debt. we cannot go forward with the debt structure that we have. we have to reform entitlements or it will gobble up our government and our family budget. so for kids like that, that my kids will watch, that teach them about -- >> i'm sorry. i have to wrap you. we're out of time. a pleasure to have both of you. that's all from us tonight. coming up "in the arena" starts now. >> good evening. welcome to the program. i'm gloria borger. as we move closer to national default, you can see the countdown clock on the screen team of a look. just over six days and three hours. americans are sending a message to their elected representatives. we are mad as hell.

for those of you too young to remember that is a a 1970s movie. >> i want you to go to the window, stick your head out and yell, i'm as mad as hell and i'm not going to take this anymore! >> now that sounds like how a lot of people feel these days. this time, instead of the late actor peter finch, it was president barack obama who will people to take action. >> i'm asking you all to make your voice heard. if you want a balanced approach to reducing the deficit, let your member of congress know. if you believe we can solve this problem through compromise, send that message. >> and so they did. today more than 100 congressional websites crashed or threatened to. phones rang off the hook and letters and e-mails poured in. once again, the same old posturing went on and on. we've all seen this movie before. in fact, we've been watching it

for weeks now. i'll have a lot more on this story in just a moment. but first, here's a look at the top stories i'll be telling but tonight. >> let's say it is august 3rd. democrats and republicans cannot cut a deal. the debt ceiling is falling down. so what's the first bill the united states government decides not to pay? then again, money can't buy happiness. a new study out says wealth and depression go together. the doctor asks, who are the real haves and have-notes. >> and norway. a desperate text message. as the killer stalked an island full of kids, a terrified parent kept in touch with her child. a heart stopping conversation. now for more on our top story, the giant showdown in washingtoner to debt ceiling.

republicans and democrats each waiting for the other guy to blink. i want to go first to cnn congressional correspondent kate who is on capitol hill with some breaking news. all eyes have been on speaker boehner's proposal today. there seem to be a hiccup tonight and he has to rewrite his plan. what's going on? >> it is all about the money, gloria. this has to do with the issue of savings. you'll remember one of the principals that speaker boehner said he would abide by, the cuts, the savings had to be greater than the am the debt ceiling would be increased. that's a problem this evening. because debt ceiling increase according to this bill would be about $900 billion. and the congressional budget office, they always come out with cost estimates for legislation. they just came out to say that his savings, the deficit reduction in this bill, fall short of what he targeted. only $850 billion in deficit reduction as opposed to the $1.2

trillion they were targeting. a big problem. they're now scrambling to rewrite the bill and it is unclear what will really happen. they were spending all day today trying to sell the bill to their members, gloria. not rewrite it'll. >> so what happens? we weren't sure he had the votes before to pass it in the house. now it looks even less likely, right? >> definitely seems like more problem, more headaches added to the speaker's plate. unclear. what we were told as this was happening, they were aiming for a vote tofmorrow. unclear. definitely, very easy to understand that it would be even a bigger problem selling this to house conservative who's were already complaining that this bill didn't go far enough. >> and clearly, kate, the speaker does not want to lose. so thank you very much. and stay on top of that story.

it is important. meanwhile tonight, we're getting some mixed messages out of the white house, too. just a short time ago on cnn, white house communications director dan pfeiffer told jessica yellin that president obama would entertain a short-term deal. that would give lawmakers an extra time to reach a deal. when i spoke to the white house budget director earlier today, he kind of dodged that question. take a listen. >> thank you so much for being with us. is there a possibility, jack, that do you a patch of say a week or two extension in the debt ceiling so that these bills can work their way and you can come up with a different kind of deal? is that possible? >> i don't want to look at the different hypotheticals. there is time for congress to get its work done. >> they say they can't. >> they can and they should. >> okay. let me talk to you about what would happen if they didn't get

a deal. today, white house communications director dan pfeiffer said this to cbs radio. i want to you listen to it if you can. i know you're outside and there is a bit of a demonstration going on outside about immigration. but try listen to this. >> we are seven days away from an unprecedented financial event in this country's history. one that could potentially put us toward a depression because the house republicans led by speaker bainler are unwilling to compromise one inch. >> do you think house republicans are leading the country toward a potential depression? >> i think that we are seeing a very uncompromising position. we're seeing a high way or the highway approach. the president has tried to compromise. he has done it in a series of negotiations. i want to point out we remain engaged after the majority leader walk away. after the speaker walked away. the speaker walk away a second time. so i think the president has

made clear, he is anxious to look for the reasonable compromise where we can agree. i think we need to see some movement on the other side. there's time for that movement. >> okay. what would movement, i know you don't lake hypotheticals. what would movement be? what would you consider movement? >> i think if you look at the bill that senator reid put in in the senate, he has outlined a path where it does give the speaker what he has asked for. dollar for dollar, cuts for increases in the debt limit. it is a path that is open and available. and it offers an opportunity to reach agreement. i think we can't be in a place -- >> it has no taxes. >> it has no taxes. and we've made clear that if we were talking about the long term deficit reduction bill to solve our problem for the next ten years, it would have to be a balanced package. what senator reid put forward was i think an attempt to reach a hand across.

to make a compromise. to accept the principle that the speaker said he needed. >> let me play you exactly something senator mitch mcconnell, the republican leader in the senate, said today. because he may be the man who finds the way out of this. listen to what he said. >> we're going to have to get back together and get a solution here. we knt cannot get a perfect solution from one of you controlling only the house of representatives. i'm prepared the accept something less than perfect because perfect is not achievable. >> that doesn't sound so different from what i just said a minute ago. >> that's what i was going to say. if it were up to you and senator mcconnell, and maybe john boehner, it sounds like you could cut a deal. you do have house republicans that you have to deal. with they're not going to vote for senator reid's plan.

>> if you look at the house, there are democrats as well as republicans in the house. it has been clear from the very beginning, if there were a big agreement, the would be a need f for democratic votes. that gets back to you have to compromise. you can't reject the principle the other side says are important. we think it would be terrible for the economy to have this be a nine, ten month long period of chaos we will can't have the kick the can down the road six or nine months. we can't accept a framework that puts us in a place, six or nine months from now, draconian cuts would be needed. >> you've spent weeks doing this to no avail and you have seven days left. is it inevitable that the u.s. credit rating would be downgraded under any circumstance because we could be back at this? or because the deficit reduction won't be large enough?

what is the chance? what percentage? >> i don't want to speculate on that. i read the same papers that come from the rating agencies that all of you read. what is clear is that they're making two points. one, they're making the point that dysfunctional government is a bad thing. the notion that we can't extend the debt limit is something they worry deeply about. they also are worried, as are we, that we need to be on path for real deficit reduction. the plan that gets us through these few days will not be the final answer on solving our long term deficit problems. it could point us in a direction. it could be a down payment. i think the more we show an ability to find agreement in a reasonable middle, the more we will calm all of those. not just the ratings agencies but the american people who are worried about our government being able to work. >> and i have to ask you this question. because in the event that you

don't reach a deal, and that you do reach a deadline, in which we can't pay our bills. how do you at omb and the treasury department, how do you plan for failure? how do you decide who gets their checks and who doesn't get checks? >> well, our plan is for the debt limit to be extended. for this not to come about. that's the only response. >> you're obviously planning. you're obviously doing contingency. >> we will be prepared to deal with whatever situation arises will our plan is for this to be resolved. >> so you're not going to tell me if the social security checks will go out and veterans benefits will go out. >> there is no way that anyone can give insurance that's we will make timely payments in a situation like that to social security recipients. to veterans, contractors. the president said that last night. there is no way to assure that all of those payments would be made, were we to fail, to reach an agreement on raising the debt

limit. the truth is we can borrow 40 cents on the dollar if we don't have the ability to borrow, we don't have the ability to pay. >> on that sad note know we're going to have to leave it. thanks so much for being with us. let's see if you can get this work out by august 2nd. >> good to be with you. >> as you just heard, the white house is backing the democrats' plan. the republican leadership under john boehner put out their own plan. as of tonight, they're rewriting it. and we don't know if it is going to pass tomorrow. if it come up on the floor tomorrow. joining me now, congressman who will vote against his own speaker's plan. thanks so much for being with us. what is going on? in the house? john boehner's plan? the congressional budget office says you know what? it is not going to save as much money as we thought, under $1 trillion. now he has to rewrite it. you weren't going to vote for it

in the first place. is it going to pass? >> we'll find out. that's one thing about the house. we have a vote. the senate hasn't had a vote. the president has ideas but nothing down on papers. we'll have a vote tomorrow. i don't know if it passes or not. what we need to see a long-time workable solution. >> that's not going anywhere. it passed the house. it won't pass -- >> harry reid has been afraid to bring it up for a voeflt that's what frustrates me as a freshman. these folks aren't taking any votes. and harry reid's might not pass. they need to have a full open debate in the senate about the budget and about the future of our country. >> you heard what jack lue was saying. it was essentially, you can't have everything you want. tax increases, congressman, are now off the table. what is it you need to raise the

debt ceiling? >> it's what america needs. none of these plans actually ever balance the budget. they don't plant on doing that. >> in six days we won't balance the budget. >> no, we are not. in six days or longer, the reports came out today. it is really not six days. it might be longer. we don't know. we asked the treasury department to provide numbers. >> jack lue said august 2. >> the treasury department has the number. i don't want to argue about that. the point being we need a long-term solution. it is not about just raising the debt ceiling. it is a long term solution. and when we're borrowing 42 cents out of every dollar we spend, it is a major, major problem. i'm glad washington is looking at the problem. a spending problem and hopefully we'll pass something. >> here's the question. you have six days left. you know how washington works. nothing will get done that's

big. will you be amenable to passing something shorter, say, for a weak work the weeks, a month, whatever, getting you through so you can come to a larger deal? would you vote for a short term increase? >> i think the house has done its work. it has cut cap that balance. i would consider something like that if harry reid would let senators be senators and have a debate on that. that's the problem. i go home and people say have you passed something? yeah. we've passed two budgets this year. >> it is not just you. it is the entire congress. say you've done your job. let's stipulate. that fine. what do you say to people who say, we cannot let this country go into default? it is embarrassing and worse than, that it is devastating for the american economy. and for your constituents. >> in the last year i've hosted the 64 town halls. they frankly didn't want the debt ceiling to be raised at all. but cut cap and balance with immediate spending cuts. cap in the future and a budget.

the senate hasn't even had a vote yet. that's frustrating. i think it is incumbent upon the senate to have a vote. >> are you worried about default? are you worried? >> i am worried the president might choose the default. that the president might choose not to pay social security. >> you're going to say i have nothing to do with this. if the country goes over the cliff, you'll say not my fall. >> the country shouldn't go over a cliff. the question is this. can we solve the problem? under the president's budget that he proposed, there are $10 trillion in new debt. all they're talking about is reducing it by about 10%. we still have $9 trillion in new debt. that doesn't solve the problem. does the budget ever balance? >> okay. if it happens, then it is not your fall. that's what you're going to say. >> the president said -- >> you're going to blame president obama. >> the president is the executive officer of this nation. when he said on national television, nine days ago that

he may not send out the social security checks. there seem to be plenty of evidence. we even had outside analysis today reported by three different groups that there is enough money to go another week. >> we have to see. i would ask the department of treasury to release the numbers so we know what they intend tad and what the case is for future of the nation. >> congressman thank you, for being with us. i appreciate it. coming up, what if we don't get a zmeel and the debt ceiling deadline passes. with so many bill to pay, the government would have to make some painful choices. we'll tell you who will feel the pain. [ male announcer ] there's more than one of these abandoned racetracks in america today. automotive performance is gone.

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quicken loans is definitely engineered to amaze. they were just really there for us. if the debt ceiling is not raised, the u.s. will have to make some tough choices. and lots of people will put in their two cents worth on what the priorities should be. is it military salaries? social security checks? what about those air traffic controllers? or guards in federal prisons? tom foreman is here to help us figure out the answers. tom, how do we make these choices? they're so tough.

>> here's the simple part of this. you can pay for any of this. you just can't pay for all of it. let's look at the nuts and bolts of this. this was last august, this is the current august. this is how much money we have going in. $172 billion. this is how much we're spending. $306 billion. it's $134 billion that we won't have. so congresswoman borger, look at our options. what do you want to pay for here? interest? social security? medicare? what do you want? >> i'm a member of congress nowism prefer you call me senator. >> we'll see how you do. >> we have to do the interest, of course. social security, medicare, medicaid. everything. >> all right. you've spent this much. $128 billion. here's where you are. here's the default line. what else do you want to pay for?

>> obviously we need the pay our military active duty. >> all the people in iraq and afghanistan. that's not so much. $3 billion. people all around the world. what else? >> we have to take care of unemployment insurance. >> although people struggling out there. you know they must be taken care of. that's $13 billion. what else? too snigs. >> well, we have to pay veterans benefits. we have to take care of our veterans. >> we're taking care of our veterans. that's $3 billion more. you can't forget your federal salaries here. all the people who make the government run. are you going to throw those in? >> of course. >> we put those in. what else do you want to pay for here? >> you've got it. people who get irs refunds. what about those people? >> 77% of the country gets irs refunds. we have to take care of those people. you're almost there? what else do you want? >> tuition assistance. education. >> all those young people are going to need jobs.

you're over here. and now, do you know what? i showed up at your door. i'm an advocate for the poor in this country. i'm telling you if you don't put in food and nutrition senses, you're in big trouble. which one are you going to take off? >> well, i think -- >> irs refunds. do you know what? it's not april right now. we'll take that off. that's gone. i'll give you food and nutrition services. you're over again. this is the problem. if you look at this, congresswoman, no matter what you do, if you knock out the defense vendors here, look at that. $32 billion. you know what? i would have to kill this and this and this and this and this to get defense spenders. guess a? the defense spenders, that's a tremendous number of jobs in this country. if you don't pay for those, congresswoman, that's a bunch of jobless people who have more struggles. this is the fundamental problem for everybody in congress right now. i'm telling you furcal don't do

a better job, you'll never be a senator. >> uk talking about the larger programs here. it is easy to talk about generalities. that's what people are talking these days. what about if you're the member of congress and you're going home and you have to tell your constituents exactly what this is going to mean for them and their pocket book and their piggy bank. how do you explain that. >> so congresswoman borger, you go home to your district and you meet the happy family. they're not as happy as they normally are. why? when you apply all those cuts that you have to look at. the thing to make the tough choices on. you'll find some tough thing. here's one of the first things. if we go to default, interest rates will rise. that's one of the predictions. and credit restrictions will be greater. if they're trying to buy a house or anything to do with interest, which is an awful lot of things, they'll see some different costs. they'll find the cars they're

buying, cars or stereos or ipads, those could very well be more expensive. all those companies are having to pay more interest. because they have to pay more interest, they have to have somebody else pay for it. so they'll put it into their product themselves won't have any choice. individually though. look at these constituents. what about mom? let's say that mom is a government employee. well, she very well could wind up being furloughed if you don't pay those people. or she could see her credit card rates rise. that will affect how she runs her house. what about dad? as he small businessman. he could wind up unemployed if he works for a small business or someone else who says i can't afford all of this. he could be losing money in his 401(k) because of all these wild thing happening with interest rates. a difficult time getting a loan and on and on it goes. the daughter is in the military. she could have a delay in her salry. private contractors could be laid off. the son is trying to go to school. he could find his student loans

very hard to obtain. and as you were talking about a moment ago, grandma could have social security delayed. this is the whole problem no, matter what you pay for. something else doesn't get paid for if the debt ceiling stays where it is. >> tom, thanks so much. that's great information. something we all need to know. that's why i would like to be a senator. i only have to run every six years as opposed to every two making those tough choices. thanks so much. coming up, norway is in mourning. as more information emerges about the man who took so many innocent lives. a chilling portrait of a killer and the country he scarred forever. gas and bloating. with three strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon. you had me at "probiotic." [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health. it's like hardwiring the market right into my desktop. launch my watchlist -- a popping stock catches my eye. pull up the price chart. see what the analysts say.

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in norway, thousands of mourners gathered with roses at oslo city hall for a vigil to mark the victims of the massacre. a picture emerged of the suspected attacker. anders breivik as a cold and

detached person. breivik's lawyers say his actions appear to be insane. that during the attacks, breivik used drugs to keep himself, strong, efficient and awake on. an interview, breivik's father who asked to remain anonymous repudiated his son in the strongest possible way. >> i'll never have more contact with him in my darkest moments. i think rather than killing all those people, he should have taken his own life. >> it is absolutely tragic. and cnn's senior correspondent n.ic robertson was on site at the farm today as police detonated what was left of his explosives. he joins me now from norway. welcome. nic, what do we know about the attacker today that we didn't know a couple of days ago?

>> reporter: well, i think we've got a sort of a deeper insight to him through his lawyer. this is the first time we've had a chance to talk to his lawyers. his lawyers met with him on three occasions. and he said for several hours. perhaps the thing that struck me most, talking to the lawyer today was when he described his own sort of assessmentor or watching him try to give an assessment. he said he never met anyone like this before. you could really see this articulate man struggling for words to describe this person who is now defending. and when he said he is insane, what he was meaning there, this is a man who couldn't be sane if he carried out the acts that he did. but he did say he was going to have to wait for this sort of clinical analysis. we've heard that breivik is tired now that he is in jail. that he didn't expect to get away with this. that he expected to be shot by

the police. he expected to be tortured when he was in custody but is also ready to pay the price. he said he knows that people will hate him for what he's done. but this is something that he believed he had to do. he is holding out against the police in two key areas right now, one of those is that he says there are two other terror cells that support him in norway, and others in the rest of the world. and he won't tell police about them. and he also won't tell police about amounts of fertilizer that could be used in bol making that the police are trying to track down. on the one hand, he wants to talk. on the other hand, he is playing this game of stringing the police out and keeping himself in the limelight. >> do the police believe him when he says that there are two other terror cells? that he was working with? or do they think he is just lying to them? >> reporter: they don't really know. i spoke today to the head of norway's intelligence here.

and she told me that she believed that this is breivik trying to stay in the limelight. this what she described part of his magic by stringing the police along. by creating the impression that there are other cells, other bombs perhaps out there. but at the same time, one of her senior analysts told me, the director of the sort of threat assessment told me, they just have to take what he is saying and check it thoroughly. on the one hand, they don't want to believe them to a degree. on the other hand, they say they have to check it out. the reality is, if there are other people out there, there are more explosives, this is really, really dangerous and they can't afford to take any chances. that's their real concern here. >> the police are coming under some citizen civriticism. breivik himself believed he wouldn't get away with it but he did manage to pull this off. the police did not stop him on an extended shooting spree.

>> reporter: yeah, there are two thing here that i think people are asking questions about. the immediate one, how could he continue the shooting spree for an hour and a half when television camera crews and others were able to rent helicopters in nearby oslo and fly to the scene, and the police helicopter wasn't available, apparently, because the crew wasn't there, apparently because they were on holiday. the police couldn't fight, take care of an incident ins on low and the other situation. the other question is how could he get away with this? how could he buy explosive fertilizer? have sophisticated weapons systems, buy chemicals and bring them into the country. the intelligence services say the reason he was able to do that was because did he everything by the law. he got a handgun almost a decade ago and took several years before he bought another weapon. that he got a smaller am of

something they won't say it is what, $15 from poland. he did everything legally and carefully, intentionally not to get caught. that seems to be the defense of the intelligence services. he wasn't breaking the law. >> yeah. and it is obviously something that he had been thinking about for an awfully long time. nic robertson in norway. thank you for being with us. still ahead, can you call it a debate when the two sides talk at each other and not to each other? i'll ask our political panel. with the president going on tv and the speaker of the house taking his turn, is anybody actually trying to get a real deal done?

there is break go news on the debt crisis. cnn has just learned that the vote on speaker of the house john boehner's proposal to raise the debt ceiling has been

postponed. this after the congressional budget office just announced his plan cuts less than he said it wolf joining me for both sides of the aisle, james carville and former republican congressman rick lazio. welcome, gentlemen. it looks like we've got some trouble here for the house speaker. tried to sell this to his troops. couldn't sell it. then the cbo comes out and says you're not saving us much money as you thought you were. let me go to you first, rick lazio. so, what does this mean for house republicans? >> it only means it is delayed. the vote will be delayed for a day. hopefully not longer than that while the congressional budget office rescores or reestimates whatever new offerings the house comes up. with they've promised to come up with least a trillion dollars in savings. as i understand it, cbo, the congressional budget office, came back with about $850

billion. so there are $150 billion plus or minus short. so they have to come up with a couple of additional pieces of savings. but they should still be on track to have a vote by thursday or friday at the latest. >> a day matters. let me put this to you. it now looks like the democratic plan, harry reid's plan cuts an awful lot more than the republican plan. john boehner's plan, and it doesn't include tax increases. how did the republicans, why didn't they just declare victory and go home? >> there is nobody for the democrats to surrender to. i thought that the speaker's plan was $2 trillion. $2.1 trillion. i thought his pledge was that he would cut as much as they were raising the debt limit. i didn't know it was a trillion.

don't hold me to it. i thought it was supposed to be $2.1 trillion. in cuts. >> 2 trillion, as i understood it. >> let's not use that word. we have to have a moratorium on that. >> two phases. one supposedly about $1 trillion, $1.2 trillion. the other was a panel that harry reid has also propose that had would safe another $1.8 trillion so a total of $3 trillion was the overall goal. >> i want to play you something. i spoke with senator hank conrad early today. democrat, chairman of the house budget committee, member of the gang of six, on the deficit commission. he wants a grand deal. and the question is, of course, whether you can possibly get that or anywhere near that in the next seven days. it looks very unlikelyism want you to liberty to what he said. and james, why don't you come out of it? >> we won't get a grand deal in seven days.

we could get an agreement on a process going forward to secure a grand deal. that's what is really required. i would hope that at the end of the day here, we would adopt something that would get us through the immediate short term crunch. get it past the debt extension crisis. >> are you talking to the white house about this possibility? >> certainly i am. look. the house is going to have to decide if they're going to try to do this on the republican side of the aisle or are they going to recognize the only way they're going to get a plan that can carry in the senate and be a balanced plan is that they do it with democratic votes in the house and republican votes. this idea that they're just going to do it all by themselves on the republican side of the ledger means that they are locked into a formula that cannot possibly solve the problem. >> so james, is he right?

>> yeah. in a word. but i think what's happening here, it strikes me as, the speaker who i think is a decent guy. they're trying to get something through the house. then senator reid will try to get something through the senate. then they can get something to like conference committee. then make they can strike something there. they have to get two thing will sort of pass that they can work from here. and you know, the public is turning to this quickly. and i think the folks are feeling a lot of the heat. and there is nothing that can motivate a group of politicians, apparently based on our reporting and what i've seen today. a lot of it is coming in will. >> you know, let me ask you that. because i just spoke with a freshman member of congress who said, we republicans, we voted for it in the house. we've done our job and was blaming barack obama. will that last if the nation actually defaults and people

don't get their social security checks? >> listen, i don't see that happening. i think that you're going to see that probably what james has laid out. the senate will move, and maybe in fact, harry reid and boehner will come up with a single offering on both sides, which would be better yet. republicans would be better off -- >> how would they do that? how would harry reid and boehner come up with a single offering? >> right now they're not so far apart. both sides agree that they can't get a bill passed with taxes. so that's off the table. only the president doesn't understand that. the second thing is they both have to understand they to get more savings than the amount of the hike in the federal debt limit. so there are the parameters of some agreement out there. they're not so far apart that they can't come together. i'm more hopeful with what hard

harry reid has said. i think the documents president made during his national address didn't really help people to come together and get an agreement. i'm hoping behind the scenes you'll see more constructive dialogue and you will get a good outcome. a good outcome is not a trillion or $2 trillion in savings. a good outcome is to address this in a long term manner. republicans to have real eye, they can't get the whole thing done in six days. they're going to have to live with something less than what they really want and live to fight another day to get more savings. >> okay, james. go ahead. >> apparently senator conrad is someone else who doesn't think it can be done without something on the revenue side. be that as it may, politically, this is not bad for the democrats. it is terrible for republicans. they're destroying their brand over there and i think they know that. i think that the speaker and senator reid and people understand that this has to get resolved. if they get it to some point, i

think they can push enough to avoid the default. and then come back and maybe deal with it another day. continuing president, a lot of people say we need to get this resolved prior to the election year, 2012. that is a noble goal but i'm kind of skeptical. >> you don't think this is bad for barack obama? >> it might be a little bit but it is just awful for the republican brand. look at our poll. just yesterday. everyone that come in, it gets worse and worse. it strikes me the position is deteriorating. we had it at 50/30. every poll that come in, the public overwhelmingly blames the republicans and with good reason. the democrats are trying to surrender and the republicans won't take it. >> those aren't the poll number i've been seeing. >> which have you seen? >> rick lazio, people do blame so far in the poll we've taken at cnn, barack obama is not doing fabulously.

>> his number continue to sink down in term of the stewardship of the economy. the people that place blame for where we are right now. listen, neither side looks great. i don't think that we accomplish anything by saying one side is doing three appoints better than the other side themselves both don't look very good in all this. the bottom line is the country is facing a major fiscal crisis. it is likely to be on a path of austerity for a number of years. we'll have to reestablish our expectations and learn to save, work, and the government will have to live within its mean in a wait hasn't done over the last several years under both republican and democratic presidents. >> it is like 20, 30, 40 points in some polls. there are people who think it really downer productive to have austerity in the middle of these economic time. there are a group of people who say this is exactly the wrong thing. the president is not one of them so there is a consensus that

we'll cut all of this in the middle of these economic times. >> and some people say that greece and portugal and spain should have been having this debate two or three years ago. the debate we're having right now. so a lot of people thinking it is pay me now or pay me later will. >> we're worried about this country now and we're kind of on the brink of something here on august 2. we will continue this debate. james carville, rick lazio, thanks so much for being with us. great discussion as always. coming up, that great political analyst. was she a senior political analyst may west once said, i've been rich. i've been poor. believe me, rich is better. a new study says when it come to a nation's happiest, maybe richer isn't better. shakes. they have slowly digestible carbs to help minimize blood sugar spikes, which can help lower a1c. [ male announcer ] glucerna. helping people with diabetes find balance.

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organization shows that people in rich countries like the u.s. are more prone to depression than those in poorer countries like india or mexico. in face to face interviews with nearly 90,000 people around the world, researchers found that on average, 15% of those in wealthier nations have suffered depression at some point in their lives. that's versus just 11% in lower income countries. here with more on the study is psychiatrist dr. game salts. can you tell me why people in wealthier nations seem more prone to depression? >> we can only hypothesize. the study didn't look for the reasons. why i think a few thing we could conjecture, in poorer nations, first of all, it is more typical to turn to family. if you think about it, in poorer nations, families often live together in close circle them do a lot of the childcare. they do a lot of the marital advice. and we know that actually, close family and social supports are

protective against depression. additionally in poorer nations, often people are more turning to religion, spirituality. that also is viewed as protective against depression. and on the contrary side, in terms of more affluent nations, there are greater expectations. in this country, there is a great disparity of wealth. yes, we are over all a wealthy country but we look at some people being very wealthy. others are not doing so well. they have the same expectation of doing well. so there is a lot of stress in the disappointment, quite frankly, that people suffer. >> could it also be that we just talk about depression more in this country? that it is something that is not frowned upon? it is considered something that is treatable. it is considered pretty routine, actually. >> i would say it is a flaw in the study, in a sense of that they asked people about their depressive symptoms. well, first of all they asked

rhe retrospectively. they asked whether you had these symptoms. that's a problem because people might not remember the same or they, in some nations where they're not as educated about mental health issues and as you pointed out, where it more stigmatized, they might not know if they were depressed or work the they might not want to tell someone from a foreign country that they felt these symptoms. so pass problem. >> what about different age groups, also. are older people more likely to be depressed? younger people more likely to be depressed? >> again, that could vary from country to country. and it depends on, i think, frankly how older people are treated and how younger people are treated. when countries where to be older is to be revered, to be treated as wise, as an important person in the community, that is less stressful than for instance, in this countriering with all struggle with the it's better to

be younger. such a youth-based culture. people who are older often feel put out to pasture. and talt, today at least, they're not assured that they will be taken care of in any sort of way. that's very stressful. >> is there any comparison? kind of over, you know, five years, ten years, whatever? because the economy is bad everywhere in the world. and why isn't that reflected in every country? the economy is bad here but it's bad in greece. one could say it's worse in greece, right? >> as much as the economy and stress of that is affecting people, and certainly it does, but depression is a much more complicated illness than just that. than just one stressor. we know that being stressors in trauma can precipitate a depression in somebody who is already biologically predisposed to that. but we know that there are genetics involved. in some ways it is a biological illness. that is not the full picture.

so we see rates of depression don't necessarily change hugely dpeding on the economy. because as i said, there are other factors involved that really stay the same. i think what we should think about about the study, when you look at the rates thark quite substantial when you talk about a poor country or a rich country. that says to me that we really need to do more to educate people about the treatment that's are available when they have the symptoms and when they really do need to seek treatment. depression has a real mortality rate attached to it. >> and learn to recognize the symptoms. thank you so much, game saltz. thanks for being with us. up next, what parents fear most. a child in terrible danger and there is absolutely nothing you can. do for one mother and daughter in norway, the cell phone was their life line, literally. ♪

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turning back to the tragic events in norway. the bbc today published an extraordinary exchange of text messages between a mother and daughter. julie, a 16-year-old girl, pinned down by the shooting on the island of utoya frantically texted her mother marian. at 5:42 in the this afternoon, as reports of the shootings first emerge in the norwegian press, here is julie's first text. julie's mother quickly responds. moments later, the mother re