years, but the issues there with the crypto exposure, there are still questions. >> interesting all right. i'm sure he'll be on cnbc over next -- >> or newsmax. >> yeah. >> i think that's where he pops up. >> yeah. >> frank and frank >> frank and frank frank squared. all right, robert, thank you very much. thank you for watching "power lunch." >> "closing bell" starts right now. kelly, thank you very much welcome to the "closing bell." i'm scott wapner live from post nine at the new york stock exchange this make or break hour begins with a stress relief for stocks rebounding after the svb shock investors wondering what it all means for the market, the fed, the economy and so much more we'll ask billionaire investor carl icahn that very question when he joins us live. here is the score card with 60 minutes to go in regulation. major averages, they are all still in the green today a really nice day for the russell. not quite as strong as it was, but nonetheless, that strong regional bank rebound is helping

small cap stocks today in the russell, yields reversing their recent declines as things stabilize a bit as well. there is the two-year, 423, brings us to our talk of the tape, are we out of the woods for the time being simple question, maybe complex answer let's ask adam parker, founder and ceo, cnbc contributor as well the question of the moment, what is the answer? >> no, we're not out of the woods. >> to what degree? >> i mean, you know, it is multifaceted even before this, i would say a week or two ago, we were telling people, look, everything looks worse than it did three months ago. evaluations, speculation, interest rates, earnings expectations, all thatment you throw in here lack of confidence, i think it is a problem. i think everyone i know and i've talked to over the last five days kind of nonstop is moving deposits out of any bank they're worried about to one of the big three or four. so, is it over just because things are bouncing? no it is not over

how could it be? so if you end up, you know, if you're a cfo or somebody in charge of making financial decisions for your organization, you find it a month or two from now one of the banks you're with isn't in business, you're kind of a chuckle head. >> is that a sample of two people who are moving money out of a smaller bank? >> about 100 every private equity investor, every private equity fund, every hedge fund -- people since the middle of the last week thinking about their balances or where they should move them. there is a risk/reward of going to something skewed asymmetically now. do we need so many regional banks? no, we don't need so many. we have a weird country. the top 3,000 there is like 300 banks that are public. do we need 300 the old system of you knew -- i see scott at the corner, i like scott, he's my banker. >> i don't understand what you're calling for do you think there will be a broader crisis within regional

banks? >> yeah. >> i don't want things to get too hyperbolic in -- oh, my god, 100 people pulling all their stuff out of the bank. >> i think more and more of these things are going to have problem bes with their deposits. you know me, i'm not histrionic about it. >> a very mellow sense. >> i think really there is two issues one, i don't know how we can go to the bank nerd stuff, but basically that is part of the maturity of the balance sheet that you can't access, the banks are just way too expensive we wrote in our note, i think you saw, there san intellectually honest sort of loss adjusted price to book. >> you don't think bank of america is too expensive wasn't the stock below book value? >> no, absolutely not. no the stock was trading about 1.5 -- >> at book value >> if you look at what they reported in their december

2022 10k it was around 630 billion or so of halt maturity assets, 100 billion loss on those. book value, 175. the things -- >> you use a different methodology. >> i'm just saying if you adjusted for the mark to market losses on a bank like that, it is much more expensive it is not. bank of america is fine in terms of viability i'm not -- don't misquote me in any way. i'm saying it is not as cheap as you think it is on price to tangible. >> you said the words on tv. the words are the words. >> the words are the words and i did not say there was a viability problem with the big banks like that, but i think the marginal regional ones where they have people worried about the deposits -- >> what is the takeaway then for the market >> when you have this volatility and uncertainty it should be rewarded with lower multiples. think i i think the stock market is going lower from here because almost all the major things i

look at look worse it could be there is some big positioning already made what are you rooting for with the fed? that's the conversation all day since cpi. are you rooting for 125 and a pause, rooting for them to cut i had someone on the phone last night, they don't cut by 100 basis points, the banking doesn't make any sense there are smart people confused about what they're rooting for. that uncertainty means lower multiples. >> forget whatever or whoever is rooting for what, what should they do? what do you think they're going to do? >> they should pause >> right now >> yeah. see where we are and certainly i don't think they should raise any more. i think the cpi is an interesting metric the more we focus on it the last couple of years, most of the things that people need deflated massively. all the commodities, look at bloomberg or look at it and then some of the things that are kind of more discretionary are still inflating. so i think you have to parse it. the main thing that is an issue, which we talked about for a long

time, is the shelter portion where home prices are still high and cost to borrow, so people are renting and that's propping up the rent portion of the cpi if you strip that away, a lot of things deflated a lot. oil, other products. >> if i asked you that question last week, i don't think you would say they should do any more are you profoundly changed >> i think it makes sense for them to pump the brakes and pause. you have a crisis that causes them to, i think, take a step back and reassess >> last time you were here you recommended financials as part of your sector ideas >> yeah. >> that's changed now? >> well, good news is in my 15 years of being a strategist, i never once recommended regional banks. that feels good. we were recommending consumer finance, discover, synchrony net net it has been up i don't have confidence anymore in these things. i feel like why should i be

overweight any financial institution at this point with tight financial conditions, uncertain what the fed is going to do, uncertain about so many aspects in the economy, i think it skews to the negative. >> all the way around? >> all the way around and for financials in particular. >> all right >> i think the safest place is the megacap banks that you know will be around and probably gaining share. >> you got to forgive me, i got to go. >> good to be with you. >> a pleasure. adam parker joining us here at "closing bell. to our twitter question of the day, are bank stocks a good buy right now? aso soimple question, we want yr answer we'll share the results later on in the hour. we're just getting started here on "closing bell. up next, the legendary investor carl icahn sets his sights on al alumna, getting ready for a proxy fight and his take on the post-svb market. what the fed should do next week, don't miss that. you're watching "closing bell.

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billionaire investor carl icahn finding his latest activist target in illumina taking issue with that company's acquisition of grail, which specializes in cancer testing. the deal being contested now by european regulators. mr. icahn nominating three people to that company's board and gearing up for a fight he joins us now to discuss that issue and the state of the markets, the economy, the fed. carl, welcome back nice to talk to you today. >> yeah, good to talk to you, scott. >> you know, we're going to get to the illumina thing in a

minute i want to get to the markets first, and i want your take on what you think has transpired here over the past few days from a market standpoint? >> yeah, i don't think it is the last few days, necessarily i think we have some major problems in our economy, maybe they'll be fixed, but look at many, many factors the rising tide, but a lot of people in our economy are not doing well, obviously. the net worth of the median household is nothing basically and you just look at what is going on, i think powell really has to raise interest rates. i can't talk about next week or even next month.

but i -- inflation is the worst thing an economy can have. and i think people underrate that if you look in history, every hegemony has been destroyed by inflation or almost every one. just go back to rome that's what happens. and one of the major problems, i think, in this economy right now is there is no leadership on the corporate level. forget politically i won't get in politics, but i think you do feel that in washington, nobody knows what's really going on. but forgetting that, in the corporations, i lived with that all my life basically and companies today really have -- with many exceptions, many, many exceptions, leadership is worse than mediocre.

and that's why we are so successful you go to a company today, that's what we have done over and over and over again. and it is really horrible what you find in many of them >> we'll get to your latest one as i mentioned in a minute i want to drill down on this for a moment so, you think the fed should keep going you think the fed should continue to raise interest rates, despite what we just witnessed with the bank failures >> well, in a way they go together bank failure is the leadership in our companies and the way they spent money and really you have a -- if you keep bailing them out. i won't opine on trying to save some poor people, although the depositors of silicon valley weren't exactly poor people. but that's not the issue the issue is you have to stop inflation. you say, we keep going on, i

don't think you have a choice. if you don't keep going on, i really believe that the problem with inflation can become such that this very -- very difficult to get out of it hey, maybe there is something we can -- maybe there is some miracle, you do have inflation look, if you stop -- if they don't raise rates next week, next month, i don't know but i don't -- i really don't think there is a choice, scott i think you can't have inflation in this country. you pay the price. you have gone out of the business, you spread the family wealth and keep spending at the end, you pay the price for it >> i want your reaction to what citadel's ken griffin told the ft about this very issue in which he suggested that the government should not have bailed out all of the depositors he said, quote, the u.s. is supposed to be a capitalist

economy and that's breaking down before our eyes. there has been a lot of financial discipline with the government bailing out depositors in full what do you make of that statement? he also goes after the regulator, about what do you think about that >> i can't opine on what griffin is saying there. because i don't quite understand where it goes. but i am saying that he's right that our system is breaking down and that we absolutely have a major problem in our economy today. and i'm not going to opine or whether or not you bail out a bank or something like that. but you can't have the country feeling that -- it doesn't matter if they save, it doesn't matter, they can spend all the money they want, do whatever you want, the government will bail you out. he's right about that. you can't have that. that would be -- should you bail this bank out, i don't know. i don't like to opine on things that i'm not really that

conversant in. but i do agree that the system is breaking out. one of the major reasons, not the only reason obviously, but one of the major reasons is that you don't have good corporate leadership you say, so what i'll tell you so what. if you don't have good corporate leadership at companies, when the tide is high and things are great, it doesn't matter all these guys are running these companies, partying and having a good time and giving themselves bonuses, but it is different than the people who invest with them they're looking to get bonuses i go into it and there is a reason that we make so much money. just to make a point, over the years, if you invested at iep, annualized, made -- reinvested dividends you made an annual return of 15%.

but why? because we go into companies and clean them up. and there is so much to clean up and it is getting much worse now. one of the worst countries in the world as far as corporate governance goes. i could go on and on that. the economy is breaking down i don't think it is right because you bailed out some investors, but i do say he's right in the sense that our economy is breaking down how do you define capitalist >> i know you have been fairly negative on the market for a while, hedged, i think you had given us an idea of how your positioning looked i had a guest come on and suggest that we're not out of the woods kuquite yet. the stock market had a nice gain

today, a bit of a relief rally, giving a lot of that up. do you feel like, you know, we still have some tough sledding ahead in the market? how are you positioned as we're having this conversation today >> yeah, my book is very -- i try to keep hedge. i don't, you know, i try not to bet on the market or pick the markets going down tomorrow. sometimes i do talk about what i think is going to happen over a period of six months, a year, two years. i remember being on your show. the last time, the last couple of times, a year ago, six months ago, eight months ago, i said the same thing this market is going to get hurt. and i was right on that. but big deal, you know, you really can't make a living to keep the market, you know, day to day, month to month but if you ask me how i'm hedged, i never -- the book

is -- that's the way i've set it up we have -- for the most part we're going to be activists or are are acctivists in. i can do better than most companies in the market. you have some bad times and good times. it doesn't workday in, day out that's how i feel. and -- >> if you're more short than long, you think, i think, maybe your biggest position overall, but your biggest short was commercial real estate related, which some are now suggesting is potentially the next shoe to drop in all of this. what are your thoughts >> well, we were not -- three years ago, three, four years ago, we bought that, complicated drive tariff s derivatives, buts

time i wouldn't suggest the average guy thinks about doing it. but our real estate markets were completely totally overvalued. even if you didn't have this mess, amazon was taking a lot of business away. you look at things simply and so i would say that today, some good companies around and some bargains around in the meat and potatoes kind of companies i like to be in. but generally i think you can't justify buying some of the technology stocks and whatever and they can't justify present value, meaning that with higher interest rates, which i think are here to stay, you really can't justify some of the prices

of these tech stocks where you look at the price of value and say it is better than an interest rate. that's true when you're talking about 2% interest rates, but not now. and even there, these tech stocks, they're run by people in many cases that shouldn't be running companies. i'm not saying they're not bright people. but i'm saying they should not be running companies and many of the ones who do run them, don't think -- i don't think has the trust of -- to put money into them. >> do you buy any? have you been buying anything in the last couple of days, bank related, regional bank related, used any dislocations in the market to buy some stocks? >> the only thing i would like too get to for a moment is illumina, which is a sale pull of what is wrong in corporate america. i'll ask you a question, if you

owned the farm, you inherited the farm, and had -- you found out the manager of the farm took your best equipment and sold it to somebody they knew and then went back to him, and bought it back eight times what they sold it for, would you rejustify it in going in and questioning them an finding out what it is and not be satisfied with -- that's what goes on in corporate america. that's what went on at illumina. illumina is a great company. but the management in that company managed to lose -- they lost $50 billion of shareholder value in the stock market. $50 billion. and then they don't feel contrite about it. that is what our corporations hide behind.

they hide behind the words >> so you bought -- you own -- >> it is a sad xhencommentary. >> you own 1.4% of the stock your issue is really with their acquisition of the cancer testing company grail. correct? they did it in your contention knowing that the eu was going to fight it and be against it is that the principle part of your argument? >> yeah. the whole argument is it is insane because they went in, and paid a huge price. they had sold to a group of savvy investors, they sold the same company, they own this company, grail they sold it to them a few years ago. and very low price the company hasn't really on any revenues since then, it is a good company, i'm not saying it is not a good company with some good ideas but they went back and gave these guys basically a profit of

$5.5 billion to buy it back. that's bad enough. they did it, they did it after the eu told them they weren't going to let them do it and told them they diabdn't want them too it and how do you do that without going -- how do you go spend -- i can understand they could get it back for a billion dollars, $800 million,let's take a shot. they spent $8 billion for it and they -- it closed over what the eu tells them, so the eu stopped them in their tracks, the eu won't let them touch this company. it is costing $800 million, they put in $800 million, so they're down, 70%, 80% how do you justify that? it is structured

it is time we're moving in this direction. i think these guys violated the fiduciary obligations. they were grossly negligent. and to take the attitude, well, you know, we -- we want to do, we're here, we don't think icahn understands, we're not going into tell them what to do, we're saying let us go in, we fixed up numerous companies the same guys on the board -- >> let me get their response let me get their response. you want three nominees on the board. let's get that out there, you're nominating three people for the board. in some respects i would ask you, you got 1.4% of the company, you think that justifies having three of the

nine people on the board >> the chairman of the company doesn't know much about science and doesn't have any stock having no stock, does that justify being the chairman of the company and being on the board? i don't know why we have to relay how much stock we own and we own a lot of stock. we owe much, much, much more than all the board members combined you know the company is a huge company. they lost a lot of money they own .1 of 1%. if you use that logic, i wouldn't use that logic, they're all good board members if they own stock, but that logic is absurdity. that board doesn't have business in my mind even the guys in business. i tell you something, the stock

went up, i'm laughing, people talk about apple, it went up $17 billion. it was a much bigger company this stock went up $7 billion when they heard i was in it. does that tell you something that tells you how the shareholders feel about these guys >> they say, the company responded, they say you're being, quote, unyielding in your demands, that any resolution should give you outside influence and control. they say your board nominees lack relevant skills and experience >> say, so you said three things let me start with out of control. i have three seats out of 12 so i don't know how that gives me control i could add three against 12 it is not control. i gave these three guys because it is such a mess that we need

three to influence boards. i know boards. most boards are are conditrite when they do something wrong they all look at this as if nothing is wrong it is amazing when you talk to them we think it should be done it is not your money, guys so we have to have that because ear-wise we get nowhere with these guys with three, usually smart guys, the guys we have that are going on very experienced and companies that are in a mess, that have been put in a mess, and i think that the three is right. i understand control we're going to have three people out of 12. you do the math. >> right i'm told that they -- i'm told they had numerous conversations and discussions with you before

you went public. what did they offer you, if anything >> you know, it is funny they violated an agreement, i guess i can. they agreed they weren't going to talk about what the discussions were >> i'm asking you what they were about. i know you had them. i know they had -- >> i really feel funny about talking about what went on at those discussions because we said we weren't going to talk about them but it appears they talked to you about those discussions. and came to certain conclusions about them, which are ridiculous i don't understand the question. i don't want to go verbatim what they said and i said and they said but i told them what i'm telling you. i get a little strident sometimes, but i would tell you that it is basically the same thing. how can you go and do something

like this? that's what the discussions were and just pretty much what i said to you just now, how -- i saw many violations over my lifetime of boards -- government agency with that kind of money. when you put in that kind of money and in this case he didn't buy the stock from who she sold the saved stock to and at least nothing is close to what they're doing here it is an absurdity i basically told them that maybe i didn't mention -- i said the same thing, you know >> so do you, i want to get to the bottom of, do you want them to have this company grail or

not? that seems to be a little unclear. >> i got to tell you, i would tell you this, what should be done with this company, they have a real problem now, even fo a financial standpoint in my mind, they feel they can borrow money. it is illumina and they can do it now they're not going to be able to -- where are they going to get the $800 million that the eu said they have to spend to fix this up or to -- this is what is amazing. they don't have any income they have to spend $800 million the next year. i say what they should be doing, and they got a great company in illumina and if gene sequency.

they should get rid of the grail that they own. they did it in such a way, so haphazardly and ridiculously they put it away, that if they sell it, it will be difficult. they did it in way that the guys they sold it to don't have to pay taxes. it is amazing. let me say something what i think should be done is spin it in a way with the right softwa software you can sell the right, to somebody who wants to buy it or exercise your right to be a part of grail and that money that you put in doesn't go to this company illumina doesn't need that

money. their money would go into grail to do what grail has to do the shareholders benefit by owning grail at a cheap price, having a good management team in grail, and these guys are a little bit -- they go back to what they seem to know best or think they know best and run the company. that's what you know i give you the demand they do that in these discussions. i was really reasonable in what we talked about. now i'm saying that's got to be done, i realize how stuck in this thing these guys are. >> okay. so we're making some news then on what your actual ideas or demands are. so they through -- >> i depidn't make the demand. i'm saying what should be done in my mind listen to the other shareholders, you know, big

shareholders, and see what they think. if the other big shareholders like what they're doing, go with them, hey, so be it. i made a profit in the company but i think it would be crazy to let this company go with this management team calling all the shots. >> they say that they have recorded a $450 million reserve which is the amount that the eu may fine the company that's number one. they give a statement suggesting the divestiture work if it needs to go in that direction is already under way. that's in their statement. they say it is already under way. let me finish real quick >> that's nonsense because -- >> let me finish real quick. >> it is going to take years to do this. because we're going to go to court, find out, okay, what is

the divestiture? what do we have to do? they argue over that for two or three years. i've seen what these -- there is never going to be -- the eu feels very, very strongly about this i'm not saying they're wrong i could see the use for it here. i'm not a lawyer i haven't studied it but they're going to go and they said they're going to keep these guys from doing this okay in court, if they tell them they could do it, it is going to be -- i think there will be a divestiture. they say under way, that is the same thing they have been doing all along. they don't think they have to tell you the facts it is completely wrong this is not going to be done this company is going to bleed and bleed and bleed looking ahead. if they don't get rid of this albatross, not an albatross to other people that have money to

protect this company and make it work but albatross to these guys, okay the eu will not let them have it the company can go in, even then i would be against this, i wouldn't have fought it. if they did this, the eu said fine, come on in, then maybe, maybe -- i think they overpaid like crazy even then you could say well, that's maybe the business judgment what they did is gross negligence at the least. maybe worse. >> okay. >> okay. so theoretically, they could win however unlikely you think it is, they may win the appeal with the eu if that happens, will you stick around or will you sell your stock and leave and if you do get on the board, through this proxy effort or through some sort of an agreement, do you want the ceo to stay or not? >> those are questions i can't discuss on this program

obviously. i'll sigh thiay this to you when you're up against an agency like this, as you know, first energy we finally turned around by going on and did a great job. the two guys going on this, what i will tell you is they don't understand this, i don't think they understand it $8 billion, and when they say they reserve $450 million, what about the $39 billion they wrote off already for this little venture they got into? how much work did they do on it? when you talk business judgment, there is more definition of business judgment and this may well be personally liable for just ignoring this whole thing and i think there has got to be -- this has got to be looked

into this might be a water shed case in the future about what goes on in corporate america and why there is no accountability and by the way, scott, that's why one of the major reasons that we have problems in this country is the average worker doesn't understand what goes on in the board rooms. we really have problems with many companies this might be a water shed case of what is going on. >> let's leave it there. 20 minutes left in the trading session here i want to get back to what is happening in the market. it has been volatile we'll talk to you again soon thank you for your time today. >> okay, scott >> that's carl icahn joining us there. icahn enterprises chairman we have the dow which is dipping negative working on another gain here we're up 157 or so on the dow and what has been a fairly volatile session again coming up, we're talking

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. 15 minutes to go before the closing bell back to kristina partsinevelos with a look at the stocks to

watch today. >> shares of amd surging 5.5% on the launch of a new fourth generation processor also key bank note out today the stock is up over 33% year to date and we're seeing shares of metta also jumping today, 6% after announcing another 10,000 job cuts after the company already laid off 11,000 workers back in november recall we know this that mark zuckerberg called 2023 the year of efficiency for meta and investors seem to like the stock cuts the stock is up 60% just this year alone scott? >> the year ofefficiency kris kristina, thank yo

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we're now in the "closing b bell" market zone. bill nygren of oakmark on the rebound in bank stocks i begin with you, interesting action here on the tape over the last 20, 25 minutes or so. >> bit of breathing room just because obviously seems like the banks stabilizing a little bit, able to rally, no further blowups we know about and then a little bit of general sense out there that maybe we're on target next week. the highs of today in the s&p were almost exactly to the point of the highs on friday it seems like we're trading pretty mechanically here within this range until we wait and see. until the two-year note yield

stops moving 20 to 30 basis points a day, you're not going to get fully comfortable and have real traction in this market as we hold the bottom end of the range. >> back into watching extreme rate volatility and the impact that has on the trade, which is -- wasn't good the last time it was extreme and here we are again. >> don't know if it is a passing storm in that direction until we get a little bit of a fix on what is happening next week with rates. there was a massive short covering rally in the short end of the treasury curve yesterday and it still seems like there is after shock to that. >> bill nygren joining us right now. bill, we have absorbed these events now over the last few days, how are you feeling about some of your holdings, the bank stocks in general, are they a safe place to be right now in your mind? >> thanks for having me, scott if i was allowed to tweet investment opinions, i would have been on the side of the yes, it is a good time to invest in bank stocks

i think it is important for people to understand just how different svb is or was compared to other bank stocks not a diversified source of depositors almost all of them uninsured they had a very large investment in long duration securities. so much so that their book value would have been negative you contrast that with the names that we own at oakmark that sell 6 to 8 times earnings look a capital one, ally, bank america, first citizens, and those have diversified sources of depositors they're almost all individuals over 80% are insured, so under 250,000. their mark to mark book value is significantly positive i just think they're in a very,

very different situation than svb and as you expected, we have been in contact over the past two days with almost all of our bank holdings and the consistent message we hear is that customers are behaving as they normally would it is business as usual. >> you know, i am curious, though, because let's just take bank of america and citi and i'm just wondering if in your mind the investment thesis or paradigm has changed at all as you get your arms around what may happen next in terms of more regulation, higher interest rate on deposits, which has an obvious and immediate impact on net interest margin, which is so often cited as one of those key drivers of profitability for the banks. and if that is materially changed, then i can't imagine you wouldn't be thinking about what happens now >> well, we would agree that if

interest rates go higher, it is likely that the cost of deposits go up. but it is not a one to one ratio. the banks throughout most of history have passed through less than 100% of the changes that we see in treasury rates. on the deposit side, but on the loan side, that gets passed through more quickly so, yes, there could be a short term drag on net interest margin, but we don't think that affects the long-term value of the companies at all >> do you think that loan growth is going to be impaired as a result of this i can't imagine that it won't be in some respects >> well, i think a lot of what we have seen over the past week has made the consumer more fearful and probably slows things down a little bit maybe that gives the fed some room next week these companies, the story for

owning these stock s is not dependent on unusually high loan growth, it is that slow growth in net income -- slow growth in revenues, slight improvements in efficiency leads to reasonable net income growth and return of capital to shareholders makes the total return on these stocks better than an average company and you're paying less than half the market multiple. >> it is interesting, too, i'll know you had the opportunity to listen to the conversation i had at the top of the program with adam parker who suggested even bank of america which, look, people have different metrics in the way they look at stock s an decide whether they're cheap or too expensive. he suggested that bank of america was too expensive in the current environment. i said it is at or a touch belo book in the slide. he is, like, no it wasn't. it is in the eye of the beholder

how would you encounter that >> we think bank of america is one of the best run banks in the coun country. it has got some of the strongest most durable deposits, tremendous deposit franchise and on current estimates, it is selling at a little bit over eight times earnings so, we view it as a far above average bank selling at too large discount to the s&p 500. we think it is a well managed company. >> bill, that sound effect was the two-minute warning i have to let you go we'll talk to you again soon i appreciate your time bill nygren joining us as we count down to the close here mike santoli here for his last word 321 points up on the dow now, better than 1% on the s&p. i get the volatility, but, wow, in just the last 20 minutes. >> jumpy again within this range. a little headline driven and we have an expiration coming on

friday a lot of things people are looking at the theme pretty consistent the past two days is the market is reacting to the real disruptions in financials, and this idea that there might be some other kind of treacherous capital flows into -- going toward those companies, generating capital and away from those that consume it, might have it at risk. it really is this trade people are willing to migrate toward the megacap growth stocks that are self-financing and all the rest we'll see how long that lasts. i'm not sure that's the trade of the year it is a handoff from buying steel stocks at the beginning of the year and the industrials semis are holding up okay as well for now it is movement within the index. not sort of a game over, we have to get out because all of a sudden the recession is more likely but very wide screen factors in

terms of what changed about defensive policy and the underlying growth. that's going to do it for us i'll see you tomorrow. dow out with a big gain. that's right closing near session lies, stocks snap their losing streak. that is the score card on wall street the action is just getting started. welcome to "closing bell: overtime." i'm morgan brennan with jon fort mario gabelli joins us with his thoughts on the market, m&a and top ideas right now. >> plus, a key read on rates and housing when we get results from