all of this, all of the material things, all of that is just stuff. and it has to come from inside. and i'm very happy. >> you found peace with yourself? >> yes. >> it's been lovely meeting you. >> nice to have met you. thank you. >> and your bones. >> and my bones. good evening, everyone. i'm don lemon. i want you to pay attention. we have a fascinating hour ahead for you. so sit down and sit down and watch this. you're going to want to watch the entire hour. tonight a cnn newsroom special report. a little girl dead. her own mother accused. much of this country captivated by casey anthony, the trial that's going on. a panel of guests will join me tonight to talk about the case a prosecutor, a psychologist, a former fbi criminal profiler who

actually worked on the case, an orlando reporter who has been in the courtroom for the trial and a media critic, they will join us in just moments. but first how we got here. >> there's wrong. i found my daughter's car today and it smells like there was a dead body in the damn car. >> monday, june 9th, 2008, between 9:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m., i, casey anthony, took my daughter caylee marie anthony to her nanny's apartment. june 16th is a big, big day. there's a lot of things going on. first, that's the day at 12:50 p.m. when casey's dad george says he last sees little caylee. then investigators have a bunch of phone records from that day and looking at these records, casey making a ton of calls, including eight calls to her mom cindy. also, this is the day that casey

anthony moves out of her parents' house. she leaves. then things get even more interesting. later in the night around 7:54 p.m. at a blockbuster, there's surveillance video, you can see her then-boyfriend, tony lazaro, and casey anthony arm in arm walking into that blockbuster to rent a couple movies. what's also noticeable about that picture, there's no caylee there. june 18th or june 19th, this is when casey anthony's neighbor says that she came over, knocked on the door to borrow a shovel. now, according to the neighbor she needs the shovel to take care of some bamboo shoots or something in the backyard. it's also on these days, and this is interesting because the neighbor said he never saw casey anthony really use the garage, yet sometime during those days she uses the garage but doesn't pull into it straight, she backs her car into the garage. and this is where casey anthony

worked as a shot girl. this is where casey anthony is up on stage, dancing with that other woman in those pictures. all that during that same time frame when her child is missing and she says she's looking for caylee. >> so joining us right now is holly hughes, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. wendy walsh is in l.a., she's a human behavior expert and jim clemente, are retired fbi agent and adviser writer for the criminal mind. he worked on the casey anthony case. drew, an orlando reporter for wdbo radio. he's been in the courtroom. leonard pitts is in washington. a syndicated columnist for "the miami herald" and winner of the pulitzer prize for commentary. you saw some of that drama there and vinnie politan was talking about it. what do you make of casey anthony and what has gone on in this trial? >> well, i mean it's really

almost a greek tragedy the way this thing has unfolded in court. of course, once the defense laid out it's opening argument basically saying that casey was a victim all of her life of sexual abuse at the hands of her father, that caylee had in fact drowned in the pool and the father and her covered it up, basically that he knew about the death this whole time and played like he didn't, it really took a turn for the even more dramatic, i can tell you that lines to get inside the courtroom have been starting at about midnight for court to get in the next day at 9:00. so obviously there's a lot of public interest about this case and -- >> and you're absolutely right because we have seen the people rushing to get a seat in the morning. i mean, really trampling each other to try to get a seat for this trial. what we're seeing on television, is it even more tense inside of that courtroom, drew? >> you know, it really is. there's peaks and valleys. when we had george and cindy anthony on the stand, of course, those were very intense

cross-examinations by the defense. but today, you know, we heard from fbi expert and a crime scene technician. those are more technical aspects. the state is laying out specific evidence that has to do with things found in her trunk, specifically a hair and some of the things found in the carpet in the trunk of that car. so there's definitely peaks and valleys, but definitely some high peaks. >> holly hughes, i'm looking at yours face as you're watching that. this angers you, doesn't it? >> this is one of the most horrific things we have ever seen. not only is this woman accused of murdering her 2 1/2-year-old little baby girl, don, but then to get herself out of trouble, she drives her entire family under the bus and it's not even a bus, it's a tank. she has taken her father and her brother, who she knows didn't do anything to her, and shea has sullied their reputation beyond belief. there are millions of people around the world watching this. this isn't just the united

states. i have people facebooking me from australia, from down under, asking me questions about this trial, and she has taken her father and her brother and said to the world they did this to me just to get herself out of trouble. if it's really true that this was an accident and that baby drowned in the pool, why is it necessary to say anything beyond that? >> all right. stand by. we have a lot more to come here. casey's mom, cindy anthony, was the one who started this whole investigation. she called police in july 2008, 31 days, 31 days after her granddaughter was last seen. >> i told you my daughter was looking for a month. i just found her today but i can't find my granddaughter. she just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself. there's something wrong. i found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car. specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice... and my hands were full.

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one of the biggest days of testimony that we have seen in this case. >> a lot going on, a lot of emotional testimony by cindy anthony. >> the smell in the car was like something i had never -- it was pretty strong. >> the pontiac sunfire, that's

the car that prosecutors say they believe caylee was once in. >> her favorite doll was in the car seat. i sprayed the doll, and i sprayed febreze all through the car. >> cindy anthony breaking down as the prosecution played tapes of her 911 calls. >> i found out my granddaughter has been taken. you're talking about a little girl. there's something wrong. it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car. >> that's how our sister network, hln, covered this. holly hughes, let's talk about cindy anthony. what does that tell you about the grandmother? >> what it tells me is right up front she knew something was not right with this story. listen to her words, don. what does she say? my daughter tells me the babysitter took this little girl. my daughter tells me she hasn't seen her in 31 days, but something is wrong. i found my daughter's car and it smells like there's been a dead body in the car. she's keying in on the fact this

story doesn't make sense, i don't believe it. if she believes that little girl was off with the babysitter, why would you talk about a dead body? she knew in her gut and she couldn't accept it. >> tim clemente, when you hear her saying and hear other people saying that car smelled like death, does that tell you anything? >> yes, i think it's a very distinct smell that human beings really react viscerally to. the hair they found that had postmortem banding, it can only come off someone who died and had started to decompose. it's very damning evidence. if you look at cindy's behavior, it's very consistent with somebody who is under duress, somebody who really just found out that something terrible had happened as opposed to when you look at casey's behavior and listen to her when she makes 911 calls, it's very, very matter of

factually that she states things. it's not somebody who is under duress who just figured out that something is wrong. >> leonard pitts, stand by, i'm going to let you sum it up but i want to go to drew quickly because he's been in the courtroom. when cindy anthony is on the stand and when she broke down, take us inside the courtroom. >> that was really an emotional moment. that's when they played the third of three 911 calls after casey tells her her daughter has been missing for 31 days. cindy anthony puts her face into her hands and weeps openly on the stand as this three-minute call is being played. casey anthony, she's waping away tears. at one point the defense tried to play more of that tape, replay it, and cindy pretty much begged the defense not to play it because it was such an emotional tape for her to hear. >> leonard pitts, as the world is watching this, especially americans, and you're doing commentary on this, what does

this say collectively about why people are so interested in this. does cindy anthony's emotion, casey anthony's apparent lying as they're saying on the stand, what does this mean? is this visceral for people who are so interested in this? >> i think it's very visceral. i think there's a tendency or an ability to sort of project yourself into the situation. frankly, the bizarreness of the circumstances i think is also attempts to draw people in, but to pull back from this individual case for a moment, this sort of idea of the news as sort of a movie of the week is not new or is not singular to the anthony trial. >> and it's -- look at this. this is "people" magazine, the cover of "people" magazine and many other magazines and newspapers, and, of course, record ratings for some television networks who are covering this. >> it is easy to forget that at

the core of this is a little girl who was murdered and who suffered heinously apparently at the hands of her mother. it's sort of as if all this other machinery gets attached to it, and at the very bottom it's a very simple, if bizarre set of circumstances. we saw the same thing with the o.j. simpson trial in which there was a lot of media interest, a lot of people brought a lot of baggage, but at the core of it there was a man who was alleged and credibly believed to have killed his wife. >> stand by to all my guests. some of the most dramatic moments came from casey anthony herself. the jury got to hear several hours of recorded jailhouse phone calls between casey and her family. up next, we go into the courtroom for casey's reaction to seeing herself and look at how these calls could affect the trial. >> do you think after this long she'd still be local? >> there's a possibility. >> what's your gut telling you right now? >> my gut is telling me that she's okay. >> okay. and your gut tells you that

she's close or she's hiding? >> she's not far. i know in my heart she's not far. i can feel it.

i helped in every way that i possibly can since the day i got here. >> you're the one that can control everything. >> no, dad -- please. >> sweetie -- >> i'm completely -- >> i'm not trying to get you

upset. >> but i am upset now. >> please. >> i'm completely upset. one, the media is going to have a afrifrickin field day with th. >> they are coddling her, they're coddling her. >> they're coddling her because this is clearly a fused family who can't remember whose problem is whose, but in watching her listen to the regacordings of those jailhouse phone calls i see her eyes darting in a way that shows she's analyzing. how am i going to answer to that? she's not a grieving mother going i don't want a replay of this awful tragedy. it's how do i get myself off? >> yeah, i agree. i think she's doing everything she can to sort of think in the moment. she's not recounting something that happened before, but she's creating right at that time to try to sell the story to her parents. >> holly, you say it's almost like the usual suspects. >> that's exactly what it is.

what she's done is taken tiny bits of her reality like jeffrey hopkins, that was a kid she went to grade school with. he takes the stand. now, he's supposedly the one who introduced her to zoo ni enaida was his girlfriend and her little son zachary was babysat by her. >> he said i haven't seen her since grade school. i never had a son. i never had anything. what we're seeing here is that she's crazy all right, not legally insane, but she's crazy like a fox and you and i were talking about earlier because she takes a little bit of reality and she weaves it in and that's what's going to cook her goose in this trial. >> leonard pitts, go ahead. >> i was just going to say, she has created a fantasy and chosen to live in it which is kind of pathetic, but again i agree with your guests that that's not going to save her at trial. that's going to -- and i can't improve upon the phrase, it's going to cook her goose. >> i want to know, drew, when

you're sitting in the courtroom, what is the expression on people's faces? >> there have been times that she just sits stone faced and doesn't really show any emotion, kind of stares into the computer screen. she's watching these videos as they're being played, and it's almost as if she's looking through the screen. i spent a good amount of time watching the jurors' reactions and early in the trial they really focused more on the judge and on the lawyers, but as these videos were played in monitors right in front of them, i noticed them looking up more at casey anthony and kind of trying to digest the two different caseys, the one she portrayed herself in court and the one that she is in these videos where she's telling her dad that there's still hope, telling her mom there's still hope that caylee can be alive. all the while the defense even now admits she knew caylee was dead. >> wendy, here is the thing, holly says she's crazy like a fox. so is there the possibility, i

have to ask and maybe you can weigh in as well, holly, of an insanity defense? is she insane? >> no. >> no. >> no, because -- >> absolutely not. >> the kind of lying -- the definition of the insanity is an inability to understand what they did was wrong, but her lying is all about covering her butt because she clearly nua she did was wrong. it's highly manipulative. by the way, don, when the jury looks to her face, what they're looking for are emotions. they're looking for remorse. they're looking for grieving. they're looking for loss, and when they see her stone face, this is not helping her case. >> and, don, you know what we really notice about her, i need to jump in here because what i've noticed is when she shows emotion is when it's about her. her mother was testifying and saying she was such a good mother and all of a sudden that's when we see casey crying because you're talking about casey. but when people are up there describing the little girl being missing, she's sitting there stone faced. when you hear her own words

being played back and what's really detrimental to her is it's not the words, it's the attitude. because i can say to you sitting here right now, don, i love your tie, or i could go, don, i love your tie. i use the exact same words but a completely different affect and that's what we're seeing on those tapes. we're seeing the real casey anthony. >> very interesting. go ahead, jim. ten seconds here and then we get to break. >> this is a traditional case of a false allegation of child abduction where the parent actually killed the child. that is what we have here. >> leonard, i know you want to get in, real quickly. >> i was going to say i think the word for all that you're describing a narcissism, plain and simple. >> there's definitely features of narcissism here. >> stand by, all of you. we'll have much more on our special report on the casey anthony trial straight ahead. first, other important news to tell you about including this -- gunfire ringing out in the streets of syria but protesters

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stories. syrian tanks reportedly surrounded a city after troops opened fire on protesters. human rights activists say some 80 people were shot to death. demonstrators had rallied to protest the alleged killing of dozens of children by security forces. the violence isn't silencing the protests either. thousands gathered today for funerals for the victims of friday's gunfire. a source tells cnn that yemen's wounded president is now in saudi arabia. president saleh is being treated at a riyadh hospital for injuries suffered in friday's attack. at least four people were killed when the palace's mosque was shelled. yemen's vice president is taking over the duties in the president's absence. government troops have been battling tribal militia in the capital but a tentative truce is now said to be holding. the man often described as al qaeda's military brain is

dead. that's the word from a militant group inside pakistan. kashmiri was reportedly killed by a drone air strike in pakistan. the u.s. and pakistani governments say they have not been able to confirm the report. kashmiri has been described as one of the most dangerous men in the world. this fire as i pull out, you can see how large it is. it spans swraen where from 30 miles plus south to north. >> multiple wildfires have burned more than 250,000 acres across the state of arizona, the largest, the wallow fire is in the east central part of the state. more than 1,000 people are battling the blaze, but so far no containment. 2,500 people have been evacuated. smoke and ash are reaching albuquerque some 200 miles away. and a long time u.s. diplomat lawrence eagleburger has died. he's the only career foreign service officer to rise to the post of secretary of state. he served american presidents from richard nixon to george h.w. bush. mr. bush today called

eagleburger a tireless and dedicated patriot. sunday marks the 30th anniversary of aids. u.s. health officials first reported it as a rare form of pneumonia on june 5th, 1981. well, tonight i spoke with stephanie laster, an african-american woman who made several panels for aids memorial quilt. she is, herself, hiv positive and tonight she is "what matters." >> what i do when i make the quilt panels, i make them so that in the statistics where we hear about it's 30 million people every day or whatever, each panel represents a person. >> right. >> and i make the quilts so that we'll know it's not just a number, this was a person in my life that i loved. >> and this is ricardo, someone that you loved. >> yes. >> let's take a look at this one. what is this? >> this is a brother and a

sister, this is my mom and my uncle, and this shows pictures when they were kids, as they've grown up. >> you seem like you're getting a little emotional when you talk about this. >> i do, i do. >> why? >> not only is it putting a face to the number, but it's also a healing process, and what we have to do is we've got to get away from the fear and the stigma that keeps us from talking about hiv because that's what continues to keep it rampant in our communities because it's such a shush-shush thing. >> san. >> i g >> sanjay super gupta will have more on this. next, back to our special report, the casey anthony trial. what would you do if your child was missing?

>> what do you recall about meeting miss anthony on that date? >> she seemed like a fun party girl. somebody that would probably get along well with our group of friends. [ female announcer ] you've never had red lobster like this before. your own complete four-course seafood feast for $15. start with soup, like our hearty new england clam chowder. then enjoy a fresh salad with unlimited cheddar bay biscuits, followed by your choice of one of seven entrees, like new shrimp & scallops alfredo, spicy coconut & citrus shrimp, or wood-grilled fresh tilapia. then finish with something sweet, all for just $15. right now at red lobster. [ male announcer ] in 2011, at&t is at work, building up our wireless network all across america. we're adding new cell sites...

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during the time period that she was living with you, did she ever tell you that her daughter was missing? >> no. >> did she ever tell you that her daughter had been kidnapped? >> no. >> did she ever tell you that while you were out in classes, she was out looking for her daughter? >> no. >> did she at any time ever ask you for any help in trying to find her daughter? >> no. >> was there ever a time when you were at fusian with the defendant that she participated in a contest? >> yes, sir. >> what type of contest was that? >> it was a hot body contest. >> the nights that you were at fusian with the defendant, what can you tell the jury about her overall demeanor? >> she was partying and having a

good time. >> when you say partying, are you talking about drinking? >> drinking, yes, sir. >> was she dancing? >> yes, sir. >> did she ever display any emotion to you that would indicate that she was upset about anything? >> no. >> did she appear happy? >> yes. >> have you since found out that caylee was dead during this time? >> yes, i have. >> souning joining me now holly hughes, wendy walsh, jim clemente, drew petrimol orlando reporter, and leonard pitts, washington syndicated columnist. drew, is he a credible witness on the stand when you saw him? >> were you talking about her friends? well, the prosecution really rolled out a parade of her friends in the beginning of this trial, and all of them really

had the same message. that casey anthony had no signs that anything was wrong during that month that her daughter hadn't been seen. she was going to bars partying, sleepovers, renting movies with her boyfriend, going to a fourth of july celebration. really not letting on at all that anything was wrong. of course, that's kind of what the defense theory is though, that she's been so sexually abused, so physically and mentally abused, that she stashes her pain deep back in the back of her head and can act like everything is okay. >> jim clemente, go ahead. >> in my opinion, that behavior is something completely different. what it actually is, is that she's in a position where finally she's free. she has released the burden of the one thing that she couldn't get rid of legally, which was her daughter, and the fact that the daughter was now gone, she could go out and party un unhindered by her responsibilities in life.

>> don, it's very common with mothers who kill their child to have a kind of idealized fantasy life in their mind that they want to lead. there have been reports during this time she got a tattoo that said beautiful life. we just heard she entered a hot body contest. she was living the life of a party girl lying that she even had a career or where she was living or working, lying through her teeth on everything, but living this idealized life that she wanted free from her daughter. >> that's absolutely right, don. i have to jump in, because what we see is the night that her daughter goes missing, the very day, june 16th, 2008, that anyone last sees her, what does she do that night? show goes to tony lazaro's her boyfriend at the time, she moves in. and she doesn't go home after that. her mother has to literally track her down threw her friend amy, have amy take her to the new boyfriend's house, and drag her out of there and say, you're not going anywhere until you tell me where that baby is. you're coming home right now. the day --

>> amy -- >> the day that girl went missing, she went and moved in with tony lazaro. that was her brand new life, her freedom. >> amy was a key witness for the prosecution because she said they'd had these conversations, her and casey, where casey would complain that she couldn't really have the social life that she wanted to have because she had to stay home with caylee. so prosecutors really wanted to point that out, that could be a possible motive for what she ended up doing. >> let's be honest about this. casey anthony is a good looking woman. you see the dress there, you know, everything that makes a good story, and let's just be quite honest. she's a white woman. >> yes, absolutely, that's true. >> there's more interest in cases because there are thousands of kids who go missing who turn up dead every day. >> every day. >> every day. >> horrifying. >> go i a heaahead, leonard.

>> if caylee had been named shasha shanque, if kalie was a boy we would not be having this discussion and this story would not be the national/international sensation it is. >> i agree, and, don, i totally agree and i also want to add that this story -- i was a news reporter back during the o.j. simpson trial and it reminds me a lot of the o.j. simpson trial. had it not been a famous athlete, had his wife not been a beautiful blond, had there not been stories of domestic violence in the past and maybe a young boyfriend that she had, the media probably wouldn't have been excited about it, but the fact we have nightclub pictures of a beautiful girl and, yes, there's a race piece to it, a beautiful white girl in nightclubs in florida who is just partying and a parade of boyfriends and the illusion of promiscuity, this is the lurid details that is making america

interested in this story. >> lie after lie after lie is what we're learning casey anthony told friends, family, even investigators. jurists heard several hours of police interviews. >> everything you told us is a lie, every single thing. yes, and you can't keep sitting here and telling us the same thing and getting constantly over and over and over again we're disproving what you're telling us. you're giving us misinformation, everything you're telling us. this needs to end. [ male announcer ] great tasting tap water can now come from any faucet anywhere. introducing the brita bottle with the filter inside. the two trains and a bus rider. the "i'll sleep when it's done" academic. for 80 years, we've been inspired by you. and we've been honored to walk with you to help you get where you want to be.

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detectives are tired of casey's lies. >> i know that everything you have told me is a lie. >> it's recorded, the jury, all of us, we got to hear it. >> she's out there somewhere, her rotten body is starting to decompose. >> she doesn't crack there at all. >> that's some of the best evidence. >> police had busted casey on the fictional zani the nanny. >> this stuff about zani, it's not the truth. >> another lie. >> universal studios. >> she's coming up to the security gate with two officers. >> and she finally fesses up. >> put her hands in the back pocket and said i don't work here. >> what would inspire her to lie at this point. >> so many lies. >> i can't figure it out. >> i have to say great coverage by our sister networks hln and also "in session" on trutv. leonard pitts, you were making a point before the break, go ahead. >> i was just making a point this is what i call the dam sell

in distress syndrome. not only a racial bias but a gender bias. there's also a case to be made looking at this case in the larger context of similar cases, there's also a case to be made there's a sexism thing going on. the only time we seem to see this spotlight is when there's a young and white woman who is perceived as being dangerous. it sort of reinforces the stereotype of the helpless damsel in distress. >> let's not forget that there is -- this is the victim, this little beautiful face right there. it's a little girl, and we shouldn't forget that. >> right. and not the only victim. when you look at those grandparents on the stand, when you look at george and cindy anthony and you hear george talk about she called me joe-joe and i helped change her diapers and potty train her. when you see cindy anthony completely fall apart on the stand, don, she is leaning forward, she cannot even hold herself up physically. her body is wracked with sobs,

they're victims, too. whatever you think of them and wharf they did or didn't do to help the investigation, these are grieving grandparents. they raised that little girl. she lived in their house, that beautiful little 2-year-old that we see singing "you are my sunshine," that's their grand baby. >> jim -- >> they're feel wag their daughter can't. >> jim clemente, you worked on this case and there are certain things you can't reveal on it, but from the evidence that's in public now what do you think of casey anthony and where this is going to end? >> don, obviously that's going to be a question for the jury to decide in the end. she's innocent until proven guilty. however, when you look at her leading her parents and investigators on a wild goose chase, looking up chloroform, the incredible lies she told, the false job, the false nanny, the false allegations of child abduction, the postmortem banding on the hair and the smell in her car, all those things are very, very damning.

but her behavior just screams out, her behavior during this entire time just screams out that it's very inconsistent with innocent behavior. >> again, tim, i'm going to ask you again because i know you know about this case and again as i said, there are certain things you can't say, but is she for lack of a better term, toast here? >> let me just tell you, don, the investigators who worked this case directly and investigate that's work all child abduction cases dove into it 24/7 for the entire time until they realized that she was actually killed by her mother. she did everything they could to find this little girl. unfortunately, that wasted resources because obviously casey was leading them on a wild goose chase even by her own admissions now. so it wasted a lot of resources. there are other kids out there that actually were missing at the same time in that whole time period. it took resources away from

them. >> right. >> don, can i jump in here and answer your question? is she toast? get out the butter and jam, honey, because she is going down. and here is why. her own words, she said it best. one of her girlfriends testified last week they're driving in the car, casey gets a telephone call. she says i can't come and hang out with you, my car is broken down, the very car she's driving. she disconnects the call, throws the phone down and says to her friend, i am such a good liar. i would have loved to have seen the jury's face when they heard the defendant bragging about what a great liar she is. this isn't something she did because she's a victim of sexual abuse and she is forced into it. she's proud of this skill. yeah, butter it up, baby. >> i'm going to keep you guys around. we're going to do more on this. we're going to talk about the fascination with this case. this looks like people chasing after their favorite celebrity or going to a sporting event, but they're actually racing to

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what in the world is going on? holly hughes is a criminal defense attorney and a former

prosecutor. wendy walsh is in l.a., a human behavior expert. jim clemente in l.a. a retired fbi special agent and adviser. drew is from orlando, he's a reporter for wdbo radio and leonard pitts, washington, syndicated columnist and winner of a pulitzer prize for commentary. drew, i don't know if you have had a chance to witness any of this, but is it that sort of behavior -- obviously the judge does not allow that to happen in court. >> people have been very well-behaved inside the courtroom but what we've learned for this trial is there's an intense interest on exactly what is happening inside the courtroom. the arguments back and forth between lawyers. in fact, we've seen one by one the local tv stations go wall to wall and broadcast the entire proceedings that happen, but there have been no outbursts in court. the judge, judge perry, runs a very tight ship inside the courtroom and promised anyone that does any outbursts about 180 days in jail. so people have been well-behaved

inside. there's an intense interest though on this case here. >> former fbi special agent jim clemente, you have probably taken a number of these types of cases to court. what's the fascination with this? do you find anything different with this particular trial? >> well, don, i have worked literally hundreds of child abduction cases. this only happens in certain cases when the victims fit a certain stereotypical type. i mean, jonbenet ramsey, elizabeth smart. you know, these are cases that have garnered international interest in the media. it's the media response that causes, i think, these people to respond in such an amazingly ridiculous, inappropriate way. i think it doesn't happen inside the courtroom, that's not what justice is all about. but outside we're seeing this kind of media built up frenzy. >> that's a good question for leonard pitts. is it the tail wagging the dog

here? is it the media that's causing this or what's going on here? >> i think the media are exacerbating it. i think the immediating a media into that movie of the week syndro syndrome. it used to be entertainment was somebody singing or dancing or telling a joke or doing some dramatic acting. now we have come to the point where entertainment is those things perhaps but it's also the trials and tragedies like this, from a lindsay lohan with her drunk driving problems, a paris pillton so something even more significant like this. it's not just viewed as sort of a tragedy that we want to stay up to date on. it is -- it's a celebrity thing. it's an act of entertainment. it's something we want to follow in that way and i think that says a lot about media. frankly, i think it also says a lot about uses a american people. >> i have to ask you this, holly, because there are people who are taking their vacations to go down to this trial and

it's mostly women, and you see them high fiving each other. high fiving each other. two guys there but mostly women. this is a real life -- this is a tragedy but to them it's spectator. >> it is. you know what it reminds me of? back in the day when they used to do public lynchings and hangings and beheadings in the square. >> it's the same thing. >> something in us like that train wreck. >> wendy, go ahead. >> yeah. i wouldn't blame the media entirely, although the media, of course, is the calling card if you will that lets people know where the show is playing, but certainly we have this urge inside all of us. we're not far away from being hunters and gatherers where a little bit of violence is inside of us. plenty of it is acted out cathartically in games and movies. but like holly said, there is this lurid attraction. the trial here i don't think is about whether she did it, it's about whether she's going to get

the death penalty or life. >> leonard, did you want to jump in? >> i was going to say i agree the impulse exists in us in human beings. i'm saying media sort of ex lout it and feed upon it for commercial gain and that's sort of becomes a thing that self perpetuates and makes itself worse all the time. this is the bottom. you talk about women high-fiving. >> i want to get our viewers in here. this is for jim. or whoever can answer this. did casey anthony discuss incest or if he thinks that is just a poor defense tactic. that's for you, jim. >> well, when the defense made that statement in court, it was the first time anyone had heard anything like that. >> okay. someone says and why would a molested child leave her own daughter alone with this, quote, evil grandpa then praise him greatest dad ever, please? >> that's exactly right. it makes no sense and to backtrack just a minute, if you