feel of an obama court. if some people on the left or liberals are disenchanted with obama tacting right center, he can constantly say we're talking about the supreme court for the next 20 or 30 years. i've put two obama people center left even into the court and you might want me down the line to do another one too. >> thanks so much. appreciate you coming in. that's all from us tonight. "in the arena" starts right now. good evening and thank you for joining us in "in the arena." i'm christine romans sitting in tonight. eliot spitzer is on vacation. new york is the here and that was a gay marriage advocate talking hoping that this is the week that same-sex unions become law in the pivotal state of new york. these are the closing days of

the state's legislative session. the last chance to push through a measure that needs just one more vote for passage. at the capitol in albany, the war among hundreds of protesters has been hot and relentless. the outcome of this vote in new york is seen as key on a national level. it's believed that it will influence pending votes across the country. gay marriage is the kwint sengsal hot button issue that makes politicians run for the exits. listen to what the president's spokesperson said today about barack obama's position. >> the president's position on gay marriage has been clear since '08 and is clear again since he's been president. he's been very clear about it. he was very clear in the campaign. he was very clear about the fact that his position that it is evolving. >> evolving. there is one politician who must make up his mind right now.

greg ball is a state senator who is undecided. i'll talk to him in just a moment. first, a look at the other stories we're drilling down on tonight. in syria, words can kill. after weeks of violent protests, syria's president speaks out and puts the blame on everyone except himself. is it too late to prevent a civil war. defense secretary robert gates is leaving office but he sure isn't going quietly. e.d. hill looks at his outrageous statement. the mormon moment. a big hit on broadway. romney for president and here comes john huntsman. our political panel debates is america ready for a latter day saint in the white house. now back to the gay marriage proposal in new york i'm joined by republican state senator greg ball, undecided voter for a bill that needs just one more vote.

welcome to the program. >> good evening. how are you? >> it takes just one more vote. what is holding you back in particular? >> you know, i think it's clearly important. you talked a little bit about this issue. you know, the amount of anger and hate that's on both sides. both on the extreme left and the extreme right. we're not talking about passage of civil unions which i think would pass right away and very easily. we have a governor who is pushing to get full marriage equality and to that extent there need to be real religious protections in any final piece of legislation. i've been fighting for that for a couple weeks now. the governor at first had a knee-jerk reaction against it but i believe that we'll finally see some real religious protection in any final bill. >> let's talk about those religious protections. the concern among other republicans as well is this could somehow come back to hurt a religious organization who wouldn't perform a same-sex marriage and would be sued or

for example for religious group that would want to -- or adoptions. they could somehow get tied up in this. how are those being addressed to you? the concerns that this could hurt religious groups? >> first, it has to be laid out there. we have seen this happen in other states that have done this. we're not talking in some fairy land. we're talking about something very real. we don't want to see this play out in new york state. there are three basic category. religious institutions themselves. the actual individuals who conduct those marriages, those ceremonies, are not necessarily protected within the language of the bill. you have religious organizations. knights of columbus is an example and whether or not they would be open up to lawsuits and have their not for profit tax exempt status challenged or

whether from a regulatory perspective their permits could be pulled. that has not been laid out in the context of the bill that came out last week. i would be a no if that stays. the toughest ones come to religious individuals with religious objections. the government needs to pay respect to that side of the argument. >> you are on the fence. there's a half dozen who are on the fence here. if you got all of the protections that you say you need there, then in theory you support gay marriage in new york? >> you know, what i would say and i look at it from a different angle, without religious protections i would be an absolute no and the other senators i can't speak for them. i can tell you that without the religious protections from my personal perspective, i don't see how the governor gets it done. i have spoken to the governor personally on this and his staff

has said those religious protections aren't as important as you think. this governor has to understand -- >> either you support same-sex marriage or you don't. the rest of that then becomes politics and it becomes dotting is and crossing ts and making sure stake holders get what they want. >> dotting the is and crossing the ts is what we're supposed to do as responsible legislature. read the bill is important. i'm not going to support a bill that the governor hasn't released yet. >> you want to make sure there's no unintended consequences and make sure that this is a clean bill but if it's clean and you're sure there will be no unintended consequences, you support gay marriage in new york? >> just so you understand just like there are those on the right who don't necessarily appreciate those on the left who view it as a civil rights issue, there are those on the left

pushing the bill advising the governor who do not really pay respect to the fact that there are those on the right who view it as a front to their firmly held religious beliefs. i believe this governor is pushing from the left but he needs to pay attention to those in the middle with common sense and that's all that those religious protections would do. like i said, i think that there are other senators who feel that those religious protections are extremely important. >> what are your constituents telling you? you took to facebook and twitter. you asked them. people on facebook were 50/50. people on twitter said make it legal. >> you know, the folks on twitter are contacting me from everywhere from the third planet off mars and netherlands and new york state. >> they may not be your constituents is what you're saying. >> they're not. the other thing is that twitter page connects to facebook. i do this on issues rather often. i have 5,000 facebook friends most of them within district. i would say my facebook page is breaking 50-50.

the calls coming into my office are about 60-40 against. i would say that those who are against are in my base. people have stood by me through tough elections. those who are for i have never seen them before. >> you will vote your conscience. you are going to lead on this issue. you will pitch and not catch? >> look, you got to always do the right thing in your heart and in your brain but you also represent -- we represent over 300,000 people. i have a responsibility to them. at the end of the day this vote is going to be one of conscience. >> we'll watch very closely later this week to see, senator ball, if you will be one of those votes that makes this legal in the sixth state in the nation. thank you for joining us. we really appreciate it. >> you got it. thank you. lieutenant dan choi is an iraq war veteran after publicly admitting he was gay, his military career ended. now he's an advocate for gay and lesbian rights. welcome lieutenant choi. >> great to be with you.

>> let's talk about what's happening in new york. how important to you is what happens in the outcome of this vote and it rests in the hands of a handful of legislators. >> it is absolutely important. i fought for this country and for those neighbors that are gay or straight so they can have peace and security and raise a family and we simply want the same thing. when i hear senator ball who also has committed to serving his constituents, i understand exactly what his thinking is because just as he's committed to his community and his people, i'm committed to the one person i want to love so much that i want to say that we'll support each other for the rest of our lives. i see this bill as not an issue of religion but an issue of love. every religion can understand that. we should increase the love. >> you have hopes of marrying one day, legally marrying one day? >> i know it will happen. i have fought for many things in

this uniform but of all things i fought for, all of the treasures i know that love is the most worthwhile. >> what about what's happening in albany when it comes down to handful of opponents saying this is religious protections. there are some religious groups who don't want to perform a marriage and don't want to find themselves in the middle of legislation. >> in massachusetts we simply wanted religious groups not to have the government funding in order to discriminate against certain families and i would certainly love to raise a child and teach them how to serve their country especially with my experiences in iraq where so many religious groups tour that country apart and the civil strife and disagreements really did not help for the national dialogue. i think what we have to realize is we swore to defend this country all people in this country. i would give my life to defend senator ball and i know that's going to be hard for him on tv

to say whether he commits or not but i know that tomorrow morning or the morning after he votes, he will have to look himself in the mirror and say was i on the right side of justice. >> i'll be honest with you, there are politicians making choices every day not because of conscience but because of politics. that's the way it works. i'm not saying senator ball. there's conscience and politics. there's a base you have to appeal to and people who put you in office and there's what you think is right and evolving national perceptions of things. >> i'm not a politician. i do call on all of my leaders from the president on down to community leaders and church leaders that if you want to fight for america in the way that it was meant to be, you will increase the love and increase the human dignity of all people in your communities. >> all right. lieutenant dan choi, thank you for bringing your perspective on this. i'm sure you are watching this very closely here. do you believe this is a bellwether. what happens in new york will be influential for votes across the

country? >> new york is where things happen. i think that it will happen here and it's a matter of whether we're on the right side of that progress. >> new yorkers tend to think what happens in new york is a bellwether. on this issue it is the hot button issue and a lot of people are watching this. thank you so much. coming up, one minute a trusted adviser to president obama. the next minute he's running against him. our political panel weighs in on john huntsman and his chances but first e.d. hill. he used to pick and choose words carefully but you tell us about it. >> shackles are off is what's going on. less than two weeks left as defense secretary and robert gates is exactly what he thinks about other governments, nato and how we pick and choose where to send american troops. we'll get perspective of one of his predecessors. >> thanks. when we come back, profits and politics. stay with us. to save some money on our car insurance. great! at progressive, you can compare rates side by side,

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leaving you at greater risk for heart attack and stroke. your doctor may use genetic tests to determine treatment. don't stop taking plavix without talking to your doctor as your risk of heart attack or stroke may increase. people with stomach ulcers or conditions that cause bleeding should not use plavix. taking plavix alone or with some other medicines, including aspirin, may increase bleeding risk, which can potentially be life threatening, so tell your doctor when planning surgery. tell your doctor all medicines you take, including aspirin, especially if you've had a stroke. if fever, unexplained weakness or confusion develops, tell your doctor promptly. these may be signs of ttp, a rare but potentially life-threatening condition, reported sometimes less than two weeks after starting plavix. brace yourselves. you're about to see something rare in american politics. former ambassador to china john huntsman until recently a key adviser to president obama, a powerful member of his administration will officially break ranks to announce his own

run for the white house. huntsman campaign kicks off tomorrow in liberty state park, new jersey. texas governor rick perry is waiting in the wings. for more on the race, i'm joined by david gergen, james carville and republican strategy tony lankly. quick thoughts on president obama's lead man in china, the number one proponent of his policies of the world's second largest economy now gone from adviser and our man in china to the president's opponent. it's really a remarkable turn. >> it is a fascinating moment in american politics. not at all well known here in this country. i think there was a poll in iowa asking about preferences and one person said they would like to see john huntsman. if you look at him on paper, he

is one of the most credential people we've had run in this race. if he can make it, if he can get some sparks going, there are smart people who think he can be a formidable candidate. >> does it help him or hurt him. here he was an insider. i heard him dismissed as a democrat almost because he worked for this administration. does it help him because he is the one with the credibility to stand up and say i know the president's policies and know the president's economic plan and i decide i don't like it. >> he has a pretty good answer. he's answered with a good answer. he's also been for the individual mandate. he thinks global warming is man-made. i don't think he fits very well into the profile of what republicans are looking for. he seems like an accomplished guy. he speaks mandarin chinese. seems to have as far as i can tell a good record as governor of utah. i don't think the shoe is going to fit here. >> let me ask a question then.

here is the next thing. now you have two mormons in the race and according to a new survey, 22% of americans are reluctant to vote for a mormon including 20% of republicans and a whopping 27% of democrats. can huntsman or mitt romney hope to overcome this challenge overall and win the nomination? tony? >> that that's for tony. sorry. >> i think he can. the fact that 27% is in democratic party might suggest that higher percentage of african-americans may because mormonism wasn't friendly to african-americans. can an effective candidate who runs a good campaign who is a

mormon win on the republican party, i think he could. whether this man can make that profile, we'll see. >> david? >> let me just add this. two things. one is it's important -- i think a mormon can win. it's important to remember that the year before john kennedy won as a catholic 25% of the country said they wouldn't support a catholic. they were against a catholic in the presidency. this is a country that just elected an african-american. no other advanced country has shown that kind of embrace of someone like that. i think that they would embrace a mormon. >> i want to make one clear point here. there's absolutely no evidence that the mormon church exercises any influence over mormon politicians. harry reid is a mormon. senator hatch is a mormon. go look at their voting record. mormons serve this country with distinction for a long time and

would i vote for harry reid if i lived in nevada, i would send him a check. wouldn't matter to me. wouldn't matter to me if someone else did. i think this is in my mind it should be a nonstarter in anybody's mind. there's record of mormons serving with distinction. >> the other thing is that mormon business people that we know have created a lot of jobs. including his father who i have known for 40 years who is a terrific guy. they come from very good family. they are very, very good at creating jobs. >> that's a good point. jobs is what's so important here. tony, i want to ask you about this abortion pledge making the rounds. there are some who are suggesting that all of this talk again about some of what used to be called wedge issues is taking a little bit of the focus away from the fact that we have a jobs problem and there are still maybe suspect a clear and easy solution out of the jobs problem and so are things like this abortion pledge that's going around that mitt romney by the way refused to sign, is that

taking the eye off the ball or are these legitimate concerns for base voters? >> i don't think the republican will get the nomination if they're not right to life. i agree with romney. i'm not a supporter of him but he took the right position saying i'm not going to sign pledges that waive my right to make appointment as president of the united states. you don't know whether an attorney general or senior justice official you want to hire for some reason other than the abortion issue and this pledge goes well beyond what the traditional right to life position expects. it talks about defunding possibly -- ambiguous. defending every hospital in the country. i think romney was right not to focus on this. i think he shows some integrity and guts. i think he took the right position and will not be hurt by it. >> i want to bring in rick perry, another republican. flirting with a run. maybe his supporters are trying to get him to make a run. he gave a speech to the

republican leadership conference this weekend. i want to listen to it quickly. >> let's stand up. let's speak with pride about our morals and our values and redouble our effort to elect more conservative republicans. let's stop this american downward spiral. >> david gergen, do you think he'll run for president? >> i think there's a good chance he will. there's an increasing cry among republicans to get another conservative in the race. someone who is exciting. michelle bachmann has ignited audiences in iowa and new hampshire. rick perry would have that same effect. he would be quickly in the top tier. i believe that mitt romney would be the front runner. >> carville? >> i think -- i hope he runs. >> why do you hope he runs? tell me why.

>> because anybody that talked about succession needs to run for president. plus, you know, he talks a lot and he's not very bright and that's a combination i like in republicans. >> if james is doing a briar patch for him, i think perry must be a pretty good candidate. >> i definitely hope -- i want sarah palin to run. understand i want a big field here. the more the merrier. i agree that romney just seems like such a front runner. more money than anyone else. new hampshire primary lines up nicely for him. every time i think that he's got to get the nomination, i get a doubt that a lot of republicans just have a lot of doubt things. it will be interesting to see. he has a lot of pressure on him. he should win. >> it's only just beginning. the twist and turns. i can't wait.

james carville, david gergen, tony blankley. thank you. why was hillary clinton driving in the wrong direction when we come back. ♪

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the ban against women driving in saudi arabia dates back to a 1991 religious issue.

there's no written law against it. in saudi arabia it's understood that women don't drive. all that was before the debate over women driving was brought into the spotlight last month. a saudi woman was arrested for organizing an online campaign to encourage women there to drive. now a group is petitioning secretary of state hillary clinton to speak out on their behalf. islamic writer says not so fast. change can't come and shouldn't come from the outside. she joins me now from albuquerque. welcome to the program. first, i want to have you in your own words explain to our viewers who can't see your face why it is that you wear that. after september 11th. you made the choice to do so. explain it to us. >> first of all, i would like to thank you for having me on the show. i am wearing the islamic face veil and the reason i have chosen to cover this way is i feel like it's something better for me in terms of my modesty

and it's also my way of fighting against the systematic oppression and sexualization of women that we find in american society that tries to put a woman's value in her body. people have to deal with my brain out in public because i don't give them a choice. >> i want you to explain it for yourself. i ask you quickly your response to this petition online to have the american secretary of state weigh in on the driving ban or cultural taboo against women driving. there are those in saudi arabia and around the world frankly who would like to have them weigh in on us. you say she shouldn't. why? >> i think first of all i've talked to several scholars. i've talked to many scholars and they say this is not a religious issue. nothing prevents a woman from driving. and saudi arabia is the only country banning women from

driving. it's not a religious issue. it's a cultural issue. it's based on their values and their culture and historic development. and i think that if this kind of reform is going to come about, it has to be grassroots organic movement that has to start out from the women inside saudi arabia and they need to figure out for themselves what is women's rights and what is freedom for them and then they need to reach a critical mass and bring that change about themselves. now, if it's forcibly imposed from the outside, first of all, it's not going to work. it's yet again us forcing our values and our perspective on another culture we don't understand. i have never lived in saudi arabia. i am born and raised in america. for me i have had a driver's license since i was 16. i can't imagine not driving. for them it's a different situation. >> it's been really from the inside women started putting the videos on youtube. they started sending them to each other to get support to do it. and then with technology it became more clear that more and

more women were trying to do this and many were not being caught. and it became sort of a groundswell. now it sounds as though some groups are looking to outside for reinforcement. do you dispute that there is this grassroots event happening inside the country where women are getting emboldened in doing it? >> i totally believe that it exists. i think they have the right to peacefully protest and push for their rights. i talked to saudi women and people that live in saudi arabia and for them they say for many women this is not their issue. they are fighting for health care. they are fighting for security. they are fighting for social equality. and just like the face veil or driving, it's really a surface issue. that's not really their concern and besides in their culture you have two things. first, a lot of the major cities in saudi arabia are set up like new york city where people don't have cars. it's a pedestrian city.

it's not an issue. >> do you say the women in saudi arabia don't need to drive? >> what i'm saying is perhaps for women who it is an issue for them, they see the reason for it and there are reasons for women to drive if not only safety issues. a woman needs that ability. if they don't even own a car because it's a pedestrian city and it's just like in new york city it's not an issue because they don't own a car. another issue is in saudi arabia in that culture, driving is something that is a service class. so for example women believe that it's an upper class thing to be driven around and to them it would be probably degrading to drive themselves around. it's not what i think or what you think. what it means is what does society and culture internally think and it has to come from women had a want to drive. if you have a western source -- >> it sounds like you marginalizing a movement inside this country to give women a right that they currently don't have. are you marginalizing that movement? >> absolutely not.

i think from internally it has to grow organically and they have to reach that critical mass and change from within. it's happening. there's many, many reforms that have existed and have occurred within saudi society but if it's forcibly imposed from the outside, it's never going to work. you might actually end up hurting the cause because you'll have a rebellion against a western influence. >> i see if you are a supporter of this inside the country some women there are clamoring for a seal of approval from the secretary of state in this country. look, this is a huge country that is a powerful ally of the united states, that is a huge supplier of energy for the united states and women there are not allowed to drive. it's something that american women, many american women, find c confounding and would like the secretary of state to weigh in on it but maybe the trick for the white house and for the state department is not to rile up the saudi elite. >> also we as americans need to have our credibility with the

middle east and muslim countries. when we go around judging and passing judgments based on our value systems and condemning other country systems and cultures then we're not going to have that clout for negotiation and for credibility. you know, we really need to stay out of other people's affairs. this isn't about evil. it's about a society changing over time. look at the top story that you had on the show. our own country is still trying to figure out conservative versus liberal values and religious rights versus human rights. we haven't got it either. it's our struggle. >> you talk about two stories on two different levels. two different places in the curve of evolution there. a point well taken. thank you so much for joining us. really appreciate your time tonight. coming up, death and taxes. my next guest says only one of those things is a certainty. he may decide if we extend the debt ceiling or go into default. stay with us.

there's a rift growing among conservatives in washington. on one side are folks who believe the road to reducing the deficit requires both spending cuts and raising taxes. on the other side those who refuse to raise taxes under any circumstances. senator tom colburn is leading the cause. recently he's been butting heads

with a man named norquist gathering signatures who pledge to never vote to raise taxes. welcome to the program. >> hi. good to be with you. >> nice to see you again. we had senator simpson on the program recently one of the co-chairs of the president's deficit reduction commission as you know. here's what senator simpson had to say about your opposition to the ethanol vote. >> calling him a malignant cancer. how can a guy like grover rip remarkable conservative like tom colburn and pretend he has any credibility whatsoever. >> i suspect you guys are all friends. how do you respond here? >> the obama commission that

senator simpson co-chaired recommended a $2 trillion tax increase as a way to increase taxes to pay for obama's larger government. when obama was elected, we spent $2.8 trillion. obama has taken it up to $3.8 trillion. so 1 trillion more is being spent every year since obama became president. huge jump. the question is do we bring that spending down. that's what the 2010 election was. bring that down. or do we raise taxes to make the bigger government the new normal? unfortunately what senator simpson voted for is according to congressman paul ryan who is on the commission and voted no a $2 trillion tax increase. my argument and the house and senate said no tax increase. obama is busting the bank with

spending. spending has to come down. >> you make it sound so simple. americans for tax reform, a taxpayer protection pledge asking members of congress and senate to pledge that they will never, ever, ever raise taxes and they will oppose any elimination of deductions or credits or subsidies unless matched dollar for dollar by further cutting tax deduction. when we talk about ethanol controversy, this is people like senator colburn saying is way to get money back and shrinking that big government that you're talking about. >> i have supported emaim natli the entire ethanol program. he said he supports the mandate. that's the expensive destruction part of the ethanol program and

colburn is a cheerleader for it. that's a huge problem. what we need to do is get rid of deductions and credits and do that as ftax reform to have lowr taxes overall. >> what's the real chance of real tax reform? i mean real tax reform where you get rid of loopholes and credits and get rid of subsidies and have simple and understandable tax system? politically you look at the rift in the republican party right now or among conservatives and deficit hawks right now, is it even possible? >> it's extremely possible. there's no rift. mr. colburn is out by his lonesome. not going to get through the senate. what we're going to do after the next election in 2012 when the republicans will capture the senate because they are 23 democrats up and only 10 republicans, that's when with a

republican house and republican senate and different president we can take marginal tax rates down to 25% and broaden the base as tax reform and not a tax increase but tax reform. that's part of the paul ryan plan that the republicans in the house and the senate are supporting. >> in the meantime before you go through messy politics to make anything like that happen, you have to raise the debt ceiling. you have an august 2nd deadline here. vice president biden says there's been a full scrub of the federal budget but we're running out of time. are they playing chicken with the debt ceiling? >> look, vice president biden is part of running up spending by $1 trillion a year and he says we can't reduce it. of course we can reduce it. what mr. boehner, the republican speaker of the house and mr. mitch mcconnell, the senate leader in the senate, both have

said if the president wants the debt ceiling increased by $1 trillion, he has to sign off in a trillion in real spending reductions. if he wants a -- >> it was easy to cut $30 billion. it will be easy to cut $2 billion. >> president of the united states was fighting against it. he'll get with the program and undo damage he's done. he's killed millions of jobs with spending already. we need to stop the damage that obama is doing to the economy. >> okay, look, we don't have time to get into the economics of stimulus versus negative drag of running such large deficits but there are those who would argue that all of that spending no matter who was the president you would have seen all of that spending because the economy was on the abyss and they were just trying to do whatever they could to keep it going again. >> it didn't work. the president killed jobs when he did that. it was a mistake. >> there was an argument to be

made about what do you do next? what do you do with an august 2 deadline hanging over us. so much to chew over. can't wait to talk to you about it again. thanks for being with us tonight. in syria, president had a chance to calm waters and instead he threw fuel on the fire. a country about to combust when we come back. r advanced aspirin. it has microparticles so it enters the bloodstream faster and rushes relief right to the site of your tough pain. ♪ in fact, it's clinically proven to relieve pain twice as fast. new bayer advanced aspirin. extra strength pain relief, twice as fast.

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i'm christine romans. eliot spitzer is on vacation. today the syrian president gave only his third public speech since syria's uprising erupted in march. the president said that the widespread national demonstrations were what he called those hijacking the syria's people for political reform and also called for thousands of syrians who have fled their homes to return home. not surprisingly, some demonstrators did not embrace his message. take a look. in this video said to be filmed today in a town bordering turkey, protesters threw their shoes at a picture of assad. will assad's speech have an impact in quelling the opposition? >> so far from everything that we have heard in particular from the opposition is that they do not buy the goods that he has offered. i think even though there was a new approach, even though there was a new language, this was a

decisively different speech from the last two speeches that he has given in the last few months. this should have been the first speech as opposed to the last speech. even though he has offered a package of reforms, the devil lies in the details. >> more than 1,100 people have been reportedly killed since assad unleashed his forces against protesters. up next, defense secretary robert gates is not going gently into the good night. e.d. hill takes a look at his noisy departure from power when we come back. sensuous leather interior and modern design, jaguar has once again raised the bar. learn more at jaguarperforms.com. is best absorbed in small continuous amounts. only one calcium supplement does that in one daily dose. new citracal slow release... continuously releases calcium plus d for the efficient absorption my body needs. citracal.

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news tonight, president obama will soon announce his plans for troop withdrawal from afghanistan. a person crucial to the strategy is defense secretary robert gates who is just days away from retirement. it seems the fewer the days left, the greater his willingness to speak candidly and shockingly on nato, the taliban and our allies. what's going on? to help us understand, we're joined by the man who has been in the same position. former defense secretary william kohn. what do you think of this frankness? last week it was announced that governments lie to each other. that's the way we do business. and then also we're in preliminary talks with the taliban. were you surprised by sort of the bluntness? >> well, i'm not surprised from bob gates because he's been a plain spoken individual.

he tends to in teddy roosevelt's words speak softly and carry a big stick and has been carrying more of that in the last few months as his term of office winds down. he's been very candid straight from the shoulder and that's something that we're in desperate need for in this time of crisis. >> absolutely right. i agree with you. it's refreshing and wonderful to have someone actually say what they think and what they believe the truth is. it also leaves you with a lot of questions. when he said we're in preliminary negotiations with the taliban, first thing i thought was wait a second. these are the guys that we have been fighting against. the people who had outlawed women having an education and that had outlawed any kind of really rights for women and they were the ones running the opium ring in afghanistan. they certainly aren't the democratically elected group ho there. does that surprise you? >> the administration is trying

to celebrate taliban from al qaeda. assuming you can make that separation, go forward and try to separate out taliban from each other namely find those taliban willing to lay down their arms and willing to work with a government to bring about stability in afghanistan so you can have the afghan army then providing the kind of protection and security that the u.s. and the nato forces are now providing. i think that's what's going on. think it's preliminary. it's not just the u.s. many of our other allies from nato are doing the same thing and cooperating in this endea r endeavor. >> i don't trust it. i think of how many people we supposedly get along with and flip on us immediately and then i take a look at this and it seems pretty easy for them to say it one moment to us, sure, we'll break with al qaeda. we'll put down our weapons and we're with you guys and when we pull out of there, they are back to the same old business. what keeps that from happening? >> that's a real possibility. the other option is for u.s.

forces to stay longer in larger numbers. the president will make a decision tomorrow or the next day in will he'll introduce his plan in going forward. i would anticipate that he's going to recommend that we reduce the number of troops that we've increased for the surge, that we do so in the next coming year and that he will undertake this on a modest basis to begin with because you have a lot of fighting going on now and military commanders will advise the more you reduce the numbers, the higher the risk to our troops and to the failure of the mission goes. i think he'll be fairly modest in the beginning and then try to intensify it as we go through next year. that may not satisfy liberals on the left or conservatives on the right but i think that's the kind of proposal he's likely to proposal. >> specifically addressing that, the troop withdrawal and where our troops go. the secretary was asked by candy crowley on "state of the union" this weekend, where we should

be. this was his response. listen and give me your thoughts. >> if the united states is directly threatened, i'll be the first in line to say we should use military force and that we should do so with all of the power that we have available to us. it's wars of choice that i've become more cautious about. and being very careful about electing to send military troops or send troops in harm's way wherever they may be if it's a matter of choice as opposed to a direct threat to the united states. >> of course the elite felt that afghanistan was a direct threat to our national security. we'll wait to see what the president says on that. the democrats will push the president to give up on the funding for any kind of military boots on the ground in libya. using the criteria that secretary gates just put out there and the situation in libya, is that a place where you think we should be?

>> i think bob gates and i have the same view about the use of our troops. i believe in the proposition that we should be a reluctant warrior and reluctant to put our troops in harm's way unless there's a compelling national security issue to do so. the fact that british and french were so far in front of going into libya to take on gadhafi that secretary gates and president of the united states felt that we had an obligation to these two countries in the forefront of supporting us in iraq and afghanistan but i think for the most part we've got to be very, very discrete in terms of our selection of future wars and putting our troops in harm's way. that's the message that bob gates is giving and one i support. >> what about iraq? if they want us to stay long e