who had their car stolen are entitled to anything >> i like kia, nice car. >> somehow feels better he can't make more sense out of. >> thanks for watching "power lunch." "closing bell" starts right now. ♪ ♪ welcome to "closing bell." i'm scott wapner right here at the new york stock exchange. this make or break hour begins with another new high for nasdaq yes, it's turned negative now, but it opened strong it's on track for its longest weekly winning streak in four years. now questions about whether it's too stressed and if the hype of ai has pushed those stocks to the limit. your score card with 60 minutes to go in regulation looks good for the dow good for near triple digits. s&p a modest loser

nasdaq, obviously, a winner of late, loser by near 1% tech, well, it tried to skjump there's the russell 2000, up 2%. marko kolanovic is here. is this too exceptional? >> it is too kexceptional. the breadth has been narrow. some of the largest companies tied to artificial intelligence. it's stressed. it's hard to say it cannot go more, but we think it's in a bubble domain already now. i think it's too late and, you

know, i would think that we could see the pullback there little bit for sure seeing today with the nasdaq down 1.5%. >> why do you think it's a bubble you can say i think these stocks have run too far too fast. to go to the bubble step appears to some a little extreme >> perhaps look, when we look at the valuations and the pes of 100 or 200, of course it can go more. it's not something that, you know, value investors should feel comfortable i have a little value bias we cannot say it can go more, but one needs to acknowledge the multiples and also the fact these stocks when technology went up went up with interest rates. the interest rates moved higher and tech moved higher and that typically doesn't happened. >> you hit the nail on the head.

value investors, the ones who have been run over by this move, at what point do you say, you know what, this value move that i thought was legit isn't? this is where the action is. ai is where the spending is. ai is going to drive earnings and that's going to justify the reason these stocks are where they are now, but why they can go further. >> that's a theme. that's a narrative that's a best-case scenario. my argument would be that ai is not a new thing. it's at least five to ten years development and will be for many years to come. there will be winners and losers some of the shifts may be a zero sum gain my counter argument would be it's not something that happened three months ago it's not 100% clear how it's going to play out. when you see every company that mentioned ai rallying, that's a

little bit as an investor makes me worried. >> why aren't you more optimistic about the market overall in the face of -- let's face it, it's been a stronger more resilient market than you expected, and you're not alone there are many that did not see the magnitude of this move coming the dow jones is at 33,680 the s&p 500 is on the doorstep of 4,300 >> the reason we're not more positive -- this resilience is remarkable the reason why we were not is because of interest rate shock in the past year we had 500 basis points increase. that's not even to mention the markets don't care about gio politics and the energy crisis the increase in interest rates should have a negative impact.

fed wants to create, engineer slowdown we don't see this as a new cycle. we think this is the sort of the last innings of an old cycle which needs to end if the fed is going to keep rates this high and keep it in the restricted area it's hard for me to get excited. of course, we need to acknowledge that markets showed the resilience i'm not yet convinced that it's going to be breaking towards a new high i think we're probably at the higher end of the range. over time i think it's going to be very hard for the market to move higher before fed cuts the rate >> i was going to say what about what would be an amazing ending to this story. there's no recession and inflation does come down and the fed actually is done and economic growth remains pretty strong and the consumer hangs in there.

i don't think it's that far fetched of a story to come together >> it's possible in my view it's not impossible, i agree with that. inflation just goes away on its own and the fed decides to start cutting the rates. as i said, i'm not in that camp. as this resilience persists we're soul searching and asking ourselves did we misjudge the possibilities? then you look at the different indicators, leading indicators, yield curve inversion, the geopolitical setup and this rate shock that doesn't percolate into the economy and i think that's a very optimistic interpretation that everything will play out perfectly and the cycle will re-accelerate again, we'll see in the next months i doubt that's going to be the

scenario. >> you've liked bonds and you made that clear in your notes. at what point do you say it's time to move out of that trade and think about -- whenever it's going to be ready to move into equities, but at least out of bonds, when is that? >> we have been bearishly moving out of bonds into cash because, you know, cash yields you around 5% bonds is quite a bit lower we've been going more defensive where you pick up more yields and waiting for the correction and acknowledging the correction didn't happen yet. so far, you know, in the cash -- analyzing 5%, this whole equity move from 4,000 to 4,250, that's about 5% i don't think right now you are missing a lot. you know, if the equities were to go higher, then clearly that will be the wrong assumption

right now 5% plus optionality that when the selloff happens you can step in and get more upside the cash or bond position is not just yielding, but it's also giving the optionality to buy if the pullback happens if the pullback doesn't happen, we will be proven wrong. >> what part, if any, of the equity market would you buy right now? would you buy anything >> maybe some of the defensive exposures, but it's not clear cut. when you look at the defensives, staples, health care, compare that to cash yield, the risk/reward is better in the cash with your cyclicals and growth stocks, growth rallied and tech rallied, so i wouldn't buy it.

cyclicals, they are cheaper, but if this recession happened, it's hard to sea se cyclicals rally. we'll see the other side of the cycle. both the value or the growth side now, you know, i'm skeptical. what you're left with are defensive and one can have some exposure there little bit contrarian also, maybe the emerging markets, china. china happens underperforming. maybe china can have an uplift from here. that's something i was looking at recently. >> you say defensive, that's exactly why people have been going into the apples, the microsofts, the metas, the alphabets. they view those as defensive, defensive against earnings deteriorations

their balance sheets are good. it's where the action is >> there's a quality element, but there's a cyclical element there. there's valuation there. if you look at the stocks you mentioned, the multiples have been going up quite a bit. there's less of a buffer of safety now than before second, there's a cyclical outlet if we do start losing jobs and get in a recession, you know, the tech spend, the highly priced gadgets, a lot of these things would be hit. there's sort of a hidden cyclical element in these companies that -- that's why i don't perceive them as a safe haven. i agree there's a quality element that will give them some resilience one point, if the interest rates were to drop, that would support the multiple multiple is already pretty high. i have a little bit of mixed feelings about viewing these

stocks as a defensive. >> understand. you always make us think marko, thank you so much getting some news out of faa over this reduced visibility from this incredible wildfire smoke in our area and elsewhere. phil he bow has the latest >> reporter: the faa is slowing down flights in the midwest and east coast into philadelphia earlier we reported that the faa announced it would be slowing down into laguardia. they resumed some flights coming in they slowed down the rate they're coming in. they slowed down the number of flights into newark. do we have the picture of newark right now? visibility is about a half mile. some flights are leaving from newark and laguardia and philadelphia if you're not getting that many flights in, you don't have the aircraft to turn around and take

off. this is very fluid, scott. within the last hour it's gone from a pause to slight traffic coming in at newark and when we reached out to the airlines, we said we're at the mercy of the smoke and whether or not the air traffic controllers feel it's safe for traffic to resume to normal levels. it's going to be sometime before we see that. >> incredible story. i feel thankful i got in late last night call your carrier, that's the bottom line. phil, thank you. keep us updated. let's more the conversation back to the market and bring in courtney garcia of payne capital and john merriman. john, i'll go to you first marko is not willing to say all's clear. it's time to be positive you've been overwhelmingly

positive are you moved at all by what he said >> a little bit. what i would say is large growth is looking less attractive no way around that semis look rich to us. it's not just technology home builders look egregious too. i would say in terms of the ai frenzy, this could go further. i looked at what intel got to in 2000 the answer is 3.8% if nvidia gets to 3.8% of the s&p 500, that would take it to a $1.4 trillion market cap there's precedent for the semis to move higher if you look at intel. investors should be relaxing exposure to large growth, technology and those areas. >> all right. >> we have a gift, scott midvalue and small value

the russell trading ten times earnings the s&p and at 18. we just looked this week and said, okay, let's go back historically to the late '80s and see every time the triple qs on a three-month basis beat the russell mid cap value by 15%, which just happened, what's the returns for the midcap value space? they kill it 88% of the observations the midcap outperformed on the basis of 15%. >> you want people to make the leap of faith there's not going to be a recession, that the leading economic indicators are wrong and we're not going to have an economic slowdown. otherwise why would i want to buy any of that? >> on the contrary, i think recession is possible. there's a lot of discounting

that's already occurred. look at the banking sector you have the recession priced. if you look at discretionaries, it's price. >> it's the best growth of the year what do you mean it's -- >> not in the retail if you look at apparel, it's steeply -- there are limited opportunities. lululemon is doing well. i would look at banks, rates the yield premiums are relative to the ten-year. we're bullish on the cyclical value areas. i would be moving away from large growth and tech. i don't think it's attractive. >> courtney, the floor is yours. >> i'm going to build on this. i agree that you're seeing these stretch valuations they're at nose bleed levels you have nvidia at 50 times

earnings apple looks better at70 times earnings realistically i don't see that continuing even though people are running into this as the safety traits. we want to see not just the top eight companies outperforming the markets. we need to see a larger breadth. last week we saw that which is a really good sign we're seeing general sectors doing well i do like value just to hone on that the banking sector got hit hard with the banking crisis. it seems to be subsiding there's plenty of opportunity in international emerging markets. >> on the idea that john puts forth, there are many people that say the shoe hasn't dropped yet on the commercial real estate issue that's not going to be positive for the banks, nor is a slower

growing economy. i'll throw it to john first. defend that call it sounds like in some respects courtney agrees with you. >> no question some of the real estate portfolios will be in trouble. one name we talked about before is alexander reality they cater to -- >> you can't blanketedly say -- >> we're identifying where we think the most attractive opportunities are. i think specifically if you move to banks, i would argue that the super regionals are particularly attractive they had to deal with higher regulatory costs historically, so they know how to handle that. you're seeing the widest dislocations between those and jpmorgan going back historically you're being paid to step in let's not forget nine months ago

nobody wanted home builders or semis. the rally has been going for almost a year. this is a year-long rally that occurred i would argue investors should be stepping into those area that is are uncomfortable if you go to google trends and type in artificial intelligence and look at the spike and go back to '04, it's pair bo lick it's going to permeate, but i think investors are paying a lot for that what also concerns me people are looking past the elevated interest rates and paying the same for the growth names. wait, you sold these because rates were high and now you're buying them at the same valuations >> it's suggested the valuations are justified based on the earnings growth we didn't know before the ai mania happened

their earnings potential has increased dramatically for companies like nvidia. they told you that the guidance shocked everybody and the stock was cheaper after earnings. >> to a certain extent that's going to be true that's the benefit of ai it's going to increase productivity and justify a higher valuations on these companies because of that. i also think a lot of this -- there's overexcitement that's been priced in, especially with a company like nvidia that's been priced extremely well i'm not actively throwing a ton of money at it because it's at such sky prices. i don't want you to be overexposed. investors that do things on their own might say i don't have much money in nvidia or netflix or amazon, but they take up 25% of the s&p 500 a lot of people you look at the mutual funds you own, you're

overexposed there. look at what you own make sure you don't have 25 to 50% in those seven stocks. >> in ten seconds, cash, more cash or no marko says cash is the best. what do you think? >> some cash, but no. >> guys, thank you courtney, john, thank you. our twitter question of the day, what is the better buy now, large cap tech or cyclical value? go to cnbc on twitter to vote. up next, rick heightsman is back to break down the risks around the ai hype what he thinks artificial intelligence could mean for the workforce, your portfolio and more we're live from the new york stock exchange you're watching "closing bell" on cnbc. fresh, warm hot dogs! when i'm not selling hot dogs, i invest in a fund

that advances innovations like robotics. fresh, warm hot dogs, straight out of my torso! one for you, one for you. oh, you're a messy one. cool, right? so cool. anyone can become an agent of innovation with invesco qqq, a fund that gives you access to nasdaq-100 innovations. hot dogs! fresh, warm hot dogs! before investing carefully read and consider fund investment objectives, risks, charges, expenses and more in prospectus at invesco.com. this is dr. arnold t. petsworth, he's the owner of petsworth vetworld. business was steady, but then an influx of new four-legged friends changed everything. dr. petsworth welcomed these new patients. the only problem? more appointments meant he needed more space. that's when dr. petsworth turned to his american express business card, which offers flexible spending limits that adapt with his business. he used his card to furnish a new exam room, and everyone was happy. built for dr. petsworth business. built for your business. amex business. i am here because they revolutionized immunotherapy.

built for your business. i am here because they saw how cancer adapts to different oxygen levels and starved it. i am here because they switched off egfr gene mutation and stopped the growth of tumor cells. there's a place that's making one advanced cancer discovery after another for 75 years. i am here... i am here.... because of dana-farber. what we do here changes lives everywhere. i am here.

welcome back the rise of artificial intelligence raising all sorts of questions now about the risks and rewards of this ground-breaking technology, especially when it comes to the future of work deep mine co-founder on "closing bell" in san francisco about how things might change. >> i don't think we're prepared. it's important to be aware this will be a dramatic transformation the benefits will be unbelievable we're on the cusp of unleashing a technology revolution. there are huge deficiencies and that will definitely change

jobs there's going to be a reshuffling of who does what and when the challenge for society is to make that transition in a smooth and possible way >> let's welcome back john heightzman do you agree or disagree >> i think it will be choppy people are going to be scared and wonder what happens to jobs. people will wonder what happens to them and people will wonder how do you make money from that. all those things in the early innings are up in the air. >> mark andrewson said the era of ai is here. ai will not destroy the world and, in fact, may save it. what do you make of what he

says do you think the risks are overstated how do you view this >> we spend a lot of time on ai. we've been looking at investing in this sector for a dozen years. he made the overstated what's going to happen. i'm not sure if it's going to save the world, but i think it's going to be transformational technology the next 20 years is going to be ai whether it's existing companies changing their business models around that technology or new technologies being formed. >> i know what's happening with you and other vcs. beating down the door calling you up, i have this great company, it's all about ai and we're going to change the world. what do you say? >> how are you going to change the world? we've invested in a lot of ai

companies. what's the job the artificial intelligence is doing? it's not a sign project. you're buying something or selling something that's really going to be transformational and we're seeing companies doing that companies are scaling working with ai. we're seeing some transformational stuff even in the early innings. >> leads to the question as to whether ai everything under the sun is meant to bubble in the market listen to what brad gerstner told us out in california. now and 1999, are there real comparisons? >> the greatest disservice for investors is to compare this moment to 1999 in 1999 you had valuations of make believe ref venue and

profits. it was the promise of what may come we had 30 million people connected to the internet via broadband. it was a tiny industry and it was trading at higher multiples. >> you want to take that on? >> sure. i think it's going to be similar to '99 there will be some speculative companies and real companies some companies were selling books on the internet in 1999 that turned out okay a lot of companies went away it was the same thing in the '20s when tv came around some companies went bankrupt you'll see the transformation now by incumbents and new company formations. >> does it feel like a bubble to you or just excitement, hype, in some cases justified the valuation differences between now and '99, yahoo was 600 times forward earnings

>> we're seeing even the generative ai companies, the most hyped of that hype cycle within ai, still trading at 10 and 30 times revenue very heady multiples by any estimate, but not 600. growing at a pace where they could grow into those multiples over time. you're seeing the speculators who are saying i have two guys that worked at google. they'll think about a project and they need $100 million and that's where people might get overly excited we're seeing enough companies solving real problems and doing real jobs that we're excited. >> you always help us understand thank you for being here. up next sofi stock surging up over 30%. this as student loan payments are set to restart we'll hear from sofi ceo anthony

noto "closing bell" is right back ♪♪ ♪when the day that lies ahead of me♪ ♪♪ ♪seems impossible to face♪ ♪a lovely day (lovely day)♪ ♪(lovely day) (lovely day)♪ ♪(lovely day)♪ a bank that knows your business grows your business. bmo.

sofi coming off their best week in nearly two and a half years. we're live at the piper sandler global exchange conference for a live interview with sophie ceo. >> thanks for joining me congress has ended the student loan pause students have to start repaying loans. what does this mean for you? >> first of all, it was really important that we gave people the relief over the last three years, not to have to pay federal student loans to deal with covid and the pandemic. that's been over for about a year we thank the representatives in washington for making that bipartisan decision. now consumers should look to refinance. we can help them out if they have interest rates in the high 6s or 7%, we help them

out. as an example, if someone has $70,000 of student loans and they have a ten-year term on a 6% rate their monthly payment is about $775 they haven't been paying that for the last three years it's going to be a burden for them likely in this environment. if they want to extend to 20 years, they can lower that payment at 6% to $500 a month. 20 years is a lot more than 10 years, but they can have that flexibility. they can refinance at lower rates. they can save by spreading out over the term. we think people will do both >> you were founded years ago for more affordable options for student loan payments. you've expanded. you're in personal loans, home loans. what's the state of the consumer

right now? you have a view into a lot of loan businesses. what is the consumer doing >> we're in the loans that you mentioned, plus checking, savings accounts we we're a bank we have insurance and credit card in the most recent quarter, we drew 43% year over year. there's a lot of demand for our products we're continuing to see strong d deposit growth we're continuing to see members spend at a high rate. >> you're not seeing an increase in loan losses >> we're below the levels from 2019 our consumer is more of a high-end consumer, $100,000 of household income and credit scores above 680 >> you mentioned you could save money to refinance their loans,

particularly student loans rates might be coming down what does that mean? how is that going to help you and consumers? >> for consumers looking to buy homes, as rates come down, they'll be able to do that for those who have student loans they can refinance as many times as they want without penalty and cost there's no closing costs they can refinance now and spread the payment out, but they can refinance when rates go lower as they're anticipated to do in 2024 and 2025. the other thing that's important to know, as rates go lower, there will be less to make in checking and savings accounts, but we'll be able to provide an attractive rate. >> scott has a question. scott? >> anthony, i just had a conversation about where we are with all this ai mania and the

hype around it and the hope that's sent a lot of stocks higher i'm going to send you back to your younger days, to 1999 you're the internet analyst at goldman sachs. you had a front row seat with how that started and ended do you view any similarity from back then? i would love it through the prism of your eyes. >> there's definitely a lot of hype around ai companies are changing their names to ai and companies changing their url addresses consumers need to watch out for that and protect themselves. the question they should ask a ceo or management team is how much revenue do you think you'll generate from ai what's the specific amount of costs you'll generate from ai? get to tangible results that will impact the performance of that company from a consumer perspective

they'll benefit a tremendous amount the question remains will that translate into better revenue or profits. for sofi we use it in our chatbot to better answer consumer questions which results in faster resolution times, lower contacts per customer and also the ability to be able to provide more comprehensive answers across other areas of the company. >> talk about a trip down memory lane, you were the coo of twitter. i don't know how many people know that. tell us what you think is going on there elon musk said he wants to turn twitter into a super financial app using twitter. that's what you're trying to do. are you competing with twitter what do you think is going on? >> the thing that was attractive to me about twitter is it has the best content in the world for free how should we make this product

easy to use for the mass market? as relates to sofi, when i came to the company in 2018 and talked about being a one-stop shop for all your needs, everybody said they were going to do the same thing guess what five and a half years later we're the only company that does that. >> five seconds on twitter >> twitter should stick to its netting. we're the super app in the financial services we just added sofi travel. everything we do distances us from the competition. >> you have been a survivor, that's for sure. a anthony, thank you scott, back to you. >> anthony, appreciate you being on "closing bell." up next, kristina partsinevelos is standing by with the biggest movers.

>> reporter: the company doesn't make a profit, but shares are surging ahead of earnings. can you guess the name i'll have the name after the break. ♪♪ dads are special. fun. inspiring. always there for you. so make father's day extra special with gifts he'll love from weathertech. floorliners... cargo liner... seat protector... sunshade... ready-to-wash system and cupfone. or our newest product, the golf cart mat. order these american made gifts or a gift card at weathertech.com have a very happy father's day.

want to stop lower body pain before it starts? there's a dr. scholl's for that. new dr. scholl's prevent pain insoles are the only ones clinically proven to prevent pain from muscle-induced joint stiffness and strain. so you can stay pain free. we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy! well, not everyone knows coventry's helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. even term policies. i can't believe they're just sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine!

come on, guys! do you hear that? i don't hear anything anymore. find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire

about 15 to go before the closing bell let's get back to kristina partsinevelos. >> reporter: i want to talk

about affirm they're still up about 3%. the company announced early this morning a new partnership with amazon pay affirm's adaptive checkout, buy now pay later plans will be an option for amazon merchants. did you guess the name game stop rallying this name is known for its big pop after earnings quarterly losses are still expected, but only about 15 cents a share. game stop is not expected to show guidance for the next quarter, but management recently has been focussed on cost cutting, especially in europe. let's see how that goes. shares up almost 5%. scott? >> kristina, thank you kristina partsinevelos last chance to weigh in on our twitter question we asked what is the better buy right now, large cap tech or

cyclical value head to twitter. the results after this short break. [office sounds] ♪upbeat music♪ ♪♪

♪when the day that lies ahead of me♪ ♪♪ ♪seems impossible to face♪ ♪a lovely day (lovely day)♪ ♪(lovely day) (lovely day)♪ ♪(lovely day)♪ a bank that knows your business grows your business. bmo.

we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy! well, not everyone knows coventry's helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. even term policies. i can't believe they're just sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine! come on, guys! do you hear that? i don't hear anything anymore. find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com.

let's get the answer to our twitter question what is the better buy, large cap tech or cyclical value the results are split with cyclical value slightly in the lead at 51%. up next, playing chess while others play checkers

dan ives jnsoi us. that and much more inside the market zone. this thing, it's making me get an ice bath again. what do you mean? these straps are mind-blowing! they collect hundreds of data points like hrv and rem sleep, so you know all you need for recovery. and you are? i'm an investor...in invesco qqq, a fund that gives me access to... nasdaq 100 innovations like... wearable training optimization tech. uh, how long are you... i'm done. i'm okay.

so, you've got the power of xfinity at home. now take it outside with xfinity mobile. like speed? it's the fastest mobile service around. with the best price for two lines of unlimited. only 30 bucks a line per month. that's hundreds in savings a year when you wave bye to the other guys. no wonder xfinity mobile is one of the fastest growing mobile services. you really shouldn't walk out the front door without it. switch today at xfinitymobile.com. we've got your back, road warriors. because we know you're picking up the pace, steering life at 10 and 2. you're hitting the road...

and we're helping you get there with confidence. so skip the counter without missing a beat. choose any car in the aisle. and be the boss of you. go national. go like a pro. you ok, man? the internet is telling me a million different ways i should be trading. look! what's up my trade dogs? you should be listening to me. you want to be rich like me? you want to trust me on this one. [inaudible] wow! yeah! it's time to take control of your investing education. cut through the noise with best-in-class education resources that match your preferred style of learning. learn your way. not theirs. td ameritrade. where smart investors get smarter℠. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market.

e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley ♪ ♪ now with the "closing bell" market zone. cnbc's mike santoli here to break down the crucial moments of the trading day plus, dan ives is here he'll make the full case for tesla. that stock shaking off market weakness mike santoli, 4,200 was resistance maybe 4,300 is a little bit of

resistance we climb the ladder. >> you probably want the s&p 500, the large caps, to cool off, take a break and allow for some of the rerotation that's been the most profound trend in the market. over the last six days, really since last thursday, not even five trading days, the russell 2000 has outperformed the nasdaq by 6 percentage points it's not going to keep going at that force you're seeing the broadening out, or at least people trying to grab for stuff that hasn't participated feeling forced to participate. it makes sense for the large caps to ease back. >> speaking of one of those, apple is pulling back today, dan, but three quarters of one percent. you raised your price target from 220 to 205.

why? >> i think it's about iphone units. over the last week we're seeing upticks. this is all the drum roll to the iphone xv. you put that together and numbers have to come up significantly for the street i still think right now apple's playing chess. others are playing checkers in terms of the what's happening on services and these are some of the parts. 3.5 trillion, 4 trillion in the next 15 months. >> you think service and revenues are going to pick up again to where they were before? what are we talking about here >> we're getting back to double digits for services. wae talked about that the key from a valuation perspective we're starting to see more and more upticks from the app store. you'll be looking now at 100

billion of services revenue. we think the valuation of that is 1.4 trillion as it plays through. >> they introduce vision pro i was out there. there were, as we showed yesterday, a clip from tiktok gasps in the room. some chuckles at the $3,500 price tag. your reaction to all this is what >> my reaction is this is about the developers they're going after. >> there were the developers laughing and gasping in some respect. that's what that was. >> my conversation with developers -- you have some skeptics, but what they're building is a move that's starting with arvr and will lead to an ai ecosystem they'll be building out i view this from an apple perspective as leading to the

next generation of growth. >> tesla, down tape, but that stock was bucking that trend what's going on there? >> it's all about units in china. a lot of worries about that earlier. talking about this year and even after the price cuts, we're seeing demand continue to increase this is one that margins stay where they are units will start to uptick battery technology coming down from a cost perspective. you can see $250 this plays out. >> do you have a take on this? >> the other thing going on there's a bit of a bid for the dented toys in the market. tesla, everyone would have looked at that chart and say it looks topy you're looking at not one of the seven stocks that have been carrying the market. that's the portfolio dynamics.

not going to deny it feels as if you talk about the players in ev, it all comes back to who has the head start and people rediscover that. >> back to apple, as this stock continues to go up, it's like okay, 25 times, 28 times, 30 times. at what point do you say, even as an objective observer, okay, it's a little too rich, a little too rich >> i view it as sum of the parts. if the services business, which we believe starts to get towards that $100 billion trajectory annual and ultimately from a unit perspective you look at 235 million units, you're looking at numbers that come up 5, 10% with margins that show an uptick. you could start to rationalize valuation even at these numbers. >> the skeptic would say you keep increasing your sum of the

parts valuation to justify the valuation as the stock continues to escalate. the earnings, by the way, is not what it was. >> to that point, i would say it's all about services. i view the value of that service as the growth continues to uptick and more and more developers -- i think you're seeing them double down. the overall app store and ecosystem of cupertino, that's what's the value that separates them from every other tech company. >> did you expect 3,500 bucks? give me your honest take. >> 3,000 was our estimate. 3,500 was more than we expected. it's all about developers. scott, two years from now, i think it's $1,500 in terms of what the second, third versions will be. >> appreciate you being here dan ives, mike santoli we have the two-minute warning these stocks weren't going to go

up mike, the russell is up 2% that's where the strength is. >> this is what we got used to coming into last week. breadth on new york stock exchange is two to one in the positive you're getting a little bit of the those that were left behind are catching up a little bit you can't necessarily extrapolate this the overall market probably has some di jgesting to do. the food stocks are rebounding you're seeing money come out of that group as people get more comfortable with the economy not falling away quickly after that jobs number, it feels like we can own more of the cheaper cyclicals here i think a lot of it is normal eb and flow of risk appetites

it's been very pronounced in terms of how dramatic the strength has been in the market. >> let's see what happens in the next few days or so. nasdaq is going to be a triple digit loser today. "overtime" picks up that story with john fortt right now. a mixed bag is the story on wall street. we're here for what comes next welcome to "overtime." i'm john fortt coming up, we'll talk to the ceo of wolf speed getting a healthy boost today making up some ground. plus, we'll break down the energy trade with helima croft plus, we're awaiting earnings repor