the goldman sachs conference about expenses and about tne and about de regulation. and jp morgan and citi group talking about investment banking fees. >> citi is up 4.5% as we speak. jenny. >> i'm going back to organon. 7.5% dividend yield. >> good stuff. i'll see you at three on "the closing bell." "the exchange" starts now. >> thank you very much and welcome to the exchange. i'm kelly evans and here is what is ahead. republicans have an ambitious agenda for the first 100 days and there is already friction and a big bump in investment under trump 2.0 and another that could get obliterated. plus this name was put on the map last week. earnings crushed it and analysts loved it and the ceo is here and he'll talk about what makes them

so well positioned as the a.i. buildout continues. tweet me if you think you have the answer. and could we get a three-peat of 20 plus returns next year. our market said there is better chance of that than the chiefs winning the super bowl again. that is the stats and the trades. let's start with the markets. >> i'm in green and i i'm looking at one of other reporters also in greens. we got the memo today. the reason i'm wearing green is after the fact, but it is a record high. for one part of the market and for those people who have been watching over last couple of weeks, you know it is not the s&p and not the dow, but the notice and it does get a start because it hit an intraday high earlier but about flat up 21 points to 19,757. the s&p 500 is still 6,099. and it is off about two points, t even at the highs of the

session, we are were up 13 and down 3 at the lows and just about the lows there. so keeping on the s&p. and then the dow industrials off about 49 points, 44,352. one place that is in the green so far today in the s&p 500, is one of the bester forming groups, is the cruise line companies because analysts at goldman sachs has upgraded norwegian wan cruise to a buy rating and carnival is already 2.5% to the upside and royal caribbean not upgraded today. so it is up about a half a percent. so the positive commentary from nor eej wan keeping an eye on that. the worst performing stock, on the heels of earnings yesterday, oracle, the worst day in a year, if it does that, we're solidly below the 50-day average price on a rolling basis, that hasn't happened until august of this summer. guidance came in below

expectations even though cloud revenue at oracle cloud infrastructure, oci, up 52% on a year-over-year basis. just in the last half hour or so, holidays from the "wall street journal" that walgreens will be taken over by p.c. shop and those are driving the shares up 18% and it has been a laggard and losing over half of its value on a year-to-date to basis. fundamentally, this has the fourth highest short interest in the entire s&p. so the short squeeze also playing to walgreens boots alliance. be careful with that trade today. back over to you. >> with that in mind, you could think it could deserve a bigger pop. >> for a stock that is only $10. i remember it was a 30, 40, $50 billion market cap. and it is not there now. >> we begin today with politics.

in 40 days, a new administration will take over and it is expected to bring change. but we don't have to get that long to get what the first 100 days of congress will have in store. emily is looking at the republican's ambitious agenda and the friction it is causing. and we have roman schweitzer here with what he calls massive opportunity and risk. roman welcome. and then diana olick is looking at how doge, the department of government efficiency could derail that. and this is where the rubber is going to hit the road in many ways for a lot of the president's plans. >> absolutely. kelly. and there is also a lot of debate on exactly what republicans need to do first. so you have the incoming senate majority leader john thune, he has this big proposal to take this in two bites. remember, republicans have unlocked this kind of special process, they don't need democrats to move major bills. so long as they actually impact revenues or spending.

so they're talking about doing energy as well as border security first. and in one package and then have another package of tax. however, last week, i was chatting with jason smith, he of course is the chair of the ways and means committee, the top house republican when it comes to taxes. and he basically said, absolutely not. he said it would be very foolish, i think we have a clip of our conversation when he lays out why it all needs to be in one package. >> i remind my colleagues on the other side of the building, there is no one that understands the house republicans when it comes to tax policy better than i do. and i know what is necessary to get 217 votes. and it will need to be a reconciliation bill that has everything within it. >> so, kelly, you have that shot across the capitol there, that warning if they want to get this done, they'll have to do it in one package. so that is a huge debate.

>> but there are so many good headlines out of that event. to make sure i'm following what you said, the current idea is to do border and then tax at the second half of the year. but they should combine all of that and do one big package. >> he's saying that it will be easier to get the votes needed. remember, republicans are working with like a four-seat, five-seat majority in the house. so to give them things that they could take back home to their constituents, that is energy, and border security. it is not as much taxes but they do have the tax deadline at the end of 2025 so they have to get something done by then or the american people will going to feel immediately in 2026. >> i'm already wondering, the tax piece is going to be so difficult. there are more scoring out about how tcga could create more costs. it is going to be a huge fight. what do they do with salt and the rest of it and it is going to expire. could we fast forward a year

from now and we're talking about the package is expired and no one knows what will happen and they say we'll get it fixed by the time it affects filing season, that the way we're going. >> that is part of the reason why jason smith is saying, look, we need to have one big package and one now and don't get too hard up against the deadline and i've talked to other lawmakers who have -- you mentioned the idea that the 2025 will come to an end without this tax package and you could have see them having that freak out. they hate that idea. what they could move and get consensus on. the big question for the next congress, do you see all of the republicans kind of go whatever way this trump wants them to go, or do you see a number of them say, hey, if me and four of my buddies get together with, he could prevent this bill from going forward or require they add one provision or another to it. >> and i'm curious, for the department of public efficiency,

has to go to through congress. the real practical measures. how would that work if they're also dealing -- would this be in this superbill. >> that is a great question. congress holds the purse strings. so we talk about funding the government and the government shutdown looming on december 20th, and that is the one way that they could get it done. identify programs they're going to reduce funding, but most of the discussions that we've heard at this point, well they would reduce spending is more around the edges. the pot of money that congress plays with is about $1.7 trillion. the vast majority of government spending is in mandatory programs, your social security, medicare and medicaid and lawmakers that are afraid to touch. >> and if they were trying to make cuts there, would they even have to go through congress. >> some of them they would.

and they talked about requiring federal employees come back five days a week via executive order and you could see the white house implement some other measures when it comes to rolling back regulations or how they implement things. and then a lot of this, they are going to need the congressional approval. >> we have to go, but even on the border piece where i think the president has floated the idea of considered using executive order to end birth right citizenship, it sounds like they'll have a awful lot on their plate. >> and the republicans that are eyeing, this could only be dealing with spending and revenues that change the budget. so if you want to do something like end birthrate citizenship or change the visa process, none of that could be done through this process. that has to be done through the normal channels and you need democrat support. >> that is a good point. emily, appreciate it. helping explain this very busy moment to us. president-elect trump has picked billionaire and

entrepreneur jared isaacman to lead nasa. he's been to space twice and an area that my next guest sees. roman schweitzer is back. it is great to see you. there are a couple of areas of real opportunity and real threat based on what you're hearing so far from the incoming administration. what are they? >> that is great to be with you, again, kelly. long-term, one issue is china and russia space development and that is space exploration and projects on orbit and into the moon. and then certainly the military aspect of that. and that is been one of the underlying national security principals that we've seen. and then, of course, with nasa, the exploration project, the artemis program and the struggles combined with the rapid acceleration of a commercial market which as many folks know, spacex has really

led the charge. we've conducted an analysis and looked at the budgets and the larger segments, launch and leo satellites and slates in leo orbit for military and governmental purposes, and then really some of the more long island things such as on orbit services. we published that in a report last week. >> so roman, this would seem to favor some of the kind of start-ups in this space. i wonder what it means for incumbents like boeing that have struggled. >> that is the fascinating question. i think one of the things that we flag in our report is that next year is a decisive year in many of these categories. and certainly boeing programs have struggled. both their nasa programs, whether that is starliner or the sls rocket which has been considered for cancelation. and then certainly their ula program, their joint venture with lockheed martin to build a vulcan rocket to compete with

spacex in a national security launch segment. so it is really a challenging time for -- for i would say the traditional space players, and really a lot of the newer entrances aren't burdened or saddled with some of the historical challenges that these companies have. >> spacex has benefited, i think they're relent out there trying to do a capital raise value. it was $350 billion, just an incredibly large number. but northrup grumman could be a leader in the area. why? >> years ago, northrup acquired orbital atk and created a defense -- a vertically integrated defense focused space company and that's served them well both in the launch business, the satellite business, as well as some military programs. but they're also one of the leaders in sort of the segments of on orbit satellite servicing and something that military

officials call dynamic space operations. that is really sort of the next gen of either using satellites or spacecraft as repair vehicles or refuelling, if you're refuelling trucks or repair stations to go on --go into orbit, and fix that satellites or refuel them in space. it is probably one of the more interesting areas that we see over the next five years. it is wild west in launch in leo satellites right now. but on orbit is really one of the growth areas. >> love to learn a new term. oos. i think if i'm getting that right. >> on orbit services. >> okay. that is super interesting. did we create the space force under the last trump administration. because this does sound like an area that is very, very busy. >> we sure did. and you know, i've heard from folks that there is even a possibility that president-elect trump may look to break off space force as its own

independent branch. right now it is sort of nestled still under the air force. but, certainly, he has a major focus there and then jim brightenstein plays a massive role in shaping the art em is program and i'm sure they have their own perspectives on how that might look. >> are there any other investing takeaways from isaacman's appointment at nasa? >> i mean, he seems by all accounts very thoughtful guy who is it not going to be high bound to some of the pre-existing notions. he's obviously a spacex customer. i think folks might, you know, suggest some bias there. but i think one of the points i was brought up before, talk about doge, elon musk has been very critical about regulations that have sort of restricted spacex flight operations, from faa and elsewhere, even perhaps on orbit through let's not

forget about star link or star shield his defense piece of that, from a leo sat perspective. so there are some sort of regulatory things that aside from funding decisions or program changes that could really be enacted through a net change in leadership or new leadership at nasa. >> i was going to say, i need to find a good space podcast but i think morgan has one. so it is time to get with the program. i appreciate it. you bringing us up to speed telling us a few places to keep an eye on. thanks for your time today. >> thanks so much, kelly. >> roman schweitzer with td calan. trump's department of government efficiency could have a big impact on office space. let's turn to diana olick on that with the ceo of wall brand and wallace, joining us live from their conference in new york city and he's got a particularly interesting spot

here, diana? >> he did, kelly, with over $3 billion in assets, they are focused on the intersection of real estate technology and clean energy so tons to get through. thanks for joining us. i want to start with office first. names like cbre and curbman and wakefield and heinz all in the office space, you're raising concerns about what happened if doge hits that office space. >> the u.s. government, and the gsa, is the largest tenant in the u.s. they lease about 150 million square feet, $5 billion of annual rent and it is estimated that half of the leases are cancellable in six months because never expected this to happen. so when you think about doge looking for opportunities to cut cost, combine that with their back to office mandate, you could see a lot of space coming back and actually flowing into the -- especially d.c. office market and that could have a really challenging effect on the office market. that is already struggling today. >> but it is noter just d.c.

it is nationwide, the u.s. government leases space everywhere. so i think landlords across the country are looking at what would happen if the u.s. government gives back this much space. >> so what are your partners telling you and in their investments and what they're looking to with the clean technology in office and trying to -- the recovery has just begun. we've done some office transitions but what are people telling you. >> i think people are waiting to see what doge will do and how important is office going to be for that. you also have to remember, the u.s. government is a major office owner itself. so there is probably a huge opportunity to sell off assets and form a reit. so there is an enormous real estate play around the federal government that is just starting to come into focus now. >> and interesting. app you also have a big climate fund, half a billion dollars invested in decash onnizing. and i spoke with you,

preelection and you were very concerned about the companies. tell us about this. >> i think everyone should be concerned. a second trump administration is absolutely adverse for climate tech. it is not quite that simple. when you think, the imperative for the real estate industry to become more efficient, to have more efficient homes, more efficient office buildings and industrial parks, that is something that is a perma trend. it doesn't relate to saving the planet, it is about saving businesses and saving customers money and that is just good business. certainly parts of the real estate need to decarbonize aren't based on a agenda and huge parts of the ira, which has been a major benefit to where we invest in climate tech, they've been focused on red districts. so they're the chief beneficiaries are the red states. sos it is unlikely the ira are going to get repealed. and the last thing it trump's trade policy, specifically with tariffs on china, it is going to massively bolster u.s.

manufacturing of batteries and solar. so, it is a mixed bag in climate. and i think you'll see mixed results. but clearly i think a lot ever people are very nervous because there is a real sentiment shift today. >> and kelly has a question for you. >> diana, thank you. i want to circle back to what you think could happen with government real estate. i mean, this is real estate that by many accounts is going unused in large parts. so just talk me through what you think the implications are there? >> i mean, the implications of the real estate industry in the u.s. now facing a pullback in federal demand, it would be profound. the most profound effect would be in washington, d.c. but think would you see it nationwide. and it is because the federal government is the largest and most important and highest security tenant in the u.s. and so today the office industry is grappling with big existential questions like do we already have too much office space. and if the federal government starts to signal they're going to give backspace, that would be

a very negative move. >> and the last thing, we're at your a.i. day, tell us how you're seeing a.i. impact the market specifically, because people don't get the connection, but in a new administration with different questions surrounding a.i., how is that going to affect what you do. >> most people when think they about a.i., think about how are large language model goes to make the business of operating better and faster and easier and cheerp and all of that is true. but what is missed is the second effects, which is how is a.i. going to change the demand for space. because fundamentally the real estate industry is how we use space to create the economy and the last revolution and the internet, it spawned prologic in the major industrial reits and spun digital realty, the largest development of data centers. so now how is a.i. going to change demand for space. are office workers today, are

they going to be replaced by large language models in data centers. so i think hey're grabbing with the big questions, not just about how is a.i. going to make our business more efficient, but how is it going to change the business of real estate itself in certain sectors within it. >> so much more to talk about. but we're out of time. brandon, thank you so much for join us. kelly, back to you. >> thank you both. coming up, sentiment is running high into year end. but our investors get ahead of themself. we'll look at key technical levels to watch and what it will take for stocks to put together a straight plus year. and the latest a.i. data center darling. no one has guessed it yet. the shares spiked 30% after a big earnings beat and more than tripled since january. he'll reveal it and speak to t ceo ahead on "the exchange." >> announcer: this is "the

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>> 2024 has marked the second straight year of 20 plus returns for u.s. stocks. it is unusual. only the fourth time that happened in the past 100 years but my next guest said it the marketers could make it a three-peat in 2025 and when in the 90s we had four years in a row of gains like this. joins me is the ceo of zoey

financial and also with us is cnbc contributor and etf lord, jeff killberg. it is great to see you both. andre, lay it out for us, as you're going through the process for 20 2r5. people thinking it too good to be true. next year is a year of more mean reversion. >> average returns are rare. wall street is predicted 10% returns next year as they usually do. but there has only been two calendar years over the last 90 years in which you saw 10 to 12% returns. so the reality of it is that being up 20, 25 is more common than being up 10 or 12. >> but it is more common than being up 10 or 12. >> 68% chance that you're down 10. that is not uncommon. >> okay. >> but think about it this way. if directionally, the markets is going to go up, there is no reason to think that 10% is where we're going to hit because historically that is rare. if the marks go up, they tend to go up.

>> so you think we could have a three-peat. >> i think there is a better chance of having a three-peat for the market than for the chiefs. >> they look okay greatly. >> they look great. mahomes looks great but it is only happened twice where the green bay packers are a three-peat. >> but the investment case has only happened once. so this would be more unusual than that. >> there has been four times since the 20s, in which the markets have been up three years in a row. so it would be three versus for. >> so maybe not up 20%, but up three years in a row. >> joe, would you like to bail us out and weigh in on the market versus chiefs, who will defy history. >> i want to weigh in on michael jordan and the chicago bulls and they're three-peat in 1990s. it seems like the market is stuck on automatic. we've seen massive inflows, historic inflows since november

5th election and the expectations for 2025, i think have been pulled forward. so when i look at complacency presented in the vix and the kind of exhaustion with nvidia moving lower, i get concerned short-term that we have the ability to have another 25% plus year. i'm cautiously optimistic but i see a single-digit year with the 10-year, and all of the moving parts, i think the mag 7 to continue to lead the way, i just don't see that happening. and then we talk about the outliers, the palantir and the tesla and the micro strategies. i think that is a bit of a distraction and we'll bet back to basics in some of the blue chip industrial names which should profit under the trump 2.0. >> that sounds sensible to me. the sensible thing never happens. >> well for sure. an look at this year, kelly, when you see the estimates. every s&p analyst had estimates.

there were 25% wrong. the targets were about 4800 in the s&p 500 and here we are at 6100. and i think you're right. and every move we've seen, as investors investors and traders, we become conditions, ab this narrow range feels lika down day because we haven't had a new record all-time high. so you're right, the moves up and down will be exaggerated but that is going to happen when you see more of the fed pull back, their $7 trillion balance sheet but i don't know if that happens in 2025 and andre may get his three-peat. >> so you're an investor and you're looking at the gains and think maybe we'll have a repeat. do you do anything with that information? >> i think do you. we've been aggressively selling calls here. we're trying to synthetically mitigate down side risk but we've let our winners run all year long and that is a running recipe but pigs get fat and hogs

get slaughtered so we're considering some of the non-seven names. oracle, down 7%, so i think you have to add to non-mag 7 in the event you see nvidia dip under $130, they'll have to trim and rebalance and i think that could exaggerate a bit of a pullback here. not more than 5% or 7%, that will make it an acute feeling because we've become so acclimated to the market going up. >> if it falls they'll have to trim. and you think if it falls, aren't they bullish. given that we don't know what is happening next year, what should you do practically speaking about it. >> if you look at any random day over the last 30 years versus buying at all-time highs, this is a report that jp morgan put out a couple of quarters back, it turns out that buying at

all-time highs, if you look at the data, you end up with better returns than any given day. so i think people shouldn't be afraid to invest because we're near all-time highs. you need to look at the fundamentals and earnings growth is supposed to be double-digit next year and multiples are expensive, but there is a momentum, economically speaking the fed is lowering rates so in he essence if you flip a coin, i think the market is up. >> do you do anything like try to stay trim in areas -- let's say on crypto the memish type things or do you say don't worry about it and stick with the broad index and it works itself out. >> you do need to be broadly diversified. and financials have done well this year and now you have deregulation tail wind that could improve the likelihood of that market outperforming next year, so you could pick your spots. but i i this the key is not to get paralyzed and if the market

is at all-time highs, i should not invest now. >> good to see you. into take a quick break. alphabet having the best day since april after they announced a major outbreak in quantum computing. google shares are up 5% as a result of this. what it would ko mean for silicon valley. and tonight is the premiere ofnbcies cc ti of success. this time focusing on salt lake. that is tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern here on cnbc. and we're back after this.

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the u.s. treasury dispersed the $20 billion portion of a loan for economic development in ukraine. the u.s. share is part of a $50 billion loan agreed upon by g-7 nations and the funds are backed by frozen russian assets. and caitlin clark was named the "time magazine" 2024 athlete of the year. the magazine cited the wnba superstar for her, quote, unprecedented influence over the number of people watching wnba games in her first season. she set the wnba single season record in 2024 with 337 assists. i love the fact that she set a record for assists. it shows that she's not just a superstar, but a team player for sure. >> it is true. very impesive. i like the outfit, too. alphabet shares are higher after announcing a quantum computing break through,

unveiling a chip named willow. it would take a classic supercomputer longer than the history of the universe, how do they know that. diedra bosa has the check. >> not only did google surprise the tech community with the breakthrough, but impressed some of the biggest names working on the most complex other emerging technologies like elon musk who responded, wow, to sundar patchy's announcement and sam altman who said a big congrats. why is everyone so xcited, especially since this is really a technical breakthrough and still very far from a practical one. well, put simply, google cracked a challenge raising the prospect that quantum computing could one day be as transformational as a.i. i spoke to the google entrepreneur who said this is an

entry ticket. if you could win on abstract problems that clears the way to win for useful problems. some of the practical applications could be in the near future, not ten or more years a way. google shares are up on the news. and the tech community geeks out what it this means for the life and the universe, wall street is taking this as a reinforcement of google technology leadership and continues to lead with autonomous driving with waymo and now quantum computing. and could it capitalize on the emerging new technologies. that is a question that is more up for debate and ways on its valuation. >> deirdre, very quick question, does quantum computing have the same electricity power demands or is this a different type? >> that is a really good question. it is different. i'm not sure, i've seen pictures of it, which are just these

massive supercomputers. it doesn't -- i don't -- honestly, i'm not sure. >> we will delve into it. we'll take our power nerd from yesterday. ienl going to ask him. >> please do. >> if we're moving on to this era, that could have big implications. thank you. check out apple shares het hitting an all time day for eighth session in a row. the shares are up 5% this time and of previous two streaks ended at nine day so hold your breath tomorrow. coming up, your last look at our mystery chart. two people have guessed it. .i. data giant, is coming up and we'll speak with the ceo next. ♪ ♪

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week. nick wells was the first one to guess it. mr. jane goodal also guessed it today. we have seen a slew of price target changes since then, but there is only buy or overweight ratings on the street and ome one overweight. b of a raised their price target from 80 to 27. and need ham went up to 70 and what is next is brill brennan, the president and ceo of credo. congrats and welcome. >> thank you very much. happy to be here. i like that chart. >> thank you for being here as well as an investor. take me back to january. did you look at your stock price and say this thing is massively undervalued? >> we could pick january and go back then. i think the theme here has been really consistent over the past, you know, five-plus years. we've known there is going to be

an increase in bandwidth on high speed connectivity. that is coming. the data center has driven that for many years. in january of this year, sure, i mean, a.i. was well discussed, there was so many programs that were staged for deployment. and so, sure, in january, we had a real sense that there was a real growing momentum in the deployment of a.i. clusters and that, of course, working with our customers as they make the deployments we would be a beneficiary for sure. >> the shares are up 241% this year and so for a lot of people looking for the picks an shovels of a.i. revolution, they've overlooked your stock and wishing they had been in it for this ride, and do you think this run will continue into next year and beyond? is there still a lot of value to be unlocked here? >> yeah, i'll first, at a high

level, talk about where our solutions fit within a.i. so when we think about a.i. clusters, i think most people are conditioned to think about gpus, these are on their own very high performance stand alone compute devices and an a.i. cluster is combining 10,000 or tens of thousands of these gpus in the magic from our perspective is in the connectivity between the gpus. so the higher bandwidth connectivity that you could have between gpus, there is a direct correlation with performance of the cluster itself. so i think that, you know, i think we're really blessed with great investors that have dug into the thesis over the last three years and i think that -- i think it was welcome news when we announced earnings last week that we do see an inflection point that matched the a.i. market generally.

as we look toward the future, i think we're pretty bullish in a sense that, you know, we have many customer relationships in flight and there is different schedules for deployment. can't be specific about timing but the growth ore over the last year will continue over the next fiscal year. >> we're showing the three-year performance, up almost 500%. even as we're celebrating and remarking at this -- these a.i. milestones, google came out with the quantum chip leading many to speculation, a.i. is over. here comes quantum to do new and different things and i don't know if you know how much connectivity is required, if quantum also required quantum clusters and the rest sore if their chips actually could kind of simplify this and lead to maybe on the margin less demand for a.i. clusters in the future than we might think we need. >> i think it is early to pour cold water on a.i.

especially with a technology like quantum that has been discussed for many, many years. it is good to hear about the breakthrough and when it does come, i think there is going to be a massive amount of -- of high speed connectivity that goes along with the application. ly give you an anecdote. yesterday i was at a doctor's office in alo alto and the -- talked to a friend that works at a quantum communication company and they celebrated a big milestone of being able to transmit and receive 13 bits. to give you a good reference on what we're doing today. with our active electric cables, we're able to transmit and receive 800 billion bits per second of operating life over multiple years without a single bit failure. next year, we'll be shipping products that are 1.5 trillion bits per second. so to give you a relative reference point there.

>> you know, who could have brought a better reference point. to kind of put into context some of the news this week than that. bill, thank you so much for your time. we really appreciate it and we hope to check back there soon. >> absolutely. count me in as a katelyn fan as well. >> we'll be sure. have you seen her play? >> oh, i was tuning in every game. absolutely fascinating. >> she's quite something. bill, thanks so much. bill brennan joining us from credo today. coming up, shares of core civic are higher after web bush hikes their price target to 30 from 19. they met with the private prison firm management and came away more bullish on potential i.c.e. detentions into next year and beyond. core civic are up 70% since trump is elected. and we'll be right back. can lead to better solutions. t. rowe price. invest with confidence.

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year and bank of america is taking the side of yes, in part thanks to bearish individual sentiment heading into september, bearish because as stocked rally last week, they're playing catch-up and fuelling gains even further. joining me is darren sutmeyer. it is great to see you. let's start with the supposedly bearish sentiment. people think households are acting bullish about stocks right now. >> well, i mean, we took a look at the aai, bulls to bears spread, meaning when that is a positive greeting, there is more bulls than bears and when it is negative there is more bears than bulls and entering the month of december, you had more bears than bulls in the market. and then last week got a rally. and that rose a bit to 17.6 bulls over bears. which, you know, is telling us that we have a catch up trade in the making here. investors getting more bullish as the market rallies. but what is really important to note is that the peak assessive

bullishness reading on that indicator is around 28 to 32 which is where it was earlier this year. and where it -- when the market rallied into july. it was a lot higher than where it is now. so i think they are a good run based on that. >> so maybe we could take a deep breath about that one. you're charting a few other measures of market sentiment right now. like the advanced decline line. which tells you what exactly? >> well the great thing about the advanced decline line is that it went to a new high. even before the s&p went to its own new high. so it tells us that market breadth is broad in the market and there is plenty of participation which i think is very important. so when you have strong breath, the market breaks new highs. it is suggesting that those new highs will continue. we do have a case to be made that we could be 6150, 6180 into s&p based on some technical breakouts we've seen. >> you think we could get to

where. >> 6150, 6180. could be the santa claus rally that gets us there, could be early january perhaps. but there is a case to be made that, especially if we could hold somewhere near or north of 6,000 on the s&p, there is additional support around that 5870, 5850 range. so plenty of support in the market and good breadth and bulls in the mark. >> and growth versus value. people don't want to hear about value any more. but walk us through what you're seeing in there? >> what i think is interesting, is when you look at russell 1000 growth relative to russell 1,000 value, a lot of folks do want value to outperform but that is not the case. growth broke out relative to value earlier this year and retested that breakout and had rising growth so i think the growth trade over value still

supports the case to be overweight growth and underweight value. at least when you look at that particular ratio. also, there is some technicians that we're looking at a head and shoulders top on that, that has indeed failed. so when you have a top formation on a chart that fails, you tend to get an equal and opposite reaction, if it fails to complete the top -- guess what happens. >> growth is back. >> you get growth stocks beating value stocks. >> most people investored in the market say that makes sense and that may yet be the trend. we really appreciate you joining us today, steven, thank you fo your time. steven sutmeyer, from about of a. that is it for "the exchange." "power lunch" is up next. a deep level of insight. at ice we have extensive data sets,

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it's a lot to be a caregiver and a daughter. because you kind of have to take a step back. getting some help would be a great relief. from companions to helpers to caregivers. find all the senior care you need at care.com welcome to "power lunch" alongside courtney reagan, i'm jon fortt and stocks about flat this hour, not much moving in the major averages but we're seeing big swings in individual names. alphabet is up about 5% having best day since april. oracle down big after earnings, does that make now the time to buy? >> well we've only got two more weeks until christmas. steve liesman is standing by with retail and we'll talk to the ceo of a major mall