♪ tonight tonight tonight [ cheers and applause ] >> thank you very much. we begin keeping them honest in egypt where dozens are dead and hundreds are injured after a weekend of bloodshed. the worst violence in egypt since the uprising that toppled president hosni mubarak. all the talk of a peaceful transition to this point, just talk. this is the reality in the new egypt. military tanks running over people there sunday night. clashes between the army and pro-coptic christian protesters turned deadly. 25 people killed, nearly 300 others wounded. coptic christians are an ancient sect that make up 9% of egypt's population. they've faced a lot of violence in the recent months but unclear how the violence started sunday night or who is to blame.

the violence erupted when a group of coptic christians and supporters of their cause were marching toward the egypt state-run television building. military trucks were set on fire. some of the protesters could be seen throwing rocks. the army says some in the crowd had guns and fired on them. yet witnesses say it was the army that fired on the protesters. the stories may be different but no one can deny this. dead bodies in the morgue. the victims of this weekend's clashes. too many victims to refrigerate, so they are kept on ice. this is the reality in the new egypt, again, too similar to the old. once again the government has imposed a curfew from 2:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. the people of egypt still under emergency law, one of the main frustrations they protested eight months ago. the military is not turning the government over to civilians like it promised to do. back then people taking to the streets, climbing up on tanks joyous the mubarak regime was

history. after weeks of protest in cairo's liberation square, the people of egypt were facing a new day, new hopes, new dreams. gone, they thought were the armored personnel vehicles running over people. you remember this? egyptians hope they never see anything like that again. but this past weekend they did. just like during the uprising earlier this year, video is surfacing on youtube. we can't independently verify these videos but we think it's important the world sees what's reportedly going on. we found this video on youtube recorded last week. allegedly shows several members of the egyptian army repeatedly hitting an egyptian christian. he tries to protect his face from the clubbing. we found another shocking video on youtube. we must warn you, it's not easy to watch. we've blurred the worst of it.

this is egyptian singer ramie assam. he says he was beaten in the back in march. the scars on his back prove it. he claims they hit him and others with wooden sticks, metal pipes, hoses, batons and belts. also on youtube. video reported to show egypt police and military forces torturing detainees using tasers on them. men who aren't showing any aggression, yet they are tasered, slapped. this is the new reality in egypt, too similar to the old. here at home, the white house says now is time for restraint on all sides so that egyptians can move forward together and forge a strong, united egypt. just last week defense secretary leon panetta visited egypt and said he had full confidence in its country and people. he had this message. >> it's extremely important for the stability of this region that egypt be able to develop a strong democracy for the future.

and meet the aspirations of the egyptian people. >> what does this latest violence mean for the future of egypt in joining me from cairo are senior international correspondent ben wedeman and state department official anne-marie slaughter and fouad ajami, senior fellow at hoover institution. ben, the most violence in egypt since the revolution. take us back to last night's protests, exactly what happened. >> well, what we understand, john, from eyewitnesses was that this demonstration was approaching the tv building in what has become a hub of a lot of the protests. as they approached the building, men in civilian clothing began to throw rocks at them and then attacked them with machetes and clubs. and then chaos ensued. as we saw on those -- this youtube videos, some military vehicles just drove right into

the crowd. and we did see bodies in the morgues that would indicate that they were in fact crushed by those vehicles. the army has a completely different version of events. they say that some of the protesters attacked military vehicles, stole from them firearms, opened fire on the military and killed at least three soldiers. but all the protesters we spoke to today completely denied that version of events. in fact, at this point -- last night the egyptian state media was saying that three soldiers were killed. now they're stepping back and the military is not saying how many were killed. so it's not at all clear the final result, but what is clear is what has happened is the tensions have really skyrocketed in cairo. the sectarian conflicts are on the minds of many people in the egyptian capital this evening, john. >> i want to note for our

viewers, you are joining us from a skype connection so there's a little bit of a rumble in the audio. it's important we talk to you. why an uptick in violence since the revolution? >> well, many people say -- and certainly the situation on the street seems to confirm it -- that the military council that is essentially the government in egypt simply is incapable of controlling the situation. you have to keep in mind that this is an institution that has no experience whatsoever in running the country. and it seems that the only thing they're good at, as you saw from those videos, is the same kind of repression, the same kind of mindless brutality that, of course, brought the mubarak regime down. john? >> anne-marie, we remember the scenes of the protesters celebrating alongside military. shocking to see eight months later military vehicles running over demonstrators. how much has really changed?

>> as i was watching that i was remembering the demonstrations back in february saying the army and the people are one hand. that was one of the chants of the protesters. well, based on the videos last night, the army and the people were not one hand. the real question, it seems to me is, whether this is is the proof that the revolution really hasn't happened. in other words, that it hasn't changed the power structure or whether what we're watching is a slow motion revolution, where initially they tried to do nothing, then they sacrificed mubarak, created this council, but that's still not going to be enough. we're about to watch the next phase unfold. >> it's a fascinating question. and as we watch the next phase, the prime minister is blaming foreign meddling for these troubles saying "dirty power." that's similar to the language the mubarak regime used when it tried to come to power. >> foreign agents, dirty hand

remnants and we know most of the remnants of the mubarak regime are doing. this is a failure of the egyptian social compact with the muslims and kurds. actually, the way you said it was just right. in the new egypt as in the old, since 1972 there have been 167 major incidents with the muslims and kurds, this is an old story for the egyptians. they better we on watch. they can't offer up the old excuses. >> respect between the people and the military is critical if this is going to work. do the egyptian people still respect their military? >> some segment of the population does. there are egyptians who feel that the military is sort of that last barrier against chaos, and they do support the military. but increasingly we're hearing

both from christians and muslims that the military has failed. it's failed to live up to its promises to democratize the country, to lift the emergency law that's been in place in decades. it's still sending civilians to military trials. there's a feeling that the time has come for these generals to go back to their barracks. they haven't succeeded. it is time for them to go home. >> we knew this wouldn't be easy. when you see these struggles play out, it's the hard truth. but how big of a concern should it be, i think, especially given the military's involvement in violence? >> well, i think, remember, i think ben wedeman had it right. there was a big demonstration recently where people said basically the slogan of the demonstration to the army a, thank you, now go back to your barracks. the problem is you have 24 men. that's the supreme council of the armed forces. they're like the wizard of oz, they're behind the curtain ruling egypt without any responsibility.

so they have their power and no responsibility. then you have this prime minister, a decent man, essam sharaf, who has got the responsibility but he's got no power. the egyptian armed forces have to speed along the transition to a democracy. and they must watch for this schism between the muslims and kurds, they can't tell lies about their country. >> anne-marie, you know historically how egypt is a beacon for the middle east. what a signal it was when mubarak fell across the region. what happens if things stall now and get more difficult and violent? >> even with this violence it has spillover effects, for instance, in syria where the christians have been supporting bashir assad, they're bound to be looking at what's happening now and thinking, that's not a scenario they want. but more broadly, if this revolution were not to be completed, if in fact the military does not relinquish power, then the entire middle east looks different.

because then tunisia has had a successful revolution peacefully and libya has had a successful revolution by armed violence, but everybody else looks at this and thinks, okay, really peaceful demonstrations haven't worked. it's either violence or simply continued oppression by government. so unless egypt can continue its revolution, it really does change the picture in the region. >> fouad, you heard from the defense secretary there, leon panetta talk about how importan it was that egypt get to democracy. it was late but important when the obama administration said mubarak must go. a lot of administrations told mubarak implement democracy, then turned away when he did not. what must the united states do now to keep the heat on the military government? >> well, i think anne-marie has it right. i think what we need, we need to keep the faith in democracy. we can't just simply say because

this incident happened or that incident happened, then the cause for democracy is dead. remember one thing. new year 2011, new year 2011 there was a big arson in the main coptic church in alexandria, the church of st. peter and st. mark. this is not us really just this chaos, old pharaoh himself, hosni mubarak, never took up the question of the challenge of the copts and the place of the copts. egypt is a trend-setter. if egyptian transition fails, they have this region. >> anne-marie, what must other governments, including 9 united states do to make sure -- just to send a clear signal to the military -- do not use any violence, do not use any unrest, do not use any question marks to say we need more time, we need to delay the elections? >> the u.s. military had been pulling out all stops, all contacts back in february with the message that a professional military does not fire on its people. and that has to be the first message that a military of the

caliber of egypt's military or professional military does not turn its guns much less its armored personnel carriers on its own people. that's the first message because the violence has to stop, military on citizens, but then absolutely it has to be, look, you have been the stewards of this transition, but there must be a transition. that's important for egypt. that's important for the entire region. >> ben, often when you have a horrific incident like this, people spend the next day stepping back to try to understand what happened. what has happened here and what should we do about it? in the conversation the day after in egypt, is there a lot of talk will the military delay the elections? >> no, there's no talk that the elections will be delayed. of course, they're scheduled for november. what we are seeing is a lot of egyptians sincerely concerned with this situation, with this violence, and when we were at

this hospital today, the coptic hospital, we did see muslims, muslim women, muslim men coming to give their condolences, to give their sympathy to the people because there is, in fact, a bedrock of national unity here in egypt, but people see these events, this kind of violence and they're worried. they are worried that there will be no winners if there's a sectarian conflict that egyptians have lived together, muslims and christians despite many incidents over the years. by and large they've lived in peace together and many people realize that the alternative to this current situation is much, much worse. there does seem to be a grassroots effort, despite the inabilities or abilities of the government and the military to smooth things over, to calm the situation down because people have seen in iraq and lebanon and elsewhere in the region the price of sectarian civil war is far higher than anybody wants to pay.

>> perfectly put, no winners if this continues. ben wedeman, anne-marie slaughter and fouad ajami, thanks very much. up next herman cain is rising in the polls and the gop presidential candidate also making headlines for his plan he says will fix the u.s. economy. we have the raw politics. plus was the u.s. killing of a u.s. foreign cleric, was it legal? what the u.s. justice memo says about the drone attack. first, though, let's check in with isha sesay. john, we have a special week-long series, bullying, it stops here. listen to what one student faces at school. >> i would get comments like you're a slut, you're fat, you're a whore, you're disgusting. >> no child should hear those words. tonight the groundbreaking results of our study in bullying. why bullies do what they do and what can be done to stop it. that and much more when 360 continues. with advanced power, the verizon 4g lte network makes your business run faster:

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protesters, thousands in new york and across the country have got their anger all wrong. listen to what herman cain said yesterday. >> i don't know where it's going to go but they need to go away. because in my opinion they're focusing on the wrong thing. wall street didn't pass a trillion dollar stimulus bill that didn't work. wall street didn't create these economic policies that are not working. this was done by the white house. they need to be protesting the white house, not wall street. secondly, this is just taking class warfare to another level. that's all it is. class warfare doesn't work. although it will get some people to start to thinking in those terms, but they're protesting against the wrong entity. they didn't pass these ineffective failed policies. >> that's the republican presidential candidate herman cain. so what does he think can be done to fix the u.s. economy? he claims his 999 plan is the answer. here's how he taught touts his plan on his website. >> our tax code is the 21st century version of slavery.

the irs has become the overseer of the american people. in a herman cain administration, april 15th, will no longer be a day to be dreaded. my 999 economic growth and jobs plan is a major step towards tearing the chains off the backs of the american people. >> here's the breakdown on the 999 plan. mr. cain wants a 9% business flat tax, a 9% individual flat tax and a 9% national sales tax. that's not all, he's calling for an end to the payroll tax and estate taxes. his plan would bring in about $1.77 trillion. right now our current tax system brings in more than that. at least 2.16 trillion. so that leaves about an 18 to 20% gap. and that's been met with some criticism on the right and a lot on the left. joining me now cnn political analyst roland martin and erik er erickson. erick let's start with criticism

on the right. some of the toughest criticism has come from fellow conservatives who say not the way to go. why? >> because if the republicans were to pass the 999 plan, they would, in effect, be the party that introduced the national sales tax into the united states. now, the cain campaign says that this is phase 1-a and then 1-b headed to phase two which would be getting rid of the 16th amendment, getting rid of the ability of congress to enact an income tax into a fair tax. but you'd have to have two thirds of both houses of congress and three quarters of the states to get that done. conservatives aren't good at stemming the tide of this. are we going to introduce a national sales tax in addition to an income tax then a business tax, and then if republicans lose control of the wrong or white house, it could go up from there? >> if the federal government suddenly getting 18 to 20% less money, meaning one in five dollars essentially disappears, already we see these guys paralyzed dealing with spending and deficits and priorities. what would they do then?

>> here's what's interesting. herman cain talks about state's rights. if you enact his sales tax, that doesn't mean you totally remove the sales taxes that you see right now in cities, counties and states. and so you're talking about his 9% sales tax plus what you're already paying in the states. it's not like the state governments are going to say, oh, sure, herman cain, great, we'll just give more revenue away. he is not even calculating that particular aspect. but he keeps saying, oh, no, the numbers bear out. i have economists that look it over. who are they, but he won't release their names. how can you talk about being transparent if you can't even give us the names of the people that so-called vetted your plan. >> you say the plan makes no sense. make sense of this. new gallup numbers out reflect what we see in other recent polls. cain has surged right there into the top tier. he's just under former massachusetts governor mitt

romney. is it time for people to stop thinking this is some weird anomaly? >> no. >> no? >> no. because remember michele bachmann surges, ames, iowa straw poll falls back. rick perry, he could be the number one draft pick. he surges, debate, immigration stance, he falls back. the person sitting in a perfect position is mitt romney because in all of these polls he's sitting at the top. also this is the point i keep making. none of this stuff matters. 2007, then senator barack obama was down 30 points to senator hillary clinton at this point. the only thing that matters is what takes place in iowa come january 3rd, new hampshire, south carolina, florida and nevada. and so all of this stuff right now is irrelevant. you still have to run. and it's a lot more time before any of that takes place. >> erick, you often make the case romney just below 30%, that means seven in ten republicans are looking at somebody other than the front-runner.

when you see cain, the third insurgent, roland just went through it, to make a bid for the top spot, doesn't it help romney if the alternative to romney keeps changing? >> very much so. i think mitt romney -- we're back to it being his race to lose. we wonder if it ever was his race to lose. a lot of these candidates don't have money either. to rick perry's credit, he has 15 million cash on hand. mitt romney has more than that. the state races and the state polling that matters right now. iowa, new hampshire, south carolina. the national polling is largely irrelevant right now, beyond those three states, maybe nevada as well. we'll see who lays out the ground game there. i'm not sure cain has laid the ground in iowa. he lost some staffers there. >> right. >> he lost his communications team and some owes. >> also what's really important as well is when you begin to break down part of the problem. romney has an issue when it comes to health care, perry has a problem when it comes to immigration.

so people say, michele bachmann, can she hold it all together? rick santorum, is he more preacher as opposed to politician? cain, really, can you take him seriously? at the end of the day, a campaign is all about finishing. you have to run the race. all this talk right now about who is up, who is down really is irrelevant. it really boils down to just like in sports, look, you can talk about somebody being a great potential pro player. until you start playing the game what you did in college did not matter. once they start running and people start actually voting, that's really what counts. right now it's like a beauty pageant. >> it is like a beauty pageant. >> we're in a marathon right now. >> let me make this point, though. the two guys at the top, romney and herman cain, whether you agree or disagree, they're the two guys who have spent the most time talking about specifics, the number one issue facing voters which would be the economy. >> right. >> that has to have something to do with it. cain is not just a repository. >> right. not only that, john, herman cain has been talking about this race

in a way that the other candidates haven't. including mitt romney to a degree. he's not running against obama as much as he's running for a plan. people know about the plan as opposed to romney's 57 points, perry doesn't have a plan yet. herman cain is running for something. people like to vote for something not against someone. barack obama is still very popular. they have to give people an alternative to vote for something as opposed to a vote against barack obama. >> you don't need to appeal to 50 plus 1%. it is can you pick up a 25% slice. the gop is fractured between your traditional folks economic folks, people more libertarian, social conservatives. everyone has their own candidate. it begins to shake out once you get to november and december. right now all you can do is appeal to 20%. guess what? you'll be sitting in the top of polls. >> then happy new year iowa votes. thanks.

still ahead here, investigating fast and furious. one republican congressman says he's ready to call the attorney general to testify about the botched federal gun running operation. he wants to know who allowed guns to walk over the border to mexico. painful words about a national epidemic. what our investigation found about bullying. >> they physically abused me. emotionally abused me. i admit i had thoughts of suicide in ninth grade. [ bell tolls ]

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coming up, bullying. it's happening even in the best of schools. who are the victims and who are the bullies?

sometimes it's hard to tell. we'll take you inside our six-month look inside the roots of the national epidemic. first, though, isha sesay. >> the head of the house committee investigating fast and furious says he's ready to serve u.s. justice officials with subpoenas. california republican darrell issa says he wants to ask attorney general eric holder when he knew about the botched operation which allowed firearms sold illegally in arizona to cross the border into mexico in hopes of tracing them to drug cartels. a justice department memo makes the case that the controversial killing of u.s. born militant cleric anwar al awlaki was legal. a senior u.s. official told volcano condition the memo determined that even though al awlaki was a u.s. citizen, his al qaeda association made him a lawful target under congressional acts signed after 9/11. the systems that control the u.s. military unmanned drone aircraft have been infected by a virus according to a defense official. no word on how the systems were

infected but the virus has not caused drone flights to be grounded. seven people including a 4-year-old child are recovering today after they were rescued from the waters off the florida keys. they were stranded in the stormy waters for 20 hours. an 80-year-old woman drowned before rescuers could reach her. take a look at this amazing video. it shows one of the famous cornwall cliffs in southwest england crumbling, then crashing more than 150 feet into the ocean. the cliffs have taken a battering from recent storms and rising tides. it really is just incredible. i mean, look at them. >> wow. >> yeah, i know. when i read the story, i was struck by the fact that a local british newspaper quotes a local councilman as saying, eh, these things the happen. just don't sit under the cliffs. >> i'm glad he's low key. mother nature never ceases to amaze. >> indeed. >> this is what we call a segue

in the television business. >> smooth. >> time for the shot. we just showed you crumbling famous rocks, tonight we give you, squirrels, crashing the national league playoffs. apparently they wanted in on the action as the cardinals and the phillies battle it out. this little guy scampered on to the field in the bottom of the sixth inning on friday. that game in philadelphia. two days earlier, boom, this critter made a dash across home plate. i think he was safe. we got it in slow-mo. look at that. not clear if it's the same squirrel or a copy cat. next day, next day -- are we ready, guys? also in st. louis. right there across the infield. >> i can only assume there's some kind of squirrel hot spot across the field or something. >> the one that was going out at the end was going straight to the beer stand. all right. don't go anywhere. >> i'm here. >> the squirrels, our beat 360

winners. it's our daily challenge to viewers, a chance to show up our staff to come up with a better caption than we post on the blog every day. tonight's photo, i love this, sir paul mccartney and nancy shevell shortly after exchanging marriage vows yesterday in london. our staff winner tonight is sean. his caption, her name was magill and she called herself lil but everyone knew her as nancy. sorry, even isha didn't like that one. she's usually kinder than that. our viewer winner, i love this, too, phillip. his caption, wedding knight. he should get a drum roll or something. >> something. but here's the thing. doesn't sean pick the winners? >> wow. a little insight there. look at that. >> i'm just saying. if sean picks the winners and he's the winner. >> one of those voices in my head saying that tomorrow foreman approved it.

>> sounds sketchy to me. >> it is very, very sketchy phillip, despite the inside gym being rigged, your beat 360 t-shirt is on the way. a stunning look at the roots of bullying. the results of an important "360" study. how different are victims and their tormenters. for you parents who think it couldn't happen in your kid's school, listen to this. >> no matter what high school you go to, what age you are, what social group you're in, you've been bullied and you are a bully. you're never going to stop being bullied ever. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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all this week on "360" we're looking at an epidemic we've

been reporting on for a year now. bullying in schools. what about the solutions? in an effort to stop the crisis we set out to find how and where it starts. who are today's bullies and what's driving their anger? to learn more "360" partnered with two of the leading experts in the field and one very courageous school for a hard look at the roots of bullying. here's anderson with some very surprising results. >> i would get comments like, you're a slut, you're fat, you're a whore, you're disgusting. >> reporter: bridget is a junior at the wheatley school on long island, new york. it's ranked as one of the top high schools in the entire nation where everyone graduates and 99% of kids go on to college. but like most schools it has a bullying problem. is this a problem? is bullying a problem? >> yes. >> definitely. >> they physically abused me, they mentally abused me, emotionally abused me. i'll admit i had thoughts of suicide in ninth grade. >> reporter: "360" teamed up

with a group of sociologists for a six-month pilot study at the wheatley school. find out the prevalence of bullying and find out why it happens. the results stunned all ourself. but first, how we got them. sociologist robert faris and diane felmlee designed the pilot study surveying kids throughout the semester. they were asked 28 specific questions like did a student at your school pick on you or do something mean to you. did you pick on or do something mean to another student in your school. >> we want you to be as honest as possible. >> reporter: kids were given a roster of the entire school where every student had an i.d. number and they were asked to write down who did what. their answers offer a glimpse into a world that most adults couldn't comprehend. >> they told everyone i was gay. >> it couldn't help the pain i went there through. >> punched, kicked. >> depressed and isolated. i hate everyone at this school. >> they can't do anything

because bullying can't be stopped. >> reporter: victims of bullying are never hard to find. it's the bullies themselves who have in the past have been so elusive to researchers. why are they so aggressive? how do they choose their victims? our study not only found them, but answered many of those questions. >> i for years bullied a kid and made him feel bad. i feel terrible. i try to stop myself from bullying. >> i will show her the meanness i have bottled up. >> i made fun of four students. no consequences. >> teenagers are all insecure. we compensate by being mean and sizing ourselves up to other teenagers. >> reporter: the biggest shock? the study found that bullies or what the sociologists term aggressors, are often also victims. the aggressive behavior is part of what he calls social combat. >> we found that social status in the school hierarchy really promotes bullying and aggression.

they tend to have a higher risk of victimization as well as a higher risk of becoming aggressive. >> reporter: we assembled a panel of students who were ranked as either top aggressors, top victims or both at the same time. do you think the lines are really drawn? do you think somebody is an aggressor and somebody is a victim or do you think it crosses over? >> everyone is a bully and everyone's a victim. >> reporter: everyone's a bully? >> like you have bullied, i've bullied, josh has bullied, andrea you bullied. whether you know it or not, you've bullied someone. >> andrew, what do you -- how do you see yourself 1234 do you think you bullied? do you think you're a victim? where do you see yourself in all of this? >> you definitely do bully some people and at some state you do get bullied as well. it's definitely like both. >> no matter what high school you go to, what age you are, what social group you're in, you've been bullied and you are a bully. you are never going to stop being bullied ever. >> reporter: some of their experiences are heartbreaking. josh says his two best friends

turned on him in ninth grade to boost their own social status. the abuse got so bad he contemplated suicide. did anyone know that you were having these thoughts and that you were thinking about suicide? >> no, i never told anyone. >> it's such a lonely feeling. >> it is. and i felt betrayed. i felt -- i felt awful. >> bridget says she was torment so much about her weight, she developed an eating disorder. >> it starts to build up and bad things start to happen. whether you start cutting yourself, you kill yourself, you develop an eating disorder, it becomes obsessive. >> despite their tragic stories, you might be surprised to learn that they weren't just ranked add victims. i'll give you envelopes. in each is your ranking. i'll ask you individually to open it up and take a look. and if you feel comfortable tell us your results. >> i got top 5% of aggressor and victim. >> does that surprise you to be in the top five aggressor group. >> this is interesting to find out this is what my school

thinks of me. >> yeah. >> oh, jesus. i got top 5% of victims and top 20% of aggressors. >> reporter: in fact, 56% of wheatley students we surveyed were either aggressors, victims or both. the school district takes the issue very seriously, with anti-bullying programs that start in kindergarten and continue through senior year. >> something said in the hallway gets posted electronically. >> reporter: the wheatley principal sean feeney recognizes he has a problem on his hands. >> every high school has to deal with bullying, every high school has to deal with drugs and alcohol. this is not a sort of, well, we can't do anything about it, but we don't want to be blind to the fact that just because we are in an absolutely wonderful school district, kids don't have a pass on those just because they're affluent and high achieving. >> even in this school of affluent high achieve hes, where

parents are heavily involved, more than 80% of incidents were never reported to an adult. the results of this study in the suburb of new york mirror faris' original study on this issue administered to thousands of teens in rural north carolina. the geography and demographics couldn't be more different, and still -- >> the patterns were still strikingly similar. these are different communities. what it suggests to us is these kind of behaviors arise in a wide range of schools across the country regardless of the particular community makeup. >> reporter: meaning the intensity and causes of bullying at wheatley are likely the same in high schools across america. up next, more on the social combat your kids are probably facing at their school. it's a battle very few escape. anderson sits don with the author of the study who you just saw in his report. i'm making my money do more. i'm consolidating my assets.

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has trusted nationwide for more than 30 years. nationwide is on your side. will be giving away passafree copies of the alcoholism & addiction cure. to get yours, go to ssagesmalibubook.com. back now with more on our bullying study. the effects on victims are often devastating. can lead to eating disorders, self-mutilation, even suicide. that's why it surprised us to learn that some of these same victims are bullies themselves. doctors call it a social combat a constant battle of taunts, cyber attacks or abuse to be the top dog at school. to find out more, anderson sat down with two leading experts on bullying. robert faris, the co-author of the study, and rachel simmons, the author of the book "odd girl out."

>> this whole notion of social combat, it kind of defies conventional wisdom. >> a lot of these aggressive behaviors are rooted in the desire for status. it's about climbing these social hierarchies. kids are doing mean things to each other and sometimes in quite cold blooded fashion. they're doing it online. it can be quite strategic. it is not always emotional reactive kind of aggression that people are sort of used to -- >> so it's not necessarily something that's coming out of their home life or family life or some emotional disturbance in their head. it is actually a response to where they are in the social order and they're trying to move up by putting somebody else down or by knocking somebody else down who is a little higher up than they are. >> absolutely. we see both kinds. there are kids who have severe psychological issues and they do take it out on the vulnerable kids in school, the kids who are have violated some sort of social code. but the much more common in our

research is this more tactical aggression that's acuring among kids that are quite popular. not necessarily the most popular but just in the middle of the social hierarchy. >> you say challenging this notion of the schoolyard bully is important. >> it is. because so much of bob's research is about that most of the bullying is psychological now. this idea of the guy who is kicking your butt and taking the lunch money is outdated. we need to understand that so much of this is indirect aggression, it's beneath the radar. there's a culture of day-to-day victimization that may not rise to the level of bullying but that still is eroding the fabric of our schools. >> a culture of victimization. >> right. a day-to-day thing. one of bob's findings is that the research is showing there's so much aggression on a day-to-day basis. it doesn't necessarily mean that it's always an extreme situation. but every day a significant percentage of kids are engaging in aggression. >> aggression and victimization

it increases the how you get into the social order until a certain point. explain that. >> what we found was this interesting pattern that as kids are increasing in social status, both their aggressive behaviors and their victimization rates increase until they get very close to the top, say the 90th percentile. then after that it begins to plummet. a small number of kids who are above the fray and not being picked on and not picking on kids, on average. >> some of that has to do with the age and what grade they're in. by 12th grade you're finding less of that because kids are kind of focused on what's coming next. >> they're on the future. they're looking forward to college or jobs and whatnot. the high school status game starts to seem a little meaningless. it's unfortunate that other kids aren't seeing that earlier on. because it's really tragic. these kinds of behaviors, even these small incidents that we're talking about actually do have long-term consequences for victims.

they increase their depression, their anxiety levels, they lose attachment to school and they become more marginalized. it does have tremendous effects on victims even though it may not seem -- it's so common it may not seem serious at the time but a kind of constant erosion. >> it's also true that this behavior peaks around eighth grade, i think that's what you found. because they're so desperate to fit in. middle school is a time when you're obsessed with being accepted. you have to take those developmental norms into account when we talk about other interventions. >> something that interested you was about gender. that girls, they are just as aggressive? >> i think girls get the short end of the stick here. they are bullied more, they're harassed more. you found that girls harass girls more. boys harass girls more. i don't think there's a single statistic other than physical and verbal aggression where girls don't come out ahead at the leaders of the pack in terms of victimization. >> in terms of victimization but

also in terms of bullying? >> bullying as well. we find that girls cyberbully too more than boys. i think some of this comes down to the fact that -- if we talk about cyber bullying, if you think about girls and what they do on the playground, they talk. and boys tend to play games. that's what happens online. when girls go online they talk and that leads to more gossip and more bullying. >> this study was based on an earlier and much larger study you had done in a very different area, and different kinds of schools than wheatley, and the results were similar. >> that was amazing to me. i thought these were general processes, but so great to see what we are talking about is something that's not typical of one community or one type of school. that this is a very common behavior that we see in rural north carolina. we see it in rich, affluent suburbs of long island. so it means that we do need to be having a national conversation about it. >> bob and rachel, thanks. >> thank you. >> this special study is part of

our joint effort with facebook and the cartoon network and time incorporated. be sure to join anderson for an encore presentation of his town hall, bullying, it stops here. that's at 8:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. eastern. still ahead, new details of the last moments of the former apple ceo steve jobs. the official cause of death when 360 continues. we're america's natural gas

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360 business bulletin. the nba has cancelled the first two weeks of the regular season because the collective bargaining agreement has not been reached with the player's association. the owners want cost-cutting help from the players after the league said it lost up to $300 million last season. a major sticking point. the owners rejection of a player's union's call for an average salary of $7 million. the current average salary is $5 million. public health officials in california report that steve jobs died of respiratory failure, brought on by a pancreatic tumor. apple employees say they'll celebrate his life on october 19th. despite harsh criticism from republicans, the occupy wall street movement in new york is still moving. kids speak out day. tomorrow they'll take their