mark sanford live tonight.

tonight the congressman has been called the intellectual godfather of the tea party. just barely to bachmann in the ames straw poll this weekend. joining me is ron paul. you are the most untalked about contender today after this weekend i can ever remember. you should be getting as many headlines as michele bachmann. you nearly beat her but the media seemed obsessed with her and not you. why is that? >> i should be asking you. you are part of the media. it is the media that picks and chooses. >> i've got you on. i'm making my statement. i've got you on my show. >> i'm looking for an explanation, too. my supporters are convinced. they are afraid of me. they don't want my views out there. they are too dangerous. we want freedom and we are challenging status quo.

we want end to the war and the gold standard and views people can't handle. they can't handle the freedom. they want dependency and socialism and welfarism. i don't think they like to hear our views. but i think we will make the best of it and do well. i think that the internet still is alive and well and programs like yours will still have me on. >> we certainly will. it is a fascinating part of the preliminary stage if you like, of the election battle. what do you think of michele bachmann. she thinks she has a chance now of becoming nominee. what's your view? >> well, she does. her name is on the ballot. she did well in a straw poll. she does identify with, you know, some independent thinking people. she does not want to be seen as status quo and the establishment. so i know her well. we have been friends. i just disagree with her views, because i don't think she's that far from the status quo as i would like her to be and i would like this country to be.

so her views are quite different on personal civil liberties and on foreign policy and therefore they will be different on personal liberty and spending habits as well. >> i mean, a lot of democrats are saying that michele bachmann and you are threats that should be taken seriously or dangerous. that normally means coded language for they would love for you to do well because it will rip the republicans in half and probably guarantee president obama wins the next election. >> i don't know. i'm not too frightened about that. i do well with the independents. and even your own station there, when you do polling, i come out first or second against obama. i think the democrats fear me. when they try to pick who they want to run against, when a democrat picks they say we fear huntsman. they never bring up the subject that i would slash in to obama's civil libertarian viewpoints. he doesn't follow through on belief in personal liberties and

he does not support ending the wars. he expanded the wars so the progressive base has left obama. i think the establishment doesn't want the status quo challenge would be most opposed to me and quite frankly the leadership in both parties are supportive of the wars and the federal reserve they are supportive of the entitlement system. therefore, both media and party wise, they would be very, very nervous about us getting the expression of support that we have got and they want to squelch it if they can. i am used to this. this has been going on a long time. this is nothing that is actually new. sometimes i'm pleased with the progress we are making and when we can win a poll, essentially tied in the poll in iowa it shows strength for our viewpoint and our campaign. >> tell me this, you are 75 years old now.

you have served 12 terms in congress. you have had two unsuccessful runs at the white house, and yet perversely, despite all of that, you have actually arrived at a position now where your views are more and more in line, i would imagine, with many average americans. they are fed up with washington behavior. they concede there is a need to cut spending dramatically. i would imagine most americans are beginning to think the troops should come out of afghanistan and iraq, as well. this could be your time, couldn't it? it might be your last chance. >> i would think we do have a very good chance. i usually summarize this when i'm at the rallies where we have good turnouts and i got a lot of applause. freedom is popular. people like to be free. especially when they see the failure of government. that's why so many people are coming our way. even those that depend on governments they realize we are flat out broke. this is why we are getting support on ending the wars.

even if they say we need to be over there and fill the vacuum and afraid things are going to happen but we can't afford it. we have to borrow the money we need to fight these wars and they are talking about starting new ones all the time. this is popular with young people. freedom is a fantastic idea when you see the failure of government our views become more prevalent and we are more main stream than before and the most magnificent thing they have understand how we pay for it we can't tax and borrow enough. more people are understanding the federal reserve has something to do with it. oh, you mean they print this money? the money is not backed by anything. people are shocked. when you find out a third of the $15 trillion they pump in to the economy went to foreigners. some have gone to the british banks for all we know. so, no, people are upset. they don't like to see the rich bailed out, middle class shrunk and the poor losing their houses. that's what they are fed about

and the austrian school of free markets explains it and we predicted it would happen. we are waking up to the fact. >> you are a charismatic guy and did well in the straw poll. it doesn't mean a lot but it is an indicator that you have a popular vote there. you nearly won it. what i hear about you is very experienced, charismatic. people like you. but the thing that holds you back is when you stray in to extremity. they don't like the fact you are so completely opposed to any foreign aid. they don't like the fact you want to legalize heroin. people don't like your total intransigence of tax increase. especially when you have warren buffett saying hit the super rich harder. are you prepared at this moment when everyone is wondering which way the republicans will go, are you prepared on the extreme

lines you have taken to soften, moderate, to in short make yourself more electable? >> well, why should somebody soften their viewpoint on defending the rule of law and the constitution? that would be foolish. the extremists are in charge and have been in charge the last four years since they have been allowed to print money at will. that's why we extended ourselves overseas and have run away spending with our entightlement session and it is so extreme. this idea that you have a couple of trillion -- this year our entitlements and debt has obligated our people to $5 trillion. they think i'm extreme? i mean this is weird. it is not just ooh, we will print up the money and everybody will be wealthy. they give out the money and it goes to the wealthy people and the poor get poorer. that is weird. it is really bad. it is bad economics. it's bad morality. it doesn't conform with our constitution and the people know

this. they are really waking up to this. and this seems to be -- most people come up to me and say what you say is common sense. it is not like i'm spouting off some extreme position. >> hang on a second. hang on a second. i don't think that people are rushing up to you in the streets of america saying, legalize heroin. that's common sense, are they? >> no. and in fairness to me. i've never used the word heroin once in a campaign ever in 30 years. it is somebody in the media that says we will interpret what he said. this might mean that he would allow the states to do such and such. all i'm saying is people ought to have freedom of choice as you have freedom of choice in your first amendment rights picking and choosing what you do on tv i think personal choices. i use the example of personal choices to say why is it the federal government comes down with a s.w.a.t. team to arrest

people who drink raw mill? what has happened to this country? i never use the drug as an example because i know how people would dem dag going it. there were no marijuana law before 1937. we have spent a trillion dollars on the war on drugs and it hasn't done one thing except enhance drug dealers. the idea you can take my philosophy and i'm not accusing you of doing it but others have. but take my philosophy and say ron paul's philosophy is he is going to legalize heroin. >> if you are such a protagonist for people's choice and freedom of choice, why are you so opposed to same-sex marriage and to any form of abortion under any circumstance? that is not supporting choice? >> i think you are mixed up on the marriage amendment and i believe people can do what they want. i don't want the government involved in marriage.

anyone can do what they want. they shouldn't force their bill on other people. on abortion i realize as a physician if and scientist that there is a legal and biological definition of life and most people don't think of it. if you say a woman has the righ wants with her body and what is in her body, that means that an eight-pound baby a month before birth can be destroyed and the doctor be paid for it. there is something awfully bizarre about a society that says oh, that's okay because it's a woman's body. and a every argument for all abortion endorses the principle that you can take that life and abort it and kill it. and i had to witness this. it's very disturbing. so i think that somebody has to speak for the meek and the small, and they do have legal rights. if you're in a car accident and a woman's pregnant and her baby

dies, you're -- this is homicide. you've committed a very serious crime. you killed a life. so this whole thing that is simple to woman's right to do what she wants with her own body. no. you have to deal with the fact -- you have to decide is there a real life there? and there is a real life there. i'm liable as a physician. if a woman comes in and is a week pregnant or nine months pregnant, if i do something wrong, rightfully so i can be liable for injuring the fetus. so if i give her the wrong medication, i'm liable for this. to pretend that life doesn't exist, that's like putting blinders on. and i don't talk a whole lot about it. but i've made the emphasis the other day that if you truly care about liberty, you have to understand life. because how can i defend any individual's right to lead their own life as they choose and even do dumb things and drink raw milk or whatever they want to do, at the same time say that life is not precious? and we can throw away a life even if it weighs eight pounds because it's within the woman's

body. i believe in property rights. i believe that a baby in a crib deserves protection, even though i honor property. and a house is our castle. but nobody, nobody would say oh, a woman after the baby's born we can kill it. and today we have this -- all these abortions. but if a young girl is in a desperate situation and she happens to deliver her baby and kills it, she is arrested immediately. but if she had done it a day before, there was no crime and the doctor gets paid money. even if you divorce this all from the law and enforcement of law, but morality. our society has to decide whether that is morally right or wrong in dealing with this. i have high respect for life. therefore i have high respect for liberty. and it's hard to separate the two. >> you've made your point very forcefully, as always. with lots of people who vehemently disagree with you. but that is the beauty of a democracy. and i appreciate you joining me.

>> thank you. good to be with you. coming up, the man who once had hopes of his own white house run, former south carolina governor mark sanford. we're the wassman family from skagway, alaska. happened to come across quicken loans online. [ chris ] quicken loans constantly kept us updated and got us through the process twice now. quicken loans is definitely engineered to amaze. they were just really there for us. [ male announcer ] this is what it's like getting an amazing discount on a hotel with travelocity's top secret hotels. the easy way to get unpublished discounts of up to 55% off top hotels. harpist not included. ♪ when i got my medicare card, i realized i needed an aarp... medicare supplement insurance card, too. medicare is one of the great things about turning 65, but it doesn't cover everything. in fact, it only pays up to 80% of your part b expenses.

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mark sanford is a man who knows the republican party from the inside, and he knows how fast things can change in politics. the he was once talked about as a presidential candidate. that is before his affair, his divorce and the departure from the governor's mansion. now after two years, mark sanford going public again. he joins me now. welcome. >> thank you.

>> my obvious first question is why are you doing this interview? what would you hope to gain from this? >> i can't hammer nails for the rest of my life. i've been down at the farm you all were nice enough to visit you. get to the point where it's comfortable to be, it's time to start speaking out again on issues that i've cared about for 20 years of my life. you don't invest 20 years of your politics if you don't really, really care. and i care deeply. i'm very worried about the direction of our country. i think if we don't watch out, we could lose it. benjamin franklin's famous words were basically handing you a republic if you can keep it. and i think we're at a really, really precarious point, the likes of which people don't fully grasp or understand. >> in a way, you were the very first kind of leader of the tea party before it was formed into a proper revolutionary party. when you have seen what has happened to america, and you have seen the emergence of the tea party as a proper political force, do you feel a slight twinge of regret you're not at the forefront of this?

there is an amazing and real fuel with the tea party that i don't think people fully grasp. i think a lot of people think that's about spending. but i think it's really about much, much deeper american values. one is fundamental angst about opportunity. you know, the beauty of the american system is that it provides opportunity. and there is this long-held belief that i did so well, my kids are going to do better than that, my grandkids are going to do better than that. i think the part of the fuel that has fuelled the tea party is people really calling that into question. i don't know if that's is true for my kids. i don't know if they're going to do better than i am. and i think the other part, and i saw this during the stimulus debate. i spoke out vociferously against the stimulus when it first came out. i was the first governor to formally reject it. what i saw then was people genuinely concerned about the issue of equity. the glue that holds us together as americans, as disparity as we

might be is the belief it's a fair system. you work hard, you'll succeed or fail on the idea based on meritocacy. >> there is someone who has a beach house in the hamptons who is getting bailed out. meanwhile my cousin who runs a little pizza shop, he ain't getting build out there. is a genuine question about opportunity. >> do you agree with warren buffett when he said the tax system has to be reformed to hammer people like him, the super rich who are paying a disproportionate amount of tax compared to the guy on the street? >> i would say i absolutely believe this the notion of tax reform. we need either a fair tax or a flat tax, a much simpler form. i think that warren buffett was terribly misleading with what he said. i think at two different levels. one is, you know, he was basically looking at capital gains tax, 15%.

what he is not including is the fact that he also owns the company. and so there is a corporate tax of 35%. we effectively have the highest corporate rate in the world. so you combine and you're about at 50%. he wasn't including the corporate tax. the other thing that is really misleading is berkshire hathaway, his company doesn't pay dividends. what is the tax on unrecognized gains in america? zero. he doesn't need the cash flow like his secretary or somebody else might. he can make millions and millions of dollars on a daily basis, get no tax because it's rating assets. >> which of the republicans at the moment -- we're seeing a clear pattern beginning to emerge, romney, bachmann, perry and so on. who do you think fundamentally has what it takes in the overall package to seriously challenge barack obama? >> i think that the primary system will winnow that out. >> what is your gut feeling? what would you say? >> you're trying to get me to pick a horse.

>> i'm saying you're in the paddock, and these horses are being shown around. >> yeah. >> what is an early feeling you're getting for who could beat him. >> how about this. what i would say is i think there are a couple of attributes the american public is in search of. one is paul ryan's sort of technical expertise of the budget. a lot of time platitudes are talked about in terms of ooh, we're going to cut spending, or we're going to reform taxes. i think that the beauty of the ryan budget, whether you agree or disagree with it is it was very specific in nature. and i think we're at that point given the overall crisis that i see coming our way where in we need specifics. >> you would like to have a kind of hybrid of him and someone like chris christy, who i spent a day with. and i found him very impressive. but he made it pretty clear he wasn't going to run this time. do you believe him? do you think he is persuadable as we get through the next few months and we get to the proper primary, could you see him rallying to the cause of the party if no one has emerged by then that people don't think could beat obama? >> i'm listing attributes.

whether it's him or rick perry. you go down the list, each one has their different attributes. i think the two things most need at this point given the fact that we've got $57 trillion in contingent liability in this country, given the fact that we have a real issue with competitiveness is real earnest plain spokenness on how bad our problem is. because the american public i think can handle it. but i think they need to be really educated and the plain facts need to be laid out in terms of how really desperate our situation is. >> presumably, you would lean more towards a tea party nominee than you would towards one of the more moderate type? >> absolutely, yes. >> so is michele bachmann the one in that case? is she the obvious person now beginning to capture enough of the public's imagination to potentially be that person? >> no. i don't think you could look at it that simplistically. i think that ron paul, who was just on, has a huge tea party backing. i think that rick perry has really excited folks with across

both social and financial circles in terms of he is sort of a hybrid between the bachmann and perhaps romney. so i think that there are a couple different folks out there vying for a tea party. what i will say is whoever really captures i suspect will be the republican nominee. >> i don't want you to necessarily name someone if you're not ready to. but of those names, of the three, you know, which one if you had to put one in the race tomorrow? >> i'm not going to pick a horse. but i will say. let me go back to the reason i'm on this show, which is i think we're looking at a global depression coming our way. and i think our ability to survive as a republic will be determined by how we respond. historically, and i think thus far, we have gotten in essence prescription wrong. and if we continue to apply that wrong prescription, i think we'll see hyperinflation that could very well cause us to lose the republic. >> get a little break. when we come back, i want to take you back to the scandal

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there was so much destruction in the last chapter of my life that i really wanted to build from that. i wanted to construct something, and particularly i wanted to do something like that with my boys. so i think that there was, i don't know something of a healing process that went with building this and the other structures that marked my summer. the thing that i think anybody thinks about who has failed at some level, whether one fails in their marriage, whether one fails in finances, whether one fails in any chapter of life, which is, you know, god, how do you use me in the next chapter of life? will there be a next chapter? what can i do? what it is i can do to use the talents i have to some meaningful purpose and some good. >> a candid mark sanford last week at a private retreat where he lives now. mark, you've been kicked all over the place, publicly humiliated, trashed by the

media, trashed by almost everybody. you know, you're public enemy number one in politics for that period. you have been followed by others. the cycle moves on. others fall down. they get kicked too. what was the experience like for you on a human level? because you're not the caricature that we all read about. you're the guy -- in fact, you were honest enough to say in an interview that you used to pick up papers and say you idiot, other people who had done what you had done. suddenly you're that guy. how does that feel? >> it's humbling. we were just speaking a moment ago, and i said to you very candidly that i've done thousands of interviews back through congress and through the governorship, and i was never one moment afraid. it was we could agree or disagree on an issue, but we were where we were. now as you step back out because i think i need to do my best as best i can in warning the country on what i think is coming our way if you don't change direction, you still walk out scared. i've never been scared before. but i'm a little frightened

inside and i think it is because you go through that two-year process which was rather glaring. and you don't want to disappointment anybody. you know that you let a lot of people down. and there was a whole lot of anxiety that comes with an interview there for thinking on how you might let somebody down. and you don't want to do that. >> looking back on it, you're still with the woman that you left your wife for, an argentinean, maria belen chapur. proving i guess that this wasn't just a short-term fling. you didn't throw everything away for nothing. that there is a love story there. given that, do you feel great regret, or is that the wrong emotion to put to you? >> well, i think that i mean, anybody who has been married doesn't start at the beginning thinking boy, i hope i some day get divorced. i hope that some day the train comes off the track.

so there's got to be regret there is something sacred about a family unit, about boys. i have four boys. you have some boys. and anything that brings harm to to your boys, you have genuine regret about. i think that part of the journey for me over the last couple of years has been, you know, first professionally, in the wake of the whole storm, you know, there is a question do you just quit and walk out of there and never see another camera again, which would have been by far the easiest thing to do. >> you didn't do. you stuck it out. >> yeah. and professionally, can we somehow make some good of this. because what people were telling me at the ground level was mark, you messed up. you disappointed us, but you finished strong. we tried as best we could and had actually the most productive legislative year that we had in all eight years during the last year. in a personal sense you hope you learn from it. >> what do you think you learned by it? >> i learned a lot. i never publicly judged, but privately i judged. i think we're all prone to do

so. and you read the paper and indeed say loser, loser, idiot, moron. >> you voted for the impeachment of bill clinton over monica lewinsky. >> now you look at things and say by the grace of god, i'm going to worry about the log in my own eye before i worry about the splinter in somebody else's. i've learned a lot about grace there is a phenomenal level of human grace out there which is a reminder of god's grace. >> how is the public? >> they're incredible. again, you know, people would come up and say look, you're human. you're going to not get it perfect. so i think it is true, as i was saying just in that clip a moment ago, whether it's a financial mishap, we're all going to make mistakes. an old-timer took me aside and said one of the keys is the only real mistake you make in life is the one you don't learn from. >> i learned a few weeks ago you have this extraordinary moment in -- i think in the street.

a woman just came up to you and said can i give you a hug. you look like you need a hug. >> yeah, yeah. that was actually more than -- that was back in the middle of the storm where i thought i might be stoned to death if any woman saw me. i was in sumter, south carolina. and this big black woman was walking down the street and put her arms out and said you need a hug. i had little choice in the matter. she was bigger than i was. >> how did that make you feel? >> it was fabulous. i think we all need grace. and we all need love. and there is plenty of judgment to go around. and there is certainly a role by folks in the media and others to be played in getting things uncovered and rights wronged, or wrongs right. but i think there is an abiding need for human grace and love. and i got it that day on the street. and i've gotten it many times since then with people across my state. >> is it satisfying to you that the relationship has lasted with maria? you were hammered at the time you were having some sort of mid-life crisis.

but this was actually a real love story. you fell in love. >> i did. i'm guilty of that. but it didn't take away from the fact that i handled a whole number of things wrong there have been consequences from that and that's something i've had to deal with and hopefully learn from. >> what would you do differently? >> a whole host of things, none of which are particularly productive in terms of my boys who might be watching this show. and i hope to respect that. >> would this thing have really made much difference? >> i would say a couple of different things. people tend to focus on what goes wrong at the time of an affair or another or whatever. but in reality, that's a long time coming. so really, if you go back ten years earlier, i with us doing things wrong in the marriage that caused things to get derailed. and i think that anybody out there, you know, ought to really think about this notion of fire proofing their marriage, first of all, by having their priorities right. i think as men, we tend at times to define ourselves by what we do.

and i think that trying to impact the direction of our country is an incredibly important job. but it pales in comparison to what i now believe to be my first job which is to love god with all my heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. if you get that part as true north, a lot of the other is going to take care of itself. i would say, you know, that i failed in terms of properly loving my wife. a lot of guys will complain my wife doesn't do this, my wife doesn't do that. the reality is there was some song back when i was in high school. if you want to get closer to me, you want me to get closer to me, get closer to me, something along those lines. and i think, you know, a guy took me aside. again, in the middle of the storm. i wish there was a school for this kind of stuff. my dad died, he got sick when i was in high school, died when i was in college. and you kind of figure it out as best you can. but i think i didn't properly love my wife. i think that, you know, fundamental to a woman, i'm not

trying to be a chauvinist in is security. if she gets that is happy and playful and encouraging. if she doesn't get, that she can be other things. and a guy needs respect. he may get a job. if he doesn't get a job, he may become a scoutmaster or a little league coach. if you get that dance right between the husband and wife, some really great things happen. if you get a little off because the husband, the bible says the man has to love the wife as christ loved the church, isn't doing what he ought to be doing on that front, again, some things can go wrong. i would blame myself. in other words, the things i've learned, i said how do i be a better person going forward. i think there were a number of missteps from my end. >> having got it wrong in your marriage, do you feel like you have learned enough from that whole experience, and the bruising exposure and scandal to get it right now? >> i would hope so. >> are you happy in yourself now, do you think? >> oh, yeah. i said to a friend, i have probably have more to offer as a human being than i've ever had in my life. but i probably have a smaller canvas to paint on.

and i accept that as a reality. i don't know where life would have gone, but it could well have been that i would have been in the presidential mix just because i cared deeply about these ideas and have long been talking about them. i can't control that part. all i can control now is, you know, what do you do going forward. i think that's the challenge of every one of our lives. >> going to take a short break and come back and talk to you about the life, the low-key life you've had since all this blew up. what have you been doing, what it's been like, emotionally, physically, getting to a stage now where you feel empowered enough to come back out and talk about it.

right now my special guest mark sanford. watching you there at your farm, south carolina. and pretty remote place to disappear, i guess. what was it like for you just to vanish from the public eye, get away from the eye of the storm and find yourself in this kind of sanctuary, if you like? was it easy? did you feel lonely? how would you describe the experience? >> fabulous. you know, it's a family farm. i grew up there.

so all your sort of tom sawyer and huck finn adventures that you remember as a boy with your brothers and your sister were there. and so there are, you know, just an envelope, if you will, of inviting memories from your childhood. it's been a weird life. i get up early. i go for a swim in the river before sunrise. i watch the day come alive. i hammer and nails during the day. it's been therapeutic. >> at that moment as the sun comes up, you're on your own, you're watching the sun come up. you would have been in the old days getting ready for another busy day in politics, you know. in your head thinking you know what? i'm only a few steps away from a potential presidency run here. and now here you are on your own, out of that game, looking at the sun coming up. what are you thinking when you're there? >> i think that there is a tremendous value to the valleys of life.

that the football team that loses on friday night probably thinks a whole lot more of what they might get right or what they might do differently than the team that won. so for me it has been cathartic to go out and build things. built a bridge with the boys. built a little sort of shed, built a little hut, if you want to call it that. it's been cathartic. i think -- i said to a friend at one point i had gone out with a backhoe in front of this little barn that i had built where there were some stumps, pulled the stumps out, put them to the side, and going to burn them. and i said the beauty of this is once it's done, it's not like the next legislative body is going to come back and put the stumps back in. it's kind of done. so it's been rewarding in that sense. >> unlike most politics, you can actually get things done and they stay done. >> and that's been nice. it's been really, really nice. to have the uncluttered time with the boys. i think one of the problems of political life is that you're gone so much.

>> have you in an odd way had more time now to develop a better relationship with your sons than you may have done if you continued in the ever more punishing political world? >> they say so. they say oddly, because i get very sentimental, as i suspect divorced dads often do. and they're like dad, what are you talking about? we see you way more than we used to see you. no, no, no, you don't. no, you would have a speech, you would have a this, have a that. marshall and i spent a week and a half together working on the first building. and it was magnificent father-son time. that part has been neat. i think the reflection is important. i think that, again, in the valleys of life, you do a whole lot more soul-searching and thinking than you do when you're going from mountaintop to mountaintop. >> who in your family have been the real rocks of support outside of your sons? >> i've redeveloped a really neat relationship with my sister.

we had it a long time ago. but as you get busy with life, those things can sort of drift to the side. and we've developed a really neat relationship. my brother john and bill are both close. we took a neat trip together with the boys earlier this summer. so, you know, my mom is magnificent. just as i guess the case with any mom, unconditional. >> my mother has always been incredibly supportive of me through thick and thin. how did your mother react to the whole scandal? what did she say to you? >> i mean, the obvious in terms of i'm disappointed and here is why. but i think significantly, the but part, which is i still love you, and i love you unconditionally. >> which is a pretty powerful endorsement to have, isn't it? >> important one. >> let's take another short break. i suppose the obvious question when we come back is you're doing interviews again. you're very prominent in your political views now about what is going on.

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so how did this happen? mark sanford we got reaction on twitter tonight. people. some people criticizing you. i lived in columbia when mark sanford was governor. he's more human now than when he was governor. others saying, i'm impressed by his candor. others saying, is this the comeback? you must be tempted? >> no. my goal is, i want to begin the process of speaking out on things i've cared about for 20 years, that doesn't mean candidacy, but that means at some level having a voice on the direction of this country. because i think we're at a gut check moment in terms of what comes next. a little known scottish historian studies history for the whole of his life. the quote attributed to him is that democracy can't exist as a

permanent. it can only exist when the governors -- it's generally followed by dictatorship. the average age of the world's great civilizations have been 200 years. great courage to liberty. apathy to dependency. and from dependency back to bondage. if you look at where we are in terms of context, about 44% of all americans don't file tax returns about, 56% do. out of the 56% that do, 20% are net contributors to the system, and about 80% are net recipients. they may pay $3,000 in taxes, but they may get $12,000. >> if you had the power, what would you do to dramatically

reform the tax system, which would make a real difference in reducing america's debt? >> i don't think it's a question of the tax system. i think it's spending. you look at the first 100 years of this country. >> they can't just be cutting spending, can they? >> yes. >> in some states you have to bring in more revenues as well, don't you? >> it never was a personal household, if all they did was cut back on all their spending but didn't increase any kind of revenue. >> let's go back to -- >> how you develop a domestic household budget. >> how much are you spending relative to how much you spent before. if you look at the first 100 years of this country's existence, we spent 3% of gdp, 40% was going to defense. this is the end of a 50-year push where we've really moved upward in terms of overall spending in this country. we're now 25, 28% of gdp. i would argue in thomas freeman's flat world for us to

be really competitive, have you to compete with likes and a host of other places. being competitive -- and a bunch of other things is absolutely crucial. the cbo numbers right now are saying, we're going to move to about 33% of gdp. which is to say with all due respect to the mother countries, to europe, we're going to move to their way of growth. if you let the per capita income, we're at about 46,000, $44,000. if you look in europe, it's about 30. if you look around the world, it's closer to three, and china it's about nine. so you give up something as you begin to crowd out private investment and private capitalism. >> as you're speaking on this, i'm thinking this guy must be going back into politics. he's bored with his current circumstances. he's learned lessons. >> i have learned lessons that will last me the rest of my life. >> let's hold it there.

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>> the sinner and the sin, how do you feel about that? >> it's the challenge of faith and grace. >> do you have any plans to remarry? >> we'll see. >> that's not a denial. mr. governor? >> it's not an answer. >> it's a tantalizing. i would agree if you were a politician saying that about a policy, i would say it's definitely -- >> we'll see. >> would it be a nice ending to the saga for you? >> i think so. >> do you have -- you haven't popped the question yet? >> you have? >> no, you're going into -- again that personal sphere that out of respect for my boys -- >> it wouldn't be the most shocking thing we -- >> we'll see. >> it's been a pleasure. thank you very much. >> thank you. luck with everyth >> appreciate it. thank.