wholeçó vocabulary that goes alg with golf at augusta national. it is not the front nine and and second nine. and patrons are not fans or spectators, they are patrons. when you canfáñrjf algorithmica build that into something. these are for highlight clips and e1çócommentary. it won't be realtime generated. >> yet. >> it's an experiment. >> nice knowing you, everybody. >> nobody better than dom chu, thank you for watching "power5a lunch." >> "closing bell" starts now. in a moment. 60 minutes to go in regulation. ■ fighting it out all day long as some of thexd quarter's

biggest winners lose steam today. techñ things down, the nasdaq under the most pressure. you see it there, names like microsoft and apple, there they are, taking a bit of a breather today. rates tracking higher, putting some pressure on the growth trade overall. energy, the leader, looking to bounce back even more, all of this■i leading up to our talk o the tape. where wasxd the fed and otherq regulators and svb's practices were repeatedly flagged by officials for years. by the time theñi sirens were blaring, it was too late. the collapse of the second largest bank failure in u.s. history. for more let's welcome in the "wall street journal's" tim timeros. it's good to see you. we know the bank was on notice and wall that we made all of the times that issues were flagged, and the bank's management is going to have to answer for that

we know that. here it is. from november of 2021, i want to know in your mind to what degree is the fed culpable. atçó the bare minimum, were the asleep at the wheel? >> that's the right question, too soon to know, obviously, when a bank fails,w3 following period ofok elaborate redesign, which isñió[■ supposed to stop sorts of things from happening, and because interest rates were going up because the fed was5a■ trying to get ahead of inflation, that's the problem that it required intervention b1 regulators. supervisors have their finger on the pulse of what's happeningfá but failed to escalate in a timely way or did the board in d.c. not take the warnings from bank examiners and supervisors more seriously, should they have been doing a better job of understanding what the effects were of their monetary policy on the banking sector?

these are all questions that needs to be an)fq)ed. i can bet they're going to get answered. i don't know if we know the answers right now. >> yeah, we know that the fed was tolde1e1 in february of e1' right, last month, of some of the more severe issues that were plaguing the bank. we don't know what happened after there, what the fed thought, what the fed did, do you think we ever will? >> i hope we will. eventually, all the facts should come out. we had a story in the paper yesterday whereu■ we talked to eric rosengram, the former president of the boston fed and y%m=ie%ujttááhráhxd iterative. it is not built for speed. it isn't made to move rapidly. this may be, you know, the first sort of test of the 21st century potentially runs, right, these sort of media. the fact that sort of shocked me, really, out of the hearing

today was when michael barr,fá e fed vice chair for supervision said after losing 42 billion in deposits on thursday, the bank management told regulators one1 friday morning they thought 100 billion more might go ouá3 the door on fridant so 85% of your depositsi] could move that quickly. i do think that's a game changer for thinking about the stickiness of deposits, especially the business deposit stickier. know, our own steve liesman was flabbergasted by that as well, and tweeted as much, which begs the question, (hm■ not like mobile banking, nick, is new. does the fed not appreciate the degree to which moneye1 moves i our system? and ifxd not, how in the world would that be possible? >> well, yeah, it seems very likely that people didn't appreciate howjf quickly the moy could move.

this is a bank that didn't seem to be an obvious distress onq tuesday. after that announcement of the capital raise on wednesday night, alle1 hell broke loose o thursday. the other fact that got my attention, which was in martye1 grudenberg's testimony, the chair of the fdic, the top ten ac-.ezts ore1 depositors of thi bank had $13.3 billion. the concentration risk and the ability for thoseok concentrate deposits to move very quickly, i do think that's a game changer here in terms of5a■ thinking ab, well, this is what we thought@5b knew about, you know, money ant banks, and deposit run risk. >> you know,e1çó i can't help b also think, you know, whenever there's a change in any level oá leadership within the fed, we mentioned these titles,e1 we th■ out names of people, and we say, onet(e yet. the seat hasn't been filled, and

in this case, it appears to be so acute because the vice chair of supervision's role went unfilled for nearly a year at the very time, the issues that i showed you on our wall at the topw3u■ of this interview were happening, which begs the question, do you think that played a role in any way. ? >> i think that'sxd an interestg question. randy corrals, his term hadu■ a fixed end date, he was no longe1 the vice chair of supervision.e1 president biden's nominee, which was his second nominee for the job, michaelfá barr,e1 doesn't confirmed until july of 2022. those mrnas that you were referring to earlier, activity is getting flagged during the period where there's nobody in the top seat. it will be interesting to see whether that could have had an

effect. if you don't have somebody who's the king or the queen in that job, does that add an extra process? >> yeah, i mean, i'm>3+re someone is listening to this okay, maybe that's valid. you sthll have a san franci&=■ fed president. mary daly, is still the chiefó[ bank regulator in that region. if you want to characterize her as that, where was she? >> i think that's going to be one of the questions here, you know, where supervisors identify or needed to iñeráify and flagging it to the right people, and was that information getting to the board? i mean, the board in washington úxm■ ultimately responsible for the more aggressive consent orders and enforcement actions that need to happen, and i think that will be one of the very important pieces toe1e@jááá$jt these reviews, what was getting flagged, when was it getting flagged, how was it getting escalated and didfá it get to t place where it needede1 to get to, you know, to get more

aggressive, if that's what was needed, and it does seem like that's what was needed. >> ñryeah,i] i don't want to lef go without turning to the other obvious issue as it relates to the fed, and that's what happens in the weeks and months ahead. i don't know if you had a chance to hear my conversation yesterd9yb with jeffreyóom gund of doubleline, he thinks the fed is going to cut two times this year. when you hear people make predictions like that against a market that still thinks there's a 50% chance of another raise in may, where t(fb■ bar lies at th point, to the degree which the fed would consider cutting? would it take another bank u.x■ failure, greater seize up in the credit markets, what do you think? >> i don't know, scott. i have been hearing since last julyw3fá people talking about r cuts sixe1 months ahead, eight months ahead, and obviously the people saying that last t(july, you know, that's not what's happened. it does ma sense for the market to price this in to the

extent that you have a fed saying they think the long run real rate or ñisorry, the long n nominal neutraljf rate is above 2 1/2%. once the fed suggests they might be done, it's natural for the market to price in as the fed says in normal times we think 2 1/2% give or takenb■ the right place to be.xd we're close to 5%. i'm not surprised to see the market pricing in cuts. it's way too hard to tell, how much is this going to slow down the economy, when it's going to break more things in the kitchen here, and how the fed is going to react? >> it's going to be fun to watch, to say the least. nick, i appreciate your time, "wall street journal" joining us here at the top of the show. we're going to get more into this issue as well, when we're joined by the former u.s.lp depy treasury secretary, roger altman in a few moments, he has thoughts on this topic we just discussed and we'll continue it. we have a few days to go,

the market defined by the run in tech ande1 growth. for more on what lies ahead, dan greenhouse of solis,xd victoriad green, a cnbcçó contributor. dan, i'll go to you first, do you have expectations of cuts by the fed?u■ since we left it with timeros there, more peoplee1 seem too. >> to nick's point aboutlp how long people have been calling for rate cuts is apropos of the situation now in the sense that it's been probably about a year that people have constantly called for rate cuts, and truthfully when you look back 25 years, the street is notoriously bad at forecasting where the fed fund's rate is going to be. every time it's going up, each successive rate hike is the lasq one, each successive rate cut is the last one.cm cf1 o my gut is inflation is pretty high. the issuese1 with the banking sector right nowq are largelye1

idiosyncratic. i don't think there's a systemic issue, in the sense thatw3 peop are using the word systemic. theko■ imminent is too much. >> the equity market, stocks were up lastq week? k strong run. credit spreadsçó have widened o a little bit. you have tremendous moves in the futures markets in terms of rate hikes and cuts. with respect to the nasdaq, which is where?7 everyone'se1 f is. >> and rightly so, the way that tech u7jt)j have just jumped ahead of everything. >> sure, but i spend a little time, when youfv% headline, it's weaker than suggested. if youçó break up the nasdaq to quintiles the top quintile is up, the four others are lpdown. how many stocks are going up versus how many are going down going up. the percentagee1 of the market

an up trend has declined as well. at the same time, we shouldn't bee1 lured to sleep soe1 to spen saying that everything is all well in the nasdaqlpçó and s&p wherever if most of the carrying is being done by the topçó portion. >> victoria, i mean, you have been moru■ late. i think you declared to me on this very program that we were in the midst and early stages of a new bull market. i'm wondering if you're reconsidering that given the events that we've haql over the last, you know, fewçó weeks? >> içó might want tofáok walk t back a little bit. it's been a teflonq market. the heavy weights are pushing hard. they are being supported byçó a weaker dollar and the potential of a fed rate hike which should help growth stocks. for us, we're moderately, a tad bit bullish, but mostly neutra$ reprieve. what happens at pce, go back to data watching, you know, we'll

seeçó if we have anotu bank failure or not. i don't think the fed is ever going to signal hikes unless they feel they really have to. they're not going to make a policy changeq like that on a guess or a, hey, we mightxd cut rates. they're only going to announceua rate cut if things have gotten so bad they feel that's the only option on the table. i don't think you're going to see it telegraphed. the market is gambling a little bit. fe to cut unless they see the ba pick up. >> i'm wonderingñi how you can still be a tad bit bullish? i'mxd not suggesting that you shouldn't be, but if you don't think the fed is going to cut. if you're still concerned about what lies beneath, so to ñrspea what allowse1 you to even be incrementally more bullish than bearish? >> you didn't see thee1 technics completely break down. we're in purgatory, no man's land. number two, stocks run when they're not expected. if you looki] at how the market

reacted, the financials and energy sectors sold off. you saw everything else unilaterally hold up well.e1 i think you need quality, cash flow, you don't need companiesñ losing money right now. i think you need to be prepared r(tf o tightening. we're seeing that. we're seeing layoffs and we're ñ investors, we're companies that are making hard decisions in order to protect their profit margins, and we see profitability. i think when we get into q1 earnings outside of financials and potentially energy, who do you think ise1 stocking back. continued spending, people traveling, eating out, continuing tu1 shop. if you look at the consumer and the house of the country, i know we're all expecting this horrible data deluge but it's just not coming. we have seen continued strength. >> yeah, we have, but we know that the bank crisis, the mini one that we went through is going to have and probably has hade1 some impact on sentiment. i would ask you, the idea that this has been the great off

sides rally of 2023 so far, o one came in expecting tech was going to start to run away to the degree thatómo it h probably figured i'll go with the 2022 playbook, energy, et cetera, et cetera, it's been reversed. does it revert back or not? >> tf%mq1ñ i think certainly there's nothing about a turn in the calendar that means your investment environment is suddenly different. if you look in '08, youq contine until march. in 2002, the bear markete1 continued more or less until march.e1 obviously october was the i think like a lot of people, i/we were caught off guarde1 by the adjustment in the market to start the year, but that was also a fun!mion of the renewed optimism about the idea that whatever recession was urther down the road than originally thought. it was expected to be in the first half of the year, and now i think the street is probably looking for a recession on the back half of the year. >> rates havee1 come down, with concerns about growth. >> sure. >> there's good cash flow with tech.

i mean, it's not that difficult to figure it out. >> no, it's not. to the point i made earlier, a lot of the heavy lifting is done by big names. the wholet( idea behind tech rallying with int%-[oq■ rates i in terms of discounts in your cash flows. if you're google and microsoft and the like, a lot of cash on't have to wait five, t[.$ @r% years to realize that some of the other names, that's thenb■ case. again, i think this gets backq o the optimism that was built into the market to start the year that ran into a bit of a head wall in the form of what happened with the banks. nin situation. if i could spend a whole segmenp really argued in favor diosyncr moment in time. >> victoria, lastly, quickly to you, do you buy into the tech rally or do you fade it? >> i do. i think right now they're kind of a safe place to hide.

bit of push back this week. they've got the balance sheet, and i don't want to say they're■ cheap, no, they're not cheap. relative to where they have been trading, i think they're kind of a safe place for companies less correlated to financials and energy. they're not as expensive as staples right now. i do think some of the mega cap tech is attractive. especially the hiding place right now. >> good stuff, guys. thank you very much. talk to you soon. it is our twitter question of the day, we want to know who or what is to blame for the svb failure. regulators, bank management, the fed's monetary policy or all of the above. to @cn"?ó(sju)jq&l. we'll pose that question to u.s. deputy treasury secretary roger altman. he joins us after this quick break.

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welcome back, 40 minutes left to go in the trading day. we're negative across the board, as you can see. let's get a check on some of the topt( stocks to watch. kristina partsinevelos hepev wih that. >> session lows as apple unveiled a buy now pay later for apple pay users where they can split purchases intoe1 four payments spread over six weeks, zero interest, no fees. a firm put out ,á statement, an #■ey said the more payment options displacing credit cards, the better, quote, the prize remains massive and a firm is well positioned to win. affirm shares, though, down 80%

in a year. lucid right now is the worst performing stock on the nasdaq 100. it's down about 7% on anlp insir report that the company is planning to layt( off 18% of it work force. cnbc.com has reached out for confirmation but the stock is down, what, about 17% this month alone after competitor rivian laid off 6% of its staff last month, and then tesla cut prices on some ev models. definitely taking a hit. you can see shares down 7%. >> thank you. see you in a bit. the failure of silicon valley bank, the topic asw3 key regulators testified before the senate banking committee. among the regulations thañt svb was flagged multiple times since 2021, for issues regarding its mana!osq't and risk taking. it raises the issue of who knew what andjf when and why more wasn't done to reinv the bank's more questionable practices. with us, senior chairman, former u.s. deputy treasury secretary roger altman. it's good to see you.

welcome,fá thanks for being her. >> thanks, scott, how are you? >> who holds the blame here, do you think? >> well, i saw your poll question, and my answer would be alllp of the above.e1 obvi'3ásv a supervisory failureá i think that's screamingly clear. i'm not sure the what board ofe bank was thinking, but they ey didn't do their qjob, and if yo step way back, this banking crisis, and hopefully we're turning a page on it now, was avoidable. why was it avoidable? because if theq fed had not originally misjudged inflation to the degree that it did,raujz it would not have boxed itself in and been forced to engineer the most rapid tighteningp,■ in

decades. and interest rates wouldn't have risen as rapidly, and the /ax co dura+ downfall of silicon valley bank, and some others in that system wouldn't have happened to the same degree if at all. so this is unfortunate because it didn't have to happen. having said that, i mean, nothing like 2008. not ate1çóe1 all. >> right. you know, bankçó management. they mismanaged their risk. the fed was late to thew3 game. they waited too long, then raced too fast and it caused many of these issues to happen. unless you look at the time line of how thingsu■ñr transpired. the flags that were raised, the sirens that actually started to go off. fed vice chair barr today revealed the bank was rated a 3 by regulators indicating it was not well managed. those were his words. also deemed to befáq deficient, quote çóunquote, at the holding

company level, alsonb■ indicati that it was not well managed, again, his words. so what responsibility, then, was it to the regulators, the fed? where was lptreasury? where was the fed? where were others when it seemed were simmering issues at this bank andk+'body did anythingr until it was too late? >> well, let's parse that question. first of all, the treasury is not directly a regulator.c@ cf1o and the treasury does not have any supervisory responsibility relative to financialok institutions. secondly, this episode has revealed that at least part of thei] 2018 roll back in dodd-frr was a 1)mistake because the ide ñ roll back that you assets or more to be subject to

the most conservative ratios on capital liquidity, leverage, and the most frequent stress test was, in retrospect, afá bad ide because silicon valley bank, as we can all see, was systemically important. otherwise the united states government wouldn't have moved mountains to rescue it, at least in terms of the depositors and so forth. and yet it wasn't subject to the right types ofó6# control. so this is just a very broad 5a■ failure, and i know, because they said so, that the fed andu the san francisco fed in particular is going to do a top-to-bottom review of how this happened, and how do we be sure it doesn't happen again, but there's a lot of5a■ blame here. . >> i t(mean, it sound like the n francisco fed is goingxd to be

doing a review of itself, i mean, in somefá respeq7áy because there are, you know, some who wq5t say they'reok the ones who are especially asleep at the wheel. it was their region, and i know that>)urjçó fashionablelp now t suggest that the rollback in regulations from thee1 trump administration are, you know, at least high up in the conversation of where the blame should lie, but maybe it's not the regulationsçó themselves -- >> part of it. >> sure. but maybe it's more the response than the regulation themselves. again, the flags were raised. the rollback had taken place, and yet nothing was done? >> yes, but ask yourself ifi] tt bank at its size that we saw just before it failed shouldn't ha*qq' subject to5a■e1 the most frequent stress tests. of course it should have been. or5a■ the tightest ratios in te of the measures i mentioned a

minute ago. of course it should have been. so, you know, there has to be, i deposit insurance çósystem, whi i think has been revealed is out ofq date, and a forward view of dodd-frank, which clearly needs another revision. >> you know, the other thing, and i'll leave it with this last question to you because youxd raised the issue of stress testing. i mean, thexd fed change the rus so that this bank wasn't stress testedñi and if it was, it úd=■uldn't have made a differen anyway. zdause theb.■ banks were stress tested for an environment of falling interestu■ñi rates, not risingt( ones.u■ can you get your arms around that at all? >> wait a minute, scott. i mean, we've now beenñie1 in a ising interestu■ rates for many months.,jk> okay. more than a year. and if you'd been on the board

of directors of thatçó bank or e chief financial officer, i think you would have asked lpyourself okay, we're looking at theçóçó steepest or almost rapid tightening ofe1 monetary policyn 50 years and it's in the federaó funds rate go to nearlyfá 5% fr 0, what impact isi] all of that going to have on our stability and on our portfolio, and you would have looked into that. i mean, for that matter, you could probably asku■ñi chatgpt this minute, what happens if we have all of these characteristics andu■ interest rates rise a lot, and probably would have told you that what happens is prettyfájf bad. so it wasn't exactly a new development that interest rates had risen a lot there. >> e1no, but that's all we have regulators and supervisors to in essence themselves, from making dumb

decisions. there's supposed to be somebody watching out for the bad decision making, right? >> yes, look, it was a supervisory failure. g■ who has looked into this agrees on that. it was also the failure of the board of directors and theok management. and if my memory serves, the ceo of silicon valley bank was on the board of the san francisco fed. thing. >> yeah, yeah. and like5a■ i said at the outse the bank's management is going to have to answer for many if hink we know that, and u&l of that happens. i appreciate your time so very much. we'll talk to you soon. >> scott, thank you. >> that's roger altman joining us on "closing bell" for theq more on the senate banking committee hearing, doe1 not mis sheila bair in okot.

sheila bair in okot. the sector

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welcome back, the recent rally in tech taking a breather today with interest rates back on the rise. the space does remain one of the standout performers this year as investors return to the mega cap world amid more market volatility.ó[■ joining me to discuss, lou■ ton of flexo capital. good to see you again. >> good to see you. >> it's an incredible run we've witnessed. as i said at the outset, barely anybody was positioned for. whate1 do you make of it? do you think it has the possibility of lasting into the new e1quarter, how do you see i? >> i'm excited to see the attention, but we have to recognize what environment we're hopefully in the back end of, which is what's happening in the

appears that people look to investors, look to the tech sector ase1e1 almost a safe hav with the run upt( ofwáát of thee stocks. we need to recognize that a lot of dynamics that were impacting the tech stocks last year, concerns about a slowing economy, those are still in seeing now is,p,■ you see the flailing financial crisis, and being averted, peopleçóe1 turn r attention back to interest rates. >> does it feel thatçó way, youe really in the heart of where all of this took place, out in silicone1fá valley. does it feel like the fire is out or does it feel like the fire is out but the site is still smoldering and you're not sure whether there's going to be another flash up, flare up?eko w >> without question,çó you knowi think when we look at thet( isss

that face silicon valley bank and as some of the guests appropriately pointed out.5a■ a lot of these were due to mismanagement of the duration of thei] instruments thatjf silico valley invested into, mainly mortgage-backed securities with the excess deposits that resulted from theq big run up i venture capital, and you know, that led to the ultimate demise, along with sounds like there wasn't some oversight that was also needed, so i think with qgp)d to thexd private w3compa, we still are note1 out of the woods entirely. in particular, there is a big valley offered as a result of all the products. sector, look, i don't think we're going to have any immediate impact. i don't think there's necessarily another shoe to drop

specific to w3svb for the publi sector. however, i think we do have some other things to watch out for in the public sector forq those >> you know, i'ma5h&ooking at shares of affirm, before i let you go, i can't help but ask you about this one, down 9% today on this apple pay later announcement. what do you make of what apple z and what the impact is going to be on affirm and others who thought they, you know, had a pretty good stake i1 this space. >> this is classice1 apple play book. and angela strange pointed out every company is becoming !■( financial services company. hae amount of services revenue. right nowe1 it's at about $80 billion for '22. and think about that, that's more than the revenue of nike, boeing, coca-cola, and that's just their services revenue. that's about 20%. and what apple wantsw3 to do is they want to increase the amoun1

of services revenue and5a■ havi this optionñi to buy now pay lar is a great way to do it, it's no friction, it will be the apple experience, a better experience than the financial services company can do, and they've got a low customer acquisition cost because it's really easy to just tap into their existing base. so, you know, i think these are the types of moves that we should watch, you know, this is really on the part of apple because they're increasing the stickiness of their overall ecosystem so that they can reduce their reliance on iphone sales to drive revenue. >> interesting. we'll talk to you r thank you very much. >>çóñi thanks very having me. >> you bet. biggest moversçó as we head int the close. kristina partsinevelos is back with that. >> what consumer slow down, scott? one retailer stock ise1 soaringn strong demande1 for its clothes. i'll have that and much much more after this short break.

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kristina partsinevelos is back with the key stocks to watch asñuz head toward the close. >> let's start withc alibaba, splitting into six separate groups, each with the ability to raise outside funding and of course go public. baba shares spiked on the news

as this represents the most significant reorganization since jack ma founded the firm 25 years ago. pba shares continue to soar, up almoste1 20%, the parent compan of tommy hilfiger, and calvin klein reported strong top line k growth. credit suisse raised the price target to 93 bucks. shares at $88. still some room to grow. but can lululemon do theñi same. expectations are low for the retailers earnings out after th1 bell. scott. >> last chance to weigh in on twitter, who or what is tot( ble for the collapse of 'ík the regulators, the bank w3manageme, the ñifed, the monetary policy all of the above. head to @cnbcclosingbell on twitter. the results after the break. what if you were a global bank who wanted to supercharge your audit system?

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zero neti] cash [ cheering ] >> as we head towards the end here, again, look at micron inñ■ matter of seconds