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the art of compromise is a deal that washington hates. on opposite sides of the battle is mark zuckerman and grover norquist. what do you believe about the tax increases? >> well, there should have been tax increases if only for a political matter, because everybody in the country seems to have to be participating in what i call shared sacrifice and that is how to get it done and also a bipartisan deal, and if anything gets done, both parties have to assume responsibility for it. that was lost. there was a moment there when

boehner came to the president had $800 billion in tax, the elimination of what i would call tax expenditures or whatever you want to call it, all of the special deals built into the tax code that so distort the economy, and that money was going to go to rationalize the tax code, and i think that would have been a real stimulus to the economy, but the president frankly introduced another $400 billion request for tax increases and blew the deal out of the water. so lousy leadership on both sides as far as i'm concerned. >> grover norquist, you have won the day, you are implacably opposed to any tax increases, and many of the republicans signed up to that, and you have got what you wanted. here's the question for you, if i get you back on the show in a month's time, are you absolutely certain that this no taxation at any cost policy of yours will mean that the economy will have recovered? >> well, it moves us at least in the right direction. certainly, we didn't get as much

spending restraint as republicans wanted. there was a tremendous amount of compromise, and the republican budget passed through house. it was a $6 trillion cut in obama's planned spending, the ryan plan, but what we got was $2.5 trillion which is a lot of give on the part of the republicans. but what republicans were not willing to do was to raise taxes rather than cut spending. mort zuckerman said that the reason he wanted a tax increase is because you had to do that to get the spending cuts, and that is the reasoning of 1982, and the reasoning of 1990, but both failed budget deals where the tax increases were real, and the spending cuts were phony. what we learned in this, and that's the good news is that you don't have to raise taxes as part of some deal. what you can do is to focus on the problem. too much spending. and that's exactly what we did. it was bipartisan, and you saw quite a number of democrats in the house vote for it, and the president says he is for it, and he is a big democrat, and

democrats in the senate will vote for it. we have a bipartisan spending cut. >> and here is the thing, grover. i have listened to you espousing this for a few weeks and you have had a good day today. and my point is both presidents reagan and clinton raised taxes in slow economies and went on the have good economies and nothing this principle intrinsically wrong with it, and my issue with your implacable position is at what point does it stop being implacable, and at what point with the economy continuing, and the markets have responded badly to the deal, and assume that the economy continues to tank in america, and assume that the rating is downgraded and assume it gets worse before any sign of improvement here, and at what point do you and the republicans who agree with your position on taxation stop and think actually we have to consider it? >> i don't think that putting leaches on a patient is ever a good idea. i don't care how sick the

patient gets or how well the patient gets, but putting leaches on the patient is not a good idea. raising taxes does not help the economy, and as a matter of fact the two cases you talked about reagan had a significant rate reduction and then some tax increases, the tax cuts are what helped grow the economy. with clinton, what happened is that the economy didn't turn around until the republicans captured the house and the senate and they also cut the capital gains tax. so those are -- >> well, let me bring in mort zuckerman who is smiling wryly at the description of leaches here. mort, over to you. >> well, let me say that there is a fundamental issue that we all have to face which is that our expenditures as a country way exceed the income, and as erkin bowles said, this is the most predictable crisis in the country's history and we have to do something about it, but it is a political process as well as economic process and with all due respect, i believe, a, we should have had much more in the expenditure cuts because of the

weak economy, but over the next several years larger cuts in expenditures and if it took a modest amount of tax increases to get that done, i would have supported it. i do agree that we absolutely must do something about this deficit, because otherwise, we are going to break the fiscal side of this economy and break the economy. we cannot support the kinds of deficits that we have incurred, and there is no question about that. and any frankly, any reasonable economist would say that. >> gentlemen, thank you both very much coming up, what the $2.4 trillion deal means to you. dave ramsey is here to explain. ♪ ♪

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real guidance and solutions from a regions personal savings and debt review. plus, at regions, you'll get the award-winning service people are talking about. it's financial control - well, like you haven't had before. wow. ( bike bell) unbelievable. anderson, when i was interviewing erin burnett there was a lightning strike, did you see that? >> wow, that's amazing, i didn't see that. >> amazing. >> thunder bolts all around. >> exactly. well we obviously have all the latest in breaking news in washington. we'll get full coverage from our correspondent, the last-minute maneuvering. we'll also talk with senator rand paul who plans to vote "no"

on the bill tomorrow in the senate and the democratic congressman that voted "no" today calling it a sugar-coated satan sandwich. and congressman debbie wasserman schultz was there. we'll talk to her. and the latest from the murderous crackdown in syria. a lot to cover, piers. i'll bring in a man who knows a lot about this debt deal, dave ramsey, host of "the dave ramsey show." let's forget the washington rhetoric. what does all this mean for the average american joe. what should they be doing with their money right now? >> well, that's the funny thing about it. the average american joe actually is the economy. it doesn't come from the top down out of washington. it does come from the bottom-up.

so if enough people start doing smart things with their money it will heal the economy. smart things are outlined as having savings for emergency. living on less than they make and getting out of debt which would all be good rules for washington, as well. >> we're getting a lot of reaction on twitter tonight. abnormally high volumes. if you want to get ahold of me, piers morgan, give me your opinion. they are saying that they've had enough of these politicians squabbling, literally, fiddling while rome burns. >> well, there is a lot of that but they've also had enough with this, people with their heads stuck so far up the politics all they can speak in is sound bytes. people stuck on ideology and where they say it's hilarious that the far left says all the economists agree. the far right say all the economists agree. all economists don't agree on anything. they are there to make weather forecasters look smart. ridiculous.

so what all americans can agree on is they are well aware we're spending 42% more than we're taking in and they're aware that has to be fixed. most people are smart enough to know we can't fix it in well fell swoop with this particular bill. it is time this is addressed. this is not a false crisis. it's a real crisis that's been brought to the head by the emotions of the american people. >> david, you spent a lot of time talking to the average american and understanding their cares and concerns. there is this kind of mythology being built up, i think, in washington, that americans aren't prepared for tax increases but i don't get that sense. i get the sense that there's much move realism on the streets in america about the need to do that. >> you know, what americans say about taxes to me, piers, is this. whether on the left or right, they want this sense that people are carrying their fair share. there's where you get into that argument is "fair share." we have 49% of americans last year that did not pay a dime in federal income tax.

not one dime. and mathematically, we've got this bunch of folks that say the rich and business can solve it all. there's not enough money in the rich and business to solve it all. it will be a shared sacrifice and sadly, it's going to hurt all of us when we come out of our pocketbooks and when we cut services and things back. the government has mathematically reached a point it can no longer be all things to all people. and it's going to be tough on all of us. all of us enjoy things that are brought to us by d.c. and it's mathematically not able to. >> are you very concerned about what's going to happen the rest of the year in terms of america's economy? nothing is reacting positively to this deal at all and this seems to be not the last throw of the dice, but pretty close to it. >> well, i think that this is going to at least put this off the front page and it will let people go back to their lives. when i go to a restaurant and spend money and when i buy gas to go to that restaurant to

spend money and i buy a car to drive there, that's the economy. when people are sitting at home and fretting and worrying if there's going to be collapse all around their ears it freezes everyone like a deer in headlights and that's not good for anyone. it freezes creativity and passion and most of all it freezes the flow and velocity of money in the economy. that's what we need to get moving. people moving around and doing deals and doing business instead of being frozen by this so it gets this off the front page and let's people go back to their lives. >> dave ramsey, as always, talking a lot of sense, thank you very much. >> thank you were piers, good to be with you. >> right back after this break. we'll never stop sharing our memories,

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before we go tonight i want to take a moment to pay tribute to an amazing woman who less than seven months ago, congresswoman gabby giffords was the victim of a assassination attempt. tonight, she was on the floor of the house amidst the ugliest debate's in washington's history. they suspect no there will forget. i know that i won't. that's all for us anderson cooper with "ac 360." we'll talk to debbie wasserman schultz who helped her.

the breaking news on the debt deal, no vote until tomorrow in the senate and a breathtaking moment as the house was voting to pass it looked and sounded like business as usual and then as we pointed out, everything changed, listen. for that moment or two, nobody watching knew quite what to make of it and then word got out it was wounded congresswoman gabby giffords entering the chamber to cast her vote since her shooting in mid january. that's later on in the program. she returned and said her vote was needed. turns out it was not that close. take a look. >> yay, 269. nays, 161. the bill is passed without objection. a motion to reconsider is laid on the table. >> of that 161, 95 democrats and majority voted no. so did 66 republicans. liberal democrats and tea party republicans joining in opposition. a democratic congresswoman who

voted no and called eight a sugar coated satan sandwich." before air time, kate baldwin spoke briefly with house speaker boehner. >> how do you feel, sir? >> i feel great. >> what do you think of the vote this evening? >> i thought it was a strong vote but the first step in many steps yet to go. >> what you hope the american people take? what do you think the message is for the american people tonight? >> the process works. it may not be pretty but it works. >> definitely not pretty. president obama said nothing publicly today but reluctantly endorsed the compromise last night. >> is this the deal i would have preferred? no. i believe that we could have made the tough choices required on entitlement reform and tax reform right now. rather than through a special congressional committee process. >> someone on the left put it differently. paul krugman slamming mr. obama

under a headline reading "the president surrenders." you can decide what happens. more than $2 trillion in savings over the next decade including $21 billion next year, a little more than $900 billion agreed on for the next ten years and a bipartisan commission made up of six house and senate members would be charged with laying out by this thanksgiving, at least another $1.2 trillion in spending cuts and or revenue increases to complete the deal and stay away from social security and medicaid. if the panel can't agree, across the board cuts would kick in. the bill would call for a vote on but not passage of a balanced budget amendment to the constitution. gloria borger talked about that last week. in exchange for all that the debt ceiling will be raised through the end of next year. democratic and republican supporters each trying to claim credit for getting a handle on the deficit. >> we need to return the fiscal responsibility. how is it that weir going to be able to do that? getting our fiscal house in order.

>> the american people have spoken loudly. they want us to get our fiscal house in order. >> fiscal handcuffs on this congress that are sorely needed. >> washington is beginning to get its fiscal house in order. >> wow, remarkable how responsible and on the same page everyone sound there is but the ordeal that washington is putting the country through is not yet over. the senate does not vote until tomorrow. deadline today, somehow ensuring they're not just going into the 11th hour in this hot mess but up to the last second of the last minute of the 11th hour. in polling, people were asked for their one word assessment of the budget negotiations. 2% had something positive to describe the process. 2% with a positive word. you can imagine some of the words folks would use. not a kind word, but positive. the number one word used was ridiculous. all the angles tonight. john king joins us on capitol hill. jessica yellin and gloria borger is with us, a six-box, along with ali velchi and eric

erikkson. a lot of talk about winners and losers. you say the president maybe wins by losing? how so? >> remember, anderson, at the we inge the president was trying to negotiate a $4 trillion deal and he gets a little less than half of that. he said he wanted to do it in a one-fell swoop. this is two-tiered so this will be back in six months. he said it needed to be balanced. he didn't get it in the first swoop and unlikely to get it in the second swoop. why does he win? as a candidate for re-election, bad gdp numbers on friday and an anemic report on this friday. the last thing the president needed was to be the first president in history to have default happen on his watch and the last thing he needed beyond that was more uncertainty, more turmoil, a collapse of the markets, a president running for re-election in a tough economy,

he has enough to worry about. he doesn't need a default. >> jessica, does the white house see this as a win? >> they see this as the better outcome of many possible outcomes. anderson. a few days ago plenty of democrats thought at this point we could be at a 50/50% chance of default. so this is a happy outcome. at the white house there's a sense of exhausted relief. it's the first night in many weeks that there are lights out at this building. people have gone home and it's a little bit lonely here on the lawn. and they're aware they've been bruised politically by this fight. that they have left some democratic priorities imprint on the table that they'll have to stand and fight for again. but this is certainly not the worst of all the possible outcomes they could have faced and also think the republican party has not served itself well in this fight and will have a lot to answer for in the upcoming election.

>> gloria, saying it's not the worst doesn't necessarily mean it's a win either. someone could argue that president obama leaks weak and the republicans seem to have gotten more than the democrats got. >> well, you know, first of all nobody really wins here in public opinion as you just said, because the public looks at this and says -- why can't they just get this over with? do their jobs and raise the debt ceiling? but i was talking to a senior white house official today who said, if you look at this down the road, we have some other land marks coming up in november and again in december and he said, this could frame the debate for the white house for 2012. if republicans are only for cuts in entitlements and not for any kind of revenue, that's something that our public opinion show the public does not support. and you raul when the ryan budget came out right around the summer, republicans started going home to their town hall meetings and started getting

grief on the medicare issue. so this official's position is, well, this could come back to that point again if we don't do anything beyond entitlements, when we have to deal with what the commission tells us to do. >> ali, what affect does this have on the federal debt? >> it brings it down by $2.1 trillion over ten years, that's not enough, that's -- >> that's from what it was projected to be. >> correct. so that's why -- >> republicans are saying you're still spending $7 trillion. >> we've done the math, there's no way to bring the math in line and bring the deficit down, down, without increasing what republicans call revenues, but taxes. there's just no math. >> no way to do it? >> the only way to do it is grow like india and china but that's not going to happen in america. that's the only way out of this so this has to happen. president obama as john said, wanted a $4 trillion deal. that's what the ratings agency said we needed and he got half.