under many circumstances. people going down to the beach and a me going the other way. wide-open freeway on the 101 here as well. it's looking southern california surviving carmageddon. >> i don't think we can call it that, since nothing's happened. it's an interesting story and good nothing's happened. i'm don lemon at cnn headquarters. see you again in one hour. "the situation room" begins right now. rupert murdoch, deep into a scandal in britain and now here in the united states. the fbi now investigating alleged phone hacking as murdoch prepares to face angry members of parliament. plus, most americans have never heard of him, but he can instill fear in republican lawmakers who even think about raising taxes. i'll talk to grover norquist about america's debt and his own clout. and what jurors were thinking when they cleared casey anthony of murder. one member of the panel now breaking her silence about the

verdict that is letting anthony go free this weekend. i want to welcome our viewers in the united states and around the world. i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." one of the world's biggest media empires in crisis now. rupert murdoch publicly apologizing for serious wrongdoing and is now the front tabloid, the news of the world. the new ad in british newspapers coming days before he and his son are scheduled to face members of parliament. our correspondent brian todd and allan chernoff are standing by. first to london and our senior correspondent don rivers is standing by. are people in london, dan, still as shocked as they were over these past few days? >> reporter: i think so, yeah. i mean, this has been a seismic week in british politics. a week that will be written about for decades to come, i think.

just having all of the main political parties that are normally squabbling at each other's throats suddenly united, but they're united because of their contempt and outrage at what rupert murdoch's papers are alleged to have done, whereas they spent the last 20 years assiduously trying to get as close as possible to murdoch and court favor with his newspapers. it is a sort of tectonic shift, if i can put it that way, in the way politics and the medimmedia media operate and it will be studied for decades to come. >> this coming week what do we expect to happen? give us a few things to look forward to? >> reporter: well, the sort of box office daydiary is tuesday, wolf, when rebekah brooks and rupert murdoch and his son appear before a powerful committee that want to grill him

on exactly what's going on on in his paper. did he know about some of the illegal practices going on and if he didn't know, why didn't he know? why didn't he have a grap on his organization and why was it allowed to go so out of control? it will be a fascinating testimony, and it will certainly gone on the biggest audience ever from these committees here. >> we'll watch it every step of the way. dan rivers, thanks very much. and now spreading to murdoch's u.s. empire. telling cnn the fbi launched an investigation. cnn's brian todd is working this part of the story for us. brian what do we know? >> reporter: rupert murdoch in the u.s. pressure is growing more intense. we've spoken to several people on capitol hill and more members of congress are agitating for rupert murdoch to answer to them as well. murdoch and his news organization face the prospect of much more scrutiny ahead. >> reporter: a law enforcement

source in the u.s. tells cnn looking into rupert murdoch's news corporation is now a high prit pry or they. so high the fbi has already launched and investigation. the source says the probe is focusing on allegations that murdoch's employees or associates may have hacked into phone conversations and voicemail of september 11th victims and their families. anyone acting on behalf of news corporation is being looked at, the source says, from the top down to janitors. frank lautenberg believes news corporation violated federal law bribes foreign countries for information. would you want to hold hearings for mr. murdoch or his executive? >> certainly that would be a serious consideration. i'm waiting now for a return from the justice department. >> reporter: in canvassing capitol hill, we've learned of growing sentiment for congress to delve into the activities of rupert murdoch and his journalists. most of those calls are from democrats. murdoch is a big banger of republicans. if more momentum build into

probes in the united states or even congressional hearings, there are cautionary tales for lawmakers. reports that the tabloids sometimes turn the tables on those who investigate them. most of those accounts date well to well before this scandal blew up in the media in recent weeks. the watchdog group tells us when british parliamentarians looks into the press a couple years ago he heard of allegations she were discouraged from repeatedly inviting rebekah brooks, one of the top execs, to testify. >> the allegation was, they were told, members of that select committee were told, do not invite her again. do not press this, do not push it, because if you do, you'll regret it, and that was made very clear to them. >> reporter: contacted by cnn, no comment on that allegation. are you concerned they might hit back at you and dig into your personal life or whatever? >> i'm not worried about my personal life nor am i worried about my next term. i've been here 27 years, and

when you grow up in a poverty area and poverty stricken area, you don't scare that easily. >> reporter: a news man would not comment when asked about congressional hearings or the fbi investigation, but in one of his first interviews on this scandal murdoch chose to speak to the "wall street journal" defending his company's handling of this crisis an vowed to establish an independent committee that will "investigate every charge of improper contact" wolf? >> rupert murdoch has been building his empire over six decades. looking at this very long and successful career. allan, at least until now. >> reporter: absolutely, wolf. rupert murdoch has gone from power broker to pariah in the matter of a week. it's simply unbelievable for a man who is considered one of the great, brilliant businessmen, and he's achieved so much success by driving his editors

to dig up salacious stories. >> hi, mr. murdoch. >> reporter: rupert murdoch's great love has always been the newspaper. he demand dramatic stories telling reporters we will never be boring and frequently checks in with his top editors. one of whom used to be lou. >> passionate about his newspapers and along with that passion comes an involvement in the day-to-day operations of his papers. particularly his biggest ones. >> reporter: murdoch's ambitions began in his native australia inheriting his father's newspaper business. he started the "australian" a nationwide paper and used them to support politician hess favored. overseas murdoch's first purchase was a british tabloid "news of the world" followed by "the sun" both of which he pushed to a new level of sensationalism. topless girls on page 3 of the

"sun" was a ruport innovation. >> reporter: he was in a competitive market known at fleet street. martin dunn says he was as tough as his headlines. >> he was the man who tamed the print unions so newspapers became incredibly profitable. >> reporter: checkbook journalism with stories was a regular practice that paid dividends with high are newspaper sales. some retractors refer to murdoch as the dirty digger. >> he ran close what might be considered journalistic ethics. i'm not saying he broke the law. i'm not saying he did anything illegal, bus but i will say that he's aggressive in getting stories. >> reporter: he also used his papers as power base, with his editorial support, margaret thatcher, john major, tony blair and david cameron all rose to prime minister. >> he, more than anybody i've ever seen in my lifetime in the media understood how you could use the power of the media to shape the political views in the country, and in doing so to

effect elections. >> reporter: and to assist his business ambition. murdoch in the u.s. >> now we are moving very fast at news corporation to have a worldwide platform. >> reporter: newspapers, internet, television, film, all together have expanded his political influence. his decades of brilliant business and political success make this week's collapse all the more shocking. murdoch has achieved the impossible, said one observer. britain's normally divisive political parties are now all united against him. >> i think it's terribly devastating. he doesn't understand the word "defeat." >> reporter: indeed, murdoch is used to winning. this is san incredible setback for a man who only last week, wolf, we would have called the most powerful media baron on the planet. >> good report. thanks. excellent perspective. a surging campaign. now and unwelcome controversy for republican presidential candidate michele bachmann.

questions swirling about her husband accused of offering a controversial therapy designed to make gay people straight. and many republican lawmakers live in fear of breaking this hard and fast rule. no new taxes. stand by for my interview with reverend norquist. and a trail of bodies and blood. an in-depth look at whitey bulger's life of crime. stay with us. you're in "the situation room." woman: saving for our child's college fund was getting expensive. man: yes it was. so to save some money, we taught our 5 year old how to dunk. woman: scholarship! woman: honey go get him. anncr: there's an easier way to save. get online. go to geico.com. get a quote. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance.

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a growing controversial for michele bachmann. centering on her husband on a christian counseling center they own together where critics say controversial therapy is used to "cure" homosexuality. >> reporter: michele bachmann and her husband run a christian counseling service that appears gays and lesbians can change their sexual orientation for a religious-based theory. one of the beliefs on homosexuali homosexuality. >> hi, everybody. >> reporter: in her campaign for president, michele bachmann touts her background as a small business owner. >> as mom of five, a foster parent and a former tax lawyer and now a small business job creator -- >> reporter: that business is bachmann and associates. a christian counseling service oits minneapolis run by her husband marcus.

they're both pictured on the clinical website. in recent years the clinic faced accusations encouraging gay and lesbian patients to change they are orientation, a practice frowned upon by mental health xprts. back in 2004, an sdru-of-drew ramirez turned to bachmann to talk about his homosexuality. at 17. he was skeptical. >> therapy they would help me change from being homosex wabl to straight. >> reporter: that's how he described it? >> yes. >> reporter: he basically said, if you do this -- what? you wouldn't be gay anymore? >> if i did this and worked this therapy program, that could perform a miracle and i could no longer be gay. >> reporter: ramirez was assigned a therapy program consisting of prayer and reading bible passages and led by an ex-lesbian minister. if none of that work, the

counselor had another idea. he suggested to you what? >> not acting out on my same-sex attractions and leading a life of celibacy. >> reporter: and alternative to being gay? >> right. >> reporter: after the second session ramirez told his mother he wanted to stop. >> and i could just hear his voice quiver and i just said you know, if -- if you're good with being gay, then i am, too. >> reporter: the american psychological association is sharply critical of the mental health community as reparative therapy seaing in a recent report there is insufficient evidence to support of use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation, but in a talk radio interview last year marcus bachmann compared gay teenagers to barbarian whose must be disciplined. >> what do you say when your teenager says she's gay? what do you say to christian parents who come up with this? >> well, i think you clearly say, what is the understanding

of god's word on homosexuality, and i think that this is no mystery that a child or pre-adolescent, particularly adolescent, will question and wonder, certainly -- there's that -- there's that curiosity, but, again, we -- we like -- you know, it is as if we have to understand barbarians need to be educated. they need to be disciplined and just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn't mean that we're supposed to go down that road. >> reporter: back in 2006, bachmann denied his practice engaged in reparative therapy telling a minneapolis newspaper that's a false statement and went on to say, if someone's interested in talking to us about their homosexuality we're open top that. if someone comes in a homosexual and want to stay homosexual, i don't have a problem with that.

>> reporter: this week a gay rights group, truth wins out, released its own hidden camera video reported by one of its activists who posed as a patient at bachmann and associates. [ inaudible ] >> reporter: in the full five sessions of footage captured by truth wins out, while the counselor at times suggests homosexuality can be treated at the clining, he also concedes he's not an expert on the subject. michele bachmann has a long history of controversial views on homosexuality. she recently signed a pledge to defend marriage that compared same-sex couples to polygamists. that's a comparison bachmann made as a state law makener 2004 when she called for an amendment to block gay marriages in other

states from being recognized in minnesota. >> we allow this to happen, group marriage, polygamy and things much worse may not be far behind. >> reporter: both bachmann's declined a request for interviews. her campaign released a statement to cnn that says -- the bachmanns are in no pes ethically, legally or morally to discuss treatment concerning clinical patients. we tried to ask bachmann whether her firm conducts this type of therapy? >> is that something that is conducted at that center? >> well, i'm running for the president of the united states and i'm here today to talk about job creation and also the fact that we do have a business that deals with job creation. we're very proud of the business we kraected. >> reporter: the latest poll shows bachmann has a serious shot at winning this. you might consider the bachmann christian counseling center a

political asset. >> thanks very much. michele bachmann's husband marcus is defending his business. in an interview just published in the "minneapolis tribune" the counselling is not on trying to convert homosexuals. the word barbarian in the piece might have been doctored. he says he was referring to children, not gays. let's talk a little more about the republican race for the white house. our chief political analyst gloria borger is here. she's doing well in almost all of these polls. in iowa -- even in new hampshire she's doing remarkably well. michele bachmann is getting some life of her own on the campaign trail. >> she. she's getting some traxz. obviously, she's a cultural conservative, fiscal conservative, wouldn't vote to raise the debt ceiling undery circumstance. she's good on the stump. people like her. i think her big problem, the big question is, whether rick

appearry geappear appear -- rick perry gets in, the governor from texas, because he would take some oxygen away from her. what's interesting, when michele bachmann came on the national scene a lot of people -- one republican described her to me as a sarah palin mini me. okay? and now there's not that sense anymore. in fact, lots of people are looking at michele bachmann and saying, actually, she's a very credible candidate, even when compared with sarah palin. and at a certain point, sarah palin has to decide whether she wants to run for the presidency or not, and republicans are getting very, very impatient, and at a certain point they're going to say you know what? we've got michele bachmann here. if rick perry gets in, we've got him in this field. they're both cultural conservatives. maybe sarah palin is too polarizing, and we don't need you in the field? >> some of michele bachmann supporters privately suggested

to me, they don't want to publicly criticize sarah palin but say michele bachmann is much more substantive on the policy issues than sarah palin is who basically served two years as governor of alaska. >> in an interesting way, she's much more willing to answer reporters' direct questions about lots of issues. lots of controversies, and she's gotten herself into some hot water here. her husband has been an issue, but also the question of pledges that she's signed, and she does answer you without saying, you know, it's just the bad press. it's just the bad press. sarah palin tends to deflect everything and blame it on the press, and michele bachmann seems to present a more optimistic view, which voters really like. >> how should the arguable front-runner, mitt romney, feel about this rise of michele bachmann? >> i think he should feel fine about it, actually, because if it's michele bachmann he's up

against, or if it's sarah palin or rick perry he's up against, he will present himself as the electable republican who would be more acceptable to the independent voters. you know, you can't win an election without those independent voters. so it will be easier for him in a sense, to make the case of electability, which is really his main selling point. >> the republicans want to beat barack obama. >> they do. more than anything. >> all right. thanks very much for that, gloria. many call him, i'm quoting now, a stone cold killer. just ahead, we're going inside notorious mobster james "whitey" bulger's life of crime. plus, a juror in the casey anthony trial breaking her silence about the verdict. nounc] hey, ladies, here's a little something [ chomp! ] you'll find irresistible, cinnamon toast crunch, with a delicious cinnamon and sugar taste that's amazing. crave those crazy squares. with a delicious cinnamon and sugar taste that's amazing. somewhere in america, a city comes to life.

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breaking silence despite the outpouring of threats received from those outraged over her acquittal. our national correspondent gary tuchman spoke with juror number three. >> tell me the original vote for the aggravated manslaughter was 6-6. >> correct. >> which side of the six were you on? >> the manslaughter. >> originally you thought that she was guilty of manslaughter, or could be guilty? >> could be, and i wanted to investigate it further to see if it fit based on the evidence that we were given. >> so what convinced you and the five others to switch your votes and vote for not guilty? >> i think everyone will tell you the same thing. it's just lack of hard evidence. like i said, the duct tape and the chloroform and things like that, if you took a good, hard look at it, you could kind of -- there was a lot of doubt surrounding all of those certain things. so there's not enough to make anything stick. >> you don't necessarily think she's innocent, but you feel you didn't have enough proof to find her guilty beyond a reasonable

doubt? >> right. i don't know either way. obviously, it's not proven she's innocent, but it certainly hasn't been proven that she's guilty. >> the defense in their opening statement said that casey anthony's father molested her repeatedly when she was young and that's the reason she kept the drowning of her child secret. was there evidence she could have been molested by her father? >> there was no evidence. none at all and they had no bearing on the verdict that was made. that was irrelevant. thrown out there but never substantiated. >> reporter: later in the trial it wasn't jp the judge said can you not bring this up in your defense because you didn't present evidence about it. >> i really wish he hadn't brought it up. it's a disturbing image. he pachbted a graphicened disgusting picture. if you're going to do that, least back it up. if you can't, don't but that picture in people's minds. nobody wants to see that. >> reporter: and regarding the drowning. the only evidence presented were pictures of caylee climbing in the wool with her grandmother

standing near a screened door, which -- a door which her sgrandmother testified she couldn't open. flimsy evidence, at best. rime wondering if you think there was possibility that she could have drowned? any evidence that convinced you of that? >> there's no evidence that convinced me of that, no. >> reporter: you don't think she drowned or was molested. what a casual viewer might say, how can you find her guilty of murder? >> nothing to do whey the defense presents. it's on the prosecution to prove -- they brought charges. they have to prove with they are evidence that those charges, they can validate the charges that the crime was committed. >> reporter: you didn't believe the central points the defense told you but didn't believe the prosecution had enough evidence to convict? >> good, strong circle evidence, but at the end of the day it was circle and there was not just one strong piece of evidence that said something definitively. every piece of evidence kind of said this, that, this way, that way. many different ways you could have gone with each piece of

evidence. >> gary tuchman tweaking with juror number three in the casey anthony trials who will be released from prison this weekend. now to a man by all accounts is a stone cold killer. talking about the notorious mobster james "whitey" bulger, captured last month after 16 years on the run. deborah feyerick is here with a preview of the cnn special report. true lay fascinating story. >> reporter: it really is. a former mob sdr describes him of psychopathic intelligence. demanded total loyalty but in the end betrayed everyone pe knew. italian mafia, his own gangsters even the community of south boston by doing the one thing that was not allowed in the criminal underworld. that is becoming a rat. take a look. bulger's life of crime started early. arrested in his teens he was robbing banks by age 20. his shocking blond hair earning him the name whitey.

a name he is said to despise. with his rugged good looks and reckless flamboyance, he envisioned himself boston the movie with jimmy cagney. instead, headed to alcatraz. a string of bank robberies landing him in ten years of federal prison at age 25. he did his time and upon release vowed he would never, ever go back. >> they had no hard proof. >> reporter: boston globe reporters ultimately uncovered the deal he cut to make sure of that. >> he got out of prison in 1965, and we started doing research in 198, and hadn't got so much as a parking ticket. >> reporter: whitey bulger, fresh from prison, went to work as a mob enforcer. but bulger wanted more, and federal investigators say he'd stop at nothing to get it. >> reporter: then he went on a killing rampage. like a month, he killed six guys

in 1972. >> he was ambitious in making his move. >> reporter: he was making his move with this man, steve phlegmy, a/k/a, the rifle man paper mong their alleged victim, phlegmy himself testified his own girlfriend, deborah davis. >> back in those days before dna was in use to identify victim, he would personally get involved in cutting off the fingers or hands of the victims and extracting their teeth. >> reporter: tom fuentes, now a cnn consultant ran the crime squad for fbi headquarters. give me three words that describe whitey bulger. >> stone cold killer. >> reporter: it is hard to imagine, wolf what might have happened had fbi agents not lured whitey bulger into the garage on a pretense that a locker had been broken into. fbi agents ultimately found some 30 weapons, including assault rifles, shotguns, silencers, revolvers, pistols, knives, all of those in his apartment.

even at age 81 it appeared whitey bulger still had that fight, maybe not willing to be taken easily. so the fact they did as well as they did attributed to the bureau that took such a beating after it was told he was an fbi informant. >> we'll watch on cnn, sunday night. thank you. sometimes here in washington the most influential people aren't necessarily well known outside of the nation's capital. stand by to meet the anti-tax crusader who makes a lot of republicans in congress nervous. a spark might come from -- a touch, a glance -- it can come along anywhere, anytime. and when it does, men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day, so you can be ready anytime the moment's right even if it's not every day. tell your doctor about your medical condition

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grover norquist. i'll speak with him in a few minutes. first, background on who grover norquist is. >> a fascinating man. got a start in politics early. at 12 hopped on a train, headed to boston to volunteer nor richard nixon and held on to his conservative values since. he believes in small government, lower taxes, limited government services. >> that's mitt romney. michele bachmann. >> reporter: in this black behinder our signed pledges from the gop presidential candidate, grover norquist, president and founder of americans for tax reform, has secured their signatures as well as those of most of the congressional republicans. all committing to not raise taxes. hundreds of names with the originals safely stored away. where are the pledges? everybody wants to know. where are the pledges? >> we keep the original pledges inside a vault that can't be burned, a safe vault, but keep multiple copies. we want to promise voters and

elected officials that their pledge will be there forever. >> reporter: in some ways this father of two young toddlers is a stud any contrast, although politically conservative through and through, he loves janis joplin, has figures from the adult animation series "south park" on his book shelves and dabbles in improv comedy. >> when you play miniature golf, do they know? >> reporter: a powerful gop leaders, act on sensitive budget issues unless he signed off. every wednesday norquist convene as meeting here, a prominent republicans, political activists and gop operatives to plan strategies. if someone think answer breaking the pledge he likes to remind them of president george h.w. bush. >> read my lips. no new taxes. >> a lot of people were angry he broke his promise.

>> reporter: in the ongoing debt ceiling negotiations one point of debate is whether toaise taxes in tandem with government cuts. norquist is quick to remind republican lawmakers of their promises. here is a wall of republicans who went astray. >> people who voted for tax increases. down below, points which were defeated in the next election. >> reporter: his position, power and ego sparked outrage by some on the other side of the political aisle. michael etlinger with the center for american progress says it makes it harder for congressional leaders to legislate. >> grover norquist is a big problem, but i think the people whose feet he's holding to the fire are gerting tired of it. you know, we're getting to the point where we need serious people to sit down and make serious decisions, and drawing really hard lines in the sand the way grover does is hurting the country. and i think people who signed that pledge are starting to recognize that, and realize that that kind of hard line just is

not in the best interests of the country. >> reporter: but norquist is unfazed. it all comes down to the one line pledge that hangs in the americans for tax reform office. now, the group's strength is in the grassroots operations, being able to run ads, make phone calms to elect or a defeated candidate making norquist a very powerful man behind the scenes even though he has never been elected to office. >> a powerful guy here in washington. thanks, lisa. now that you know more about him, stand by for my interview with grover norquist. i'll ask him about the role in the debt limit drama playing out in washington and whether he's willing to accept any compromise on taxes. [ cat ] inside and out. and i'm not the only one who thinks so...right doc? [ female announcer ] vets agree, a healthy check up starts inside. our breakthrough iams premium protection formula is developed with vets... ...with cutting edge ingredients for the lifelong health of your pet. [ cat ] what a surprise... straight as again! [ female announcer ] iams premium protection.

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now my interview with someone that people here in washington believe is one of the most powerful men in the nation's capital. and grover norquist, the president of americans for tax

reform, we spoke about the negotiations ynlder way right now to see if they could reach a deal over raising the nation's debt limit. in principle, do you agree that if they don't raise the debt ceiling august 2nd it would be a disaster for america? >> if obama chooses not to cut spending and we end up with a default, that would be very bad. >> that would be the value of the dollar presumably would go down, interest rates would go up. inflation could occur. that would be a huge hidden tax on almost every american. >> every problem we have is because obama's ramped up spending so dramatically in the last two years that it's busting the bank. we need to fix that overspending problem. >> they doubled the debt during the bush administration pup knee? >> right. we went from spending $2.9 trillion before obama came into power to $3.8 trillion. >> $5 trillion when bush took office to $10 trillion when he

left. >> now $15 trillion after two years. look, the ramping up of massive spending increases over two years is unbelievable. >> all right. so are there any tax refors that you could support as part of this deal? for example, i'll throw in a few examples of what a lot of people consider to be, you know, crazy situations. john paulson, the hedge fund manager, made last year $4.9 billion -- billion way b. not million. $4.9 billion and a big chunk of that income was taxed at 15% not the maximum 35%, because it was seen as some sort of capital gains. is that fair? >> well, certainly the democrats have been arguing to raise the capital gains tax on all americans. obama says he wants to do that. that would slow down economic growth. it's not necessarily helpful to the economy. every time we've cut the capital gains tax, the economy has grown. whenever we've raised it, it's been damaged. one of those taxes that clearly

damages jobs. >> you and me, everybody else in the highest income bracket? >> capital gain, taxed as capital gain, if it's regular -- >> would you change the law so that would be regular income, insteading allowing this tax loophole now that defines it as a capital gain? >> if you have to change the law to get more money, that's a tax increase, and americans for tax reform supports all efforts of tax reform, getting rid of deductions or credits or something misclassified as long as you at the same time reap deuce rates so it's not a hidden -- >> you'd be open to changing that law so he would pay a higher income tax? >> if overall tax burden was not increased. as long as rates come down. i'm nor tax reform, not tax increases. >> what about general electric, made last year $14 billion worldwide. $5 billion in the united states and paid zero in federal income tax. is that fair? >> several thing. one, if there's a credit or deduction that they're getting, and i understand they get a lot of obama's special tax credits

he put in for alternative make-believe energy. let's get rid of those and reduce rates for those people who are paying taxes other places, but, again, when businesses pay taxes, you and i pay thm them. businesses don't pay taxes. grocery stores do not pay taxes, nor does general electric. that would be eliminated. >> lower rates. let's bring rates down other places. >> i was saying with exxon/mobil they pay a lot in the nigeria and other countries around the world but no income tax in the united states, but they can deduct that income tax overseas and not have to pay it here. you're open to changing that one? >> we ought to go to a territorial system, what the rest of the world operates on. we tax things that happen in the united states and not that happen oversea. similarly, when people make money in the united states, we tax it and france doesn't. that's a territorial tax system. it's clearly where we're going

to, but we ought to move there as quickly as possible. >> you're the president of americans for tax reform, very influential group here in washington. i want to read what former president bill clinton said in aspen, colorado on july 2nd. did you see this? >> i think so. >> he said you're laughing, but he, referring to you, was quoted in the paper as saying he gave republican senators permission on getting rid of ethanol subsidies. i thought, my god, what has this country come to when one person has to give you permission to do what's best for the country? it was chilling. >> okay. typical bill clinton, got everything completely wrong. i wondered where one of those quotes came from. what that was, there was a bill to get rid of the tax credit for ethanol -- >> which you support? >> we support getting rid of that. >> increase in taxes? >> it would. but another bill wrapped around it by demint which would have, one, eliminated the real problem and, two, how to tax cut larger

than the other, and we sent the letter to the hill saying, if you want to make sure you haven't raised taxes, those two bills together do exactly that. >> so basically he's right when he says you gave them permission to vote to eliminate the subsidies? >> no. just made it clear that the two bills together didn't violate the pledge. they chose, when they ran for office, to commit and write into their constituents, not to me. to their constituents is when bill clinton gets it wrong. nobody promises me anything. they promise when they get eleshgted to the people in their state and their congressional district, not going to raise nor taxes. >> and the americans for -- >> no. to it american people, it's the american for tax reform pledge, the same wording in all 50 states so people know what it is subpoena they mitt to the their voters they won't raise taxes. there was a confusion, because coburn was trying to confuse people, whether this was a tax increase. no, it's not. it's not a tax increase. so they could be comfortable that they weren't getting tricked by senator coburn into a

tax cut. >> you like it when people say you're one of the most powerful men in america? >> it's a little silly. the american taxpayers are a powerful force. they don't want their taxes raised. obama and the democrats have a fight with the american people, not with me. >> grover norquist, thanks for coming in. a radical effort in california to form a 51st state. just ahead, you'll meet the man behind a controversial secession drive. and a female marine is hoping justin timberlake will take his own advice and take her to an upcoming ball. the story, that's coming up. we're the wassman family from skagway, alaska. livin' so far out and not havin' a bank within 90 miles... i was runnin' into dead ends. happened to come across quicken loans online. [ chris ] walked over to the computer... i was able to see all the paperwork. while i was on the phone, i was able to go through the checklist. [ kathy ] they were quick and efficient. quicken loans is definitely engineered to amaze. they were just really there for us.

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the united states has two dakotas, two carolinas, and two virginias. what if there were two californias? cnn's thelma gutierrez has details of a secession drive that would split the golden state in two. you really have to try hard. you really have to be an idiot to screw up the state of california. >> we have hit a nerve with citizens that are just fed up with business as usual in the state. >> you want to secede the state of california? i sure hope you don't want to be governor. >> reporter: it's this kind of citizen outrage in riverside, california, that's fueling one of the most radical political ideas to recently surface in the golden state. >> i'm talking about a secession plan from the state of california. >> reporter: that's right, a 51st state called the state of

southern california. county supervisor jeff stone says secession may be the only way to get riverside county and 12 other largely politically conservative counties back on track. >> what the state has done is that they've been balancing their budgets on the backs of our local coffers, stealing our sales tax, our property tax. >> reporter: stone says the state has turned its back on his constituents who have been hit hard by a tough economy. >> the bottom line for me and my constituents is jobs. we are sending jobs out of the state of california by the trainload. we have some areas this county that have 25% unemployment. the average in riverside county is about 15%. foreclosures, we're the foreclosure capital of the world. >> reporter: if the state won't work with local government, stone says he'll rally the troops to part ways. >> assassinsanity. this is major surgery where maybe we need a band-aid. >> reporter: political science professor robert melsh says secession won't fix a thing and will cost a fortune to take to

the voters. >> it takes millions of dollars to get the signatures necessary to put up an initiative and more millions to sell it. where is that money coming from? he hasn't addressed the cost, the establishment of a new government, where are we going to put the capitol, disneyland? >> reporter: even when you came up with this idea of secession, you had to have known that it was a radical one for which you would be criticized. >> yes, right. listen, i knew i'd be criticized, i've learned in my tenure of being a public official for 19 years that sometimes you have to do some outrageous things to get people's attention. now listen, i'm not discounting the fact secession is a possibility. >> reporter: judging by this pile of emails jeff stone showed me overwhelmingly in support of his idea, he may have hit a nerve with disenchanted californians. thelma gutierrez, cnn, riverside, california. so will he or won't he? just ahead, the invitation one

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justin timberlake certainly gets lots of invitations, but not quite like this. here's jeanne moos. >> reporter: this female marine is asking justin timberlake out on a date -- >> i'm going to call out -- >> reporter: hoping he'll take his own advice. >> do it for your country. >> reporter: that's what timberlake told his co-star, mila kunis, after a male marine stationed in afghanistan tilted his shades and asked mila out via youtube. >> hey, mila, sergeant moore, but you can call me scott. >> what? >> i just want to take a moment out of my day to invite you to the marine corps ball on november 18 in greenville, north carolina, with yours truly. so take a second, think about it. get back to you. >> reporter: now chances are the last time mila kunis was asked out on a semi blind date was when cnn's own wolf blitzer invited her to the white house correspondents dinner -- >> this is my date, wolf! >> reporter: and though wolf is more famous than sergeant scott moore, the sergeant had justin timberlake on his side during a

fox news interview. >> this needs to go down. this needs to happen. >> okay. >> do it for your country -- >> i'll do it for you. >> reporter: yeah, you do it for your country, justin timberlake. now marine wants you. >> justin, you want to call out my girl, mila? well, i'm going to call you out and ask you to come to the marine corps ball with me on november 12, in washington, d.c. copy rop-- corporal kelsey disas is the only female marine at the martial arts center for excellence at quantico. she's an instructor with a black belt who sometimes does cage fights. kelsey is a fan of timberlake's. she got the idea to invites him to the marine corps ball after seeing him so enthusiastically tell mila kunis to go. her friends set up a facebook page called let's get justin timberlake two the marine corps ball with kelsey complete with an array of photos so impressive -- well, how could timberlake tell her to go jump in