if things are going badly, as a president, you own it. the country wants it fixed. they want it better. they are bored or frustrated. he's going to suffer. >> we have to bail out. i wish we had more time to talk. thanks for joining us here today. we'll have to have you both back. thanks for joining us. we'll have a lot more coming up tomorrow night. no doubt. that's good night for now. piers morgan tonight starts right now. tonight, deal or no deal. >> you need to start doing things that can pass both houses. >> no democrat will vote for a band aid approach. >> the american people have said enough. >> it's time for somebody in this town to say yes. >> nothing gets washington's attention like a deadline. what are they waiting for? >> americans deserve an honest approach.

no more tricks. no more accounting gimmicks. no more broken promises. >> tonight, the white house, the right, the left and the clock. countdown to crisis. >> we are four days away from one of the worst financial catastrophes that could face this country. >> this is "piers morgan tonight." good evening. chaos on capitol hill tonight. john boehner's debt plan is stalled in the house without support from his caucus. this country is moving closer and closer to an almost unthinkable national default. we are going to ask some of the smartest people in washington to explain what is going on tonight. john king, jessica yellin. first, i want to go straight to the white house. president obama is beating the job of compromise. is it too late for that? i want to bring in dan pfeiffer.

thanks for joining me. normally, i would think that republicans in a meltdown with each other is a good thing for the white house. not today, right? this can't be helpful. >> no, it's harmful because we are running out of time. we have a little more than 100 hours before we hit the august 2nd deadline. we are spending hour after hour waiting for the republicans to twist arms for a vote that is irrelevant. as soon as they pass it, if they are able to, the senate will vote it down and we have to get back to the table. >> it's worrying that speaker boehner doesn't have control of his party today. there's a sense the tea party element of the republicans driving this delay. yesterday, we saw senator mccain calling them hobbits. they are in a meltdown here. it's not helpful to the american people. at the moment, as things stand, do you have any hope of doing a

deal? >> absolutely we do. the deal is not that hard. everyone knows what we need to do here. make spending cuts that democrats and republicans agree to. we need a mechanism in place to make a serious debt reduction. we have to make sure we are not having the same fight over the christmas holiday. it's easy to do if the republicans move in the right direction. anything that got out of the house of representatives needs democrat and republican votes. hopefully the people can get to work and find the compromise to get it done. the clock is ticking, but there's time. >> what are the options here for the president? you have publicly ruled out from the white house deploying the 14th amendment. would you consider a veto? where are we going here? something has to happen, doesn't it? >> the only thing to break the

impasse, the stalemate is compromise. this is how the problem has been solved for 50 years and how it was solved the last six times speaker boehner voted for a debt limit like this. it's been done with democratic presidents and republican presidents. it's what we need to do here. it's inevitable because the leaders all said default is not an option. we take them at their word. we need to see actions to back the words up. >> do you guys really appreciate how ridiculous this all looks to ordinary people? >> yes. we absolutely do. it is a -- there is a dysfunctional system right now. the reason it's dysfunctional is we have divided government. that requires compromise. even though we have had big disputes over the years, there's been a situation where parties work together for things that have to happen. i know people around the country

are frustrated and angry. the president shares that frustration. it's why the phone lines are jammed on the hill. e-mails and websites are going down because people don't understand why compromise is a dirty word in this town. >> how much responsibility does the white house take for the kurpt economy. there comes a point when blaming george bush no longer holds water. when you look at the credit rating coming down, how much blame are you guys taking in that? >> what the president has said is we didn't get into this mess overnight and we are not going to get out overnight. the president inherited financial challenges. we are working to get out of it. the president said the recovery is happening, but not fast enough. we are not creating enough jobs, the economy is not working.

if we are going to have a real solution, it has to be republicans and democrats working together. it's pushing them to get the debt fight over with. the trade agreements stuck in congress, the extension in the payroll tax cut passed in december of last year. there are things we can do. we have to get past the current impasse we have in congress. we have seen top ceos from jpmorgan demanding a resolution. their concern is not with default, but as it drags out, the threat of the credit rating gets more urgent and realistic. you could get a situation where it happens before a default. are you concerned about that? >> well, we are certainly concerned about a potential downgrade. it's why we have been pushing to

get it resolved. the house of representatives refuses to do anything other than 100% of what they want. until that happens, we can't get something through congress. you are right about the ceos. it's small businesses on main street. they are concerned about this. it's creating tremendous uncertainty. it has to be resolved. this is serious business. all the games happening are so damaging. >> that has president responded yet? >> people all across the white house have been in touch with ceos around the country. he's trying to push congress as quickly as they can. we are sitting here waiting hour after hour for the bill in the senate. it's holding this up. it's critical for the republicans to decide what is best for the country and find

compromise. >> if you are worried about the wording, how about you got us into the mess, leave me to sort it out. >> we are -- what we have to do is focus on finding a way to compromise and everyone and anyone who can call the republicans and the house and let them know how frustrated they are, whether a ceo on wall street or average american fed up, that's what needs to happen. >> final question, dan pfeiffer, obviously a default is unprecedented. the first in the history of america and the first for any president. does the president have sleepless nights about this? it could be a catastrophe for his administration. >> this is an unthinkable situation that we could actually be in a place where on 12:01, august 3, we may not be able to pay the bills.

this isn't about new spending. this is about paying for spending we have done. paying for tax kits from ten years ago. paying for wars. paying for other things that have run out. this is serious. tremendous effects on the overall fanllys. we have to get this done. it's dangerous to be playing games with something so important. >> dan pfeiffer, thank you very much. >> thank you, piers. >> we're going to go straight to kate on capitol hill. what is the mood down there? are we heading toward any kind of compromise the president told us about? >> reporter: it's a strange mood, if you will, pierce. what we are seeing now, we are hearing one thing and seeing another. we are hearing from the spokes people from the leaders they will have a vote tonight. we are nearing the end of the

evening and what we are seeing is the leaders in their offices and members shuttling in and out. what we are told is they are bringing in members at this point who were firm noes on this proposal and trying to twist their arms and convince them to get on board. they are still working late this evening trying to round up support. they are having a hard time doing it. piers, this is obviously part of the process house republicans did not want to have the public having to see they are working late tonight to round up support for a proposal. an embarrassing day for speaker boehner. it looks like he lost control completety. >> on one hand, there's a frustration with speaker boehner. they wanted a grand bargain with him. he walked away.

there's a measure of look, you could have cut a deal with us. this is still the man they need to get the bill through the house in the very end. i have asked will the president, has the president called for a meeting of leadership at the white house? so far, they have not asked for that. we should expect, if that's what's needed, the white house stands ready to do that in the coming days. this entire town is waiting to see the bill passed so they can move on, get in the house and on to the senate where we have seen compromise in the past. it's where compromise can get done. when can it get into the house and on to the plate where the grown ups take over. >> let's go to you, john king. despite your youthful appearance, you have been around the washington block a few times. get through all the washington bs. where are we? >> we are stuck right now

because we are talking about a financial deficit. a budget deficit. washington is stuck because we have a trust deficit. the president doesn't trust the republican speaker of the house and his group, but the new members don't trust their leadership. the tea party members don't trust where speaker boehner wants to go. we were mentioning the letters from the bankers. senior republicans like john mccain are saying new guys, you have to cut a deal. the new members are saying these are the guys that got us into this mess over the past 20, 30 years. to their credit, they are not afraid to keep their campaign promises and to lose their jobs. speaker boehner is trying to rescue their votes. all the incredibly powerful people don't have as much power as they thought.

the president of the united states can't move the debate now. the speaker of the house has new members saying you are our speaker, but we are going to call some of the shots around here. >> john, we have been through the deadline thing many times. it always gets resolved. america has never gone into default. are you getting a sense we have to think the unthinkable. could you imagine a country where the town goes into default? >> most of the people with the votes think it is likely. tonight, the unthinkable is thinkable. yes, i can see a scenario where we get to that point. it's hard to reconcile the plans. to get to that point, we have to go through this ritual. the republicans want to plant their flag and say this is our second proposal, take it. reid wants to bring his proposal up and say this is the democratic proposal.

guess what, the house can't pass the senate and the senate can't pass the house. until we get that process moving, they refuse. the president of the united states says he won't call the congressional leadership. they don't want to take the president's call until they have their votes. they can try to cut a deal. you don't need a calendar to tell you, we are running out of time. >> thank you. kathy morris rogers the vice chair of the republican conference. you spent most of the day with speaker boehner. thanks for joining me. it's been an awful day for the speaker, hasn't it? >> the salespeopler says he's made tremendous progress. we are narrowing in on the votes. the majority of republicans support the plan. he's getting the final votes.

we are confident we are going to get the votes. we will get it to the senate and on to the president's desk. i urge my colleagues to give serious consideration to the plan. this is the second plan from last week. it's clear. it's been tough to get the votes for this plan. i think they need to look at this being the best option as we approach the final days leading up to august 2nd. >> let's be honest here. this plan has two hopes of getting through. one, no hope and bob hope. >> i'm not sure. this is a plan that was largely negotiated over the weekend. then the president raised concerns with the plan. it's one that was negotiated in a bipartisan fashion. speaker boehner has been at the table negotiating in good faith. it's important the administration recognize the new

majority in the house need a game changer. you cannot continue on this path. our plan voted on tonight, there are spending caps and the required vote on the balanced budget. it contains the cuts. it's a step in the right direction. many members don't think it goes far enough. it is us sitting down saying okay, what can we get through the senate and on to the president's desk. we don't want to see america default. >> when talking game changing, i think the american public are sick and tired of games. it happens on late deadlines. you are playing with not just fire but catastrophe. america has never defaulted before. the state of the american economy is so powerless, you could see through the squabbling in washington, the credit rating downgraded anyway. i think people are fed up with it, you know. you must get a sense of that

from the public you meet? >> absolutely. i take it very seriously. i take where we are seriously. i take the mounting debt that we have accumulated as a country seriously. if we don't start being honest about the impact i's having on our future, we won't have the opportunities in america. the republicans have been a part of the solution. we put forward cap and balance. the polls showed two-thirds of the american people supported our plan. the senate wouldn't debate it or bring it up for a vote. that's frustrating to us. we need everyone to be honest about the situation we find ourselves and bring proposals forward. bring the solutions forward. the time is ticking and we are running out of money. >> all we have seen is a power struggle in the republican party. it appears to be one at the moment by the tea party. would you agree with that? >> i would say there are those that believe that the plan that

boehner brought forward doesn't go far enough. they want us to do more. they believe the situation is so serious that we need to impose more serious cuts immediately. finding enough votes to move something forward through the house, the senate and on to the president's desk is the art of politics. the art of the doable. this is the most doable plan we can put forward and we should take what is doable and then come back and see what we can accomplish at a later time. >> congresswoman, thank you very much. >> thank you. coming up, i want to bring in senator chuck schumer. ♪ let me entertain you ♪ let me make you smile ♪ let me do a few tricks ♪ some old and then some new tricks ♪

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that has us going back at this three months from now when you see how much trouble it's causing now will risk our credit agency and tie up the congress from doing other things like focusing on jobs and the economy. it makes no sense to do this for three months. our republican colleagues in the house are playing a game here. speaker boehner has to keep throwing piece after piece after piece of red meat to the hard right lion that seems to be dominating the caucus. it's time to tame the lion, not throw red meat to him. it's not going to accomplish anything. there's talk they have to change the bill. one of the rumors is they are changing it because some of the conservatives want to cut back on pell grants, money that helps kids go to college. it's got overwhelming support of help to the american people. it shouldn't be 100 or 80 hard

right people who don't represent america or the republican party, determining what is done here. thus far, speaker boehner allowed that to happen. >> it's fascinating to listen to the democrats at the moment, with your sweet, innocent smiles, it's the republican's fault, nothing to do with us. the reality is you have continued to preside over a tanking economy. the point to keep blaming president bush and the republicans is getting to the point where you can't do it anymore, isn't it? >> well, you can talk about the economy. we want to get back and work on jobs, legislation and many other things they block. look, they believe in cutting. we believe that there ought to be revenues on the highest income people to balance the budget. we have moved a great deal.

we are willing to make significant cuts. have they moved one nickel? one nickel off revenues? they have said no to everything. i know it's in the media to say you are both to blame. in this case, it's been the hard, hard right that refused to compromise that thinks default would be okay who is calling all the shots and holding everything up. i would hope speaker boehner and mitch mcconnell would understand that and step up to the plate and start talking to leader reid and try to make a compromise. we have shown we are willing to move way off our starting gate to compromise. they haven't moved a dime off it. >> the president does have an option of course, under the 14th amendment to go it alone. why wouldn't he do that? wouldn't that be the master stroke to say i can't work with these republicans for a second

longer, the country comes first, i have the power to do this and i'm going to do it. >> here is the -- the ideal situation, frankly, is to raise the debt ceiling. it's been done 39 times before by republicans and democrats alike. never before has a group said we are not raising the debt ceiling unless our conditions are met. that's playing with fire. it's as if you have a mortgage on your house and you tell the banker, unless you build another room on my house, i'm not paying the mortgage. it doesn't make sense. the same thing is happening here. here is what we think will happen. the boehner bill, they will try to figure out a way to pass it. if they do, it's defeated in the senate. 53 senators signed a bill saying they won't vote for it. she saw the letter and she's saying that's the way to go.

it's like being in never never land. the reid bill will come to the floor. it's compromising. some things republicans like, some things democrats like. it meets the two criteria the republicans asked for. no revenues. an amount of cuts equal to the amount of raising the debt ceiling. it's not our criteria, it's a republican criterion. then that will be on the floor and that will be the last vote. a question vote on that will mean you don't want to default. a no vote means you'll default. at the end of the day, it's a better way to go. at the end of the day our republican colleagues will join us. it doesn't violate a single one of their principles. >> if we get to next week and america does default, do you think the decent thing to do would be for all of you to resign? >> god for bid we default. we are working hard to make sure

it doesn't happen. again, that's the question that says everyone is to blame. in this case, everyone is not to blame. the hard right, which doesn't represent america refuses to compromise. they are the people who should resign, not everybody else who agreed to make compromises. >> senator schumer, as always, thank you. >> thank you, piers. coming up, a member of the bipartisan gang of six. a plan to get this country out of this mess. somewhere in america, a city comes to life. it moves effortlessly, breathes easily. it flows with clean water. it makes its skyline greener and its population healthier. all to become the kind of city people want to live and work in. somewhere in america, we've already answered some of the nation's toughest questions. and the over sixty thousand people of siemens

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the bipartisan gang of six deficit plan may be the last hope on capitol hill. mike is a member of the group. senator, thank you for joining me. a lot of people in america waiting for you guys to do something. what is holding it up? >> well, frankly, right now, we have all kind of politics going on that are, as i call it, toxic. the house of representatives sent two proposals, both of which are going to die on the senate. in the senate, there's no plan available that really does deal in a realistic way with the spending problems that we have. i'm concerned that we may not be

able to resolve the issue with one of the two on the table now. i'm hopeful that the gang of six proposal will receive greater attention. we are developing broader support for it in the senate. more than a third of the senators have approved it. hopefully, at some point, a comprehensive approach like that, a $12 trillion approach is what the credit agencies told us we need to look away from their concern about downgrading american credit. >> the situation seems to most to be the democrats not showering themselves in glory here. they seem on the same sheet. the republicans are completely split, aren't they? you have the tea party saying no, we are not going to sign on to any deal. they don't want any revenue on

taxation. they are saying no, we're not having this. your party is split in two. how does that help america and the american people who are 100 hours or so from the biggest financial crisis the country has ever seen. >> i don't agree that the republicans are split in two. the republican party united in the house and senate that sent to the senate the budget. sent them a proposal to put cuts in place and caps in place that were modest in terms of the issue we are dealing with and asked for a vote on the balanced budget amendment. that was rejected in the senate. now, they are proposing to send another proposal that will try to find the common ground. that will be rejected by the senate or vetoed by the president. frankly, i think the republicans are trying to put forward alternatives here to simply

walking away from the debt ceiling issue and the debt crisis. i point out, the credit agencies made it clear, it's not raising the debt ceiling. if we raise the debt ceiling without fiscal reforms attached to it to show the credit markets of the world that we mean business. then they will probably still downgrade us. >> most republicans, at the moment, have a completely resolute view of taxation. most experts outside of america say of course that's what you have to do. until there's less by republicans on that key thing, how can you talk about a great reformation? >> first of all, the way we need to approach tax reform is to reduce rates and reduce the tax expenditures accordingly and

grow the economy. that's the approach we took in the gang of six plan that is agreed to on a bipartisan basis. putting revenue into the equation through the right approach by making the tax code more competitive is key. that being said, the proposal to increase tax rates is one that the republicans across the board do not accept. i think that's just one of the points where there is great disagreement. the president refuses to -- the republicans refuse to increase tax rates. it's that issue we have faced over the last three to four months. >> an embarrassing day for speaker boehner and not being able to push this vote through. has he lost control? >> i don't think he's lost control, but it's clear the

effort of the speaker to come through with a third approach to try to put something forward to the senate that the democrats can aseptember is moving so far in that direction, he's moving votes on the other side. what we are seeing in the house right now is as the plan diminishes and gets less real, mess powerful, we lose support. unfortunately, i think it's very, very close right now. if i had to make a prediction, i don't know which way i would predict. >> thank you for joining me. >> thank you. coming up, as the clock is ticking, washington is basling. i'll be back with the breaking news in a few moments. [ man ] they said i couldn't win a fight.

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i'm going to go straight to anderson cooper for a preview of "ac 360." >> a major stumbling block on the deal. leader boehner's carefully crafted bill. the vote has been delayed as they try to round up support. we'll talk to rand paul and what they need to sign off on the deal.

we are bringing you all the latest from d.c. if there's time, we'll show you a new study about kids, cell phones and brain cancer. controversial findings. we'll go through them with dr. sanjay gupta. ak today, a man fired a team of lawyers, choosing to represent himself. wait until you hear what happened in court. that's at the top of the hour. >> thanks. mariah carey sends her love, by the way. >> okay. i want to bring back john king and gloria to talk about what's happening tonight. gloria, does anybody have a clue of what's happening? i'm an ordinary person of the public, hearing at a vote that may or may not happen. the country is on the verge of disaster. >> i think you summed it up

quite nicely, piers. look, a lot of members of congress feel the same way. i think what you see going on now is the speaker trying to twist the arms of new members of congress, largely, who don't owe him anything. they came to congress outside and separate from the establishment. he's trying to convince them to cut a deal with him so they can be in good negotiating position with the senate. he knows their bill isn't going to go anywhere in the senate. it is kind of ridiculous, if you will. what really strikes me is that you have a president of the united states elected because he wanted to be transformational. you have a group of house republicans, 87 strong who were elected as freshmen because they want to be transformational in making the government smaller. these two sides cannot seem to

find a way to just approve the debt ceiling. so, it seems a little crazy to me. >> john king, are we seeing something bigger going on here where you have the battle between the republicans and democrats over the debt crisis, but you also seem to have, and it's never been more obvious, a battle internally between the tea party and the others. is that a precursor to what we may see going forward to election year? >> it is, absolutely. we are having a generational divide. old guard, if you will, with the new guard. they don't have a lot of political experience. car dealers are in the legislature. they think you are the guys. remember, george w. bush was president. he had a republican congress at the time. a lot of the debt was run up then. it was run up in that period of time. the new guys look at the older

conservatives and say i'm not going to listen to you. we have something else in play. the american people have been fickle. in 2008, they gave barack obama and electoral college. they didn't know what they liked. they elected all the republican governs back home. president obama says oh no, in my election i want. you have to perspectives claiming the support of the american people. they swung so wildly from 2008 to 2010. a lot of the debates are going to be left for the american people to settle. >> they could swing again, right john? you know, this is a very fickle electorate. they don't like what they are seeing as piers was pointing out earlier. they think it's crazy. they really wanted them to work together to get something done.

that's not whoo they are saying. they are saying the guys in and out of the speaker's office, pizza ordered in for dinner, but no vote. >> gloria, let's put the pieces together. let me ask you, gloria. >> let me ask you glory. if we get to tuesday and there's a default, does the president have to step down? >> somebody has to stand down. there are lots of people who have lots of very logical ways of coming up with some kind of a compromise here. there is a way out of this. i think people know what it is, but the problem is, piers, until you get the vote in the house

and until you get a vote in the senate, the outside game has to play out before people like senator mitch mcconnell and joe biden and harry reid get together to figure it out. mitch mcconnell is committed to the house republican plan. he can't negotiate right now while that's going on. >> i think there's a way out of this, i do. >> john king, scale of 1 to 100, where are we with this. >> scale of one to 100. >> it depends on how you score them in the sense that everybody used them. there are some people at home who think we are armageddon if we defaulted, they are the people who spent the money.

i was here when they peached the president of the united states. i was here when the country led. i have been here for 9/11 and the "challenger" disaster. it depends on what we are talking about. a test to the system, this is a profound test to the system. if you are scaling at that, can your government work, every american family had to do this on their own scale. deal with the bad economy, defaults, deal with the housing. they look at the children in washington saying why didn't you do what i did. maybe you have to bring in the inlaws, but you have to do it wrong. >> as we get closer to august 2nd, they bump it up some. >> there's a key point, gloria. if i could just ask you. it's the playground that is

insulting to the american people right now. a lot of people lost their homes and livelihood. they can barely feed these children. they play these set-up id games. no, i don't want it anymore. >> we could be looking at an antiincumbent way. they don't like what they are seeing. if that gos past august 2nd, i know there are members of congress on the republican side saying it's not going to be armageddon and we have news coming in and we are able to pay the bills past that. let's stipulate at some point soon, something very bad is going to happen unless this gets down. the question i have, how do the poll sixes pay their bills. they say these are the bills i

with pay and this is what i can't pay. that's where the rubber meets the road. >> it certainly is. thank you both very much. coming up, a lot about government battles. the former president of mexico. e in companies embracing the cloud-- big clouds, small ones, public, private, even hybrid. your data and apps must move easily and securely to reach many clouds, not just one. that's why the network that connects, protects, and lets your data move fearlessly through the clouds means more than ever.

mr. president, i'd like to start by talking to you about

this current financial crisis that america has found itself in, literally 100 hours now from a possible default. when you were president of mexico, could you ever have imagined a scenario like this? >> no, not at all. i witnessed how u.s. debt and u.s. deficits been growing since time ago. but it's accelerating. and i think it's a very dangerous place what is going on today here in the united states. and i would ask anybody that is involved to find out a solution. because if not, only going to work against the u.s. economy. it will with the rest of the world. and i think that this moment just coming out of that other mammoth crisis that was also created in this nation, the world doesn't deserve this to be repeated. >> why has the world's number one superpower got itself into such a terrible mess

financially? >> well, it's incredible. because people are not thinking on the future. people is thinking on today. so the savings rate of this nation is very poor. in exchange, the consumption rate is incredible. so people and specifically government doesn't seem to be thinking about the next generation. and i think they deserve this nation to be much more careful than just out to spend itself. and when we have this huge challenge coming from asia, this transfer of this ship from the west to the east, not only of markets, not only of power but also on financial capacities. and if we don't do something in north america and do it very quickly -- and this i'm including mexico and canada through nafta -- we're going to lose this battle. and this shift is going to happen. i have witnessed in korea in

japan when i do conferences that they're preparing to lead the world. and the big question is, what is going to be the ideology? what are going to be the values if they start leading the part of the world? are we still going to have the deep commitment with democracy, with freedom, with equal opportunities to everybody? so where are we going to be leading the dream of the founding fathers of this nation? >> it's a very worrying time. it's a dangerous time as you say for the world's economy. when you see the politicians on both sides, democrat and republican, squabbling now, trading insults and all the rest of it with such a serious situation so close, what do you think of that? >> dangerous game that is being played here. and you know, in mexico i think and in part of latin america that the presidential system as we know it is over.

i think -- are going to be the future. there you don't have this kind of situation. everybody's forced to work towards cohesiveness, towards agreements. i think it's much better. in our presidential library, one of the ideas we're promoting strongly is to let people know, public opinion and politicians, that that other system, the parliamentary system, can be much better today. because either bipartisan like it's here, like the dog and the cat fighting for the bone, or a multiparty system like we have in mexico where 12 years after we reach a total democratic status we have not been able to make a democracy deliver. we have not been able to come to agreement to consensus. and so the key in the reform that we need are laying there dormant in congress.

>> if you were president obama and you've been a president of mexico for six years, if you were in his shoe right new and you're facing a $14 trillion debt in this country, what can he do quickly to try and sort things out, do you think? >> well, he has to negotiate. i mean, when you talk about the discussion, it has two parts. both the republicans and the democrats must find an agreement. they have to find it. and they have to find it in the very short term. >> the republicans are very adamant, many of them, that you cannot raise taxes even in such a crisis. many financial experts outside of america think of course taxation should go up. you've got to get revenue coming in as well as cutting spending. what do you think? >> yeah. but the economy has many combinations. all of them can be mutual if it's under an agreement. you can have an increased taxes

when you need to do some expenditures, well-invested in people, infrastructure, schools and everything. and that works. but also there are times where you have to pull the rope, slow down, and build up to the future. and i think this moment the least thing that this nation should be doing is increasing its deficit. spending more than what it has. so it has to be stopped on both ways. one, yes, increasing income and taxes, the other one is by reducing expenses. i mean, expense, talking about trillions. i asked this morning, what's the next figure? they tell me it's hundreds of trillions. i don't know what's the next. but in my time just 20 years ago we would talk about we would speak about billions. now we're talking trillions. and what is next? i mean, that cannot be -- >> is america going bust

effectively? if it was a business, would it go bankrupt the way things are going? >> oh, yes, no doubt. no doubt. if you get to spending more than what you have, you cannot just get loans and credit all the time. not even if you invest that productively. there's times when you have to refrain your expenses. i think that to keep the wealth of this nation, to keep the equality of life of people here, somebody has to start thinking about the future and the savings rate, reduce the deficits. and that would also benefit the rest of the world. look at latin america. how well we went through this mammoth crisis of '08 and '09 because we were controlling our deficits, which we did not in the past. because we have healthy economies, because we are very careful on inflation. and now so latin america fortunately