before we +■go. the s&p up over añi percent. the dow, fallingú "the exchange" begins right nowg evans.xd markets rebound. does that mean powell and compw.ó think there could be more pain ahead?l ther good for the stock m!&ket. he'll make his case, tell us where he's putting money to work. and no further ratelp hikes shod be good news for home buyers, right? notw3 necessarily. we'll look at what it means for the spring housing season. fá tiktok's ceo testifying o capitol hill, reassuring lawmakers the app isi] not national security threat as multiple states take action against it, and joe biden

considers an outright ban. we'll have the implications for the rest of the social mediaa5■ landscape. >> >> but first, to today's rallyì% dom chu has the action. dom? >> it is a rally. at one point,çó melissa this morning, we did see us get back almost all of thexd lossesq thae saw yesterda9x post thatlpe1 announcement. of course, post yellenxd commen to that senate banking subcommittee. if you look at the dow industrials right ñinow, 280 something points to thee1 upsid we were up north 480 somethinge 5a■d right now. that's part of the reason why. ñ seeing a bid for treasury bonds and notes, and therefore,

some of the yields moving lower. you can sep the ten-year notee1 yield, 3.45%.ñie1 4.81% for the six-month t-bill.q so those yields areçó starting price in a little "rú more of y we'll seel-jt the fed follows through with that prediction.çó also, today so fyr(■v this weekf you lookfá at thejf sectors tha een outperforming, it's energy and communication!u■ services. they're up 1%xd to 3%. the utilityñr sector has been a real and the stock of the day is not really oneñi that we talk about 5m■ of the s&p 500, but it's hindenberg research out with a bearish note. they say there is a short sellingxdfá situation here forw

block.fá people are paying attention to why block isi] in their t(targe. we'll see what happens here. >> dom, thanks. asy interest rates for an eighth time but kept their rate forecast unchanged. the next guest says this is about to end, with the fed r joining us is the chief economist at wells fargo and steve liesman is with us,ñr as well. great tos7■ zud you both. telegraphing there will be trouble ahead in the economy. there will beçó trouble ahead f banks, according to what we are seeing in terms of the banking sector stocks today. and there isçó a flighteq$uz sa going@ñáon, because the tech tre is still on fire. is that the right message that we should be taking away from the fed? >> a+lwell, i think what the fes c6 jay powell has been say thing consistently, they're probably going to be on hold for a long period of time.

you know, they want to see inflation come back down towardv the 2% target, and we're still g long, fálong, long way from tha. they may stop raisingfá rates he in may, but it's not like i think they will be cutting rateá come the third quarter. >> steve, how has theñie1 ÷-w out in fed funds futures since i ako you that,ñi becauseñr he pretty much said i don't see that in the kashds this year, @ as truth?fáe1fá >> okay. so it depends on your definition of pivot. is it a pause or a cut? >> a cut. >> a tf?ícut, okay. so>r■ we have that fed rate outlook chart in the back, and i'll take a look at it while ] there is a stronge1 expectation there is the january 24 one. what is that? wow, it's really down.çót(ym■ it keeps falling.+■

powell says no cut and the markets price inñi more cuts. it was atxd e15.40 açów3 couple ago. then it was 5.13 this morning, and now it's 4.08. so do thelp math. if futures market, is e1e1xd4.9. so there is, you know, call it 90, 85 basis pointse1 of cut bu. i cançó tell you, when that begins, it looks likelp the fir full quarterqxd built in, you know, by august or so. so that's where we're ña5■ another thing that's happened is the gap, which isq the s the fedc isht■ at 5.13.q the market is at ñr4.08. you do the math right there.ñr it'se1 morew3 than a full percee point of gap between the fed ani the market. i was just looking back at this, melissa.çó when the gap changed int( february, you remember welp wen

down from zero --çó sorry, it wp 75 basis points, then the market got in sync. the s&pçó went downrd5%. so that closing of the gap can >> xddefinitely. that's why i asked thgz questioñ what the market seems to be expecting, at least what the fed is t$t"graphing at this point, something to really break so need to cut. that to5a■ me is what t ñ chart!u■ tells ko■me.ñr i'm wondering howw3 you see it play out, givenxd axd banking có unfolding, et cetera? >> so there's a littley disconnect between the stock market and the bond market.ok you know, if the fed is going to i] of the year, i think it's because you're in real economic trouble at that point. it's not necessarily at( financl crisis, but you are in a recession right now, andñi i'mtt

a stock marketfá strategist, buz guess the question i would have, are stocks priced for a recession at this point? the s&p 500 is down maybe 20% from its peak?ñi that doesn't seem like a recession sort of thing to me. soq i think there's just a litte $ @r(t&háx going qon. either that, or the marketñi thinks that the fed is goingq3w blink, and at the trouble, they're going to start cutting. i'm not convinced of that.xde1 the primary culprit they are trying!vo deal with is inflation, and they want to see that comee1 back down. >> steve? looks like you want to jump in. >>t( yeah, it'sñi interesting t, the question is how do we get there, right? i think there's some expectation in the market now that the fed comes down to where the market is, in part because of some5a the realities tható[■ we're tal■ about, which i;pq"it tightening in the economy. you0l■jfq think. butv

saying, i don't think a credit *q ñokq if indeed that's howxd+■3w■ we lower inflation. so i think it's not crazy, and i don't know, by the way, even though powell said he doesn't think we're cutting this year, he also said they're going to bi guided by what happens with credit markets and how that impacts the economy. huge about face for powell andi the fed in fact to cut this year, if, in fact, we do have a really and serious negative fallout from the creditñr tightuo i'm not sure, lpmeliss[+ñ we're talking about that kind of big enough event for that to happen. so far, what we have seen seems are talking about and some of the regional banks. >> in terms of the credit tightening part of the evasion, htening on its way cf1 o banking sector. i mean, we knew that from the seniora5■xd officer loan servic. we'ves7■ had the datac points. how do you see this, plus the

lag effects of prior rate hikes impacting the economy?w3q so if you thought there was going to be a recession this year, and we do, i think you see what's happened in the last twoo weeks is raising the probability of that, and making the recession deeper than what it was before. again, we're not talking 2008 sort of|■çó -- 2009 sorts of numbers. we think it's going to be a recession, and the credit markets have just gotten much tighter in terms of bond spreads moving out. i would think in coming weeks,v you're going to see credit tightening.a5■ and i think that all acts as a head wind on economic growth. and that --i] coupled with thati think we're looking at a re##m%=9■ starting later this summer and in the fall. >> stev >> so i was poring through that senior officerñr survey this

senior officerñr survey this morning, melissa,ñifá of after powell raised it as a key q policy, and just to t( jay's point, you see theq%%9 was inq both large and medium ad all responding banks. there it is again. this is theb.■ percent of banks that are tightena■ their credit standards. it's not where it was ivñd■ñi t pandemic, not where it was inym the great finan@y1■."■ crisis,x it is quite a bit higher than it was previously. it has to do withñi commercial d industrial lo loans forñieiitááá(rp&ko■ space. but not mortgages. that!8páháhe one xdarea,ìáhp &h% interestingly enough. it looks like they're letting credit standard inok thelp mort business. i will say goldman sachs has an impact potentially thing you're looking at here of gdp. i haven'tlp rgen the estimated impact on inflation. but it's going to have an5a■>d

impact, justq perhaps not catastrophic. howlp focused this is. we already saw the impact on the feel the most pain6z■ñi from th come because of the difficulties in the smaller and regionallp banks. guys, thank much. good to see you both. our next guest says the bank stress is a tail windxdt( for t stock market. yt( vilorry. how do you square credit tightening? how does that help the markets? >> yeah, the big problemçó we he right now, obviously, isr if you have tighter credit e1 markets, banks are struggling, the regional banks are the i think that could be a positive for the stock market, since there's so many negatives out there. fe already pause andq perhaps goqh lower in rates by the end of the

year. >> you are assuming it will be enough.ç$ r(t&háhp &hc% so far, even with the rate an impact. we see theñi impact on tightert lemdzing standards. we have not seen the impact on jobs, for instance. therefore, we haven't seen the impact on inflation lpmuch. you think this time it's going to work. >> yeah. there's stille1 1.9xd jobs avaie that's what the fed is trying to do is takeq that sy throw a cold towel on the economy. i think it's happening much quicker thant( weñi all anticipd again, that negative for the economy, getting inflation down, is going to be a positive for q-jáñ stocks, but for have already seen so far this year, with the nasdaq up over 14%. it's been a heck ofñrr given what is to come.ñi >> so you see that the move in the nasdaq more9ai the economy won't slow down as much as weñi think, versusçó ao

more defensive because of the cash balances, et cetera. is that ñicorrect? that's right. and also, it's a catchup from 2022, where we sawxd growth underperform value by about 30%. soxd we're seeing that, you kno kind of push up tech stocks, as well. but it's telling us that rates are probaig■i] going to go lowe. when you look at the bond market, you look at the two-year,t(u■ it's incredible. but rates are probably goingbz lower, pushing tech stocks higher.i]r >> i want to get to your pick,x sandy. they are growthy names. why do you like these at this point?ñre1 >>ñi ceasar's, it's a bit contrarian, because it's expose some xddebt. so as interest rate goes up, thatçó should impact them. they have ae1 lot of opportunities. they can sell a strip asset.

they have an incredible ceo and they're bringing in a lot of money right now overxdlpqt( the four tournames/ñ,■ as we seek. andu■ thenr and lastly, fre or copper for electric vehicles that uset( four times the coppe of a combustion engine car, and there's not enough copper out there. it takes axdñi decade to mine f more copper. so■i i like the way the supply d demand is lining up. free port has been uwígr pressure. >> sandy,xd thanks. >> thank you,ñi martha. coming up, a ray of die x%. we'll look at what itñ means fo

crypto space. how will the fedi]q rate hi hit real estate? housing market to find its footing. and a quick check on the 'rkets here. we continue our gains across thq thetñòl is up byxd almost a percent. the nasdaq up by 1.6%. netflix, which is sitting on a new multimonth high. te" is back this.ok my name is joshua florence, and one thing i learned being a firefighter is plan ahead. you don't know what you're getting into, but at the end of the day, you know you have a team behind you that can help you. not having to worry about the future makes it possible to make the present as best as it can be for everybody.

welcome ñiñie1back. stock. the s.e.c. is warning going beyondñi çóxdcoinbase thate1 ju caution around cryptoq assets. howqq worried shouldñi investor? emilie parker joins me now. great to have you with us. i guess there's a couple of things. there is this whole maybe flight to safety sortñi ofq aspects of bitcoin going on, and then that's ther it almost seemsçóçó like theq ft and what's going on in thet(p,■ banking sector as itg

banks that houseq cryptos9> i think it's fair to say that the regulatory environment inok the united states is decidedly under friendly towards crypto right now.q óe'q■ few months.e1 so on the oneçó hand, there's t1 happening. on the other hand, bitcoin's price isn't reacting that dramatically to these áip r(t&háhp &hc% i think there's aq few reasons one, because inçó general, what drives t(bitcoin's prqú1ñ it ha to do with the fed or interest rates.q that's been what is driving the price. even though we have seen this regulatory crackdown ina5■ the u.s., bitcoin has been doing .td the other thing to remember is that, you know, as we discussed before inv

kripto currency is all over the world. so even if the fcc cracks down +-■] overseas. oing to be seeing that%b@t-t&háhp &hc% >> are we basically sayinglpñr innovation ine1 bitcoin andw3 bq chain, we're willing to i]i]qce that here in the united states with what is going onq%ñ inxd t regulatory basis? >> i think it's fair to say they're saying that right now. it's notq so much that they're too strict. at least, according to crypto v advocates, it's too confusing. people don't know what ist( these two totally difñeq■çó ñr narratives. narrative and the fccb.■ narrat. the fcc says play by the rules, if you do, we'll work with you. but the crypto industry is saying we tried to play by your rules and tried to comee1 in th front doorñm9 asp wall. there's now3 path & fo

exchangu/[■ soe1 that's where the issuexdxd. we are hearing more and more of that, and we don't really know how to be safe here inx;■ the there's other place where is crypto exists. why not just go there? i think we!u■ will see that, an that may be÷ intention. >> what happens to the money invested in thesee1 projects?nb■ at least bitcoin asset class is doing well, andv the investment casee1 forht+ese projects. butok i would imagine that d.c. folks would be having cold feet in te"ms of putting money into a venture which may not have a clear regulatory path. >> great point. well, first, they can invest in projects outside of ther but you have hit the nail onñr e head in terms of the problem. no matter what the fcc does, it's fair to say crypto isok no going away immediately. it's not going to xddisappear ñi overnight. and you're still going to5a■'c■

american d.c. capitalists an÷( investors that will find ways tñ invest in this. by pushing crypto currency overseas, you're giving theu■ ì% less control of it. sou■b.■ i think you can make th aboutw3 invm&qor çóprotection,x over what's going on. as you xdknow, a lot of the gre damage that was inflicted on u.s. investorsó[■ were overseas projects. that's because, you know, part of theq reason is that thñ(t( f didn't seemxd to have any waa■p get them to play by the rules. they were outside the u.s. >> i wantedñit(u■ to get your t the move we have seen in thejf o price of bitcoin. if there is ap,■ magic want wav and the banking system is deemed stable and secure andht?s& the problems are solved, how much

wo;xx■ bitcoinçó give up? >> i think that's an interesting ½p%9■t, so there's añ)h&ot of different takes on this. all the crises happening in thì% banking sectorçó is sort of pro why bitcoin shouldt( exist.i] thee1 whole point of bitqbitcoi doesn't require a bank, or a third partye1xd fáintermediary. crypto does need b9n%9 degree, but there is one narrative that says all these crises int( the banking industr is a vindication of theé@■?;■fá industry. ñ ofu■ bi"#rin's pricey action appears to be acting that way. but on the other hand, you xdkn, in the current moment, especially in the u.s., you some degree toe1 transfer bitco to fiat orbit coin to dollar. so that aspect of it, if therer isxd a crackdownxd on crypto

friendly banks, that will industry. coming e1up, tiktok's ceo i testifying on capitol hill as congress weighs banning the app inq the united states. plus, the fallout for advertisers and socialr stocks. stocks. take a & k att( the what if you were a major transit system with billions of passengers taking millions of trips every year? you aren't about to let any cyberattacks slow you down. so you partner with ibm to build a security architecture to keep your data, network, and applications protected. now you can tackle threats so they don't bring you to a grinding halt. and everyone's going places, including you. let's create cybersecurity that keeps your business on track. ibm. let's create have you ever considered getting a walk-in tub? well, look, no further! safe step's best offer, just got better! now, when you purchase your brand new

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matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire welcome back to "the exchange." markets are higher, althought( q■ levels of the day.

v 4 points, but right /÷now, it's u points, but righb points.it's u till the biggest mover of them all, up by t(1.5%. netflix ise1 leading, after a reportr subscriptions in canada is improving.q it'st( the fástreamer's biggest market outside of theñre1 u.s.t( elsewhere, solar stocks in5a■ t thet( phase three trial shows t drug led to a 30% decrease inñi exacerbations.

those results pushing between aá nine-month w3high.qw3 regeneron is trading at an all-time high.xd and wednesday, march 29th, we'll hear from ceos, scientists and investors. to register forçó this event,p,n the qr code onq the screen or g to the website. now let's get to tyler mathisen for an update. >> great to see you, melissa. good afternoon, everybody. here is a look at what nato patrols are seeing in thefáxdv sea. nbc news obtained this video of what theiñá say is a russian su near the drilling platforms that provide a lot of europe's ñi energy. and underneath, vital gasw3 pipelines and telecomq xdátáks s well. after last year's sabotage of the nord stream pipeline, they can keeping an eye on the waters. in france, there are cities aroundqñi theq country againste

presidentñi macron's unilateral move to raise the retirement age toe1 64. in the northwest,u■ protestors threw objects at police who responded with water cannon and tear i]gas.lp outh a5■korea,5a■ a differec after escaping from a children's recapture workers who were able to corral it, with the help of a tranquilizer dart.çófá a wassy zebra. melissa, back to you. still çóahead, one number buried in today's home sales report that was a big surprise. and throughoutq march, we arelp celebrating women's heritage, sharing the stories of"n■ women business. here is morgan brennan. ♪ ♪ >> when i was in my 20s in college studying anthropology,

on an archaeological dig, i shaved my head. after i did at myself by mourning my hair loss. eventual!q÷q i'm braced it,r society'se1t( assumptions what life should look like. that's my advice to everybody. don't let anyone tell you who or what you should be in this world. challenge the status quo. even if you try somethingñi andt even if you try somethingñi andt doesn't work, you will be ♪♪ ♪ a bunch of dead guys made up work, way back when. ♪ ♪ it's our turn now we'll make it up again. ♪ ♪ we'll build freelance teams with more agility. ♪ ♪ the old way of working is deader than me. ♪ ♪ we'll scale up, and we'll scale down ♪ ♪ before you're six feet underground. ♪ ♪ yes, this is how, this is how we work now. ♪

welcome back. the hold builder etft(fá -- wh m is driving buyers these days, diana?lp >> theñi report was a bit of au sales popped up lp1% month to ñ month, but the raw number of sales was below expectations,

because january's big jump wasç revised down. this is based on signed5a■ contracts, so people out inking deals during the month. and mortgage rates fell sharply from their octoberñi highs, getting close■k to 6% in januar weq also sawçó a beat yesterday sayingi] that they continue to e strong buyer demand. albeit lowerq than a year ago. which begs the question, where areçó we with mortgage rates no? march kicked off over i]7%, and then5a■ dropped on the svb news. then recovered, and dropped yesterday. but rates didn't movet( much at all today, which means investors are trying to figure out if the fed isp,■ adjusting. regardless,ó[■ñi rates are till higher than they were at the start of lastw3ñi spring. while home prices are easing a o bit, they are still very high.

back toñi you.q >> a very important number that it is homes sold but not built. so what is the significance of that? >> yeah, it's homes sold, not even started construction yet. thisfá number has jumped really dramatically in the last two months. builders arefá probably going t be starting more homes. we have seenq housináp starts dp monthlxvo month, like when are they going to startq building again? what this would seem to indicate, they are going tozv■ e to put a lot of holes in the ground in the nextu■ coming months. the number of homes sold that are under construction or completed have dropped while the ones not started have jumped. >> diana, stay rightxd there. the next guest says housing is already in a recession, thanks to the high home prices, and it will take a long time toxd play out. mark isçó chief economist at moody's analytics. great to have you with us. the last time we spoke,jf mark,

think a banking crisisjf happen. i'm wondering how you think ability of buyers tow3 get that mortgage? dianai] mentioned a respite whì% it comes to mortgage rates, but we are going to be facing tighter lending standards. ';÷presidential mortgage loans, though. it might impact thexd jumbo par of the market on the margins, but usually those are bigger banks that make those loans and they're in pretty good shape. so the fallout from the b! crisis will be significant.xd it's going to affect the availability of credit. but that's from real estate loans,wkitááá(rp& industrial loans, consumer jfloans, less s for residential mortgagexd loan. >> mark, i was just talking about how they're going to have to do more construction to meet this growing demand. they rely very much on the regional banking system.

how is it going to "qt for them? >> good point. you're right, in terms of supply, in terms of the ability -- not so much that i don't think theó[■ publicly tra bu. they have access to lots of j of capital, so they can get the capital they need. the homeb.■ building market isñy fragmented. they rely on construction and land developmentxd loans from small and mid-sized banks, and they are going to have a hard time getting those loans. so the supply side of the markeq may be t(impaired as banks try work this through, and they add to thefb■] statistic 'f >> how does tightening credit play out in your mind when it comes to the impactñr on the i] economy, and t(qaq#ore, of course, housing ultimately?óá5%] you know, small, $x■mid-size ba ñ billion ine1 assets, that is th

bulks■m trex banking system.xd they account for half of allq wi loans, they account for half of alle1çó consumer loans. those are credit cards and unsecured personalxdñi lines. in terms of the housing market, part of the market that will be most affected is the multifamily market.jfxd in terms of multifamily they need to put up the next new project that we need those rental units and homes. so my sense is that, this is going to shavexd fámeaning■&lyqq of 0l■growth, and probably i]wo if i was going tov into rate hikes, at least a couple ratee1 hikes,q maybe thr tolpfá do now because the tight■ of credit conditions is a result of the banking crisis. i hope the script has been written, but maybe not. so given what's happen(ézçóçó s, i think theçó credit xdfallout

be quite material.t(ñiçóxdt( >> what is going to hap.euñ■ó i termst(r the equivalent of threeçó rate hikes,i]t( threefá that'sjf a l tighteñi9ñi]e1p,■ >> that's right."n■ you know, i think two, three rate hikes.t(xdé@■ but that is certainly a lot of 3 uncertainty. quarter poinxi which was the %-pmeeting, on top of effective two, threeñi rate hikes becausef the credit conditions.ñiqxdq that puts the federale1i]ñi fun3 target closer to 6. i think that'se1 significant an that puts the economy in jeopardy.

if i were on that committee yesterday, i would have strongly argued, qhey,e1 fáfálet's -- yo let's just happening to the banking system availability of credit and economic growth. we can come back and focus onlp inflation ife1 we need to do th, butñi the first priouxuvt( hasóe the stability of the banking system. of course, they did not do that. ejájjp risk here.ájjp >> mark, we know that the mortgage rates don't exactlye1 follow the fedçó funds rate, an they are being elevated more because of pressure on mbs from tit/÷ banking stress. given whatlp you're saying abou that, ifçó mortgaget( rates con? >> they're going down.qñi so house prices are going to continue to weaken, you know, over the next year or twoe1 or , you have to restore affordability. at the current house price, the u■$ income, singlea5■ housing famils

just unaffordable. for the typicalp,■ home buyer, buying the typical median pricer home at the prevailing ratexd o 20% down,nb■ they need toñi9■ c th mortgagegu÷payment. that's more than a third of their income. that's just not affordable. and i don't think we'll see any meaningful pickup in demand for housing unj that happens in one of three ways,fá lower mortgage lprates, @uju income, or lower house so ifá expect house prices to continue to come down.ok you have mortgage rates come in a little bit. further moderation decline in house prices. >> qmark, thank you. we have a news alert on the company responding tor christina? >> yeah, it waszv■ aht■b report two years in the making, according toñró[■ ú

but block, they say they spend to workçó the s.e.c. over this, but hindenberg is known forçó wt they call these types of attacks to allowxd short sellers to proo fromçó at( declining stock pricp today, the stocke1 dropped overq 12%.xd they said they have regular r disclosures, highly regulatedñi and are confident in their zv■ and the key b.■is, we will not distracted by typical short ta■ this is the first time block is responding to the scathing report put out by t(hindenberg, saying block misled investors about costs and the monthly çcár+e users, inplating thatxd number byc repeated e1accounts.d and finally, they said this is justxd hindenberg that is known for thesexd types of attacks an

benefitingxd from the price sto dropping. still ahead, the tiktok ceo testifying before congress, looking toñi fáe1reassure lawma and the public it poses no

welcome e1back. the tiktok ceo stillq testifyin on capitole1 hill. let's get the çólatest.ñi >> the ceoes beençó underxd questioningpf%i■ over three hours.q fielding bipartisan criticism for theu■ company's c/:xy ownership structure, and data security. he told lawmakers that tiktokú employees will not be able to access old user datañr after th storage project with oracle is complete, butt( acknowledged th company isv >>ñi today, all u.s. data is stored by defaultc -- >> ñrquestion, do any bytedance employers in china have access >> congressman, i would appreciate, this is a complex topic.xdq

today, all data -- >> yes or no. it's not that complex. yes or no, do they have access to userlp data? >> after this project is done, khe answer is n/é >> tiktok says thatt( data is fm before october 2022, and no data after that date has been stored. but this comes as lawmakers are galvanizing support for a ban on the app, and the bideñbftr(t&há% administration weighs whether there's ant(ñi alternative struc how the app could operate in the u.s.ñiçóokxd chu said with enough time and expertise, he believes tiktok could replicate that, but the jury is still out. >> when you think about tiktok and its reach, it's one of the fewq things that unite the american people, if you think @@out more than 150 million americans using the app on a regular basis.çóçó there aren't a lot of other things thatçóqqw3'c■ americans

on. and i understand the chinese app islp zv■xdpopular, but people w own ad ban tiktok? >> no, that'su■ whyñi the polit buck has been passed on this one back and forth.ó[■ you heard the commerceu■ secretp a couple ofñi weeks ago sayó[■ u ban tiktok, you lose every vote under the age of 35, which is something that the administration is xdçóacutely a( of. that being said, you know, congressbi4■ a -- is ax ■t(r so you have seen some supportqe% th} has been gal vantizing for that move. >> kayla, thank you. now to theu■ hearing and wh a potential ban would mean. shares of meta and pinterest have been higher on the notion julia has more on this lbvstory. i mean, if we think that a ban may be off the table, the question is how much could guard

rails help a meta or ar this point? >> this is a complex issue, and there isñ from both sidesg so i would say even if there is not the threat of a full-out tiktok w3ban, i would say that sale or dramatic limitations of tiktok's operationsop all of those potential threats to the future ofçó tiktok have ta, pinterest, all trading higher today. take a look atñrñi this chart t shows tiktok's popularity. 56 minutesñi spent daily on 4ñf 34 for twitter, and 31 for snap and instagram. this isv intelligence. moody's writing, a u.s. tiktok ban would benefit youtube, instagram and snap, resulting in higher ra+eáute1 share, saying

ìáhp f instagram, th"1e1 tiktok ban creates a smallerçóñit(xd reven opportunity. ban, writing ifxdçó tiktok were banned, it's 150 million million users and 2.8 trillion minutes would go to instagram's reels because most post their videos on reels and also to snap's spotlight which has the highest demographic overlap with tiktok. it is worth noting that there does seem to be a bipartisan push for new privacy legislation as well as section 230. all these platforms could be held liable for the content on their platforms. >> the security of data is one issue which seems is in the process of being addressed with project texas. you put that issue to the side. but the other line of questioning from congress has

really been about misinformation on the platform and you can replace tiktok with meta. you name all of the other big cap technology companies and they should face the same sort of questioning. is there a reason why there is such a focus on this because it is a chinese company more so than others? >> absolutely. there's this question of whether the chinese government is having an influence on tiktok and causing manipulation of the u.s. population as a result of that. >> but that is happening or can happen on u.s. platforms as well. that has been the case with so many people, right, that the chinese are using various social media platforms to manipulate americans' thoughts and opinions. >> what you're really referring to is this whole cambridge analytica scandal and the manipulation of americans by foreign actors. i think this is being treated differently and this is a very heated hearing with constant

interruptions of tiktok's ceo because of this idea that there is chinese ownership and because there is a sense as kayla just mentioned there is some user data that is not fully moved over to the u.s. just yet. so i think what's essential is even if there isn't a full-out ban, even dramatically limiting the operations of tiktok or forcing a sale of the u.s. operations of tiktok. this idea that forcing a sale could amount to a ban because bytedance might not want to make its algorithm available to a u.s. company. but the role of china, and bytedance being a chinese company, is really at the center of all of this questioning. >> julia, thank you. coming up, the s&p real estate sector is up today.

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commercial real estate values fell for only the second time since the great financial crisis. while the street is raising red flags about commercial lending, the pessimism about the death of offices is way overblown. joining us is a senior analyst at piper sandler. alex, great to see you again. the narrative that the office is

dead, this is before the banking crisis, why did that strengthen this narrative? >> melissa, thank you for having us on -- for having me on. here at piper sandler when we look at what's going on at an office, it reminds of what happened pre-pandemic. people thought people would shop online and every shopping center would close down. far from it. the issue is there's no equity buyer an no debt market. so unless you're a marquee building like 1 vanderbilt in new york or 555 in california, marquee buildings can get debt. but if you're not a marquee building, it becomes really difficult. right now what you're seeing in the stocks is a reflection that people don't know what to make of what's going on. companies, how much space do they need? what's going on with the cities? is everyone moving down to the sun belt? all of these concerns coupled with regulators telling the banks, hey, ease up on office

loans, we don't want you to make loans overlevered or regular landlords are saying if you don't cut us a deal we'll give you the keys back to the building. the bank says no, no, no, we'll make a deal to restructure that loan. all of that creates angst. hey, these stocks have really been hit hard, we're not ready to get bullish, but we thought it was worth taking the underweight rating off and moving it up to neutral. >> so what did you see, it's a valuation issue? what are you going to see in the sector that will make you feel like things will trade more along with the fundamentals of these stocks? >> one is the restoration of the debt markets, right? right now there is really no functioning debt market. it's not just for office buildings. you go around the different commercial property types and you can get a loan but if you try to do portfolio lending,

very difficult. sponsorship matters, the quality of the asset matters but you need the debt markets to come back. second is people need to feel comfortable with office where it's going. we all know we have too much of it and we need to figure out how much do we really need. we also have continued layoffs that you and your colleagues have been talking about, white collar layoffs, that impacts office. office. >> we've got go.to what if you were a global energy company? with operations in scotland, technologists in india, and customers all on different systems. you need to pull it together. so you call in ibm and red hat to create an open hybrid cloud platform. now data is available anywhere, securely. and your digital transformation is helping find new ways to unlock energy around the world. did you ever stress about us having three kids? no, that was always part of the plan.

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