analysts say the afternoon recovery was fueled, in part, by indications that some members of the federal reserve board favor another round of u.s. treasury purchases to jump-start the economy. a little silver lining there, wolf. >> lots of work to do on the economy and jobs, jobs, jobs, as we like to say, jobs, the issue number one. kate, thanks very much. thanks for joining us in "the situation room." no recess for kate even though she's our congressional correspondent. thanks very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation room." for our international viewers, "world report" is next. in north america, "john king, usa" starts right now. i'm gloria borger, john king is off today. thanks for joining us on what turned out to be a very significant day on the campaign trail. mitt romney who has been taking a rather low-key approach to his republican opponent so far today decided to take some jabs at the man whose replaced him as the official front-runner, texas governor rick perry.

and he did it in perry's home state. >> thank you. thank you. >> during a speech to the veterans of foreign wars convention in san antonio, romney pointed to his own business resume and then took a shot at people he called career politicians. >> i'm a conservative businessman. i spent most of my life outside politics. dealing with real problems in the real economy. career politicians got us into this mess, and they simply don't know how to get us out. get ready for even more romney versus perry. late this afternoon we learned romney has changed his mind, and now has decided to attend a candidate forum on monday in south carolina. rick perry, of course, has already announced he'll be there. and here to talk over the latest developments, cnn political contributor and republican consultant alex castellanos who advised the romney campaign in 2007 and

2008. democratic pollster cornell belcher who worked for the obama campaign in 2008 and david frum, a former speechwriter for president george w. bush and now editor of "frum forum." bell, folks, i think it's game on. there was just a tweet minutes ago from #mittromney, saying i've spent most of my life outside politics dealing with real problems in the real economy. so, let me start with you, alex, has he decided that it's time to start taking on rick perry? >> i think he's decided it's time to start framing the election a little bit. and this is a gentle jab, you know, it's not certainly the kind of vicious, ruthless, negative attack ads that, oh, i used to make.lkk@ñcñ+:zlfcyywmse race as a choice. right now there'sd anti-washington sentiment, anti-political sentiment and the pol

world, whoqf@> a quick in, as sort of a campaign sort of insider who t for a living, that line i guarantee was tested.s4hz i mean, somewhere there was some polling going on and sort of the way he framed it -- >> you have to test the line, i spent most of my life outside politics? >> here's the thing, somewhere along the line they tested initial opening attacks on perry and this one probably registered best with svh$uu move. >> cornell would have charged him for it. >> why the romney camp is starting to get a little concerned. they'd been anointed as a front-runner for those in the media and the cnn/orc just recently showed that republicans' choice for nominee in 2012 without giuliani and sarah palin in the race has perry at 32%, romney at 18%, bachmann at 12%. so wrs, clearly perry takes fro bachmann, but romney is way down

there. >> yeah. the career politician line has a little bit more of a hook in it than it first appears. rick perry has been in politics full time since 1984. when he started he was a panelist person depending on his wife's salary -- >> people used to call it public service. >> somehow over that time he's managed to accumulate a considerable fortune through land speculation. that's the barb and hook that sets up the question. this guy who is a career politician, how did he get so rich? what i like what mitt romney said, though, was the second part of the statement. career politicians don't know how to get us out and i do. if he is willing to close with rick perry on some of the reckless thing that rick perry said about the federal reserve and things we need to do to make the economy recover, then mitt romney can truly be a jobs-recovery republican. >> but do you do it now or do you give him enough rope, as some people are saying, or advising romney to do, to let perry just get out there and make his own mistakes as you're pointing to?

alex? >> you do both very effectively, because when you plant a couple of seeds like this in the media, then you have programs like this and other commentators who will talk about it and carry the rest of the load, you know, the rest of the distance for you on something like this, so i think that -- it's effective. and, remember, they have seven debates coming up now between september 7th and december 10th i think not counting this south carolina forum, so there will be plenty of instances when they'll be tested, so that's when we'll really see who is the alpha dog and the strong leader over the next couple of months. now is right before the debates begin is a good time to plant the seeds. >> a couple quick points here, one thing as a pollster you can't look at this how he's gaining and sort of distancing himself from the pack and not actually take a swipe at him, because you just can't allow that to happen. however, i do want to sort of throw caution on the national numbers because quite frankly it's not a national election, it's a state-by-state election so what's happening in iowa and new hampshire and south carolina

is important. you talk about alpha dogs i think you are counting out michele bachmann way too early in this and i think she'll do really well in iowa and really well in south carolina. >> i think there's an issue, though, of toughness when you talk about a presidential candidate, and at some point you have to get comparative if you're in a -- if you're in a large field. and so the question is, does romney have to prove that he's tougher by taking on perry directly at -- >> no. >> -- some point or should he sit back and say i'm the electable ones? >> the winners don't do that. especially in republican primaries, george w. bush never got tough with his opponents and ronald reagan, he pushed back in various ways with the face-to-face confrontation. what mitt romney needs to keep doing is pounding away on this point that he has workable ideas for jobs and recovery, and rick perry's ideas will make things worse, you start tightening the money supply now and the various types of approaches he's talked

about -- nostrums he's talked about. >> social security, for example, a huge issue. rick perry wrote about social security in his book. there's lots of talk that he may be opposed to it or at least for means testing which means making the wealthy pay more, i mean, that could be a real achilles' heel for him. >> i think the republicans have decided if we lose to obama, we lose the country, so we want an electable candidate, we want somebody to beat obama and that's the imperative. and if rick perry begins to scare seniors and independents by attacking social security, if he begins to scare soccer moms by going off the rails and saying some irresponsible things now and then, if he begins to look like a candidate that can't compete in a general, that's a risk to him. to your point, about getting tougher, sometimes you don't have to be tougher, sometimes you have to be stronger and more mature. one of the things romney has to do in the debates coming up, he has to be unflappable, cool mitt

romney, because right now the conditi country is in a crisis. if he can go through the debates and not flinch and hold his ground, let perry run a little bit and see if anger beats maturity. >> well, there is something to the question of these debates because people look at candidates in comparison to the people they're standing next to, and cornell, you know, this happened to barack obama, right? i mean, when he got into those debates, he started out not doing so well. then he found his footing, and then suddenly people saw him as presidential that could happen with rick perry. we haven't seen him -- >> i don't think you -- i don't think you can win it in a debate, but i certainly think you can lose it in a debate. i think tim pawlenty was this year's showing of that where he didn't at all look strong and decisive in that debate. i think a lot of campaigns we go into it thinking don't get hurt in this debate, you know, don't -- the last thing you want to do is get hurt in this debate.

i think romney will go into the debates when he's down it will be interesting if he goes in the philosophy of don't getting hurt like he did the first debate, where he went in not getting hurt and he'll be fine, but with perry rising in the numbers like that, i think he'll probably have to take a different strategy. >> what does the quick rise have to tell you? obviously the media is talking about rick perry all the tile, obviously this is an unsettled, very unsettled, race, but is there something else in these numbers? >> there's been a large gap for the not mitt romney. mitt romney who has -- was a -- the alternative last time, was the second-place finish, the classic republican, the second choice for next time. there's a gap for somebody that's not him, because he supported extending health care to everybody, because i think a lot of republicans think he may not fully believe all of the things that republicans didn't used to believe but have convinced themselves in the past three years. of course, that makes him probably the strongest general election candidate, but are

republicans in the mood for that or do they want him to express intense emotions? >> the reasons i think, though, there's been the vacuum and the gap because a lot of voters still don't think they know who mitt romney is and what he's for. >> they don't. >> that's why perry in a way may be a godsend for mitt romney. mitt romney needs to beat someone to become someone and that's going to -- if he can do that, he'll be stronger in a general election and if he can't, rick perry's going to be the nominee. >> what do you think -- and let me ask all of you folks because you've been involved in campaigns and worked with politicians. let me just show you this bar graph. we were looking at it today. so interesting. lead newsmakers between the week of august 22nd to 28th, compiled by pew research, gadhafi, 58%. barack obama, 39%. steve jobs, 19%. dominique strauss-khan still in the news, 15%. and rick perry, right there with 14%. >> where is beyonce? >> where is beyonce? and so -- and where's mitt

romney? so, is this something at this stage of the campaign where you're saying rick perry is sucking all the oxygen? is that good or bad? >> the worst thing mitt romney can do is showing weakness by flailing around and changing what he's doing. he's showing nice subtle differences and planned for the debates. so far be the jobs maker. david is exactly right. be the jobs maker and explain to him that the people got us into this mess can't get us out. >> it shouldn't bother romney? >> he's raising a lot of money and rick perry will have to do it all over again in an environment where campaign contributions are restricted unlike texas. >> and it's a long haul. the thing won't be decided in the next couple of months. >> you bet. you'll be with us. >> i will be with you. >> and you'll be with us for the next block, so stay with us. because while mitt romney and rick perry have been going after one another, there's one thing they agree on, and that is what

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a new cnn/orc poll shows a majority of americans approve of the president's handling of the crisis in libya. that number certainly does not include the republican presidential candidates. today, for example, mitt romney

accused the president of believing america should become a, quote, lesser power. >> and that flows to the conviction that if we're weak, that other tyrants will decide -- or that the tyrants will decide to be weak as well. that if we could just talk more, engage more, pass more u.n. resolutions, that peace would somehow break out. that may be what they think at the harvard faculty lounge, but it's not what you know from the battlefield. >> and republican consultant alex castellanos, democratic pollster cornell belcher and former bush speechwriter david frum still are with us. ouch, not so veiled reference to barack obama. but can republicans have it both ways, alex? let me start with you on this, because they're saying we need to cut spending even on wars, but on the other hand, the strategy of working with other countries, working through the united nations, spending less money is not good enough? >> there's -- there's a schism

in the republican party right now. there's an element of the party, a nativist element that thinks we're overextended and we need to pull back, and there's another element that believes that barack obama waited way too long in libya, that he turned a ten-minute problem into a multi-month problem that when freedom is under assault, we should go in there -- >> and that would be john mccain. >> and we should have fixed it. nothing unites people of earth like a threat from mars, that's barack obama and that's spending and that's an economic in a meltdown. >> does it matter in the republican party? >> this is really not a promising line of attack for republicans. the truth is there's a lot more continuity than discontinuity -- >> right. >> -- between the foreign policies of george bush and barack obama. ironically i think this is a problem with his left flank with disaffected liberals who say started with two wars and now we have three. guantanamo still open. almost all of the measures that were instituted by the bush/cheney administration for domestic security, still there

it's a left flank problem and in many ways if republicans want to, they can congratulate barack obama for recognizing the error of his campaign and have the wisdom to come around and endorse the wisdom of what george bush and dick cheney and the more you drive a wedge -- >> cornell, that hurts him with his base. >> on the left there's the idea that it's been problematic because we still are in afghanistan to a certain extent, we're just beginning to pull out of the war in iraq, so it has been a problem on the left. i'm with david on this. if this is what the republicans want to talk about sortve, you know, bring it on, because every time they are talking about this or that, they're not talking about unemployment and -- >> very quickly, i want to go to something that rick perry said at the same convention in texas because it gives you an idea of trying to have it both ways. just listen -- >> i do not believe that america should fall subject to a foreign policy of military adventurism. we should only risk shedding american blood and spending american treasure when our vital

interests are threatened. at the same time, we must be willing to act when it is time to act. we cannot concede the moral authority of our nation to multilateral debating societies. >> hello, i must be going. >> right. >> that's having it both ways. it really is. >> when is it time to act? >> well, that's what he left open here, you know, you know, he -- republicans -- >> is this a new candidate or is it an unformed foreign policy or is it just a mistake or -- >> no, that's trying to have everything. and, you know, republicans have the same luxury barack obama had last time, when you're running against an unpopular president all you have to do is be the alternative. you put the spotlight on him and that's when rick perry -- >> not when you're in a primary. >> that's being mesmerized by the mother lode of ron paul, they are the most compact voters inside the republican primary process, they may not be big but

they're big and intense, so far they're bound to ron paul but if anything were to happen to him or as the primary process goes forward, i think it's a dog whistle to that group of voters. perry wants them, it won't go to mitt romney for sure. >> is that something that romney should or could powunce on righ now? >> let me step back, and when you talk about american voters about why they are so cynical about politics and washington that's a prime example of the clip. there you have a politician saying both things, you can't trust what's going on in washington, you can't believe that they won't say whatever they need to say whenever they need to say it and that's a prime example of it. >> which is where romney started the debate today, i'm a business guy, i'm not a politician that's part of the problem, but i think you'll see romney talk a whole lot more talking about economics instead of foreign policy. >> you'll hear all the candidates talking about it including barack obama, but, again, it's his story that he's got to turn into a good one. >> i think it's a good story, three dictators going down

without spending billions of dollars and lives. >> but where's my job? >> that's right. thank you, all, for being with us. and we'll have you back again soon to talk about this. and tonight there's a new deadline and a new death toll in libya. we'll get the latest in a minute. as well as meet a teenage girl who says she was forced to become one of moammar gadhafi's executioners. i'm good about washing my face. but sometimes i wonder... what's left behind? [ female announcer ] new purifying facial cleanser from neutrogena naturals. removes 99% of dirt and toxins without dyes, parabens, or harsh sulfates. so skin feels pure and healthy. [ female announcer ] new from neutrogena naturals. excuse me? my grandfather was born in this village. [ automated voice speaks foreign language ] [ male announcer ] in here, everyone speaks the same language.

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today a libyan rebel commander told cnn at least

50,000 people civilians as well as fighters have died in libya's six-month civil war, and the death toll may go even higher soon. today, the rebels set a saturday deadline for pro-gadhafi forces to give up or else. cnn's fred pleitgen is in misrata for us tonight. fred, what does or else mean? what would they do if there's no surrender? >> reporter: well, i was on the front line quite close, gloria, earlier today, and folks there on the front line on the rebel side were tells us that all-out would mean an all out attack on the city of cert, and it would come to the western town of cert and the eastern town of cert, and they are coming from benghazi, you have 100 gun tanks ready to advance on cert if the negotiations don't come through. the latest i am hearing from the

transition national council that is, of course, the rebel government they say at this point there are negotiations going on with the tribes of cert including the tribe of moammar gadhafi himself, and that those negotiations at this point in time don't seem to be getting anywhere, gloria. >> so, do they think that at some point they're actually going to search and find moammar gadhafi if they defeat enough of his forces? >> reporter: well, it's certainly something that they're hoping for, but they're not really certain that they're going to find him in the town of cert. many of the guys i spoke to on the front line believe he didn't actually flee to cert, he might be somewhere else, southeast of tripoli, some also believe he might be outside the country, but really at this point in time it is anybody's guess. but that certainly still is their main focus is to try to find moammar gadhafi, but at the same time of course at some point in time they'll have to try to pull the country together again and a bloody invasion of the town of cert really wouldn't do very much to forward that --

what they're trying to achieve there, so certainly that's something there that the guys on the front lines are telling me as well, they say they really don't want to invade the town of cert, they've had enough bloodshed and have their guys lose limbs and be maimed, they want to get it over as fast as possible and they really hope the negotiations move forward. but at the same time they say if they get the order, then they're going to move forward on moammar gadhafi's hometown, gloria. >> thanks very much, fred pleitgen in misrata. thanks for being with us. and every day brings new details of atrocities committed by the gadhafi regime. today cnn's arwa damon met a 19-year-old girl who says she was sexually assaulted by one of gadhafi's commanders and then forced to become an executioner. >> reporter: she now lies in a hospital bed with an armed rebel guard out front. she doesn't want us to show her face. she admits she murdered 11 rebels, all prisoners of the gadhafi regime.

"they brought one person in at a time, and they said shoot him," she tells us. "there was someone on either side of me and one behind, and they all said if you don't shoot, we will shoot you." she speaks haltingly. often falling into a tortured silence. "i would turn my head away and shoot. and then i saw the blood dripping. it just kept flowing." >> arwa damon joins us now from tripoli. arwa, that's such a horrific story at all levels. are her captives at all sympathetic to the fact that she was doing this after being raped and upon threat of death? >> reporter: you know, gloria, a number of the rebels who were there at the hospital did appear to be taking pity on her, as did many of the doctors, believing that she had been manipulated by the gadhafi regime, that she was just a victim of this horrific

government that they had been subjected to for decades. that being said, the rebels do plan on having her stand trial. >> and so what could happen to her, arwa, if they did put her on trial? >> reporter: well, for that to first of all take place, it would, of course, mean that the entire justice establishment would need to be rebuilt, as do many of the institutions here. but the rebel leadership has been saying that they will be holding fair trials for those who they do choose to take to court. they have also been speaking about the need for reconciliation and forgiveness, so when it comes specifically to her case, it could potentially go either way. the doctors say that for her to overcome this kind of a trauma, she's going to need severe psychological help. she's going to need emotional and family support, and those are things that are currently lacking for her right now, but it just gives you an indication of the many problems and issues facing this country in the

future because hers by no means is an isolated case, gloria. >> and, arwa, i have to ask you about the situation in tripoli. u.n. secretary general said 60% is without water and sanitation. how desperate a situation is it there? >> reporter: well, it's pretty serious. i mean, it could potentially causeall health crisis. but the gadhafi loyalists seemed to have shut off one of the water supplies to the capital. and it seems to be bad because of the ongoing water shortage. and they need to get the pumps up and going. it's not only a water shortage, it's a food shortage as well. there are a number of international agencies trying to rally to get the basic commodities to the capital, before it spreads to be something that could be quite, quite severe. >> arwa damon, thanks very much

for being with us tonight. and up next, who would control syria's large stockpile of chemical weapons if the government fails? we'll have the details.

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what should have been a day of festivals and celebration turned bloody in syria today. activists in several cities report security forces firing on crowds that gathered for prayers marking the endpc+-ñ of the ram fast. at least seven people were

killed. there's also a complication in the international effort to push syrian strong man bashar al assad out of power, his chemical weapons. cnn pentagon current chris lawrence is here to tell us more. chris, just how large is syria's stockpile of chemical weapons? >> well, gloria, by most estimates syria has one of the largest stockpile of chemical weapons in the world, if not the largest. whereas we were concerned about libya having maybe ten tons of mustard gas, most experts believe syria could have upwards of thousands of tons of these chemical weapons such as vx and sarin. these are such viral agents that even just a few drops can kill a man, sarin, for example, was used in that 1995 attack on the tokyo subway, killed 13 people, made about 1,000 more people sick. so, these are very, very vile agents and there's a lot of them

in syria. >> so, chris, what's the major fear here, that president assad will use it on the protesters, or that the protests are actually occurring near where the stockpiles are? >> that's it. some of the location of the protests, places like hama, latakia, these are sites where some of the chemical weapons are stored. i spoke with an official who said, look, syria has no incentive to sell the chemicals to terrorists. they see it right now as a deterrent to israel's nuclear capability. they've never used them and given them to groups like hamas and hezbollah that they've been affiliated with. the fear from u.s. officials is if the assad regime collapses, that, you know, unrest and the confusion that criminals or even desperate elements, rogue elements of the assad regime, may take advantage of that to try to take some of these

weapons. you know, recently president barack obama called on bashar al assad to step down, but the harsh reality of this is the chemical weapons have been safe while they've been in his control. >> yeah. and we don't know whose hands they could get into next. chris lawrence -- >> yep. >> -- thanks so much. >> you're welcome. "ac360" thoik nderson coope coming up at the top of the hour and anderson is here with a preview. >> we're looking at breaking news about tropical storm irene, it's affecting millions of people, new jersey and vermont still have not seen the worst of the flooding and the flooding has been bad in those areas as rivers continue to crest after the storm. late word this evening is residents in at least two towns in new jersey were given mandatory evacuation orders today. cnn's mary snow is there and watched as dozens of residents were forced to evacuate. we'll bring you the very latest from new jersey. you were talking about syria. we are tackling syria, where syrians were supposed to be

celebrating the end of ramadan, instead a lot found themselves caught up in peaceful demonstrations, demonstrations that quickly turned deadly. we'll speak to one man inside the country who tells us his people are suffering and he wants the world to know what's happening. >> we are suffering from -- from the army and the missiles and from the arresting, from the killing. we don't need food. we don't need water. we don't need money. we only need freedom. we are looking for our freedom and we are demonstrating peacefully to get our freedom. >> we'll also talked to professor ajami about syria. and the latest from aruba, martin savidge is there, investigating the death of robyn gardner. there's a new report from abc. that the prime suspect in her

disappearance gary giordano had a cut on his throat shortly after she disappeared. we'll talk about the latest details. and we'll talk with congressman ron paul about his belief about the problems with fema and whether fema should be eliminated, is that the right thing to do? that and the ridicu-list at the top of the hour. >> it will be interesting to hear what he has to say. thanks, anderson. and tonight in washington we're getting new details about the jobs program that president obama is set to announce. our chief white house court is here next. and cleaning up intake valves. so when you fill up at an exxon or mobil station, you can rest assured we help your engine run more smoothly while leaving behind cleaner emissions. it's how we make gasoline work harder for you. exxon and mobil.

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the white house is drop hints about the jobs program president obama's getting ready to reveal. and today the president himself turned up the heat on congress which is going to have to pass it. >> we've got to break the gridlock in washington that's been preventing us from taking the action we need to get this country moving. that's why next week i'll be speaking to the nation about a plan to create jobs and reduce our deficit. a plan that i want to see passed by congress. we've got to get this done. >> cnn chief white house correspondent jessica yellin is picking up new details about the president's jobs push. jessica, what are they saying over there? are they going to go big or are they going to go small?

>> well, in their view it would be big because it would be a true effort to stimulate jobs growth, so the kinds of ideas i'm hearing about, gloria, include measures that would, for example, extend the payroll tax cut that already exists for employees, so that we already have, but then also extend a payroll tax cut for employers to encourage them specifically to hire new workers, maybe even give them a new tax break if they hire people who are currently unemployed for six months or more, for example. one idea that a lot of democrats and outside policymakers really like is this idea of creating new funding to re -- to renovate dilapidated public schools across the country, so that's sort of investing in some of our infrastructure in a sense, rebuilding in your community, creating jobs at the same time and helping education. and then there's some talk about jobs training programs for the long-term unemployed that lets them keep their unemployment insurance at the same time that they're getting some jobs

training. i should make clear, all this comes from outside the white house. those who were talking inside, they won't confirm anything on the record. >> well, and jessica, of course, there's the question of what congress is going to do. >> right. >> because they don't want to spend any money or at least republicans are very reluctant to spend money. >> right. so, there are two things. one is the democrats are making it clear they're not going to take this as one big package, introduce it and try to vote on it. they would individually take pie pieces of it and do something with it if they do anything at all. the other is what you just said, there's not a lot of expectation in this town that this will pass. the white house says that what they plan to do is separately recommend spending cuts as part of the president's recommendation to the supercommittee, spending cuts that would offset any new costs in the jobs plan, so it would ultimately be revenue neutral. but you can just see republicans rolling their eyes at that already, which is one of the reasons a lot of people don't see this getting a lot of traction in town, gloria. >> exactly, jessica, thanks so

much. and just how dire is the country's jobs picture? in july, just over 63% of the men in this country had a job of any kind, that's full or part time. bloomberg "business week" reports that's close to the lowest point since 1948. and with us now, former laker secretary robert reich who served in bill clinton's administration and is now a professor at the university of california at berkeley and in new york john fun, senior editor of the conservative magazine, "the american spectator." bob reich, let me get right to you. i know you think the president needs to go big. you just heard what jessica yellin was saying that it's unlikely big could get passed. so, why should he do anything at all? >> well, very good question, gloria. the real choice, and this has been the debate in the white house is my understanding, the real choice is a bunch of policy initiatives that sound

completely reasonable such as jessica was talking about a moment ago, that may one or two particularly if they're tax cuts have a chance of getting through a republican congress. but really are small compared to the magnitude of the problem. 25 million americans right now who are unemployed or underemployed who are looking for full-time jobs and as you said a record number of men who are not employed, or alternatively go big and maybe say to the congress, the republican congress, that's okay, i don't expect you to go along with this. i'd like you, i'll fight for this, but i'll take it to the american people and run on this as part of my platform in the election. we do need at least in the short term a major jobs program and it is consistent, entirely consistent, with long-term budget deficit reduction. that's the choice it looks like from what i've heard and from what jessica's reporting, the president is choosing the former. >> is there any area in which the republicans and the president can actually work

together? one would think it might be in their own self-interest to get something done and create jobs? >> sure. and i think we can learn from the four previous failed stimulus packages one from president bush, three from president obama. and i think what we can learn is, that the president is getting part of the message. for example, the payroll tax cut. he may, if this report is accurate, actually recognize that the payroll tax cut on employers does retard job creation. that's been something conservatives have been saying for a long time. for the other components, look, the president admitted there were no shovel-ready jobs which was one of the reasons the stimulus program failed. now apparently he wants to go back and refurbish school buildings, it may be good public policy, but it won't create jobs. secretary reich presided over 190 federal jobs programs in the labor department, some may be good, but it doesn't necessarily convince me that any new job training programs that may be unproven may really save the jobs problem in the short term.

>> what do you say to that? >> john fund makes a good point. we've obviously not tackled the jobs problem, it's much bigger than any of us thought, the stimulus program of 2008-2009, it was far too small relative to the size of the falloff that we now know, the consumer demand and the contraction of the economy and plus the fact that states and localities were busy cutting their budgets and cutting their payrolls at the same time. >> are we doomed? are you saying we're kind of doomed to doing nothing until after the election? >> i hope that's not the case, gloria. i think that the real question is, if the president does anything shouldn't he do something that is up to the size and magnitude of the problem? and if it is up to the size and magnitude of the problem, how in the world does he get it through republican congress except by mobilizing the public, using the bully pulpit and basically rounding up enough votes? i think that is what he needs to do. >> there is one other option. the president has created a lot

of uncertainty in the economy, the national federation of independent business, the business roundtable says the single biggest reason we have $2 trillion sitting on the sideline is the regulatory uncertainty, dodd-frank or other things that people are unsure of what the future will be. >> you can't do it right now -- >> you can. the president can say in addition to the jobs programs and the payroll tax cut, we'll have a regulatory freeze and i'll revisit every one of these regulations. i'll try to inject some certainty in the economic decision-making problems the companies face. >> what about that? you give a little on regulations? >> well, undoubtedly, you know, we should get rid of regulations that don't work. after we have seen a year of the bp oil spill and mining disasters and wall street, you know, two years ago, three years ago exploding. i don't think we want to get rid of all health, safety,

environmental, and small investor regulations. i don't think john is suggesting that -- >> then why mention it? >> let's absolutely get rid of -- >> so you on regulation -- >> wait a minute, if i can just finish the point. businesses are not hiring and they're sitting on $2 trillion of cash because there are not customers. consumers are workers. workers are consumers. if workers are worried about their jobs, if their wages are dropping, if their benefits are disappearing, they're not going to buy. >> bob reich, you'll have to get the last word. robert reich and john fund, thanks very much for being with us tonight. >> thanks, gloria. and in his new new book, dy writes political battles are messy, shrill and sometimes cruel. opens its doors or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business -- it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities, so we're helping them

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as the tea party turns into the ultimate republican power broker, they're willing to do battle on the spending issue. the latest must-read for political junkies is out today. by mid afternoon, dick cheney's "in my time" was amazon's number two best selling book behind the help. by the way, cheney says he wrote it without help from former president bush. >> i did not cooperate or coordinate on our books. he wrote his book. i wrote my book. i felt strongly that i wanted to write what i remembered about

these events and that's the way both of us functioned. >> in another interview, cheney predicted his book would have heads exploding all over washington. cnn's senior political analyst david gergen has seen plenty of explosive tell-alls during his time, advising four u.s. presidents. thanks so much for being with us. are you surprised that former vice president cheney has written a book with such candor describing how he disagreed on policy with people in the bush administration? criticizing some of his former colleagues? >> i'm surprised, i'm not surprised at one thing. i'm not surprised at all that he was candid. dick cheney, that has been his trademark for a number of years and he wanted to tell it straight. i am surprised that he took some shots at people high up. condi rice, george tenet, for example. and that's typically not done by

vice presidents or presidents. it is not a time for score settling and i think that is-the only thing you can say in his defense is he had a lot of scores to settle. he had been beaten up a lot. so i guess there is a reason why liz, who worked with him, his daughter, probably persuaded him to do some of that. i'm not surprised at the candor. i am surprised at the shots. >> let's talk about that score settling. i want to read you something that he wrote about colin powell. he said, quote, i was particularly disappointed in the way powell handled policy differences. time and again i heard he was opposed to the war in iraq. indeed, i continue to hear it today. but never once in any meeting did i hear him voice objection. when president bush after his re-election in 2004 accepted powell's resignation, i thought it was for the best. does colin powell have a right to be pretty upset at dick cheney? >> absolutely, of course.

he basically, the vice president accused the secretary of state of basically playing outside the lines. that he was taking his criticisms of people outside, undermining the president. from colin powell's point of view, he would interpret that as an accusation of disloyalty. there have been a lot of accusations about colin powell playing on a separate team but he did have honest differences and did he express them to the president. on one occasion by colin powell's own account, he did go to the president to make an argument about, do you really want to do this? but listen, i think this is obviously selling books. there were huge differences and some poisonous relationships. it is said that that very close relationship that colin powell once had with dick cheney did deteriorate so badly. >> it isn't only colin powell. he walked the about his policy differences with the president

of the united states, particularly regarding the pardon of scooter libby. his former top aide. and we knew that there were differences, but to hear it from dick cheney himself about the president takes it one step further. i want you to listen to something he said on the "today" show this morning. >> i felt very strongly that scooter was not treated fairly. i don't think an indictment was appropriate. scooter was the one ultimately who was charged, not with leaking but with allegations about misconduct during the course of the investigation. so i really think he was badly treated. i thought he deserved a pardon. the president disagreed. >> so is there a difference between a memoir and a kiss and tell? >> on that one, i don't think that was kiss and tell. it has been widely known. i think he was being candid about it. in full disclosure, i worked closely with dick cheney in the 1970s in the ford

administration. liked him, respected him and continue to believe he is an honest man. we have sharp policy disagreements today as we've each gotten older, but i thought on that one, about scooter libby, he just had flat out a disagreement with the president. he was honest about it. he didn't take any shots at the president. >> he recounted a story in which he said he wanted to bomb syria. and e else, nobody else raised their hands. are those discussions, things that he ought to be talking about? particularly if the president did not talk about it in his memoir? >> that's an interesting hard question. look, i -- bill took me under his wing a long time ago and convinced me, there does come a time for historical differences when insiders should be permitted, and should be encouraged to tell us what happened. so historians can, and