just right the rare phenomenon of a naked fat man. >> how long have you been out here? >> we've been out a couple of hours getting the building clear. >> cold out here. whoo! >> some people are just out of their minds, you know? what are you going to do? it's nuts. >> i love that he made a loop and went back around. for the record, he was the on who said "it's nuts" not me. it looked like that was going the end of it. as any meteorologist will tell you, when there is a rare winter girth quake there will probably be an aftershock. >> how long have you been out? what are you doing to stay warm? >> staying warm is a good question. >> i'm sorry. i can't do this. thanks a lot, man. thanks for being out here. >> oh, neither snow nor rain will keep a certain kind of person from making an ass of himself on live television. but it till secure him a spot on the ridiculist. hey, that's it for 360. thanks for watching. john king usa starts now. see you tomorrow.

i'm gloria borger. john king is off today. thanks for joining us on what turns out to be a very significant day on the campaign trail. mitt romney who has been taking a rather low-key approach to his republican opponents so far today decided to take some jabs at the man who's replaced him as the official frontrunner, texas governor rick perry. and he did it in perry's home state. >> thank you. >> during a speech to the veterans of foreign wars convention in san antonio, romney pointed to his own business resume' and then took a shot at people he called career politicians. >> i'm a conservative businessman. i spent most of my life outside politics, dealing with real problems in the real economy. career politicians got us into this mess, and they simply don't know how to get us out. >> get ready for even more romney versus perry.

late this afternoon we learned romney has changed his mind and now has decided to attend a candidate forum on monday in south carolina. rick perry, of course, has already announced he'll be there. and here to talk over the latest developments, cnn political contributor and republican consultant alex castellanos who advised the romney campaign in 2007 an 2008. democratic pollster cornell belcher who worked for the obama campaign in 2008, and david fromm, a former speech writer for former president george w. bush and now editor of fromm forum.com. well, folks, i think it's game on. there was just a tweet minutes ago from @ mitt romney saying "i have spent most of my life outside of politics dealing with real problems in the real economy. so let me start with you, alex. has he decided that it's time to start taking on rick perry? >> i think he's decided it's time to start framing the

election a little bit. and it's a gentle jab. it's just not certainly the kind of vicious, ruthless, negative attack ads that oh, i used to make [ laughter ] >> but no, beginning to define the race. right now there's so much anti-washington sentiment, anti-political sentiment. and drawing that line between the business world and the political world, who do you count on to make jobs is probably a very effective strategy. >> and a quick in as sort of a campaign sort of insider who does this for a living, that line, i guarantee you, was tested. i mean, somewhere there was some polling going on the way he framed it. >> do you have to test that line? >> here's the thing. somewhere along the line, they tested a lot of sort of initial opening attacks on perry. and this one probably registered best with some voters they had to move. >> let me just show you and we'll go to david on this why the romney camp is starting to get a little concerned. they have been appointed as the frontrunner by those of us in

the media, of course. and our cnn/orc poll just recently showed that republican's choice for nominee in 2012, without giuliani and sarah palin in the race, has perry at 32%, romney at 18, bachmann at 12%. so clearly perry takes from bachmann, but romney is way down there. >> yeah. the career politician line has a little bit more of a hook in it than it first appears. rick perry has been in politics full time since 1984. when he started he was a panelist person depending on his wife's salary. >> people used to call that public service. >> somehow over that time he has imagined to accumulate a very considerable fortune through land speculation. and that is the barb and hook. it sets up the question, this guy who was a career politician, how did he get so rich. what i like about what mitt romney was the second part of the statement. career politicians don't know how to get us out and i do.

if he is willing to close with rick perry on some of the reckless things he's said about the federal reserve, the things we need to do to make the economy recover, then mitt romney can truly be a jobs and recovery republican. >> but do you do it now or do you give him enough rope, as some people are saying or advising romney to do, to let perry just get out there and make his own mistakes as you're pointing to, alex? >> you do both very effectism. because when you plant a couple of seeds like this in the media, then you have programs like this and other commentators who will talk about it and carry the rest of the load the rest of the distance for you on something like this. so i think that it's effective. and remember, they have seven debates coming up now between september 7th and december 10th. i think not counting this south carolina forum. so they're going to be plenty of instances where we're going to be tested. and that's when we're going to really see who's the alpha dog, the strong leader i think over these next couple of months. now is right before those debates begin is a good time to plant those seeds.

>> a couple of quick points here, as a pollster you can't look at how he's gaining and sort of distancing himself from the pack and not actually take a swipe at him. because you just can't allow that to happen. however, i do want to put some caution on the national numbers. because quite frankly it's not a national election. it's going to be a state by state election. right now what's happening in iowa, new hampshire and south carolina is important. and the interesting thing is, we talk about alpha dogs, i think you guys are counting out michele bachmann way too early in this. i think she's going to do really well in iowa and south carolina. >> i think there's an issue, though, of toughness when you talk about a presidential candidate. and at some point you have to get comparative. if you're in a large field. and so the question is, does romney have to prove that he's tougher by taking on perry directly at some point or should he sit back and say, i'm the electable one? >> the winners don't do that.

george w. bush didn't get tough with his opponents in 2000 and ronald reagan certainly never got tough with his opponents. he pushed back in various ways with face-to-face confrontation. what mitt romney needs to keep doing is pounding away on this point that he has workable ideas for jobs and recovery and rick perry's ideas will make things worse. you start tightening the money supply now and the various kind of approaches, nostrums he's talked about is going to make things worse. >> social security for example. a huge issue. rick perry wrote about social security in his book. there's lots of talk he may be opposed to it or at least for means testing which means making the wealthy pay more. that could be a real achilles heel for him. >> i think republicans have decided this year that if we lose to obama we lose the country. so we want an electable candidate. we want someone who can beat obama. that's the imperative. if rick perry begins to scare seniors and independents by attacking social security, if he begins to scare soccer moms by going off the rails and saying

somewhat irresponsible things now and then, if he begins to look like a candidate who can't compete in the general that's a risk for him. but to your point, gloria about getting tougher, sometimes you don't have to get tougher, you just have to be stronger and more mature. one of the things romney has to do in these debates coming up is he has to be unflappable, cool mitt romney. right now the country's in a crisis. it seems like washington is coming apart at the seams. if he can go through the next doe baits and not flinch and hold his ground, let perry run a little bit and see if anger beats maturity. >> there is something to the question of these debates, because candidates, people look at candidates in comparison to the people they're standing next to. and cornell, this happened with barack obama. right? when he got into those debates, he started out not doing so well. then he found his footing. and then suddenly people saw him as presidential. that could happen with rick perry. we haven't seen him.

>> i don't think you can win a debate but i think you can certainly lose it in a debate. i think tim pawlenty was this year's showing of that where he didn't at all look strong and decisive in that debate. i think a lot of campaigns we go into thinking don't get hurt in this debate. the last thing you want to do is to get hurt in this debate. i think romney's going to go into these debates when he's down. it will be interesting to see if he goes into that philosophy of don't getting hurt like i thought he did in the first debate. but with perry rising those numbers like that, i think he's probably going to have to take on a different strategy. >> but what does this quick rise tell you? obviously the media's talking about rick perry all the time. obviously this is a very unsettled race. but is there something else in these -- >> it tells you there has been throughout a large gap in the jaw for not mitt romney. mitt romney who was the

alternative last time who was the second place finisher, the classic republican second choice for next time, there is this gap for somebody who is not him because he supported extending healthcare to everybody, because i think a lot of republicans sense he may not fully believe all of the things that republicans didn't used to believe but have convinced themselves in the past three years. of course, that makes him probably the strongest general election candidate. but are republicans in the mood for that or do they want to express some intense emotions? >> the reason i think, though, is there's been that vacuum gap because a lot of voters still don't think they know who mitt romney is and what he's for. and does he have that strength. >> they don't. >> that's why perry in a way may be a god send for mitt romney. mitt romney needs to beat someone to become someone. and if he can do that he'll be stronger in a general election. and if he can't, rick perry can be nominated. >> let me ask all you folks because you've been involved in campaigns and worked with politicians. let me just show you this bar graph. we were looking at it today, so

interesting. lead newsmakers between the week of august 22nd to 28th compiled by pew research, gadhafi 58%, barack obama 39, steve jobs 19, dominique strauss-kahn still in the news, 15, and rick perry right there with 14. >> where's beyonce'? >> where's beyonce'? and where's mitt romney? so is this something at this stage in a campaign where you're saying, rick perry is sucking all the oxygen, is that good or bad? >> worst thing mitt romney could do right now is demonstrate weakness by flailing around, changing everything he's doing. he's beginning to draw some nice subtle differences, plan for these debates. but so far be the jobsmaker. david is exactly right. be the jobsmaker. explain that people who got us into this mess can't get us out. >> so it doesn't bother you. it shouldn't bother romney? >> he's working the back rooms, raising a lot of money. rick perry is going to have to do that all over again in a environment where campaign

contributions are restricted unlike texas. >> this thing won't be decided in the next couple of months. it's a long haul. >> and you'll be with us for it. >> i will be with you. >> and you're going to be with us for the next block. stay with us. while mitt romney and rick perry have certainly started going after one another we've been talking about, there's one thing they actually agree on and that's what they really don't like about barack obama. stay with with us. or the accolades. no, it was good because you told us so. the chevy model year wrap up. get in on our greatest model year yet. just announced -- celebrate labor day with an additional $500 bonus cash. with all other offers, including the all-star edition discount, that's a total value of $6,500. ♪ our greatest model year yet is wrapping up. whose non-stop day starts with back pain... and a choice. take advil now and maybe up to four in a day. or choose aleve and two pills for a day free of pain.

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a majority of americans approve the president's handling of the crisis in libya. that number certainly does not include the republican presidential candidates. today for example mitt romney accused the president of believing america should become a "lesser power". >> that flows from the conviction that if we're weak, that other tyrants will decide or that tyrants will decide to be weak as well. that if we could just talk more, engage more, pass more u.n. resolutions, that peace would somehow break out. that may be what they think at the harvard faculty lounge, but it's not what you know from the battlefield. >> and republican consultant alex castellanos, democratic

strategist cornell belcher and david frum are from us. not so veiled reference to barack obama. but can republicans have it both ways, alex? let me start with you on this. they're saying we need to cut spending even on wars. but on the other hand, the strategy of working with other countries, working through the united nations, spending less money is not good enough. >> there's a schism in the republican party right now. there is an element of the party that thinks we're overextended and we need to pull back. and there's another emt that thinks barack obama waited way too long in libya, that he turned a ten-minute problem into a multimonth problem. when freedom is under assault anywhere in the world we should go in there. >> that would be john mccain. >> and we should have fixed it. that is actually a tension but it doesn't matter because we're all united by something else. nothing united states the people from earth like a threat from mars. that's barack obama, that's spending, and that's an economy in a meltdown. >> does it matter in the republican party? >> this is really not a

promising line of attack for republicans. the truth is there's a lot more continuity than discontinuity between foreign policies of george bush and barack obama. ironically i think this is a problem for him on his left flank with disaffected liberals who say started with two wars, now we have three. guantanemo still open. almost all of the measures that were instituted by the bush/chaney administration for domestic security all still there. it's a left flank problem. in many ways, the more you congratulate obama for recognizing the error of his campaign and for having the wisdom to come around to endorse the wisdom of what george bush and dick chaney did, more you drive a wedge. >> cornell, that hurts him with his base. >> certainly on the left there's the ideal that has been problematic. we still are in afghanistan for to a certain extent. we're just beginning to pull out of the war in iraq. so it has been a problem. i'm with david on this. if this is what the republicans want to talk about, bring it on. because every time they're talking about this they're not

talking about unemployment or deficit. >> very quickly, i want to go to something that rick perry said at that same convention in texas because it gives you an idea of trying to have it both ways. just listen. >> i do not believe that america should fall subject to a foreign policy of military adventurism. we should only risk shedding american blood and spending american treasure when our vital interests are threatened. at the same time, we must be willing to act when it is time to act. we cannot concede the moral authority of of our nation to multilateral debating societies. >> hello. i must be going. >> that sounded both ways. >> so when is it time to act? >> well, that's what he left open here. >> is this a new candidate, or is this an unformed foreign policy? or is this just a mistake? >> no. that's trying to have everything.

>> yeah. >> and you know, republicans have the same luxury barack obama had last time. when you're running against an unpopular president, all you have to do is be the alternative. you put the spotlight on him. and that's what rick perry is doing. >> not in the primary, though. >> that's also being mesmerized by the mother lode of ron paul voters who are probably the most compact nugget of voters inside the republican primary process. they may not be big but they are there, they are intense. so far they're bound to ron paul. but if anything were to happen to him or as the primary process goes forward, i think that is a dog whis toll that group of voters perry wants them. they're not going to go to mitt romney for sure. >> is this something that romney could or should pounce on right now? >> let me step back and take a broader look at this. when you're talking to american voters about why they're so cynical about politics and what's going on in washington, i think that's a prime example of the clip. there you have a politician who's saying both things. sort of you can't trust what's going in washington. they will say whatever they need to say whenever they need to say

it. that is a prime example of it. >> where romney started the debate today, i'm a business guy, i'm not a politician who's been part of the problem. i think you're going to see romney talk a whole lot more about economics than foreign policy. >> you'll hear all the candidates try to talk about that including barack obama. but again it's his story that he's got to turn into a good one. >> i think he's got a pretty good story. three dictators going down without americans spending billions of dollars and losing thousands of lives. that's not a bad story. >> but where's my job? >> thank you all for being with us. we'll have you back again soon to talk about this and tonight, there's a new deed line and a new death toll in libya. we'll get the latest in a minute. as well as meet a teenage girl who says she was forced to become one of mohammed gadhafi's execution executioners.

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today a libyan rebel commander told cnn at least 50,000 people, civilians as well as fighters, have died in libya's six-month civil war. and the death toll may go even higher soon. today the rebels set a saturday deadline for pro-gadhafi forces to give up or else. cnn's fred pleitgen is in misrata for us tonight. fred, what does "or else" mean? what would they do if there's no surrender? >> reporter: well, it was on the frontline quite close to sirt earlier today. folks there who were on the frontline on the rebel side were

telling us that all out would be an all out assault on the town of sirt. it would come from the two sides, both here from west of the town of sirt and from the eastern town of sirt. those of course are forces that are coming from benghazi. so you have i would say about 100 gun trucks at least on this side that are ready to advance on the town of sirt if in fact these negotiations don't come through. the latest that i'm hearing from the transitional national council, that is of course the rebel government, is basically at this point there are negotiations going on with the tribe of sirt, including the tribe of muammar gadhafi himself and that those negotiations at this point in time don't seem to be getting anywhere, gloria. >> so do they think that at some point they're actually going to search and find muammar gadhafi if they defeat enough of his forces? >> reporter: well, it's certainly something that they're hoping for. but they're not really certain that they're going to find him in the town of sirt. many of the guys i spoke to on the frontline believe that he

didn't actually flee to sirt, that he might be somewhere else sort of southeast of tripoli. some also believe that he might be outside the country. but really at this point in time it is anybody's guess. but that certainly still is their main focus is to try to find muammar gadhafi. but at the same time, of course, at some point in time they're going to have to try to pull this country together again. a bloody invasion of the town of sirt really wouldn't do anything to forward what they're trying to achieve there. so certainly that's something that guys on the frontline are telling me as well. they say they really don't want to invade the town of sirt. they say they've had enough bloodshed so far, enough of their own guys die, lose limbs or get maimed. they want all of this to be over as fast as possible. they really hope that these negotiations move forward. but at the same time they say if they get the order then they are going to move forward on muammar gadhafi's hometown, gloria. >> thanks very much, fred pleitgen in misrata. thanks for being with us and every day brings new details of atrocities committed by the gadhafi regime. today cnn's arwa damon met a

19-year-old girl who said she was sexually assaulted by one of gadhafi's commanders and then forced to become an executioner. >> reporter: mansur now lies in a hospital bed with an armed rebel guard out front. she doesn't want us to show her face. she admits she murdered 11 rebels, all prisoners of the gadhafi regime. >> translator: they brought one person in at a time and they said shoot him, she tells us. there was someone on either side of me and one behind. and they all said, if you don't shoot, we will shoot you. >> she speaks haltingly, often falling into a tortured silence. >> translator: i would turn my head away and shoot. and then i saw the blood dripping. it just kept flowing. >> arwa damon joins us now from tripoli. arwa, that's such a horrific story at all levels.

are her captives at all sympathetic to the fact that she was doing this after being raped and upon threat of death? >> reporter: you know, gloria, a number of the rebels who were there at the hospital did appear to be taking pity on her, as did many of the doctors, believing that she had been manipulated by the gadhafi regime, that she was just a victim of this horrific government that they had been subjected to for decades. that being said, the rebels do plan on having her stand trial. >> and so what could happen to her, arwa, if they did put her on trial? >> reporter: well, for that to first of all take place, of course it would mean that entire justice establishment would need to be rebuilt, as do many of the institutions here. but rebel leadership has been saying that they will be holding fair trials for those who they do choose it take to court. they have also been speaking

about the need for reconciliation and forgiveness. so when it comes specifically to her case, it could potentially go either way. the doctors say that for her to overcome this kind of a trauma she's going to need severe psychological help, emotional and family support, and those are things that are currently lacking for her right now. but it just gives you an indication of the many problems and issues facing this country in the future. because hers by no means is an isolated case, gloria. >> are was, i have to ask you about the situation in tripoli. u.n. secretary general today said 60% of tripoli is without water and without sanitation. how desperate a situation is it there? >> reporter: well, it's pretty serious. i mean, it could potentially cause a severe health crisis. the issue is that gadhafi loyalists appear to have shut off one of the main water supplies to the capital, and it's a problem that's being compounded by the ongoing fuel shortages. the u.n. is planning on sending

water to the capital. the government is going to try to get fuel to the various pumps to try to get it up and going. it's not just a water shortage that is proving to be a problem, it's a food shortage as well. so there are a number of international agencies that are trying to rally to get basic commodities to the capital before this really spreads into something that could potentially be quite, quite severe. >> arwa damon, thanks so much for being with us tonight. and up next, who would control syria's large stockpile of chemical weapons if the government fails? we'll have the details in just a minute. [ male announcer ] this...is the network --

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what should have been a day of festivals and celebration turned bloody in syria today. activists in several cities report security forces firing on crowds that gathered for prayers marking the end of the ramadan fast. at least seven people were killed. there's also a complication in the international effort to push syrian strongman bashar al assad out of power, his chemical weapons. cnn correspondent chris lawrence is here to tell us more. chris, just how large is syria's stockpile of chemical weapons? >> reporter: gloria by most estimates syria has one of the largest stockpiles of chemical weapons in the world, if not the largest. whereas we were concerned about libya having maybe ten tons of mustard gas, most experts believe that syria could have

upwards of thousands of tons of these chemical weapons, things such as bx and seran. these are such viral agents that even just a few drops can kill a man. seran for example was used in that 1995 attack on the tokyo subway. killed 13 people, made about 1,000 more people sick. so these are very, very vile agents. and there are a lot of them in syria. >> so chris, what's the major fear here? that president assad will use it on the protestors? or that protests are actually occurring near where the stockpiles are? >> reporter: that's it. some of the location of the protests, places like hama, latakia, these are the sites where some of the chemical weapons are stored. i spoke with a u.n. official who said look, syria has no incentive to try to sell these chemical weapons to terrorists. they see them right now as a

deterrent to israel's nuclear capability. they've never used them or given them to groups like hamas and hezbollah that they've been affiliated with. the fear from u.s. officials is that if the assad regime collapses, that unrest and the confusion that criminals or even desperate elements, rogue elements of the assad regime, may take advantage of that to try to take some of these weapons. recently, president barack obama called on bashar al assad to step down. but the harsh reality of this is, the chemical weapons have been safe while they've been in his control. >> yeah. we don't know whose hands they could get into next. chris lawrence, thanks so much. tonight here in washington we're getting new details about the jobs program president obama's getting set to announce. our chief white house correspondent jessica yellin is here next. met an old man at the top asked him if he had a secret and the old man stopped and thought and said:

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>> the white house is dropping hints about the jobs program president obama is getting ready to reveal. today the president himself turned up the heat on congress which is going to have to pass it. >> we've got to break the gridlock in washington that's been preventing us from taking the action we need to get this country moving. [ applause ]

that's why next week i'll be speaking to the nation about a plan to create jobs and reduce our deficit. a plan that i want to see passed by congress. we've got to get this done. >> cnn chief white house correspondent jessica yellin is picking up new details about the president's jobs push. jessica, what are they saying over there? are they going to go big or are they going to go small? >> well, in their view it would be big because it would be a true effort to stimulate jobs growth, so the kinds of ideas i'm hearing about, gloria, include measures that would, for example, extend the payroll tax cut that already exists for employees, so that we already have, but then also extend a payroll tax cut for employers to encourage them specifically to hire new workers, maybe even give them a new tax break if they hire people who are currently unemployed for six months or more, for example. one idea that a lot of democrats and outside policymakers really

like is this idea of creating new funding to re -- to renovate dilapidated public schools across the country, so that's sort of investing in some of our infrastructure in a sense, rebuilding in your community, creating jobs at the same time and helping education. and then there's some talk about jobs training programs for the long-term unemployed that lets them keep their unemployment insurance at the same time that they're getting some jobs training. i should make clear, all this comes from outside the white house. those who were talking inside, they won't confirm anything on the record. >> well, and jessica, of course, there's the question of what congress is going to do. >> right. >> because they don't want to spend any money or at least republicans are very reluctant to spend money. >> right. so, there are two things. one is the democrats are making it clear they're not going to take this as one big package, introduce it and try to vote on it. they would individually take pieces of it and do something with it if they do anything at all. the other is what you just said, there's not a lot of expectation

in this town that this will pass. the white house says that what they plan to do is separately recommend spending cuts as part of the president's recommendation to the supercommittee, spending cuts that would offset any new costs in the jobs plan, so it would ultimately be revenue neutral. but you can just see republicans rolling their eyes at that already, which is one of the reasons a lot of people don't see this getting a lot of traction in town, gloria. >> exactly, jessica, thanks so much. and just how dire is the country's jobs picture? in july, just over 63% of the men in this country had a job of any kind, that's full or part time. bloomberg "business week" reports that's close to the lowest point since 1948. and with us now, former laker secretary robert reich who served in bill clinton's administration and is now a professor at the university of california at berkeley and in new york john fun, senior editor of the conservative magazine,

"the american spectator." bob reich, let me get right to you. i know you think the president needs to go big. you just heard what jessica yellin was saying that it's unlikely big could get passed. so, why should he do anything at all? >> well, very good question, gloria. the real choice, and this has been the debate in the white house is my understanding, the real choice is a bunch of policy initiatives that sound completely reasonable such as jessica was talking about a moment ago, that may one or two particularly if they're tax cuts have a chance of getting through a republican congress. but really are small compared to the magnitude of the problem. 25 million americans right now who are unemployed or underemployed who are looking for full-time jobs and as you said a record number of men who are not employed, or alternatively go big and maybe say to the congress, the republican congress, that's okay, i don't expect you to go along with this. i'd like you, i'll fight for this, but i'll take it to the

american people and run on this as part of my platform in the election. we do need at least in the short term a major jobs program and it is consistent, entirely consistent, with long-term budget deficit reduction. that's the choice it looks like from what i've heard and from what jessica's reporting, the president is choosing the former. >> well, john fun, let me ask you, is there any area in which the republicans and the president can actually work together? one would think it might be in their own self-interest to get something done and create jobs? >> sure. and i think we can learn from the four previous failed stimulus packages one from president bush, three from president obama. and i think what we can learn is, that the president is getting part of the message. for example, the payroll tax cut. he may, if this report is accurate, actually recognize that the payroll tax cut on employers does retard job creation. that's been something conservatives have been saying for a long time. for the other components, look, the president admitted there were no shovel-ready jobs which was one of the reasons the

stimulus program failed. now apparently he wants to go back and refurbish school buildings, it may be good public policy, but it won't create jobs in the short term. and lastly, job training programs. secretary reich presided over 190 federal jobs programs in the labor department, some may be good, but it doesn't necessarily convince me that any new job training programs that may be unproouchb may really solve problems in the short term. >> robert reich, what do you say to that? >> john fund makes a good point. we've obviously not tackled the jobs problem, it's much bigger than any of us thought, the stimulus program of 2008-2009, it was far too small relative to the size of the falloff that we now know, the consumer demand and the contraction of the economy and plus the fact that states and localities were busy cutting their budgets and cutting their payrolls at the same time. >> are we doomed? are you saying we're kind of doomed to doing nothing until after the election? >> i hope that's not the case,

gloria. i think that the real question is, if the president does anything shouldn't he do something that is up to the size and magnitude of the problem? and if it is up to the size and magnitude of the problem, how in the world does he get it through republican congress except by mobilizing the public, using the bully pulpit and basically rounding up enough votes? i think that is what he needs to do. >> there is one other option. the president has created a lot of uncertainty in the economy, the national federation of independent business, the business roundtable says the single biggest reason we have $2 trillion sitting on the sideline is the regulatory uncertainty, whether it's healthcare mandates or dodd-frank, or other things that people are unsure of what the future will be. >> you can't do it right now -- >> you can. the president can say in addition to the jobs programs and the payroll tax cut, we'll have a regulatory freeze and i'll revisit every one of these regulations.

i'll try to inject some certainty in the economic decision-making problems the companies face. >> what about that? you give a little on regulations? >> well, undoubtedly, you know, we should get rid of regulations that don't work. after we have seen a year of the bp oil spill and mining disasters and wall street, you know, two years ago, three years ago exploding. i don't think we want to get rid of all health, safety, environmental, and small investor regulations. i don't think john is suggesting that -- >> then why mention it? >> let's absolutely get rid of -- >> so you on regulation -- >> wait a minute, if i can just finish the point. businesses are not hiring and they're sitting on $2 trillion of cash because there are not customers. consumers are workers. workers are consumers. if workers are worried about their jobs, if their wages are dropping, if their benefits are disappearing, they're not going to buy. >> bob reich, you'll have to get the last word. robert reich and john fund, thanks very much for being with us tonight. >> thanks, gloria.

and in his new book, dick cheney writes that political battles are messy, shrill and sometimes cruel. next, does his new tell-all go too far? [ male announcer ] you know there are germs on every surface in your mouth. but did you know those same germs can build up and form a resilient layer called biofilm? biofilm germs are strong enough to survive daily brushing. thankfully, there's listerine® antiseptic. its triple-action formula goes deep to penetrate biofilm, kill germs and protect your mouth for up to 12 hours. aaaahhhh... [ male announcer ] for a deeper clean, fight biofilm with listerine®. build an app for the sales team. and see my family while they're still awake. [ male announcer ] with dell global services,

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the latest must read for political junkies is out today. and by mid afternoon, dick cheney's "in my time" already was amazon.com's number two best-selling book behind "the help". by the way, cheney said he wrote it without help from former president bush. >> i did not cooperate or coordinate on our books up. he wrote his book, i wrote my book. i felt strongly that i wanted to write what i remembered about these events. and that's the way both of us functioned. >> and in another interview, cheney predicted his book would have heads exploding all over washington. cnn senior political analyst

david gergen has seen plenty of explosive tell alls during his time, advising four u.s. presidents. david, thanks so much for being with us. are you surprised that former vice-president cheney has written a book with such candor describing how he disagreed on policy with people in the bush administration, criticizing some of his former colleagues? >> i'm surprised -- i'm not surprised at one thing, gloria. i'm not surprised at all that he was candid. dick cheney, that's been his trademark for a number of years and he wanted to tell it straight. i am surprised he took shots at people around high up, condi rice, colin powell, that's typically not done by presidents or vice-presidents. it's not a time for score settling. i think the only thing you can say in his defense is, he had a lot of scores to settle. he's been beaten up a lot.

so i guess there's a reason why liz who worked with him, his daughter, probably persuaded him to do some of that. but i am not surprised at the candor. i'm surprised at the shots. >> let's talk about that score settling for a minute. i want to read you something that he wrote about colin powell. he said, "i was particularly disappointed in the way powell handled policy differences. time and again i heard he was opposed to the war in iraq. indeed, i continue to hear it today. but never once in any meeting did i hear him voice objection. when president bush after his re-election in 2004 accepted powell's resignation, i thought it was for the best". so does colin powell have a right to be pretty upset at dick cheney? >> yeah, absolutely. of course. i mean, he basically -- the vice-president accuses the secretary of state of basically playing outside the lines. and that he was taking his

criticisms to people outside, undermining the president. and from colin powell's point of view, he would interpret that as an accusation of disloyalty. there have been a lot of accusations about colin powell playing sort of on a separate team. but he did have some honest differences. and he did express them to the president on one occasion by colin powell's own account he did go to the president to make an argument about do you really want to do this. but you know, listen, i think this is obviously selling books. there were huge differences tland were some poisonous relationships. it is said that that very close relationship that colin powell once had with dick cheney did deteriorate so badly. >> it isn't only colin powell, for example. he also talked about his policy differences with the president of the united states, particularly regarding the pardon of scooter libby, his former top aide. and we knew that there were differences, but to hear it from dick cheney himself about the

president takes it one step further. i want you to listen to something he said on "the today show" this morning. >> i felt very strongly that scooter was not treated fairly. i don't think an indictment was appropriate. scooter was the one ultimately who was charged not with leaking but with allegations about misconduct during the course of the investigation. so i really think he was badly treated. i thought he deserved the pardon. the president disagreed. >> so is there a difference between a memoir and a kiss and tell? >> gloria on that one i don't think that was kiss and tell. it's been widely known. i think he was being candid about it. let me in full disclosure, i worked closely with dick cheney back in the 1970s in the ford administration, liked him, respected him, and continue to believe that he is an honest man. we have sharp policy disagreements today as we've each gotten older. but i thought that on that one

about scooter libby he just had flat out had a disagreement with the president. he was honest about it. he didn't take any shots at the president. he just said we disagreed. >> but he also recounted a story, david, in which he said that he wanted to bomb syria and everybody else -- nobody else around the table raised their hand. are those kind of discussions things that he ought to be talking about, particularly if the president did not talk about it in his memoir? >> that's an interesting hard question. look, bill safire took me under his wing a long, long time ago and convinced me as a lot of historians have since, that there does come a time for historical purposes when insiders should be permitted and should be encouraged in fact to tell us what happened so historians and others can learn from both mistakes and from triumphs. the issue is not whether you tell the, the issue is how soon do you tell? do you allow a discreet