entire conversation. and there's no talk of tax increases, and there's no talk of a clean debt ceiling bill, and everyone acknowledges that it is a spending problem and we need to cut. my problem is this, and this is a great first step and the leadership deserves credit, we may cut $2 trillion over the course of the next ten years with this compromise. no matter what, we are going to add $7 to $9 trillion in additional debt even with this plan. that's how serious the crisis is. >> and listen, i think that everyone will agree that it is a serious crisis that we need to cut spending, and we need to reduce our deficit, but here is the thing, a lot of the people are concerned, right, that maybe the right, the republicans have carried this too far and that by cutting spending that it will indeed hurt the economy. you said that you wanted a big, bold deal. was speaker boehner bold enough

in his efforts to get it done? >> no, this is probably the best deal washington could get right now. my argument is that we don't need a deal. i mean, we are bankrupting future generations and we need a solution, and this is not big and bold, but the best deal that the speaker could get, but we need something profound to change the way that the town spends money or our kids and grandkids will never forgive us. >> and i watched the press conference when the leaders came out, speaker boehner and others and they talked about the change of the tone at least in washington, and they wanted more, and this was not a perfect deal. but is there a lesson of compromise here, because if you ask someone on the left, they will say that the right is not compromising and if you ask someone on the right, they say that the left is not compromising, so is this a lesson of compromise and how things happen henceforth in washington? >> well, ultimately, what was passed tonight and what will be passed tomorrow in the senate is a compromise. i think that you probably would

agree with me on that, but all i'm saying is that without this pressure and it was good and respectful pressure from the house republicans, we'd never be here. you know that. we would have raised the debt ceiling by how much, and we'd be talking about spending money and not cuts. ultimately, they arrived at a compromise and it was not profound enough or bold enough for me. >> well, talk about this, if you are going to bring the debt ceiling up. there are many who say that the debt ceiling and the deficit talks have nothing to do with each other and that the crisis was manufactured and all you had to do was to raise the debt ceiling and then promise at least some sort of talks or at least come to a consensus that we need to bring down the deficit and talk and get the president involved, but by bringing in the debt ceiling that you in some way hijacked the american people for a time. >> well, it is a great point. i take a contrarian view, because i think it is pretty cool that the debt ceiling issue for the last eight months became a big issue, and the reason it is a big issue is because this

president has spent an incredible amount of money in the 2 1/2 years and what the american people did is to send us to congress, republicans, to stop it, and the american people basically said, do not give government another blank check. we have raised the debt ceiling 100 and some times in the last 30 years, and why a big deal now? it is because the american people got upset with how much money this president was spending and they sent us there to stop it, and i think that's a great thing. i mean, everybody -- what an educational process we have all had as a country these last three or four months. >> and i want to ask you something on a personal note, because i believe in full transparency here, and it has been a difficult week for you with your personal finances coming out that you owe $117,000 in child support that you haven't paid, and yet, you haven't gone away and keep coming in front of the cameras and keep addressing it. tell america why you have done that. >> well, again, i was sent here

on a mission, and this has been a pretty big time and probably the busiest week or two we have had here and this is an important fight and important debate, and so, clearly, i was preoccupied and wanted to give my everything to this. when it comes to personal family stuff, and we have all got stuff and i will take care of that stuff privately and quietly as long as the people in my district send me here, i'm here to do whatever i can to help save this country for our kids and grandkids, because, again, this is just a deal, but until we as a country get serious about spending, our kids and grandkids, i really believe will never forgive us. >> i have to run, but do you believe that the crisis is behind you and that the people will support you and your constituents will support you in the next time around? >> well, as long as the folks back home agree with what i'm doing, and i do what i say i'm going the do, if i'm fortunate

enough, they will re-elect me. a lot of the the freshmen are here not to be re-elected, but here to respectfully stop the president and the spending, and if we have to make tough decisions and that doesn't get us re-elected, then we have done important work. >> hey, thank you, representative, for answering those questions and i really appreciate it. >> great questions and great to be with you. >> up next, given the democrats' anger over the president's debt deal some are saying that maybe mr. obama should run for re-election as a conservative. but let's look at the moving moment on the house floor as gabrielle giffords returned to congress this evening. [ waves crashing ] [ martin luther king jr. ] i still have a dream that one day on the red hills of georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together

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liberals in congress are not happy with the president's handling of this debt ceiling negotiation, and one congressman emanuel cleaver even called the deal a sugar-coated satan sandwich. joining me now is democratic congressman earl bloomenhauer

who believes it could do more good than bad. what do you make of that satan sandwich? >> well, representative cleaver has colorful language. we are moving to a time when all of the experts have told us that this is likely to make the recovery delayed and maybe set it back. >> well, that is what i want to ask you, congressman, because there are a lot of economists conservative and liberal who agree with you on this, so why this whole narrative lately about cutting spending, good, raising taxes, bad. >> well, i mean, i listen to part of the interview with my friend mr. walsh earlier, and you know, it is absolutely not true what he said. the majority of the public poll after poll said they wanted a balanced solution, that included some modest tax increases, and particularly on the most well off, and reform the tax system, and have a balanced approach,

and have people share in this effort, but what has happened is that because they were willing to hold the economy hostage, there were a number of people willing to drive it over the cliff, and we is never, ever had the debt ceiling held hostage like this to the exclusion of everything else. and what's happened is that it really has shifted some of the discussion with some of the washington insiders and i personally feel that the president and his team bought into that narrative too much. the fact is that the republicans if they really want to reduce spending have the tools available to them, and they can control what comes through the house with the budget. >> so, when you say that the president and his constituents and bought into the narrative too much, are you saying that these are talking points or that will repeat so much that people believe them? >> well, i think they have a

resession on the budget is a loser, and that is not ultimately where we will end up. ultimately in the next few years, we will be forced to increase revenue and not just because the public wants it, but that is the only way that you can bring us into balance. i'll be the first to admit that we need to do things differently, and we could have had a bipartisan effort to start drawing down some of the military expenditures and there is a bipartisan coalition developing to change agricultural subsidies away from the large agri-business. >> let's not get far off of the topic here, because you called this an artificial crisis and doubly so because of what you say is a false narrative and what you just said and then tying the debt ceiling to deficit reduction. >> absolutely. i mean, this is something that was a crisis of choice. the republicans didn't have to bring us to the brink, and

frankly one of the tools that i wished the president had not taken off of the table was the use of the 14th amendment. i don't think that anybody here feels that if the roles had reversed and somehow the democrats had been irresponsible with george bush instead of increasing the debt ceiling when seven times i think when he was president, if it got to the point where it was going to wreck the economy, i have no doubt that dick cheney would have thrown the 14th amendment switch. we should have kept those sort of things open. >> and right. we don't have a crystal ball, but it is, i think it is fair to say that the previous administration was a bit more direct in their approach than the current administration. there's a perception that this president just sort of sits back from the sidelines and watches things and then steps in maybe at the last minute. >> right. well, the tax deal that we got last december, we could have gotten earlier and under more favorable terms. >> okay.

listen, do republicans and democrats have the same idea? because we are hearing that some people don't really know what is going to be in the bill. do both sides have the same idea of what is in the bill, because biden is saying one thing and john boehner is saying another? >> absolutely not. there is not agreement, and you have heard it, and mr. boehner indicating that there is no taxation increase ever going to occur, and that the administration feels that there are some opportunities for revenues, and there are questions about how the trigger is going to be implemented. i think that as we go forward, there will be great, and there will be more clarification. one of the problems when you do something like this at the last minute on such a scale, it is very hard to tie down the pieces, and i think that we are going to learn more in the days ahead. >> well, let me ask you this, and so in november, when the party of 12 come back, with their recommendations, revenues, taxes, you think will be in play

then? >> i think it is very unlikely that the 12 people the way that it is going to be structured will come back with republicans and democrats, and you know, there has to be at least one from each party that agrees with the proposal and i also think that i am going to find ways to circumvent some of the triggers, and i will be surprised if this works as advertised. >> all right. congressman, thank you very much, and we appreciate your joining us tonight, and congressman joining us is joining us now who is in favor of the debt reduction. clearly the president caved, why? >> well, i think that my friend mr. blumenhaur said it correctly, the president bought into it and you could see the

trajectory of the negotiations and put social security and medicare on the table and further and further, you came to the realization that we would end up with a deal that was not going to have any revenue generation in it, and we were going the end up with a deal that was based on spending cuts to discretionary programs, and that that deal was going be hard to swallow, and eventually, that is what we got. >> and what would you have liked to have seen the president do? even mitch mcconnell said on saturday, he said, listen the president is the one who decides this. if he agrees with us, then most of the democrats will fall in line. what would you have liked to have seen from the president? >> i think they he should have used that pulpit of his. he should have kept the 14th amendment as an optional live so he had a bargaining chip in the discussions, and that if we didn't reach a point of compromise and balance he would exercise unilaterally his authority under the

constitution, and the bully pulpit is really important to talk to the american people and get them engaged and the national des cushion on what is going on so that they can weigh in and help guide the elected officials in the right decision and what the american people wanted was balance, and they didn't get it. >> congressman, i want the ask you this, because it is really about the president's political future and whether or not it has helped him, but let me read this first, and then you can comment. your fellow colleague said that the republicans invited the president to negotiate at a strip poker table, and he showed up half naked and then paul krugman called it an abject surrender, and would to president be better to run as a conservative? >> well, he is a democrat and centrist, and we know that, but in any process, you know, the president has to lead his party and you saw it today the effect of his position, and our caucus

split 95-95 in favor and against this deal. and there is considerable power, and considerable willingness on the part of some of my colleagues not to let the president down, and leadership was pushing that was as well. so, is he too conservative, the answer is no. >> the question is not too conservative, but do you feel he is strong enough in coming to the issues to fight for what democrats want? >> at this point, i think that you will find a great deal of frustration, anxiety on the part of the democratic base in all levels, and this is just one in addition to others, and i think that there's going to be an increased job he has on his hands to convince and motivate the voters once again for 2012. >> and you think that this won't matter by 2012 and he won't be hurt by this politically? >> no. he needs to convince the voters that through the next actions that he takes that, you know, this fight is not over. >> okay. >> and the people that are going to be hurt are small businesses,

students, and senior citizens, and he has to be engaged and protecting them. >> congressman, i want to move on to this, because there is a chart stgoing around saying tha democrats are twice as likely wanting their representative to compromi compromise. twice as likely to compromise and get it done, and republicans are twice as likely to want their representatives to stick to their principles. would it be better for the country if the democrats were more like republicans or the republicans were more like democrats? >> well, i think that that is a question that i can't answer. i think that for me and i think for me and many other people who oppose this deal, we were and wanted a balance and we wanted a compromise and this was not a compromise or the deal that involved all sides sharing in the sacrifice and so that the consequence is not to support it. the american people wanted us to get something done, and this deal is something that people are going to wake up to in the next few weeks and months and

realize it was not a deal that involved getting something done. on the contrary, it will set up a continued fights in this congress for the next six, seven, eight months. >> and it is not done until it is done, and you know how that is, and still more votes to be taken. thank you, representative raul grijala. >> thank you. and just what washington needs a new committee and this is super sized. they are to cut the fat from the budget, and who are they? will they use a scalpel or a cleaver? new citracal slow release... continuously releases calcium plus d for the efficient absorption my body needs. citracal. sure, but let me get a little information first. for broccoli, say one. for toys, say two. toys ! the system can't process your response at this time. what ? please call back between 8 and 5 central standard time.

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the all important second stage of the debt ceiling deal involves a bipartisan super committee and it will have to do something that congress could not figure out how much to cut from programs like social security and medicare. so, who is this congressional dream team, and how will that process work? those are good question, and that is why we have people like

tom forman who work here at cnn. he knows these types of things. hi, tom. >> hi, don. you are so generous to use the term dream team and people talk about being in the hot seat all of the time, and no hotter seats anywhere in washington than those on the special joint committee, because it is actually being designed to recreate in close quarters all of the fire and the fury we have seen on capitol hill in the past few weeks. and here is the nuts and bolts of it. take a close look. what we will have is a committee comprised of 12 member, and three of them picked by the speaker of the house, john boehner, and there are three of them picked by nancy pelosi as a minority leader and the head of the senate here and the majority leader harry reid will pick three and mitch mcconnell will pick three, and in theory, these 12 folks will come up with $1.5 trillion in additional debt reduction plans and that is what they are putting on the thanksgiving menu, because it is due right before thanksgiving

day. they have to put this turkey on the table, and i call it that, because a lot of people in both parties are going to refer to it as precisely that when it coms s around. and then just before christmas, the entire congress has to look on this, and they have to vote yes or no with no modifications, no amendments, but just a straight yes we will take it or no we won't. and if the answer is yes, then the president can raise the debt ceiling by $1.5 trillion, and if the answer is no, he can raise it by $1.2 trillion but an automatic across the board series of spending cuts will kick in equal to the increase in the debt ceiling, and that means cuts to defense programs and nondefense programs as well. that is the plan, don. >> i can't believe you mised this one. you said you were going to have to put the turkey on the table, and there is lots of cuts and carving of that turkey they will do. >> well, that is nice, and very clever of you, don.

>> and i have to ask you simpson/bowles, the gang of six, they failed and so the odds are not in their favor. >> yes, they are heavily stacked against them, because when you think about it, these folks have a tough, tough job in front of them and they have to grapple with the notion they are not working in the vacuum, and they are going to be picked by party leaders as we pointed out, and then prodded by the parties to toe the party line, and for democrats that is going to be pushing the tax increases they didn't get this time around and for the republicans it will be furiously resisting the increases all amid the rapidly growing tension of the upcoming presidential election, don. >> and you sit in this chair, and i need a dwik answquick ans this, and with this job you will tick off a lot off people, and who will want this job? >> well, there are ambitious people on capitol hill who will want this job, but it is tough to walk through the mine-field to do it, but if you do it, you are a hero and if not, you keep

walking and it is a tough time just in time for the holidays, don. >> it is a thankless job. thank you, tom foreman and great stuff as always. up next, they rey keep invo ronald reagan to urge their side of the debate, and democrats that is, and so do the republicans, but what would reagan say? his budget director has a pretty good idea. we will talk about the gipper when we come back. vrrooom...vrrroooomm vroom vrrooom vrrroooomm vrrroooomm

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president obama folded like a lawn chair. that's not me talking. that is from david stockman today who was ronald reagan's budget director and he joins me from aspen, colorado, and mr. stockton, why don't you say how you really feel. >> well, you know, the way i feel is that we shouldn't be