporting better than expected fourth quarter earnings, and a record $56 billion annual profit for 2022 but the stock trading lower because of concerns about higher drilling costs this morning on "squawk box,"

the ceo talked about this. >> we've done the hard work, we made the investments we had a keen focus on making sure we had the production there and products available for society when it was needed when the call came, we answered it we had spent that money, taken criticism at the time, and grew our production and are providing more products today because of those investments. so i think we're doing what the white house in essence is asking us to do >> a white house spokesperson selling cnbc this afternoon -- of >> pippa stevens joins us. pippa, i guess this is the predictable back and forth on the other hand, if you look at exxon's numbers and their plans, i think their capital spending budget is about what people were expecting, well over $20 billion for the next couple

of years so it's hard to know if this is an either/or situation >> yeah. that comes in line with expectations the company emphasized that production was up 30% in 2022, relative to 2021 as you heard, darren woods was emphasizing that the company has invested countercyclicly and that those investments are now paying off where they have increased production in places like the permian basin of course, the white house is taking issue, but darren woods would say that this takes a long time to get new production online there are refinery shortages throughout the u.s we have seen a reduction in capacity there so he says that this is not the industry's fault he made a point of differentiating exxon from other energy companies

he saidwhen they leaned in whe others leaned out, that he continues to invest throughout the pandemic and into today. so responding to the white house saying they are increasing their output and making a distinction between exxon and what other energy companies are doing >> of course, crude is down where it was about 14 months ago in price so it's not as if it's still riding the highs pippa, thank you very much caterpillar, the biggest loser on the dow today, despite beating earnings investments, investors are occurred about higher costs and caterpillar is warning that demand in china will remain sluggish >> mike, the comments from caterpillar on china were significant amid this reopening, the company saying instead of seeing weakness in china, particularly in the excavator industry, they're expecting the business in china to remain below 2022 levels.

wall street analysts had been building this thesis around caterpillar being the beneficiaryvival in this economy that may be the case, but it may be a second half of the year story. so a reset in expectations the stock has seen four weeks of gains. the earnings report didn't meet those high expectations, so seeing it down about 4%. >> paul, it's below, i don't know, 50%, cat is, from the lows in october or thereabouts. it seems as if the market was geared, paul, for something a little stronger in the near term none the less, machinery and some of the other capital goods of the market have been hooed to the upside >> the expectations were high within the sector. the industrial sector we have

seen caterpillar as an exception. contrast that with ups, which didn't have a great report relative to expectations today, but that stock is creating higher, because expectations were low like ups, like a lot of these transport stocks, has very negative sentiment going into earnings so if you are looking for an area where the bar is set low within the industrial sector, you may want to look at transports >> for sure.% we are levitating here toward the close. 4071 on the s&p 500, metty much the highs for the month. paul, what is your read on whether the market is kind of setting itself up on a tee for jay powell to take a swing tomorrow when he talks about what he's doing from here? >> yeah. he's got the bat ready, i think. but the last three days, we have seen big selloffs after the

announcement so who knows what will happen tomorrow when you look at the broader perspective and the broader backdrop, the economy is a worry, definitely. the fed being that ultrahawkish is a concern but you have negative sentiment, and most importantly, the internals of the market, which we have been talking about, have been strong since october. give me the choice to invest based on the headlines or the e tattorney -- internals, i'll pik the internals every time >> what about the idea that all these leading indicators of a downturn seem to be lining up, people feel like it's when, not if for the economy yet the stock market is managing to fight through to the upside >> two things, like the two legs of the stool still standing for the economy are employment you still have an average of

200,000 a month jobs created and then as we heard with these bank earnings reports, consumers still han their accounts so that's helping to keep things from turning just want to see we fed talks tomorrow, are they going to start owning it down a little bit or keep going that we'll find out tomorrow, and that will tell us how we close after the meeting tomorrow >> absolutely. you know, i guess real quickly, what would be a routine pullback from here that would say okay, nothing too much to worry about? >> so it's just -- look at the 200 day moving average that everybody has been focusing on you see a 2%, 3% pullback here, that's typical garden variety. thursday after the close, we'll get these mega cap earnings. i think within 5%, that's

nothing to worry about here. >> paul, thank you very much we have the s&p 500, 4075, up 1.5% on the day heading into that fed meeting tomorrow. markets have been strong all day. a fed decision say tomorrow. that will do it for "closing bell." "closing bell: overtime" is next >> mike, thank you very much welcome to "eovertime." we have amd and snap earnings. those in the next few moments, as well as the march up to that fed decision less than 24 hours away our reporter is waiting for the results. we'll show you the stock moves as they happen amd another check on the chips, off to a really good start and then there's snap. perhaps given an early read on